First for both of us.

Yes, both are normal.

If that is the reason, I did not cause it. And it makes me feal resentment.

It's either this, or she is thinking about how disgusting she finds me. Either way it destroys my ego every time.

Attempting to get my #1 need met causes me pain now. To avoid that pain I have stopped trying to get this need met for now. Eventually this will either change, or something else will give.

Mel,

NO!!!! I've never said I spend less than 15 hours. It's more like 17+ hours together. I know what you are saying about being averse to it, but if the S doesn't care about MB and its principles your at an impass. I totally know what you are saying from the get go. I come her to vent and find comfort that me wanting sex more than 1 time every 3 weeks is not perverted. This board has helped me understand that I've done a lot for my marriage while S has sat back and enjoyed the ride.

And another thing Mel, I don't even know you and I'm married so I don't think there's a snowballs chance in hell I'll have or want SF with you.-joke

Please keep it coming I feel a breakthrough!!!

Mel,

No didn't go to MB weekend. W was opposed to it, we've done weekend to remember and tons of other "programs" I come back here because she felt MB was the closest to our values without some new age mumbojumbo.

Gacks last statement hits home. It causes pain to try to get SF EN met and I mostly avoid it now, something will give, our M or her ego.

Let me say first is that my personal belief is that porn is wrong in a marriage because of the Biblical lusting after someone else stuff.

But here's the magic question I have always wanted to ask:

Your S doesn't want SF. Porn is wrong. Do-it-yourself is not healthy for the marriage. Neither are "small appliances." You are working MB the best way a normal and fallible human can. It's already been 6 months and you think you might explode before you make it another six.

What do you do???? I have never seen anyone on any board answer that bottom line question. I see lots of stuff about improving marriages, resentment, aversion, etc. But nobody tells the starving spouse what to do. Just suck it up? That seems to be the message, and I am not just talking here. Everywhere I read, when someone boaches this subject, the unspoken answer seems to be just do without. How does that jive with MB?

I promise I am not being cantankerous. I really do want to know. I have read so many if you do a+b you will ALWAYS get c. What happens if you don't get c?

I would try and get her to go. It is a cut above ANYTHING out there. Even Retrouville counselors go there for their OWN marriages. The difference between this one and the others is that this one actually works. Most couples who do go contain at least one reluctant spouse. And you don't just go and then forget about it.

They assign you a personal coach who follows your WEEKLY PROGRESS until you have made it through the whole thing and fallen in love again. You have DAILY ACCESS to Dr Harley over on the weekend board. He will help you with your problems and they will work with your wife every week. There are people over there who Dr Harley has been helping for 8 years!

You need to try this one, themud.

I was on this board for years piddling around for years and had a good marriage, but not a GREAT marriage. My H, who had no use for MB, and I went to this weekend. It made an amazing difference in just the first MONTH. I had overlooked a critical lovebuster [independent behavior] that they caught on the FIRST DAY by giving me a personality test. My IB was causing his angry outbursts. And how I had stupidly overlooked this problem before is beyond me, but eliminating that ONE PROBLEM helped us get over the hump and really fall in love again.

MB is completely different from any other program, themud. You oughta give it a try. You could be doing some dumb thing in your marriage and not even realize it like me. And that one dumb thing made all the difference.

Mud, I do honestly hope that most of what you write here is venting because I can really read a lot of anger and resentment in you already. Forget about building it up - it is there. It's not just about SF anymore - her criticizing and complaining are also getting to you. I don't know what your solution is, but perhaps you should start to think seriously if you really want to stay married to this woman. This is a marriage builder site. But even the Harley's say that not every marriage should be saved. Have you done any counselling with them? Even if you did so alone with out your WW, you may find it helpful.

My thought is there is more problems with the M than just lack of SF, and I'm not talking about from her side. mud, you sound very resentful, that you are not getting EN's met, not just SF. And I would agree.

Lack of SF is more a symptom than a problem. For those that say that is the ONLY thing wrong in their M? I would venture to guess there is an underlying current of unspoken resentment, fear, and/or mistrust.

themud, it sounds like your W is looking outside herself to make herself happy, has never learned the skills to self-soothe. Blames the external for her happiness. And the very sad part about this, nothing and no one will make her happy...she will eternally complain and blame.

My suspicion? You suck it up and take it, you don't say a word. You let her destroy your love for her so as not to make waves...and by remaining silent you are destroying your M...yes, not her, but you. Why blame you? Because you are here and asking, giving advice. You have the skills to make things better. You have ample opportunities.

Have you told her you do not enjoy her company because of her complaining? Have you asked her to stop her LB's?

I agree with every word of this, themud. This is not just about SF, your marriage needs a major overhaul. She is lovebusting you, you are probably lovebusting her. Complaining in marriage is GOOD, but she does it in a way that it is a huge lovebuster, and you probably receive it just as badly. Complaining is an opportunity for improvement in a good marriage, but an irritation in a bad marriage. From the sounds of it, though, she is chronically unhappy and hard to please. You need someone like Dr Harley who can take a look at your marriage comprehensively.

Can you elaberate further on this please.

I am also curious about this. Excellent question.

SHMI is right:



http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5013_qa.html

I meant eloborate on the underlying current of unspoken resentment, fear, and/or mistrust.


That still leaves 1 out of 10 couples with a good fixed relationship, that still have sexual problems.

Not sure if I can...just an away or an eluding to the potential there is more to the issue than 'just' that she is not in the mood.

For a woman, we do not compartmentalize that easily, the rest of our world, our life, is brought into everything we do. While we are shopping we are thinking of other things, events in our life. While we are driving we will run through conversations and scenarios and try to remember our calendar. While we give our H a hug we are thinking about what he said right before we hugged, or the phone conversation we had earlier, or last year...

And when it comes to SF, we have many messages and attitudes tied into that. SF will trigger bad events, mistrusts of other men, and our H's will trigger what other men have done too.

You may be right that she is thinking about the OM, but maybe not in a good way, maybe in a "I will never trust a man again" way.

In a study about the Book of Solomon (sp?) I remember a passage where a man is guided to think of a woman as a nervous bird, and only with a gentle and trustworthy hand can one approach and pick up the bird. Some of us are more skittish than others, but there are VERY few men I would have trusted in my life to get close enough to be vulnerable to engage in SF with...

So what can possibly be that undercurrent? She may not even have thought of it in words. A frank, open, yet compassionate discussion perhaps? I find it hard to discuss sex with a man because I always think their motivation to talk about sex with me is because they eventually want to talk me into sex with them...and to be honest that is your motivation...

Why, yes it does!

I agree with some. I have been vocal about my needs and wants/desires. SHE KNOWS WHAT SHE DOESN'T WANT is the problem. If something arises or comes up in a situation she is totally reactionary. She allows situations to occur by not being proactive about preventing them or steering them to her desired outcome.

Example:
Me: Where do you want to go to dinner

her: I don't care

me: ok, pizza at -----

her: ok

driving along. "Traffic is terrible, you didn't stop at that yellow (or you could have made that yellow)"

get to rest.
Her: line up is rid. they should do this or that

me: silent because I don't mind the wait and I'm now the evil one for wanting to go here.

Her: kids are hungry can you ask them if we can get some bread now. Mean while the kids are truly fine and she's making a bigger deal of it (they'll learn to survive better if she let them be once in a while), however both kids are passed out and we'll probably be in the ER because the kids haven't eaten in 2 hours (sarcasm).

get to table:
her: this one isn't very clean, can you ask them to wipe it down again? Can we move to another table?...

me: silent

This is why I don't want to go camping! IMO kids are learning to have too high of expectations of everything. My wife has been through a lot, you would think she would be ok with a lot and she is if I bring it to her attention, but she has diarreah of the mouth and just can't keep it shut.

Yes there is anger and resentment. I'm threadjacking. Sorry. It's just not fair in our M b/c she can make those complaints, wants me to be ok with her complaints, wants me to voice mine (I don't care to unless there is harm coming) but is not ok if it's not inline with hers. She can criticize 10 things of mine, but if I did one of hers... so yeah resentment about the fairness. I've been vocal about the lack of SF since the beginning. She is finally hearing me, but I wonder if it's too late for me.

We did counsel with Dr. Willard H. in the beginning.

Gack, I have seen you state on this site numerous times that you still resent your FWW for what she has done. It is quite likely that your FWW is picking up on these feelings as well. I'm not saying you don't have plenty to feel resentful about, but it is possible that your lingering resentment is making it difficult for your W to feel close to you.

Is your W aware that SF is your #1 EN? In fact, let's go back even further. Does your W know what EN's are? Have you guys filled out the EN questionnaire? Have you and your W read HNHN or any of Dr. Harley's other books together?

I'm just saying...you are allowing her complaints to destroy your love for her. So you come on here to complain about her, and don't tell her your complaints...

No one answered L2's question. I would be interested hear it. Why is it that if there's a lack of SF there HAS to be something else wrong. What if the person is just selfish, a little tired, a little this a little that and wants to with hold?

I can come up with 1001 reasons I would rather go fishing all day everyday and let my S figure out how to FS us. I can think of a 1001 reasons not to have conversation with her or spend time with her, but inside me I know they are petty excuses that don't hold water and I care about her enough to get past them work on fulfilling her needs.

When it comes to SF though, "you must not be meeting her top ENs". Like L2, what if you are? (I can hear the colonel in 101 dalmations clearing his throat and saying, "impossible you must be missing something.") What if you are not missing anything and S just doesn't care if you are getting your EN met?

How long do you stay? I'll be here for 7 years 5 months, with the hope things get better.

You need to follow up and go the weekend, themud. The coaches and Dr Harley would stay on you both until you have achieved the GOAL of this program, which is creating romantic love. I think that falling in love would resolve most, if not all, of your problems.

Done that.
Several times.

One time she tried to convince me that SF should not even be important to me after us being together for so long. Next time she tried to tell me that she doesn't like SF becouse it reminded her of all the pain she put me through with her affair and OM. Then later she said it has nothing to do with me, she just has no interest in SF anymore


I dont think you are anything like my wife, or some others.

Before my wife had her A, she wanted...read that again, wanted... As in innitiated sex. I had come home from work before and she answered the door in nothing but a wedding ring and a smile and jumped all over me.

Now....... nothing

She has never had a problem with talking about sex, ever, none. To the point where it is almost innapropriate at times. This has not changed, only now she talks about not wanting it.