I had posted here earlier, but it looks like my thread was deleted. I'm a 39-year old woman with two wonderful kids, age 6 & 4. We have been together 11 years, married for 10. My husband had been changing over the past several years when his career failed to advance to his satisfaction - we are both scientists - even though he seemed to sabotage himself when it came to picking projects and team members. From that, he turned to religion, although he was a staunch agnostic (more atheist than anything) when we met. His religion fever led him to some online forums, where he met a 20-something woman with a kid and an addiction, and they had an emotional and physically affair. It started in March 09, went to the beginning of May 09, and he told me about it in June 09. To be honest, my husband had strayed so far from the person I fell in love with, it felt like a relief to find out. I still cry for the person I loved, but it's more of a grief. It feels like the person I married is dead and the person who replaced him is a wing nut.

Having a sudden "awakening" or whatever he called it, he thought he wasn't leading a godly life, confessed everything to me, turned to his extended family, who are supporters of this site, and tried to repair our marriage. It didn't work, and I filed for divorce October 28, 2009. His aunts, uncles, and cousins have been trying to contact me to change my mind, as well as him, but the person he is now is not the person I married, and not a person I want in my life.

My MIL loves her son but is currently planning an intervention for him, they hope to do it in the next two weeks. Why? My MIL was spending time with the grandkids, when my daughter told her that the "President is nasty." Why my MIL asked what that word meant and where did she hear it, it became clear that my husband has been spouting conservative propaganda bull around my children, and that what he was saying was "the president is a nazi." I cannot tolerate this hate speech around my children, and my MIL is disgusted by what her son has become.

But I wanted to post this to explain that he used a lot of ideas from this site and instead of making me turn to him, it drove me even further away. We had considered marital counseling, but the concepts that he wanted to use were so wacky, that I thought that we weren't even on the same page. Again, let me express that my husband went from a smart scientist with a dry wit and a skeptical mind to a self-help, bible-thumping Glen Beck loving weirdo over the past 3 years. I've looked through the threads, and it's nice to see that people can make it through infidelity, but I wanted to put together a list of why this site can do just the opposite.

Before I start though, I don't want it to appear that I have a vendetta against this site or its principals. It's just a list for others to understand that if you don't agree with basic principles, there can be no reconciliation. Like, if you and your spouse both believe in love banks, then you can negotiate a way to make it work. The idea of a love bank is as made-up as the tooth-fairy is to me.

1. There is no such thing as a love bank.

This was a major deal-breaker for me when my husband starting talking this way. It was insulting to me, and the relationship we had that he wanted to make love a commodity that had actions like deposits and withdrawals. I am not sure if he saw our children as dividends or a case of usury. In any case, the more he talked about banks, the more it felt like CNBC.

2. Love is a verb, not a noun.
As my husband wanted to reconcile, he would talk about how he would try to fall back in love with me. It was another sad moment because he kept seeing love as a thing and not something that you do. You can't be in love, far from love, near love, it's not a thing. It's what you DO. And what he did was another woman.

3. Radical honesty after the fact is meaningless..and tiresome.

Since my soon to be ex-husband and I are both scientists, we live in a world of facts. But when he wanted to tell me all the details of his affair, I didn't want to hear them, I'm not a masochist. He didn't want to tell me to make me feel better, he just wanted someone else to share his pain. I walked out of the room when he started to talk about it, and I'm not that curious. Honesty doesn't occur in the past tense.

4. Plan A done by a WS is insulting to the BS.

If you care about your spouse, you don't cheat on them. To try to edit that after the infidelity is not useful at all.

5. Political tirades are not relationship talk.

Let me start by saying this, my husband and I were both very liberal and agreed to raise our children this way before they were born, without religion, without small-minded prejudices, and with social justice approaches. We talked about this a lot, and were in agreement with almost everything. But over the past years, my husband morphed into someone who mouthed all sorts of racist and religious propaganda. I think the MB site supports conservative values, and that's not a problem. But imagine if your conservative spouse suddenly was doing everything opposite of what they claimed to believe. Before the affair, or at least when I think it started, he kept trying to get me to go to a church couples retreat. The reason I resisted is because it was a church that explicitly condemned the homosexual lifestyle, and my brother is gay.

I also had a huge fight with my husband when my daughter came home crying, saying that her uncle was (according to her daddy) "going to hell." The fight I had with my husband over that was that he was making my daughter cry - with images of her uncle burning - but he wanted to have a discussion on the political factors of gay rights. It was sickening.

Again, I wanted to say that it seems that this site helps a lot of people. But I wanted to let people know that sometimes this site can be a complicating factor in ending it, although - let's be honest - it's my relationship with my husband that truly ended it.

There were some comments the first time I posted that it sounded like I was eager to get out of my marriage bc I had someone else on the line or that I seemed cold. I have done so much crying over the past year, that I think I am out of tears. My husband was once of very promising, capable scientist. He's got a shrine with religious figures, quotes, and Bibles now, with a spotlight one them (wtf?). If my old husband saw what he is now, he would laugh or throw up, probably both. I'm not looking for any romantic relationships other than the one with myself that eliminates this stranger in my life. I read up on how people feel like their spouses have been taken over my aliens. I can say that's one thing that MB really helped me with; my husband has been taking over by UFOs.

I could not see one single thing in your post that would make it the fault of MB that your marriage could not be recovered. The fact is that as a BS, YOU had the right to end the marriage. YOU had the right to know what details you did and did not want to know about the affair. I cannot imagine anyone here encouraging your WH to FORCE those details upon you.

I was married for 26 years to a man who went the opposite direction as what he had promised to me. So I understand the sickening feeling of knowing you are married to someone you didn't agree to be married to. When I found out about my WH's affairs I practically fell on my knees thanking God for giving me the Gift of Clarity that allowed me to walk away and not look back.

I hope you find peace and happiness with or without a man who shares your values.

I'm sorry for your situation but, as a scientist, I hope you won't mind me trying to poke a few holes in your theory.

Love Bank: If you were married to a man, say 10 years, you're walking along a lake, and you see a little boy trip over a rock and start crying, and your H rushes over to him while others just stand there, and he comforts the boy until his mom gets there, and you feel a gush of warm fuzzies for your H, at how kind and considerate he is...that is filling your Love Bank for him. Say you then walk on further, and he gets hit on the leg by a youth's frisbee; he gets mad because it hurts, so he grabs the frisbee and tosses it way out into the lake so the kid can't have it anymore...his rudeness and insensitivity just drained your Love Bank a little.

It's not a physical thing. It's an accumulation of how you feel about your spouse. It's called a bank cos you're always making deposits or withdrawals, based on how you act - how your personality causes you to act.

Love/verb. Actually, I'm at a loss. I don't recall MB ever saying that love is a noun. It always talks about how you have to do, not be.

Radical honesty is used in terms of not living a duplicitous life. For instance, if your husband visits his family every single Sunday, and it hurts you to see him choose them over you, you owe him radical honesty in telling him so, so that you don't wait so long that you fall out of love with him. What your husband did wasn't radical honesty, so you can't use that as evidence that it is wrong.

Plan A is a way of life - choosing to be the best, most helpful, least harmful person you can be. It has nothing to do wiht having an affair; the MB material says the BS should use Plan A to get the WS to want to stop choosing the affair partner. It's not a get out of jail free card for the WS. So, once again, you are using the terms incorrectly; thus your theory is inccorect.

Relationship talk - Obviously, your talks with your H are in no shape or form any kind of relationship talk. Therefore, they have nothing to do with MB, do they? So your theory honestly has nothing to do with the MB program.

You really did get screwed with this guy. I'm sorry he snapped. Sorry he got sucked up into the brainwashing - my brother and SIL are both 'converts' to people like Hannity and Beck, and I no longer recognize them, either; I have to listen to crap about socialism and not born in America and his secret agenda to bankrupt America and his father's a Muslim extremist...all that jazz from two very intelligent, very educated adults; I'm speechless around them because it's like they've suddenly gotten brain transplants; but it gives them some sense of belonging, I guess.

Anyway, I know how frustrating it can be. But I think you got it right, that he simply is no longer the man you married. It would be impossible to achieve anything logical with him; therefore, MB of course wouldn't work, until the brainwashing tendencies - be it a single lifestyle, religion, ultraconservatism, or belief in faeries - go away.

Bottom line, if your H hadn't gone down that path - hadn't had a need for belonging to something such as ultraconservatism or super deep religion - there's a good chance you could have gotten rid of the affair and gotten your H back, using MB practices.

Finally, I would take you back to your first paragraph, where you say he sabotaged himself at work. You should know, of course, that this highlights a deeper issue in him. It would have been religion, politics, any of a number of ways he was searching for meaning that he could have chosen to self-destruct.

I know you need to find a villain in this, and MB is a good target. That's cool. But I hope you'll do some further introspection, and maybe learn a little more about who your H was - childhood, subconscious, all that stuff, that created who he is, that contributed to his actions, and not pin it on something as ethereal as MB. Because my hope is that you learn how to deal with him better, maybe even save him from this self-destructive path, so that he can become a better dad for his kids.

The fact that he was making withdrawals by "educating" you instead of doing the work is telling here. Harley isn't the only one to talk about an emotional love bank. Stephen Covey, author of Seven Habits of Highly Effective People talks about a love bank in this NY Times Best Seller list book.

Talk's cheap cause everyone can do it; and notice it's all about him. Him falling back in love with you - not winning your love back.

Mental masturbation disguised as radical honesty is repulsive. And this is the biggest clue as to the depth or lack of depth your WH delved into Harley's methods. Your husband was reliving his drunken "high" with OW by "disclosing" it to you. He was not following Marriage Builders one bit on this one.

Plan A by a WS has to be done anyway; it might not be useful to the betrayed spouse. The betrayed spouse is not obligated to forgive or take an unrepentant wayward back. But Plan A helps the wayward recover himself; somehow I don't think your husband really did a true plan a, as indicated by some of the other things you shared. Not even a half-baked plan a.

Another area where it's all about him, his passions, his interests. Does he even know anymore what you are interested in?

From what you've shared, your husband is off the deep end and has no comprehension about what Marriage Builders is all about. Kind of like the sales guy who read the parts of "How to Win Friends and Influence People" that gave him the 'language' of the process, but not the heart of the process.

Kind of reminds me of a few "participants" on these discussion boards who use Marriage Builders as a way to manipulate their spouses. I recall one guy here complaining about his wife on a number of points about his emotional needs not getting met, all the while, he has secret email accounts and is discovered to have been nurturing some extracurricular relationships. He wasn't here to learn how to better meet his wife's emotional needs or stop lovebusting by stopping his selfish demands.

And that's where I see things haywire for you. You have not experienced Marriage Builders. And frankly, I think you've done the right thing for you and your children. If your husband was truly remorseful and repentant he wouldn't be trying so hard to get YOU to meet his emotional needs. He's still an alien.

I agree with the above posters about the original posters misplacing blame for the disintegration of her marriage on MB.

But I'm really getting tired of seeing the political mudslinging that goes on, not only here--but everywhere.

I'm a Conservative but I would never dream of labeling a more liberal person a "leftie loonie" and it bothers me when I hear that coming from my right-leaning counterparts. Conversely, I hate the term "wing-nut" as well as all the others that the left so liberally applies to the right.

Like so many of my conservative friends, I could care less what people do in the privacy of their own bedrooms. I recognize that everyone is entitled to an opinion and that I am equally entitled NOT to have that opinion FORCED on me. I want the Government out of my private affairs and away from my wallet. I am an adult, perfectly capable of finding my own healthcare, making my own banking decisions and raising my own children. I don't need a Village.

I think Obama is horrendously UNqualified to do the job for which we elected him. I am counting the days until I can do my part to vote him OUT of office. I am praying that the mid-term elections wash most of the incumbents out of office. But I still respect the OFFICE of the President of the United States and until Obama is no longer in that office, I will accord him the respect that goes with that elected position.

If I may make one generalization here, it's that I find the left is really quick to label and condemn the right for being unAmerican when, if you look at who really wants to defend the Constitution as it was written (and as it has withstood the test of time!), it is mostly the left-leaning liberals.

And yes, I live in Massachusetts, the King of the Nanny-state definition.

My 2 cents here...

When a person changes that much... their core belief system, their values, their view of the world... and their spouse doesn't "buy into" those same beliefs, values and world views... then the spouse is often dumped for another mate who shares these same views.

My WH went from ultraconservative, mainstream Catholic to the Law of Attraction, The Secret and seeking riches through "putting it out to the Universe."

And he shares these views with the OW. They bonded over the concepts of avoiding negative (honest) people, not worrying about money (ignoring financial fundamentals like paying back loans) and living for today (no afterlife).

I'm just saying that regardless of the direction -- right, left, up, down, middle -- when a spouse takes a RADICAL shift in their beliefs, no MB principles can work.

Anything coming from the BS is bounced right back. I listened to his new views. I read passages from the books he brought home. I kept my "negative" comments to myself.

But when these changes are so different from what we agreed upon and LIVED during our dating and married days -- day in and day out for over 30 YEARS -- it's hard to accept that he's changed. And when you have kids living at home who are influenced by their parents' beliefs and values -- then something's gotta give.

MB taught me to stand my ground. To not give into his new beliefs because that is part of the fantasy. He's an alien. And if that is the new him and he has no interest in reconcilliation, then no MB principles would apply. If he had changed from liking chocolate ice cream to vanilla, I can live with that. But when he doubts the existance of God and spouts concepts that are destructive to our finances, then something is really, really wrong besides him having an A.

I went for an early morning hike since the kids are with their alien dad, and I really thought about what I have been reading here and the responses.

What I realize is that - like what others have posted - it's not MB that he was doing, but he kept referring to this site as though it were a golden egg. It's also like the religion he's taken up. Before he got involved in this weird church, we used to talk at length about how religion could be good, even if we didn't believe they were true.

For example, the stories about Jesus and helping the poor and standing up for Mary Magdalen bc she was a woman who enjoyed sex and causing a ruckus with the money changers all seemed to have morals that we agreed with. Also, when our kids were younger, we would tell them stories from the Jewish religion, Hindu, Muslim, so they knew that even though many people may believe different things, they all want to do good.

It's like he's warped a good thing. What is it, a hammer can be used to build a house or break a skull? He's taken a tool (religion / politics) that didn't have a big place in our life and now made it monstrous.

One thing that writing this out is that I realize I will do whatever it takes or cash out all of my stocks to pay for lawyer's fees in the custody agreement to prevent our kids being exposed to this church and their beliefs. Has anyone had a similar situation?

I agree that if it wasn't politics or religion my soon-to-be-ex-husband would have most likely been something else that would have filled that empty space for him, the same way the affair did. I still don't agree with a lot of the ideas on this place, but it does seem useful. However, it's like he took it and made it suit his needs.

And for a quick note: I'm not - in principle - opposed to conservative values...it's just become a lightening point in my life and my kid's lives. We used to be parents who brought the kids to anti-war protests when they were babies. Now my husband has this weird bloodthirsty attitude around him. Well, actually, I don't know what he's been doing, I have just cut everything related to him outside of my life except where it relates to my kids, and the intervention my MIL is going to do.

YES! I completely understand! It's the radical change that belies everything that came before. If we were conservative and he went to ultra-liberal, I think I'd be having the same reaction. It's as though some people just abandon what they once believe bc it doesn't fit into their needs. Which, the more I think about it, is whatever justifies their cheating, affairs, and skewed beliefs.

I really don't even recognize this person that I married. What breaks my heart, more than the divorce, is that my children might never know how smart and quirky their father could be. It's getting to the point where his mother, my mother-in-law is worried about him, he's changed so much.

THIS will be valuable to you in a custody fight.

It doesn't sound like you two should be married. And for the reasons mentioned, some of which sound like surface manifestations of deeper problems, and those deeper problems themselves.

It sounds to me that one thing you have in common is that you're both very judgmental about others, dogmatic in your views, uncommunicative with each other and apparently unwilling to think creatively about compromise. Because your husband had an affair, you have no obligation to forgive him, and that's something a mature individual (which it sounds doubtful he his) should have accepted before "clearing his conscience" by confessing. Confession can be a good tonic for the soul, but you have to accept that there can also be consequences for it. That even if your beliefs teach you that god will forgive you if you are truly contrite, people might not. Your wife especially might not.

With all this talk of "wing-nuts" and "Nazis," and accusations about who is and who isn't promoting propaganda, it sounds like there's more than enough "hate speech" to go around. Your husband's problem doesn't sound like religion or conservative politics so much as the immature and dogmatic versions of these things that he's embraced. Though middle-of-the-road politically myself, it seems to me that the positive forms of conservatism or religion teach people, among other things, to watch what they say around children, treat others around them with consideration and respect, and to indeed put others before oneself.

This is actually pretty much the same thing that liberal thinking in its positive form teaches, and there's no reason a mature liberal person and a mature conservative person shouldn't agree more than disagree about behaving appropriately in family settings. Debating and disagreeing about politics, when done by mature adults, can actually be informative and stimulating instead of a cause of hard feelings. I've known plenty of couples on different ends of the political spectrum, and with a little good humor and good behavior, it's no problem at all. Obviously there are things that shouldn't be said around young children (something it sounds like your husband doesn't get), but exposing children to diverging points of view and teaching them to question single-perspective thinking is not necessarily a bad thing. That's something I'd think a scientist would agree with.

I will say that if you'd perhaps been more supportive and understanding about your husband's spiritual interests, you possibly could have influenced the shape they eventually took so that they might have actually benefited you. A big part of most religions is responsibility, honesty, and loyalty, and if you could "speak his language" a little bit, you might be surprised by what that could get you. It sounds, however, that you are rigidly opposed to religion because you think it conflicts with a rational, scientific worldview--something which a great many scientists, some of them very important scientists, would disagree with. An interest in spirituality is not in and of itself pathological--in fact, it's a big part of life for perhaps the majority of human beings and always has been, and for plenty of scientists as well. It sounds, however, that your husband has allowed his private spiritual journey to negatively affect others, especially his wife. At the same time, it doesn't sound like either of you has a history of communicating with the other that would allow you to shape events rather than be controlled by them.

Sorry, but this is a deal breaker for me.

I think this is pretty harsh to put on this BS at this point. Honestly I think that his radical shift in values is the biggest problem. To me she doesn't come across as so much anti-religious as she does anti radical religion. The WH changed all the rules. I believe homosexuality to be a sin, but I would NEVER tell my child that his father's gay relative was going to burn in hell. That is sick. There is a way to express your values to a child without the hatred.

I share the views expressed above about the topic but i will share a similar experiance.

My late wife belonged to a born-again church. When i met her she wasn't attending but she would quote the bible a lot. She was very intellegent but had a drinking problem. The belief in God and accountability and her alcoholism did not gel with me. If she was truly free from sin then why did she still drink? She explained it as being a "backslidden christian" To me it was bullcrap.
I had been brought up christian but was not attending church either at the time. I was not as familiar with the bible as my wife was and I was intrigued by the wisdom. I wanted to explore what the scriptures said. I did not take the time to get into the word of God prior to this and I knew there was wisdom in the words.

It became apparent after some time that she would go into a cycle of drinking and then what she called rebound. I hated her church and what they had taught her blaming the church for her behavior. If I was going to convince my wife to stop drinking so we could live in the real world or even have a chance for a healthy life I was at war with this escapism she lived in.

As time went by I realized the church did not approve of her behavior and it was she who lived in denial. I could only hope that someone she respected would step up and straighten her out. She kept waiting for God to deliver her and never would seek treatment for her problems with substance abuse. The church Pastors would only cite that Gods mercys were new every morning an that We are a new creation. All truths taken out of context and denying the fact that people could only change if they were truly repentant from thier actions. Nothing I could do would ever get her to stop drinking and the more I let myself be part of her life the worse it seemed to get.

It wasn't Gods fault or even the churchs fault that she had a problem. She had chosen to live the way she did and use the "grace of God" card when it suited her. Instead of the christian beliefs, (which I believe in), being a way for us to grow closer together that reason for her to justify her drinking binges drove her into more unhealthy thinking and caused the rest of her family pain. I sought out help from alanon and every source I could to deal with this issue. I believe in reality.

I also have a respect for science and test off the charts for apptitude. I have held many positions and achieved much success in different fields. Before I met my wife I was considered to be destined for great accomplishments. If I had just been smart enough to make the money and take the children away from her till she got her head straight maybe i would not have watched us all suffer from the insidiuos behavior of alcoholism. What I did instead was teach my children to not run away from truth. They believe in God but they all have thier feet on the ground. They loved thier Mom and understand she had problems. They are probably the most liberal people anyone will ever meet but still are responsible and realistic.

The things that are being said to your children are unhealthy for even adults. The office of the president is to be respected and even if I don't agree with him, ( I didnt vote for him my kids did tho), I respect him and will honor his position. I consider myself a christian and I am searching to grow every day. The words we use are the most important tools we have for relationship. Communication in truth and love being the building blocks.

Something to think about. When Jesus was asked about what foods we should eat reguarding cleanliness he said "Its not what goes into your mouth, but what comes out of it that defiles you"

We all know that there are healthy and unhealthy foods. Christ was teaching us about relationship. To me thats what the bible is for. To teach us how to love one another. Any so-called church that teaches hate will reap what they sow.

I see so much good advice above here that I really don't have anything more to add. They really did a good job and have much more experiance with this kind of issue. I just wanted to help you see that people who have strong beliefs in Christ are realists. Thier are many false prophets out there seeking to line thier pockets and also some just mislead.

Protect your children and take care of yourself. You sound like an awesome gal