I was just wondering if you had to choose one or the other would you rather be the betrayed, or the betrayer? Personally, I would rather be the betrayer. It seems to me that they have the most 'power' in the relationship so to speak. <BR>It really amazes me how many posts I've read from people who have cheated on their spouses and then claim that their spouse wouldn't do something like that to them. Even when they (the betrayer) are going through this 'withdrawal' period and really would prefer to be with the other person. Why would anyone stay around for this? I realize the sanctity of marriage should be honored but they were the ones who broke it to begin with. I would rather leave the relationship all together and find someone who would treat me better than that, especially if they (the betrayers) are only staying around for the kids. <BR>Not that the children shouldn't be considered but getting a custody agreement where both spouses could have equal time with the child would be better than being with someone who is more than likely still looking for someone they think is better than you. Or having an agreement where the husband has his relationships and the wife has hers. <BR>I'm sorry I don't mean to sound bitter here but reading some of these posts just makes me want to cry. With the whining from the betrayers about not 'having gotten over the other person' and 'oh yeah I'm treating my wife (or husband, as the case may be) like crap, making her (him) cry a lot, heh heh heh, but that's okay s/he's a doormat and will always be there. Poor me poor me'. <BR>I am also not trying to say that if your spouse has cheated and you are trying to work it out with them then you are a doormat. I'm just saying you (the betrayed)can probably find someone who will treat you much better than you are being treated now. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Curiosity (edited October 23, 1999).]

Have you been a betrayer or betrayed? Doesn’t sound like it.<BR>Pretty easy to say what you have said when it hasn’t happened to you.

Not a great pair of choices. If given the chance, I'd rather not be the betrayer OR the betrayed. I don't know anyone that would.<P>So much of the evolution of being a betrayer is rooted in other problems in the marriage, most often a failure to meet emotional needs by one of the spouses. Read some of the mb data -- it's really pretty interesting.<P>Essentially, it's cause and effect. Needs aren't met --> seek attention elsewhere. It's just that sometimes, the betrayed don't realize what they did (failure to meet spouse's needs) until an affair has already evolved.<P>And, is a marriage really about "power" anyway?

I would NEVER NEVER EVER want to be the betrayer!! I WOULD NEVER want to hurt my W or ANYONE THIS MUCH!! I'd rather suffer it myself!! <BR> If I had done this to my W she would have killed me the OW and HERSELF!! Really, sad but true. She even had the nerve to get mad at me for calling an old girlfriend SINCE she's been living with OM!! I called her because I WAS OM in HER marriage 20 years ago!! I wanted to find out how HER H got her back and how her marriage was now!! (she lied about her and H of course and I thought I was saving her!!) <BR>Well, I guess I reaped what I sowed!!) I have an REAL appreciation for the PAIN I caused and am SOOOO sorry. (I was single and 24) <BR> The one thing I remember was the time I ran into her H after they got back. I felt SOOO bad I asked him to hit me. He said "No, you live with what you did" <P>OOOOCCCCHHHHHHHH!! Unfortunately, I had the opportunity to say the same to my W's OM!! What goes around..... God PLEASE forgive me, I knew NOT what I did!!<BR><P>------------------<BR>desperate<P>

Curiosity,<P>I had been the betrayer in my first marriage and the betrayed in the second. Hey, what comes around goes around. No dought about it. <P>Being the betrayer in the first relationship the "affair" lasted a whole 9 months and fell apart. I left behind two children and a W who loved me dearly. This is time I will never regain. It took some time before I actually realized what I had done and it was too late. I wasn't ready to be a H. Got married at 20. Not an excuse, maybe a reason. We didn't make a good "married couple" and we didn't know how to fix it. <P>Being the betrayed in the second marriage and the affair is still going on. I left behind a W who loved me dearly, waffling now, but I still didn't know how to love her completely. I wasn't ready to be a H. Got married at 34. Not an excuse, maybe a reason. We didn't make a good "married couple" and didn't know how to fix it. Now I do. Too late, maybe.<P>Being on both sides of the fence they both suck worse than life itself. <P>I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy.<P>Wishing us all the Best.<P>Medic, yeah I'm still here.

This is a strange question. I would rather be neither, but if I chose one, I guess "betrayed." It sucks to be the betrayed, but at least I don't ever have to live with the shame of ever breaking my marriage vows or abandoning my marriage/family. Even though my H's affair was brief, it still happenned, and that's something my H will be labeled for, for the rest of his life.

I would rather be dead than either the betrayer or the betrayed.<P>With respect to "equal time" with each parent - kids need both their parents all the time. They need to see them as a team, a team that is committed to raising good, moral children together.<BR>- How can it be good for kids to spend half their them with the OW/OM, setting an example every day of selfishness and cruelty.<BR>- If my H had joint custody, the children would not receive enough child support, even if I worked full time, for us to afford a place big enough for the seven of us, and if my H were living in his own place instead of with her, he also would not be able to afford a place big enough.<BR>

I certainly don't want to be either one. Being betrayed is so awful but I couldn't live with myself being a betrayer either. But, early on I was really mad that my H got to have an affair and I didn't...I know that sounds really dumb, but it's how I felt. I was 8 1/2 months pregnant, feeling very neglected and pretty undesirable. Boy, would it have been nice to be desored and told how wonderful I was and adored like the OW felt for H. Really pissed me off early on.<P>------------------<BR>Joan <P>"Turn your wounds into wisdom..." That really cool black gal who was on Oprah all summer.<BR>

I've been both. My first H was a sex addict, but I didn't divorce him. I wanted him to get help, and he decided divorcing me was easier than addressing his problems. I cheated on my second husband. Very brief affair. It is much worse to be the betrayer than the betrayed, from my experience. I confessed, and desperately tried everything in my power to fix the problems in my marriage. My second husband decided that divorcing me was easier than addressing the problems in our marriage and in himself. The only difference is that noone cares how hard I tried to save my marriage, and my H gets to be the "hero" no matter what he decided. In either case (betrayer or betrayed) it is much easier to move on if you don't have a conscience and have little or no willingness to take a look at how you have contributed to the state of the marriage. Finding a new person and starting from scratch is no guarantee that you will never experience pain. That is the beauty and tragedy of marriage. There is beauty in the effort and struggle required to maintain a happy marriage. The tragedy is that this effort and struggle often involves quite a bit of pain.

TheStudent,<BR>You said the betrayed gets to be the "hero" - that is certainly not how I feel. Not only my H, but lawyers (the ones I have talked to and his), counselors - all of them act like I am the unreasonable one, that it is perfectly reasonable for him to decide he was unhappy and find somebody new. Both of the counselors we saw said virtually nothing negative to him. One of the counselors had the audacity to tell me that there were no bad guys in this situation, after all we seemed to have trouble communicating. The betrayer, as long as they keep betraying, gets whatever he wants, with absolutely no negative consequences. I wish sometimes I could just get rid of my conscience too.

Nellie1,<BR>Sounds like you need some new counselors. I've been to various counselors and it is rare to find ones that will challenge a patient. Most of them have this feel-good, I'm ok-you're ok attitude that doesn't seem to help anyone. The fact that they can't point out to your H that his continued infidelity is obviously detrimental to your marriage is a serious flaw on their part. I, personally, couldn't forgive someone who had no remorse and showed no effort to change. What I mean by being the "hero" is that my H could tell everyone he divorced me because I cheated on him and everyone would go "oh, how terrible. You were right to dump her". As long as he didn't have sex with someone else,then for some reason he is this great husband? Some how, he gets to relinquish all responsibility for his part in the failure of our marriage because *I* cheated. That is what I mean by being the "hero". And if the betrayed stay in the marriage, people think they are oh-so-noble too. It is a no-win situation for the betrayer.

I'd much rather be the betrayer. If my husband had cheated on me after treating me like crap for so long, I really believe I would have killed him. I'd have been one of those people you read about in the newspapers.<P>Having cheated is not something I'm proud of, but I don't feel the tremendous amount of guilt some of you express either. It happened. I can't change it. And I refuse to beat myself up over it. It was the end result of a series of events. I regret ALL of the events, not just the infidelity on my part.<P>As far as "having power" goes, sadly it's true, I do have more power in this marriage than I ever had before, but that's only because I didn't have ANY before. The balance of power in our marriage was way lopsided. My husband said and did whatever he wanted. Whenever I'd mention my concerns, my husband blew me off or yelled and cursed me. Now, he listens. I'm sorry that it took me having an affair to balance things out, but like I said, I can't change that or take it back. If there had been a way to get to this point without the infidelity, hey, I'd have loved it. But there wasn't. I tried EVERYTHING to get him to see and hear me.<P>Some of you who've been betrayed just do not understand what it's like to have your back up against the wall with no hope in sight. I'm not saying this is the way it was in your marriages, but this was the way it was in mine. I had all but given up on ever being happy in my marriage. When OM came along, I selfishly took what I thought was my last chance at a little happiness. I'm not proud of it, but I will never beat up on myself about it. My husband beat me down enough throughout our marriage. Now it's time to start loving and nurturing myself and now that my husband is finally cooperating I have a chance to try to love and nurture him too.

PodPerson....Your views are really sad. I can't believe you justify your affair just because the outcome is that your marriage is improving. There are better ways to improve your marriage rather than to have an affair...Even if you say you tried EVERYTHING.....it still doesn't mean you should go out and have an affair to get your H's attention....

NoTrust,<P>How can you say my views are "really sad"? You don't know me, you don't know my life. What audacity of you to judge me. I didn't "just go out" and have an affair to get my husband's attention. That has to be one of the dumbest statements I've read on this forum so far. For your information, I was married and faithful for 20 years prior to my affair, so how the hell can you say I just "up and went out and had an affair? You missed about 20 years of stuff in between. Unbelievable! My affair was the result of lots of stuff, two decades of stuff that neither my husband nor I am proud of. It wasn't my attempt to make my marriage better. It was my attempt to get some happiness. But the outcome has brought all the demons out and I'M GLAD IT DID! I can't take back what happened and I do believe it all happened for a reason.<P>Judge me all you want. I don't know your deal, nor do I care to know if you are going to respond in such a judgemental way. I live my life the best I know how. I made mistakes, but of course you must be one of those perfect people in the world. I'm just glad my husband doesn't walk around holier than thou like you. He was with me, so he knows what happened in this marriage over the years. And I AM glad that the outcome has been the way it is. I am glad and I am thankful. My husband is glad that I didn't have a chance to fall deeply in love with OM and that we have a chance to save our marriage. <P>I really don't care what you think of me or my views. Keep your flaming judgements to yourself.<p>[This message has been edited by PodPerson (edited October 24, 1999).]

curiosity,<P>First off, I hate this question. I have been on both sides and they both suck. I wanted to die, kill myself, kill my H, kill the OP... it's just the most terrible place to be no matter which side you're on.<P>NoTrust,<P>PodPerson may not have heard your views before, but I sure have. I have also used the "getting my H's attention" reasoning. And you know what? It works. I got my H's attention. Yes, there might have been other ways, but let me list some of them I tried:<P>Gaining and losing over 100 pounds<BR>Going on and off anti-depressants<BR>Going on and off anti-anxiety pills<BR>Starting and stopping smoking<BR>Drinking binges<BR>Therapy by myself when he wouldn't go<BR>And of course, TALKING TO HIM, CRYING, BEGGING<P>None of them worked. So, not to be mean at all (and I'm very serious, I'm not out to hurt you at all, we all have enough of that) but I finally had enough and because of that I became vulnerable and did something unthinkably stupid. I had an affair.<P>PodPerson,<P>I was married 19 yrs. at the time of my affair. My H had cheated on me first, 12 yrs. ago, and I could never forget it, especially after it happened over and over (3 times, all emotional). I appreciate your honesty, but I don't think your kind of raw emotion can be understood. Like when you said... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Some of you who've been betrayed just do not understand what it's like to have your back up against the wall with no hope in sight. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That is EXACTLY how I felt. As I'm sure you are aware by now, there is NEVER an excuse to have an affair. The idea is to leave first, have relationships later. I know it, I believe it, but I haven't lived it lately. Whether we have the best reasons in the world or not, it's wrong. I know you agree because I've read your posts. I guess I'm rambling... sorry... <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

As much as it hurts I would have to choose betrayed, because even if I could "get away with it" the guilt would stay with me forever. I would never want to inflict the pain of an affair on anyone.<P>My wife also thought her back was against the wall with no hope in sight. Her affair has been a wake up call, but that has not been her intent. She is glad that I have woken up but says it is too late. She is not a bad person but having an affair is not justified in my opinion as a wake up call. <P>Every spouse deserves happiness and should make every attempt to wake up the sleeping spouse. When all else fails the only sledgehammer that I can think of that could give the wake-up call is a set of divorce papers.

Sheryl,<P>Thanks for showing some understanding. That is why I rarely post on this forum. There are just too many people here who flame and judge a total stranger based on THEIR situation and I think that is so very wrong. No one has lived each other's lives. I'm aware that many of the betrayed here were in the same situation I was in for many years, only to have their spouse be the one who cheated on them! Many of the betrayed here are the ones who tried to get their spouses to open up, only to have their spouses cheat. I sympathize with them and that is why I say I think I would have killed my husband if that had happened.<P>I don't know how much plainer I can make this. I know it was very wrong to commit adultery. No doubt about it. But what am I supposed to do about that? I can't take it back. I can't wave a magic wand and make it so it never happened. It happened. And both my husband and me understand HOW and WHY it happened. It's a no brainer. We've both made dreadful mistakes in this marriage, but after 22 years we are still together and we haven't given up. You know, if the idea is to save and maintain marriages, then why do so many people say, "you should have divorced first......."? That is something I just do not get. Had I divorced my husband it would have been over. I'm glad I didn't divorce him and that we have another chance.<P>Things are slow going, but I am so grateful that at least I have his cooperation now. NO, I DIDN'T HAVE THE AFFAIR TO GET HIS ATTENTION! But like Sheryl said, it did get his attention, and I am glad it did. Now we have a chance for a much better marriage we didn't have before. Sometimes bad things happen for a reason, and sometimes bad things show the way to good things. Like it or not, that's what happened in my situation, and I'm not going to beat myself up about it or question it.

PP<P>I hope you don't think I was judging you. If you and your H are happy and making progress that's what counts. More power to you!<P>There are many people like your H and me that need a wake-up call, I was trying to say that divorce papers could act as a wake-up call, not that a divorce was a solution to a seemingly impossible situation. Divorce papers have woken up a betraying spouse, why not use the same process to wake up a slumbering spouse? Divorce papers do not mean the marriage is over! <P>

Awoken,<P>I see what you're saying. But, like I said, I had the affair because I was looking for happiness, not to wake my husband up. So, issuing him divorce papers was the farthest thing from my mind at the time. I'd threatened divorce many times in the past, and you know what he said, "go for it." That's right. I don't believe in trying to bluff someone, especially when my husband is the type to call my bluff. If I was going to get papers, then I had better been prepared to go through with it. And I wasn't.<P>What you propose would only be thought of if it were part of some big, calculated plan, and that's not how these things usually happen. They just happen, and we allow them to happen out of selfishness, or a chance at a little happiness. If I had things to do all over again, sure, I'd do them differently. But you know what? If my husband had things to do all over again, he'd do things differently too and treat me with some respect. But none of us can go back and change things. All we can do is go forward.

PP<P>you're so right divorce should never be used as a threat only if you're prepared to follow through. <P>Most affairs happen by accident when the betrayer is not looking for an affair but emotional happiness and the affair has usually begun before the participants realise it. By that time I'm sure the only thoughts of divorce are so that the two affairees can live a life happily ever after.<P>I was considering the case where one spouse was trying all they could to fix the marriage and their SO was still not responding and there was no-one else involved, then divorce papers become the last resort and divorce may be the proper outcome.<P>Everything seems simpler in hindsight, I'll never know what else may have really woken me up.<P>------------------<BR>It's always darkest before the dawn