Well I am new to Marriage Builders and my marriage is a mess. I see that some people post long messages so please bear with me as I really need help.
I have been married 29 years and for 20 my emotional needs have not been met. This has caused me to be very depressed and then I feel better and I just repeat this cycle over and over again. This spring I told my husband that I had even considfered leaving him because I felt so bad - I ws at that time even suffering from IBS. He says he was devastated but he did nothing. This summer I felt so bad from what I believe is emotional abuse although it is subtle, I was almost suicidal. I have been to dr. to make sure hormones are in order and then I started counselling through the church. After a couple of weeks husband came too. I was very stressed because he says all the right things, even to knowing a wife's needs but does not try to fulfil them. I read another post where the wife said her husband will try for 2 weeks; I can agree with that generally.
I do not agree with divorce but I asked him to move into basement to give me space. We did that for 2 weeks and then I asked him back up so we could work on relationship. This was not a good idea so I asked him to move back. He refused so short story I did.
He has not taken any action over the years to meet my emotional needs and when I asked him yesterday what actions had he done he could not answer.
My fear now is that our 15 year old daughter is suffering badly. She has collapsed 3 times, and today is vomiting. Would it really be better if I moved out to an apartment. I am afraid that my daughter will not come as H is such a charmer and I am not. Please help me I do not know what to do.

Britmom, Welcome to MB, though I'm so sorry you find yourself in this position.

This is a good place, though typically quiet on the weekends.

Please do read through the materials on the website... the articles, etc.

Have you got a copy of any of Dr. H's books? Lovebusters, or His Needs Her Needs?

Next, you sound seriously depressed, and your daughter too. So let me ask, are you safe? Are you thinking of hurting yourself? How bout your daughter? Is she safe? Is she thinking of hurting herself? What do you think is going on with her? Has she talked to a counselor?

it sounds like you might need some help (and your daughter to) in dealing with your emotional states. Church counseling is great... can you afford any professional counseling?

Meanwhile, read read read.

Good luck, you aren't alone. more people will post when the weekend passes.

Dear britmom,

I'm sorry to hear about the situation. You say that your emotional needs are not met most of the time. Have you asked from your H about his own emotional needs, what about them? Are they met by you? Do you know what are his most intimate emotional needs and how to meet them? I've learned that things go 2ways, if I do my part and take full responsibility in it, then I will have my needs met and not the other way round. I cannot do my husbands part. But I can change the situation for the better by starting changing my own behaviour.
Have you talked to your daughter, what does she think about the whole thing? Take her out maybe, try to develop a safe converstation.

Thank you for your responses. My daughter is not coping very well and is now collapsing with what are probably panic attacke. We are waiting for various test results right now.
As to meeting my husbands emotional needs, yes I believe I have in the past done a good job of that because he has always said everything is ok and not acknowledged that I may have needs to be met. I have read a lot and listened to various speakers and been in bible study groups and H has been to these groups too. He can spout the lingo but takes no action or minimal. I have researched the possibility that he has Narcissistic Personality Disorder. In which case maybe I just need to learn how to live with it. But I don't know how to do that without becoming extremely depressed. We have been to counselling but H is done with it. He doesn't understand that it may take a couple of years to get back on track and he doesn't seem to want to invest that kind of time.

I truly hope that your daughter will get help and get better and that she will find support from both of you.

It is kind of a dead end and shows a lack of empathy from your side when you try to explain your H's behaviour with possible personality disorders. Try to focus on things you can do. Like analysing yourself, is there anything you'd like to change in yourself? Ask yourself how YOU can turn the situation around? I guess that your depression has something to do with the hopelessness that you cannot do anything. But your efforts are wasted and go in vain -- trying to change your H or find solutions in explaining his self or behaviour is not your thing to do, not even in your power to do. If you focus on yourself, your own self and behaviour then you will find something you actually CAN do -- you will start seeing changes in yourself, then in your marriage, and eventually even in your H, and your depression might get smaller or even go away because you do what IS in your power to do. It is not surprising to feel depressed when you try to do something you cannot do, isn't it?

It is recommended here that first you'd take care of all possible love busters (read the book called Lovebusters by Dr Harley) and then you start with emotional needs (the book His Needs, Her Needs). You can start showing your genuine interest towards your H by working on you. It is very common to think that we do everything right, and only faults are there of our spouse's.

Last, but not least � are you sure that your H is not having an affair?

Wow that was harsh! I had to leave and come back! I have not given too much information as one of the things I am trying to do is not be negative. However that is hard to do when you are trying to explain your position. Remember that I have tried many times to talk to H about how I feel we need to do more to improve our marriage and he has just dismissed my thoughts by saying he is happy. Where is the empathy there? I have even tried the approach that even if everything is ok we could improve on it, but that didn't work either. Also I have forgiven him the past hurts; I am a long way mentally, emotionally etc from where I was 6 months ago. We went to the counsellor and I had already tried things she suggested and btw she had to speak quite sharply to H about how he was treating me even in the room!
Although we are separated in the house I sometimes give him a meal, I have done his laundry as well but I have yet to see that reciprocated. I have changed a lot over the years to accomodate his wishes. So much so that I feel that the real me has been suppressed and although I have forgiven husband things cannot go on as they were. Another thing I have tried to change is to put in boundaries and when I talked to husband about that he was furious just at the word - that was the one time I thought he might hit me. He grew up with no boundaries, extremely permissive parents and I'm afraid I thought I was being a godly wife submitting toi his every need and want, but now I find out that was a big mistake.
As i said there is a lot we have gone through and maybe I am misleading you because I have tried many things and changed alot. We have been married 29 years and we were 19 when we married. We have 3 kids 25, 23 and 15.
As for an affair I have suspicions but don't really think so. Main reason I think so is because he hasn't worn wedding ring for months, EXCEPT WHEN WE WENT TO COUNSELLOR! Otrherwise I feel that would be very dramatic.
Thank you for replying.

Britmom,

Glad you came back. What may feel harsh right now, being asked questions and advice to focus on your own actions (which I think you heard as fault), won't feel harsh later. It's like a reality adjustment that takes us by surprise, so far out of what we've been doing for decades. Understandable.

Great job in coming back. Takes bravery. Would you consider that you didn't have boundaries, either? Most people (and that was me, too, and my DH), who marry someone who "knows no boundaries" don't have them either. Or marries someone who seems to have boundaries...and when they come to understand the other person better, realize their spouse only has boundaries around their husband or wife, not themselves.

It's a life long journey, I think. So it's great you're studying and setting boundaries around yourself. Would you consider you're working on learning to forgive yourself for so many years of betrayal? Wasn't all the mental and emotional hurts you experienced...was definitely part.

Like a promise your H continually breaks...we make these promises (example: if he doesn't, then I will leave) in our heads, and then don't follow through. Part of us knows that promise is unreasonable...because if we break our vows and leave our marriages over one thing, we aren't being true partners.

However, leaving and divorcing are the two final boundary enforcements...so the promise isn't crazy...just out of order. There are many boundary enforcements to be taken before those last two ones, which is why we search and hesitate and don't feel really right about leaving.

And often, we ping pong between the all or nothing...leave or stay...and don't see, just as we didn't see progressive boundary enforcements, all the choices in between.

Like you, leave but stay in the same house, different floors...that's one of those. Often, we find the alternatives through action/reaction...not predetermined, which is key to healthy boundary enforcements.

I can share with you a poster on these boards called _Ace_...she was 32 years into what you're feeling...and it's a long time...and today, she's very much in love with her H and he is very much in love with her. She thought it impossible...his Emotional Affair (EA) brought her here for help.

First, know reality, Britmom. Your job is to find out if there is an affair...a physical one, an emotional one (like on the internet, through games or chat rooms, hobby rooms). Your job is to not ask him, but to snoop...check his emails, his browser history, cell calls, etc. There's a forum here on MB called "Surviving an Affair" which is named after Dr. Harley's great book (super insightful)...which has threads that tell you how to do this. And it's a great boundary to put around yourself...honesty...to know the truth of actions for yourself...to verify. To not wonder and discard your wonderment.

The reason you find this out first is because then you can enact plans here which can bust up the affair and lead to recovery.

Will you list the changes you've made in yourself over the years of attempting to improve your marriage, or get your ENs met in the marriage? Helps to know what areas you already focused on. I already saw where the blind submission didn't build trust, admiration or appreciation. Dr. Harley believes that blind trust is dangerous to a marriage...we build trust through transparency, radical honesty--which increases intimacy.

Questioning your H's empathy, his feelings, thoughts, beliefs...that's his stuff. Not about you. Sure can make you be the cause, control and cure of him...he really can't be. Aligning with this, where you look at the whole of yourself, and your partner, see how he really does meet your ENs which you don't even know you have because he does meet them (maybe Financial Security...FS), they just don't hit your radar.

You're not crazy or wrong...I'm positive your H has love busters which wipe out the deposits he does do to meet some of your ENs. You can't make him change, do, think, believe, feel or perceive anything...be aware he chooses those things, just as you choose yours.

And you are equal in your marriage...each are half. Would you consider shifting from doing FOR him, to get him to do, and instead, temporarily, do for The Marriage...so your focus stays on your half. Building and defining those healthy boundaries and predetermining your boundary enforcements for when you cross them?

For me, doing that, rebuilt my strength, increased my peace, deepened my delight...and it wasn't my DH doing/not doing...temporarily. I had to address all my gunk that got in the way of me really feeling in love with him...so I could receive his love deposits (and yes, he was making some). Gave me a blessed second wind...so I'm passing my experience onto you.

Hug and give yourself kudos for being here. What a great choice you made. Determine what you really want...what's your goal...and find out if it is within your control or not...if it is to get him to meet your ENs or to stop LB'ing you, then that goal isn't yours. Not about you. Can feed feelings of frustration, deepen resentment, drain love deposits and hurt a lot. And when you stop, what he was doing/wasn't is still there, but your frustration drops by half, along with the pain and the fear. Gives you some breathing space and clarity.

A great place to begin, Britmom.

LA

Thanks for the encouragement. I am trying to be positive in my attitude to H but sometimes it is difficult.
I am feeling a lot healthier living apart but I ache for my daughter and her issues. Tonight when I got home I asked H if she had told him about her appts. He said yes. I asked him to not say anything to her but let me tell her that I will be going to counsellor with her tomorrow. He does not think this is a good idea but I said I need to meet counsellor nad introduce myself as the parent. I can leave for them to talk. I also reminded him that he was paying. I also told him I have Thursday pm off to go to follow up at Dr. with her after all her tests. I said same boundaries apply. My feeling is she is 15 and I love her and I want to be the parent.
After that he also spoke to me about a discussion they had last night. On the aside I do not mind them talking but I do object to her bedroom door being locked as I would leave as I did when asked. Am I being too sensitive?
H is said she is feeling insecure, well yes I would not argue with that, and he said that we should try living together for her sake. I did point out that way before this last episode she was depressed and did not want us around her friends when we were together! That is embarrassing to admit and it was mainly just tension between us. So I told him she would still feel that.
Personally I am not ready to move back into bedroom and I was already thinking of trying to show a more positive attitude towards him. So what I think is that I should suggest is that we do family and couple outings, for example it is S birthday next week we could all go together. Also we could show united support of D. LOcking bedroom door and him not asking D if I could join in would be a big one I think. Just had to delete negative opinion! Is this too little because I am thinking baby steps ?
Another aside: When I moved downstairs H said he would never ask me back up. This is probably as close as it will get - he asked me to think about it - without directly asking me. He also mentioned Divorce; I never have done that and he also mentioned me moving to an apartment. yet again and I hope this is not negative he is leaving it up to me to make all the moves to improve the situation. well I guess he did ask me to think about situation so if I don't do what he suggests I am the bad person because he suggested it?
On the affair I do not think he is having a physical affair but he did contact a mutual friend when daughter was ill and I am pretty sure from his body language he fancies her. I nearly spoke to her and her husband about it but I did not want to appear itrrational as I have been called that by H.

Dear Britmom,

I'm sorry sounding harsh to you, it wasn't my intention, in my poor way I was really trying to show you that things may not be as desperate as they sound when you start from yourself. At least then you can DO something.

I would really recommend that first of all you make some serious efforts of finding out whether your H is having an affair or not. It really doesn't matter whether this is physical or emotional or on the verge of both of them. Affair is affair and makes your situation a real difficult one if it comes to be true.

The following link may be a great help for that.
Spying 101

Best of luck and keep posting!

Maybe a divorce is more humane than having your husband live in the basement. Seems a bit disrespectful. Without respect, what have you left?

I am the one living in the basement. And he is the one talking about divorce not me. I have never mentioned it but now it is just rolling off his tongue.I admit to wanting to be apart for the last few months but being in the basement is somewhat working for me. I have come along way since July. I want to keep working at our marriage but H wants to give up because I want to change things.

I am so sorry this is happening to you, I am going thru the same thing- trying my best to fulfil his emotional needs for the past 3 yrs, bringing up different ideas of improving the marriage,but all I get from him is passivity and total lack of interest, sometimes even disrespect. What can one do from there?

I am also new here and the response I keep getting is to work on myself which I have been doing for 3 yrs. feel like really quitting because it takes 2 to tangle and he would not even fill a form or go to counseling by himself or with me saying I am the one that needs to go for counseling

I hope you find solutions to your problem, sorry I have not been able to offer you advice but there are people here that will help you

Thanks colorfunch. We both are in a bad situation and if yours is anything like mine we seem like the ones who are breaking up the marriage.
There was a card in the mail for H from church today and apparently he asked for prayer for healing and strength. I wish that he could find his way to talking to me.
This morning I got concerned about the dirty kitchen floor in his space and the stinky sink! My first cynical thought was he wants me to move back and then I will have to clean this mess! Anyway God had a word in my ear to clean up anyway so I have. Don't know if he will notice but I feel that I need to still try to bridge the gap as much as I am able - which I admit is not much. I did begin the love dare before Christmas but when he was verbally abusive I gave up. I think it is a good idea but the dare about telling 3 things was difficult for me to ask as I already had been told and then he would not tell me; said he did not want to be negative, but then was very negative about it when he was not happy at Christmas. I gave up then but thinking with help from MB and the knowledge and tools I can move forward with doing things such as cleaning the floor for him!

gaslighting
A common form of brainwashing in which an abuser tries to falsely convince the victim that the victim is defective, for any purpose whatsoever, such as making the victim more pliable and easily controlled, or making the victim more emotional and therefore more needy and dependent.

Often done by friends and family members, who claim (and may even believe) that they are trying to be helpful. The gaslighting abuser sees himself or herself as a nurturing parental figure in relation to the victim, and uses gaslighting as a means for keeping the victim in that relationship, perhaps as punishment for the victim's attempt to break out of the dependent role.

Example 1: If an abusive person says hurtful things and makes you cry, and then, instead of apologizing and taking responsibility, starts recommending treatments for what he or she calls "your depression" or "your mood swings," you are in the presence of a gaslighter.


Example 2: If someone insults you or criticizes you, and then pretends it was a joke and asks "Don't you have a sense of humor?", that's gaslighting.

Perception blaming is a common form of gaslighting, and a common technique for evading the consequences of one's actions. Example: "I'm sorry you perceived my words that way; it wasn't my intention." Translation: "You are perceptually defective. Everyone else in the world can read my mind; if you can't, there must be something wrong with you. Or so I'd like you to believe." Unspoken Message: "My intention should change your actions (even though it didn't change mine)." This presupposes the reasoning "Most people are judged for their actions; but *I* want to be judged for my unseen intentions."
Do you think that H mentioning that I want Divorce when he says he doesn't want to and I have never mentioned it is gaslighting because I can certainly make other comments of his fit this exactly and have thought so before. This definition is from another thread on this website.
Also if H is gaslighting whatg am I supposed to do?

I have just had another look at the EN questionaire. We both did this questionaire about 18 months ago. This is what we did. We both filled it out and then we discussed how we answered the questions. H thinks this is all we have to do. He will not discuss how we can come to agreement on differences or make the things we even agree on work. This is too much pressure for him. Where do I go from here?

Well I thought I had done a post asking about gaslighting but now I am really concerned.
I will give some background first. I moved into the basement it has a full guest suite. The closet was cleaned out before I moved in.
This morning I found an unopened condom on the floor of the closet. I have been living here for 4 weeks now. I have never bought condoms and there is no way it was there before. What do I do? Any thoughts?

Dear Britmom,

Well, I think there are couple of options - first, that your H is having an affair OR that your children are using the basement for their own business. Both are likely, but for your piece of mind and clarity what's going on, you should start snooping to find out about your H. I included the link to Spying 101 couple of posts ago, which gives you a good idea what to do and how to do it.

How is your daughter? Is she any better?

Concerning my daughter it is highly likely she is suffering from anxiety attacks. Dr. put her on Zoloft and she is seeing counsellor. Counsellor and Dr have worked together for about 5 years so I feel happier about that. Just wish daughter felt really well.Thank you so much for asking.
I know she was not at home so I think it was H but reasoning why he would I don't know.
Does he want me to think he is having an affair?
Does he want me to tell him what i found so he can acuse me? Any way I look at this it is wierd.

I hope there is someone out there who can help me.
My H and I were trying very hard to have a discussion but we did raise our voices more than I would have wanted. I did try to keep myself in check. Anyway D got upset and was going to drive to friends house. We both told her she couldn't for several reasons one being illegal! We did let her go for some space and she is staying night but will have to go to school in morning and she and I drive together.
Anyhow while she has been out H and I have had further discussion. Basically he has given me 3 options but really it is an ultimatum:
1. I move out
2. He moves out
3. I move back upstairs so we can be a proper family unit with me cooking and us eating meals together (that would be weekends only btw).
I have offered a 4th option. I stay downstairs but we work towards building our relationship back together by showing D that we are respecting each other and going out as a couple or family unit.
I offered this because a) I am not ready to move back together until I see changes in our relationship for my own emotional and mental health
b) I think it would be more upsetting to D if we move back together and then we separate again; she really won't know where she is
H cannot see this as a compromise at all and it his his way or not at all. He doesn't think my idea would work. I would really appreciate some feedback because I want to make the best decision.
BTW H is also putting the guilt trip on me about D's health and my relationship being ruined with all 3 kids. Oldest 2 are adults.