Sorry that this is long winded, but I need some help getting over this situation before it eats me up and ruins all that I have.
I have been with my wife for 8 � years and married just 9 months. We got together whilst I was divorcing and she was just out of a long term relationship. She was 23 at the time and I was 9 years her senior with two kids aged 10 & 7. Cutting a story short, I got custody of the children for just over half the time and after massive amounts of indecision (took me six months to commit to my now wife) we moved in together and she became step mum (fantastically) to my kids. We then had two of our own now aged 3 & 6 and are considering adding to our numbers.
For the vast majority of our time together I have battled depression combined with too much booze and in reality treated her like [censored]. She comes from a very broken home and wished for security, but even though we were engaged and lived together I never truly committed and used to end the relationship on a fairly regular basis and even though she is truly beautiful made her feel like dirt. We got over a close family suicide (my father) soon after we got together , births, step kids, moving several times and career changes. She was and always has been truly wonderful as a Mum and Step Mum as well as a loyal and forgiving partner. I have called her names beyond what anyone should tolerate and could not have made her feel more insecure if I tried. No joint bank account only my name on the house etc etc. On top of that I used to holiday alone a lot and spent a month in rehab did very little with her and the kids and rarely involved myself in her side of the family.
I appreciate that I sound like the worst human being ever, but I truly loved and still love her and know that it was my own insecurities that lead to the whole control issue. I was unbearably controlling and mistrusting and was pretty intolerable for a great deal of our time together. She stuck in there though and stayed quiet such was her love for me.
So at a family party last Christmas (which, as usual, I did not attend) I rang her to ask her not to stay the night but this time she said that she would like to have a drink and not get the kids out of bed and bring them home when they were comfortable where they were. She never or rarely drank alcohol and in very small quantity if she did. I did my usual and reacted angrily, sent her a text or two basically calling her names and finishing (again) the relationship telling her that her bags were packed. She got extremely drunk in the company of people more her age and at the end of the night, apparently completely drunk, kissed a man who had shown her kindness all night as she had been devastated by my texts and call. He, it appears got a little over excited as all she wanted was just a kiss to comfort her and make her feel �loved� as she put it. He whipped his clothes off and basically like an excited puppy tried his hardest to have sex with her. She said no and managed to keep her pyjamas on (they had all got changed earlier in the evening as it was a family home, nothing strange in that) for the majority of the time but after trying to resist he managed to force her pyjamas down enough to enter her. At this point se pushed him off, he came back for more but she didn�t want it and thought the only way out was to give him a BJ as she finds it non giving of herself and unemotional. Seems odd, but I know this to be true. They were disturbed by a dog barking within seconds of the BJ starting, she then made excuses and went to bed immediately. Because he was a member of her extended step family she stayed in contact in a very minor way to ensure that there was no ill feeling or that anyone would have found out as it would have caused major embarrasement.
When she came back the next day from the party I immediately picked up on something being wrong. She stated that she had had enough of the insecurity of our relationship and was leaving me. I persuaded her to stay and give me a chance and she agreed, but was unsure whether it would change her mind. At this point I had no idea of the events of the party, but kind of suspected that there was more to the whole thing and questioned her to death even stating that I had tapped the phones at one point. She eventually after a month of questioning admitted to kissing this guy but stated that no more had happened and that she wanted it left there and was committed to repairing us and did not want to admit this fact as we had done such good work on our relationship and she felt at the time, during and after that it was a terrible drunken mistake that she regretted with all of her being. I forgave her as I had in effect thrown her into that arms of another, but asked her to take a lie detector test so that I knew I could trust her and continue the good work we were putting in. She reluctantly agreed to do it but the night before confessed to the above and another 3 minute misdemeanour within the first 6 months of our relationship. The first one did not involve anything other than kissing and she stopped it after a couple of minutes as it all felt wrong but said that it was at a time when I was still making my mind up about being with her and a guy at work showed her much nicer attention that I did and she gave in to his persuasive nature. They worked together for the next 6 years and nothing even happened again.
She passed the lie detector stating that she didn�t want sex at the Christmas party or any sort of relationship and basically all had now been told about everything that had happened from an infidelity point of view.
I questioned the two guys involved and the first confirmed exactly to the letter what my wife stated and the Christmas party guy basically said that she didn�t want anything else but he got a bit carried away although she didn�t stop him trying. His story differed slightly but only I would imagine because he was drunk too and therefore their recollections and/or interpretations would bound to be slightly different. He though he was onto a good thing, she was trying to think of a way out, so she says.

So, one would think at this point that we could draw a line under all of this and get on with life as she had been an angel for all but 5-10 minutes of our relationship, confessed eventually and passed a lie detector test to show me that she wanted to be truthful and regain my trust. On top of that she was still committed to working on our relationship and asked me to finally marry her, which I did.

However, I can�t seem to let the whole thing lie. I still question her and try to exaggerate what happened. I still try to get her to confess to more and have asked her over and over again to relive the events of the night in question and her story has never wavered. Yet I still continue to ask. She married me, she stayed with me, she tells me every day that she adores me and that the whole thing when it is brought up makes her feel physically sick and she is truly ashamed and that I was and always will be the only one for her, she was just lonely and wanted some affection as I was not giving it to her.

My question really is why can I not make this stop. I adore her, she adores me, we have a great life together and much happiness and the work we have done on our relationship is terrific over the last year and in many respects I cant imagine a better marriage, but this still keeps cropping up a year later. Why can I not see it for what it was, take the hit and get on with things. It is so destructive. She says often during these moments that the butterfly that comes back is yours forever, but I still feel like it could happen again and check her every move. I understand and appreciate my part in all of this. I know that had I not been an idiot none of this would have ever happened because this is not in her nature normally.
Is there anyone out there with some advice before I ruin everything that we have built by this constant reminding of bad times. Why can I not trust her ?

Bingo,
Welcome to MB. Although you blame yourself alot, the problem is you both have not worked on putting extroadinary precautions in place to protect your M. Therefore you feel insecure because there is nothing in place to make you feel secure except her word which you know from past history is not reliable. What scares you is she was capable of being with other men. Recovering a marriage takes time (mine took typical two years) and having a good plan. You should read the articles here and get the book on how to survive infidelity. There are some good questionnaires here on how to determine yours and WS top needs. And you need to learn about how you each have love banks and with your angry outburts you are withdrawing love instead of making deposits. Read about the concepts here and see if it is something you and WW want to work on. You won't regret it.

Here's a article on Why We Can't Forgive & Forget.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html

Gg

Thanks for that, very interesting article.
She has in fact not just cut ties with the man/men in question, but completely cut herself from that side of her family to prove that she wants us. She has gone to extraordinary lengths to prove her commitment including writing a statement stating that what happened happened and why, how she felt and that her love is so strong that she is so confident that it would not happen again that she would forgo custody of our children in that event. She is basically an honest person that lost the fight that I had created. Its all in my mind I think, not hers. Her version of events were not that is was sexual at all, more emotional. I suspect the mars and venus thing is preventing me from moving on when it is all that she craves and shows deep remorse every tie it is discussed.
Tell me more if you can about your recovery and what happened. It may well help.
Thanks again.

My FWH had EA with OW from gym. The worst months for me were the first six months after Dday. Like many BS here, I went through (in this order) guilt (for my part in relationship), anger (for my WH selfishness) and the worst was resentment (which builds over time) and fear (could happen again). My FWH was also like your WW. He did a 180 after Dday and did everything here and through MC to R our M. I can tell you R is a process and you do go through different phases. Anniversary dates (of Dday) are painful for some BS. Memories and triggers are another issue you have to deal with. I think the most painful thing is knowing that the person who is supposed to love you and be committed to you can betray you. That is not an easy thing to get over. Harley says it typically take two years to R a M. That was the case with us.

Gg

i am new to this forum, or any for that matter. Could you please explain FWH, EA, OW, BS, MC etc.
Thanks

you can find the acronyms at the following link...

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2282858&page=1

I recommend you also check out the Notable Post Forum. There are some good threads on recovering.

Gg

FWH - Former Wayward Husband
EA - Emotional Affair
OW - Other Woman
BS - Betrayed Spouse
MC - Marriage Counseling

Aside from what she did, I question what it is you want? If you want to stop obsessing over her actions of that one night, then what are YOU doing about YOU?

Are you in therapy to deal with all your destructive behaviors? Your selfishness? Your entitlement?

That's where I would advise you to look.

Get into therapy.

Thank you .
I think the obsession cam from trying to find out exactly what happened and the level of commitment my wife had put into the ONS and whether there was really asny feelings for the guy. I went to the extent of setting up a false email account and pretending to be him trying to get back in touch secretly to see what her true feeling about the matter were. Turns out that she politely told him (or what she thought was him) precisely what she had told me and very politely to F off as she just wanted to be with me.
I think perhaps in my persuit of truth I started to drown in the why's and wherefores and made a bigger deal out of the whole thing than it needed to be. It obviously meant nothing and as she was drunk she was not able to think straight. I can understand why she would not want to reveal all of the facts at the time as she did not want to hurt me and felt that it was not relevant to do so as it had helped make her mind up as to where she wanted to be.
That said, all I want is peace. I understand why these things happen and in her shoes, being treated the way she was would have done that and far worse I am sure.
The fact remains that, despite all the assurances one can get, and she has not put a foot wrong in the last year and done all of the things suggested to create a sense of security, that I still run over it in my head on a daily basis imagining every moment as if it happened yesterday.
I did a bit of therapy for OCD to try to calm things down and it has to be said that the episodes are getting less frequent, but it still haunts me.
I suppose as she has been my rock for all these years whilst I have been selfish and controlling she is the last person on earth I thought would do this and s such I am having trouble dealing with that.
I have changed my ways in a remarkable way. I no longer deal with the money in our marriage, I no longer go solo on any decision and we discuss things as never before. All the foundation is there as is the security. I just still feel shattered and worried and scared.
Not once has there been even a hint that what she did was anything other than a terrible mistake without feeling and under duress. I had at that point finished the relationship (again) so I can sort of see where she is coming from with the "I just wanted to feel wanted" scenario.
If it is just a matter of time then I am happy to put in the work and let it become a thing of the past. I just wondered whether it was unusual for it to take this long despite all the effort that has been put in.
I am convinced of my love for her and truly know that it is US that I want, but having never really discussed this with anyone other than her or confided, it is a lonely battle at times.
She dealt with it at the time, boxed it off and made the decision that she wanted me and took from it, quite sensibly, the lesson that she wanted no one else but needed me to understand her dissatisfaction in the way I was treating her.
Am I barking up the wrong tree? Is it true that once a cheater, however minor, always a cheater. Am I misreading this and actually clinging to the wrong woman?
I have to say that at no time have I ever wanted the relationship to end even at the point of revelation, but is that just control and that I don't want anyone else to have her or is it truly that i want to evolve with her, learn from the past and get on with our marriage harmoniously.
Can someone read between the lines for me as I am finding the whole thing a bit of a blur ?
Thanks so much for your help.
Cheers

Here is the crux of your whole problem - which is why I asked if YOU are in therapy. And no, a couple sessions does not count:
This has nothing to do with her, aside from the fact that she - for once - did ONE thing that wasn't completely about YOU.

Your self-esteem issues. Possible toxic shame (look it up). Self-destruction. All about you.

Also, you spent all these years safe in the assumption that you could be an a$$ and she'd still have unconditional love for you. Now you have to accept the fact that, gee, maybe YOU have to be a decent person, too.

So..what to do? As I said, STOP putting this on her. It is about YOU, so get yourself back into therapy, or find a new purpose in your life, and start getting focused. You still sound very selfish and very entitled. Maybe do some volunteering (together, if possible; with the kids, even better). If you stop focusing on yourself, you'll make progress.

You are right on so many levels. I have been incredibly selfish and am still being to a certain extent.
Harsh as it is to read what you state makes perfect sense. She did indeed do one thing for a few minutes that was not about me and even then she claimed that it was, in reality, as all she wanted, ever, was to be loved the same way as she loves me, and for a moment sought it from elsewhere in desperation as I had yet again kicked her to the floor (metaphorically).
I made a resolution to her that 2010 would be the end of the questioning and the blame and that I would do anything to make this go away, thus my first public admission of this problem.
She is a truly fantastic woman that has proved over and over again that she is dedicated (she is pregnant it appears) and that to be rejected constantly was heart breaking.
I know my part in this now and realise quite what an a$$ I have been and really it should be me apologising and taking a hit for the team.
I used to do a great deal of voluntary work, but I run two quite large businesses and as such time got the better of all of that. I suppose because I am a control freak, quite sucessfully, with my work, it spilled into home life and "toxic shame" has indeed occured. I expect everything to go my way and for everyone to conform to my way of thinking when that should be left at work and home should be a more joint effort. I suspect that the reason I am being an idiot about this is down to the fact that I could not control the evening in question and cannot change it and therefor obsess and blame.
I know I am wrong in all of this because, as she has said, if she really wanted to have let go, and lets face it, being drunk can do that, she would have, but she didn't she just wanted to feel precisely what I was not offering...attractive and wanted. It just went a bit further than she had reckoned on and she was not capable due to the drink and speed of developments to do much about it. Vunerable, would best describe it. But vunerable because of me all the same.
At 41 it is difficult to change the habits of a lifetime, and obviously I am giving the impression that I am quite a bad person. In reality, I am, day by day becoming again the person that she fell in love with but let her down.
I will get help and sort this out as she deserves better than to be beaten with a stick that really should be used on me.
You know, i sometimes wake in the morning with her staring at me, her having been awake for an hour or so. I always ask what she is doing and she always says "just looking at my husband and loving him quietly because I can".
Your right, it's me who needs to take the bull by the horns and deal with this and get better for the both of us.
Trust me, it is a different relationship to what it was, because I got the wakeup call that I deserved really, but I now fully understand that, for it to be truly two halves of a whole, one of the halves needs to be just that.
I always felt like I didn't deserve her (and possibly don't) and that's where the whole putting her down issue began. Again, what you say makes sense in that if I gained a little self confidence, which incidentally she asked me to make as a new years resolution, this would not be an issue, or as much of one.
What I do know is that if I had done the same thing she would only care about how I felt about the other person and her and what she had done wrong to put me in that position. I have indeed approached this the wrong way.
I sincerely thank you for your help. As I said this is the frist time I have done this in my life and have confided in no-one.
Any other pearls of wisdom would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers

Congratulations on the baby!

fwiw, you should read up on toxic shame. It's a FOO issue, something you carry all your life from childhood, and it manifests in everything you do or feel or think. I don't think you quite understand the concept. It may help you to learn more about it. I read the book Healing the Shame That Binds You, and it was eye-opening.

Now...how much time together do you spend with your wife? According to MB, to keep your love going, you should spend at least 15 hours each week on each other - no tv, no work, no destractions. That would be a good place to start.

We now spend a great deal of time together. In fact we have not slept in separate beds in the last year ( i used to travel alot) we commit to at least one night a week with just the two of us alone and out of the house. Sometimes difficult because of all the kids. We have just spent 8 days as a family in NYC (we are english) and as such this is the first day in 10 that I have not been by her side constantly. I miss her so much actually.
We text a great deal now when we are apart, just the soppy "i love you" type. I also apologise now if I wind her up the wrong way, which I never did. I respect her in a way that I never did, and we really enjoy each others company. In fact we cut our social lives down to the point where we are a family and do things that way without involving others as it seems we don't need them.
I got to the point with CBT therapy when it was discovered that there was perhaps an abandonment(not feeling loved by Mum) issue when I wqas very small, but it got so uncomfortable that I could not continue with the therapy much against the wishes of my wife who was seeing great positive leaps in my demeanour. I think that may answer your question regarding the concept of toxic shame. I am aware, but scared to deal with it. I know it affects everything and I know you are right that it has to be dealt with.
I will order the book. Thank you.
I know that when we are together it is miraculous and that I cannot ever imagine two people being more in love. I also know that my nagging doubts are stupid really as she would have left long ago, never wished to marry me (she was a single Mum really) and certainly not wish to have more children with me.
I know it's me that need to be fixed a little and perhaps all will be well merely from that. I certainly, having obsessed for this long, realise that she is not about to shut the door on us, but rationality is not something I appear to be very good at.
I suppose what I am trying to say is that WE, as a couple, are past the worst, but I am realising that I as a person am not. I hear this from your wise words too.
I have stated that now we are officially pregnant that I will not touch a drop of alcohol from now on in and I know that will help too.
Bless you for being kind enough to spend time with me on this. It has been a huge relief to have been able to talk with someone about this.
Keep it coming....you certainly know your stuff !!
Your story ?
Cheers

I found an email she sent me quite recently that probably sums up where she was coming from and where the problem lies. I have obviously missed out names, but it is exactly what she sent after I had questioned, once again, her commitment to us and why the whole thing happened. Perhaps more insight.

My darling,
I'm sorry that you are feeling so low. I wish with all my heart that you could just move on and leave it all behind us.
I felt so lonely, so unloved and just desperate. The only person that I wanted/needed continually rejected me.
I read a, in many ways sad, love letter this morning from Jane Welsh to Thomas Carlyle which she started with 'Unkind that you are ever to suffer me to be cast down, when it is so easy a thing for you to lift me to the Seventh Heaven!'. The line spoke to me on every level. Just a smile from you leaves me with a feeling of euphoria.
Our subsequent, too numerous and lengthy, talks have been about all this and telling each other how we feel/felt in the hope that we can recognise emotions in each other and learn from our mistakes.
The talks have opened each of us up and having you express the feelings in your heart serves only to make me love you more.
I have always loved you, I truly didn't/couldn't believe that you felt the same. I still know that I love you more than you love me but all I can do is hope that one day you catch up. We have made great progress already but still have a way to go. I am fully aware of this but am strengthened by you...by us. I don't know why but you don't seem to be able to do that. You need to stop all this foolish, harmful self doubt. What good is it doing? It is serving only to make us weak and is so unnecessary. I love you, I am your wife, this is forever...from my side at least. You still seem hell bent on dooming our relationship at a moments notice...that I am sick of. Should you really want us forever then realise it is a joint effort. At times it feels like I am running a three legged race with a partner who's wearing one lead boot! I don't want to run it solo, I don't want a substitute running partner, I just want you to kick it off and let's win this thing! (I don't know if that makes sense to you but please let me apologise for not being as good at analogies as you!)
Your questions about marriage...I have made my choice, I have made the vows, I have made the commitment. I have never been married before and don't really care what marriage means to other people nor what other people do in their marriages. I know what it means to me...and that is that it is for life. I chose you my darling, I chose us. I told you that we cannot help who we fall in love with...so just accept it....accept that I completely adore you. I know that you'll question why but it is everything and nothing and that is so hard to put into words because using any one reason as an example would be doing an injustice to all the others.
Please cease fretting about the self and understand that you are part of an us...we win together, we loose together...simple.
Yours forever and eternity

mmmmh. that does make sense of what you posted earlier. She, it seems has got the gist of my problems, maybe I haven't. Until now.
Thanks again.
This has been truly helpful.
Cheers

May be it's just my story, but this forum ( the first of which I have ever been to ) seems to allow you to open your heart, get a character assassination for honesty, and then be left high and dry.
I admitted my faults, told the truth and then just as it seemed it was becoming a useful tool, people stare but say nothing.
How is that constructive ?

Um...you hadn't asked about anything in your last post. I don't think people realized you were seeking a response. What would you like to hear from us?

whether I'm on the right tracks. I opened myself and my wife up, to a certain extent, and was looking for opinion really as to whether she had recovered and as such, I can ?

Sorry, bingo. This is my first time on your thread. I see you registered here four days ago. What is it you have been expecting? From my limited experience, the process here usually takes the following form:

* Desperate, hurt, confused, angry person (usually a betrayed spouse, or BS) arrives, introduces themselves, describes a bit of the reason for being here, and confesses to being afraid and at a loss.

* People begin to respond. They ask questions, mostly to understand what it is the poster is asking. These questions sometimes seem heartless, but because timing is so crucial in matters such as these, being polite and demur is a waste of it.

* If the poster wants to recover the marriage (which is, after all, what this site is all about), he or she is then encouraged to learn as much as they can about the Marriage Builder (MB) principles, concepts and plans.

* Frequently, the poster will object to some of the guidance offered. That's okay, no one forced them to come here, no one gets paid for their advice, and everything is done with one basic purpose behing it: recovery.

* This site is based on principles that are PROVEN TO WORK. Early arrivals sometimes feel they can "pick and choose" which parts they want to use. It doesn't work that way. Plan A is followed by Plan B, and so on. One without the other does not work.

* The use of 2x4's is employed because people here don't have the time to hand-hold each and every person who comes here. The best advice is to get started, get smart and get moving.

* Recovery is based on what a person wants to get out of it. Do you want to recover your marriage? Do you want to do that at the sacrifice of your own sanity? Are you willing to do the HARD WORK necessary to accomplish recovery?

* Like any other program that works, it only works if people WANT it and are WILLING to do the work it requires. If that's a 2x4, so be it.

So, what's it going to be, bingo? Is that constructive enough for you?

I appreciate that, and I hope I don't sound arrogant, but we have put a lot of hard work in, and my wife seems to have recovered far better than I.
I have taken into account everything that has been said to me, ordered the books, read the instructional parts of the site and done all that i can to calm my mind.
I just wanted an opinion, harsh as it may be, as to whether, I can move on. I want to, but seem to find it hard, that's all.
cheers

Ok, then. What steps have you taken to change YOU?

Have you found a therapist to deal with your controlling ways?

Have you signed up for phone counseling with the Harleys?

Have you ordered any books to read?

Have you asked your wife to fill out the Love Buster questionnaire so you'll know what YOU have to stop doing to LB her?