I'm guessing that these are the lines that are causing the controversy. It's important to note that the program will work if BOTH spouses follow it 100%, and that's the catch. Most people, including our original poster, are/were in situations where only one spouse followed the program, so it's only logical that success rates would be a whole lot lower. BUT (and this is a big but) it should also be noted that there are many, many situations where even having one spouse follow the principles made a huge difference. I'm not sure Mrs. Linus and I would be in R mode right now if I hadn't found this place and read books like SAA and HNHN. Following Plan A worked for me (I'm glad to be one of the 15%, Mel ). The Dr. rocks, no doubt about that.

Yep! It's much like a diet in that you have to actually USE it for it to work!

I had a woman once tell me with a straight face about my diet "DID YOU KNOW IF YOU QUIT THAT DIET YOU GAIN ALL THE WEIGHT BACK??" She really did say that. I am not kidding. When I asked her if she actually KNEW of a diet that would work when you aren't on it, she gave me a very blank look.

Anyway, Marriage Builders is just like any other program, one has to actually work it in order for it to work.

I would like to lend some qualified support to Krazy�s commentary above. Yes, his analysis may seem harsh, rigid, and even contrary to MB�s purpose (and it some respects all of that is true).

Before I continue, let me state the following caveats for the record:
1. I have tremendous respect for the work and insights of Dr. Harley.
2. I have tremendous admiration for all the good people here who dispense excellent advice based on MB principles.
3. I congratulate and salute all those here, former-WSs included, who did the hard work and recovered improved, healthy marriages after the tragedy of an affair.
4. I fully believe that Dr. Harley�s plans and techniques are the best way to accomplish the above�if the BS wants that and if the appropriate conditions present themselves.

I do think it behooves all of us here to recognize that Dr. Harley�s/MB�s goal is NOT fighting for �marriage at any cost no matter what�. In fact, upon discovery of the affair, the BS has every right�legally and morally�to unilaterally proceed immediately to divorce and never look back�EVEN IF the WS is truly repentant and the affair is truly over. Dr. Harley himself has stated that he would choose immediate Plan D if his wife ever strayed�that�s quite an endorsement from a man who is clearly an expert on this subject. (We can debate whether this applies to a pure-EA situation or not, but it surely does once ANY KIND OF SEXUAL ACTIVITY has transpired and we all know that the vast majority of affairs are PAs whether admitted or not.)

A great many elements must occur, within a reasonable amount of time, for a real recovery to become possible:
The affair must end�permanently and completely.
The WS must wrestle their personal demons to the ground�both internally and WITH THE BS.
The WS must openly, honestly, sincerely, and humbly confess and repent.
The WS must learn and grow a great deal as a person. No blame-shifting or �sweeping under the rug�.
The couple must emotionally re-connect, re-value each other via ENs, POJA, EPs, etc.
Neither the pre-conditions nor the affair must ever be repeated by either.

All in all, it is�not impossible�but a fairly tall order that requires tremendous long-suffering, effort, and introspection in a MUTUALLY-EMPATHETIC fashion. It is way, way more than just �saying sorry and coming home�.

If you newly suspect or know about your spouse�s adultery, you have to find out all you can right away�with a solid knowledge of MB principles. Find out about the OP�s life-situation and potential exposure-targets (hire a PI if needed). Assess your WS�s level of emotional-addiction (he/she will tell you if you understand what to listen for and how to interpret it). Once you have the info, I would urge a recently-BS to take a hard, rational look at the situation. Echoing Krazy71, a BS should imho strongly consider immediate divorce rather than wasting years of their life under the following circumstances:

1. The affair happened within the first 5 years of the marriage.
Don�t waste your time with a WS like this�he/she never took the marriage seriously from the get-go. A no-brainer.

2. This isn�t your WS�s first inappropriate extra-marital relationship.
See #1. Someone repeatedly distracted by anything shiny on the side of the road is not marriage-material. Another no-brainer.

3. The exposure potential is not very �target rich�.
If OP�s career/job can�t be jeopardized, if OP is unmarried or already divorcing, if family members �go along� or are detached, you don�t have much pressure to bring to bear on breaking the affair.

4. Your WS is clearly emotionally-addicted to the OP.
The more irrational, fantasy-driven, scapegoating-towards-you, and defending-the-OP your WS is, the more deeply he/she is addicted. They are illogically and powerfully attached to the OP. You are, at the very least, looking at a looooong road.

5. (get ready, this may be controversial) Your WS is � a WW!
Unless you catch the relationship in its infancy (rare), she will be heavily-addicted. She won�t give her OM up voluntarily (much more rare for a WW than a WH). The only realistic hope is to get him to dump her via exposure pressure that threatens something more important to him than her (career, finances, his marriage/kids). If #3 is present, you are hosed. I have seen many, many emotionally-addicted, active WW affairs both here on MB and in real life and I can tell you it is vanishingly rare to break the affair and save the marriage unless the OM dumps the WW in fairly short order. The usual result, like with Krazy, MissMyFamily, PSUBIKER, and myself, is that the WW is a �not-worth-it-lost-cause� who stays tightly glued to her lover, no matter what the sacrifice and how big a slimeball-loser the guy is. Think hard about it, BHs, cuz divorce is basically just Plan B without the added pain of (a likely futile) prolonged disappointment-limbo.

My 2 cents from the School of Hard Knocks�

1. My H's EA started 1 week after our wedding. Actually, it was with an ex-girlfriend that he never quite got over, so it was really going on before we got married. I just didn't know it.

2. Can't speak to that one. My H had one very long-term A and I had one fairly short-term A.

3. Again, not my situation, so I will leave it alone.

4. My H was so addicted to the OP that he had an on-again, off-again EA with her for 10 years. He'd been "in love" with her since he was 15.

5. I am a FWW. I did give up the OM voluntarily. He D'd his wife and asked me to marry him and I still chose to stay with my H and work on my M. I stuck by that decision, even after discovering that I was pregnant with the OM's baby 2 weeks after ending the A. There are a few other FWW's on this site who ended the A on their own and didn't have to be "dumped" by the OM.

My H and I are very happily in R now.

See, the problem with blanket statements like these is that they just don't work. There is no one-answer fits all. People are individuals and not stereotypes. For every "rule" you can find, there are plenty of exceptions.

Really, the only person who can decide whether or not they want to fight for their M is the BS. To issue a blanket statement, such as "every BS should go right to Plan D" or BS's with a wayward that falls into certain categories should go right to Plan D, are wrong. You can have an opinion as to what is right for you, but telling other people what to do is wrong.

I sometimes wonder if people are posting while they're drunk or high, or just in an ecstasy of bitterness.

To any newbies who might have felt discouraged by Krazy's post, consider the following instead.

Infidelity is an appalling trauma. Few of us are prepared for this to happen to us; we're not equipped to deal with it. We start off much too small for this overwhelming disaster.

Straight away, we have to make a choice - stay small, or grow big. Growing big - which means developing self-honesty, defending boundaries, fighting down panic, enduring injustice - is painful and difficult. Staying small - which usually means amputating the problem marriage - requires only the effort to get through the divorce.

Stick around here for a few years, and you'll notice that those who choose to grow don't lose out in the long run. The marriage may not recover; they may decide they don't WANT to recover the marriage, but they come out of the whole deal a much more enlightened, wise and self-aware person than they would ever have been otherwise. They have a much better chance of success in a subsequent marriage, IF they've done the hard work on themselves.

Stick around, and you'll notice another pattern. A lot of people who ran away from infidelity in a previous marriage end up with yet another unfaithful spouse. If you haven't worked out how you ended up at d-day the first time round, chances are good that you'll repeat the same patterns, and end up with the same result.

MB is not a magic formula for fixing marriages. It's a tool you can use to build a healthy marriage - IF you're both prepared to do the work, and IF there's enough emotional health available to build on. That's not the case for every broken marriage, and not every marriage can or should be saved.

Don't be put off making the effort just because there's a possibility you won't end up with a 'fixed' marriage. You won't lose out, whatever happens.

The tragedy is to fudge the work, end up with a divorce anyway, then complain the whole program didn't work. Shame on you, Krazy.

TA

In many ways you DID buy a lottery ticket. How? The outcome was not ONLY due to you performing the MB program. You have to have a spouse who is willing to respond.

So in that sense, you DID buy a lottery ticket.

There are many who do the work, and don't get the same result. I've asked the questions, what percentage of BS who do the program under MB professional coaching end up with a spouse who ends her affair, and gets with the program?

The BS's work while important, is not the only factor in this. There is the "lottery ticket" factor where they have a WW who is willing to "wake up" and see the BH working to save the marriage.

Dr Harley will tell you, few do. As it has been said over and over again, it's far less likely for a WW to return than it is for a WH to return.

Remember, we are talking about his observations of his clients marriages. Those men are doing the work just like BWs do the work.

After having tried the MB program to win a WW back to the marriage, I too would not advise a BH to spend more than 30 days on such a program, if even that.

Why? Because in most cases, if she doesn't end the affair and apologize immediately like the long time lurker said in this thread, there is little chance that she'll return to the marriage.

If she didn't come out and say, "I'm not happy." in a simple, unambiguous statement before she decided an affair was the best course of action, she is not a safe partner. She is an abuser, period.

If the WW doesn't end her abuse and seek help immediately, then let her go. Cut her from the team.

I've gone so far as to make sure I'm not having any more kids, I feel so strongly about this.

I believe in the MB program to build a good marriage. However, given my prior experience and what I've learned, I would not advise most men to seek to win back a WW. Spend your resources on the legal fight.

Until women stop filing 2/3rds of all divorces, and if you read what Dr H says, he cannot convince those who are actually betrayed or abused to file. Therefore, the vast majority of those filing are NOT fleeing an unfaithful or abusive husband. As long as this is the trend, as long as women feel they can just bail out of a marriage if they are not happy in numbers that are 2x to 3x's as often as men do, and as long as men are falsely portraited as the ones who abandon their families when the numbers indicate otherwise, that it's the mothers who are ending their marriages in numbers far, far greater, I will never advise a man put much effort into winning a wayward wife back.

It's just not worth it in the current cultural climate.

6. The adultery went on longer than the 6 sigma 2 years (from SAA). Like, oh, say 10 maybe 12 years.

Well, my H voluntarily wrote a NC letter to the OW and cut off all contact after a 10-year EA.

You can add me to your list of graduates of the school.

I'd give it from 30 minutes to 30 days for a wayward wife to end the affair, put verifiable no-contact into place. If it hasn't happened by then, no way am I going to do another 6+ month plan A to win a WW who apparently has poor boundaries and a sense of entitlement so large that she feels justified in having an affair over say using the POJA to negotiate for her needs to be met in some specific way.

There we have it. The contraindication.

If both spouses are adulterers recovery is guaranteed, 100%.

Why didn't someone tell me this earlier?

Well put.

This is a critical point. This program can�t work unless BOTH parties engage in recovering the marriage. There is only so much a BS can do and if the WS won�t get on board, there is no program in the world that can force a reluctant spouse to engage against her will.

And Marriage Builders addresses those situations by prescribing PLAN B. Dr Harley has addressed this situation ad nauseaum in his writings on Plan B and in his articles about �When to Call it Quits,� �Unconditional Love,� etc.

Sometimes the definition of success is DIVORCE and I think that is important to remember.

That being said, I have seen so very many recovered marriages over the years that I think it is a huge mistake not to try [unless it is an especially abusive spouse]. Folks usually know within a year if a marriage is going to work or not.

And some of you guys are married to some of the most heartless, manipulative, entitled witches I have ever seen����and are usually OBLIVIOUS to it. For some reason these women tend to marry the gullible, conflict avoider men and that is where it gets bad. Look how many clueless fools who show up here every month who have left their own homes to give his cheating wife some �space.� MY GOD. That is about as clueless as you can get. Those men actually need protection from women because they don�t stand a chance. I am going to start charging you MEN commission for having to use my CLUE BAT on these dudes.

Never left my home. It didn't matter. Same result. She was a prior stay at home mom, so I had ZERO chance of custody.

Couldn't find a lawyer who would fight for custody against a stay at home mom. Marital fidelity doesn't matter.

So in most jurisdictions, it's not a fair fight for the betrayed husband.

Just don't have kids, that's my new motto.

First, this was not stated as your opinion, it was given as advice for ALL BS'.

What is true about your statement and I will say universially true, is that if a BS is a person that does not have the ability to forgive, then they should do what Krazy is suggesting. Forgiveness is giving something something to someone that does not deserve it. If you earned something you don't need forgiveness.

Krazy, I found your advice more than a little disengenious. First you are by your own admission a person that cannot forgive. Second, you have no clue what your future brings, but there are worse than a cheating W trust me on that. I hope to God you never have to stand over your child as they go into surgery with less than a 50/50 chance of coming out. Or be told by your Dr. to give them a last kiss before they take them in.

I have been cheated on by a fiance and I was crushed, well over 40 years later I still remember it and can feel it if I seek that feeling . I walked partly because I was clueless. But, I can tell you there ARE worse feelings and you having children better get on your knees and pray you never experience them.

You left because you cannot forgive and that implies that there was no chance for you to save your marriage. To tell other BS' that they are best to just walk is leaving a big part of the story out. It is their call and the call of the Ws.

So given this I don't care much for your opinion or advice as it only goes to a subset of folks

JL

PS: My fiance was murdered a few years later by her then boyfriend. I have spent over 40 years wondering if I had tried whould she still be alive. I'll never know and my life has been much better than good. So I don't have any complaints, but still I wonder. I worry about a man, that is so certain that he doesn't wonder.

Writer,

Of course there isn�t. That is why my echoing of Krazy�s original post was clearly marked �qualified� and why the word �consider� was used with regard to Plan D. I sincerely congratulate you and your husband on your R. But�

1. Wow�that was a courageous choice you made and I am glad it worked out for you. I doubt anyone would blame someone for divorcing/annulling a marriage that was betrayed only 1 week into its tenure. What would you have done if it had been a PA? Would that have changed your mind? Frankly, EA or PA, an affair only 1 week after the wedding is not something that most people would ever WANT to recover from.

2. Well, you can speak to it as your H had 2 affairs. Again, I salute your courage and applaud your success, but multiple affairs is (and should be) a deal-breaker for most people.

3. OK

4. Hard for me to understand how someone could tolerate 10 years of betrayal, disloyalty, and disrespect like that from someone who pledged to be faithful till death do us part, but I congratulate you both on your very miraculous recovery.

5. Amazing. Amazingly uncommon. I have heard of a few fWWs here who have voluntarily dumped their OM. I believe them even if sometimes I wonder how truly and deeply emotionally-addicted they were at the time. I have seen 6 such affairs over the years in real life. All 6 women divorced their husbands for their lovers despite their husbands� desire to save the marriages (good men are very devoted�even to unworthy women). None of them left their OM voluntarily. 4 of the 6 affair-married. 2 of the 6 were dumped post-divorce by the OM. Of the 4 that affair-married, 3 of them became re-divorced within 5 years.

Exceptions exist to every �rule�.
Common things are common though.
It�s up to each individual to analyze their situation and decide the risk/benefit ratio for themselves.

I believe wholeheartedly in marriage and HATE DIVORCE. Unfortunately, while it takes 2 to marry, it only takes one to cheat and divorce. Wasting years of your life in limbo trying to reconcile with an unrepentant cheater & liar is a tough prospect to swallow sometimes.

SDWC Man: ??? My H only had one A, one OW. I call it an EA, since they never had sex, but they did do other things of a physical/intimate nature, so there was some PA elements as well. I never know quite what to call it.

The fact that there are exceptions to the rule is the very thing that invalidates Krazy's original approach - that absolutely EVERY BS should choose D, that no M can be R after an A, that somehow, the BS is settling for less than a happy, healthy M if they choose to stay with their WS. I'm sorry, but I just don't buy that. Just because that was HIS experience, doesn't make it everyone else's. It's the blanket statements here that are really bothering me.

EE,

That was a superb post in describing the quandary a devoted, honorable, �heart-in-the-right-place� BH sadly faces when he�s has a fogged-out, completely insane, stubbornly unrepentant WW on his hands. These women are a different animal that usually even a man of Dr. Harley�s considerable talents can�t reach.

Thank you so much for tackling this politically-incorrect topic in such a penetrating and accurate way. Hardworking, noble, decent, faithful, loyal, marriage-minded men are FEW AND FAR BETWEEN out there and usually these WWs find that out the hard way�years later after they have wrecked marriages, families, friendships, and children all over temporary �feelings�.

BTW, its over 2/3rds�woman file for 70% of divorces in the USA and very rarely is that because their husband beat the crap out of them, gambled away their life-savings, or snorted cocaine every night. It�s usually because she�s cheating and thinks she�s found her new �soulmate�, selling-out everything she has and believes in in the process. Somehow, our society seems to view male infidelity as evil ("he should have kept it in his pants") and female infidelity as understandable ("she just fell in love").

The double-standard is disgusting, especially since WWs reconcile their marriages with substantially less frequency than WHs do.

Just catching up on this thread.

FWIW, in my sitch, which is severely complicated with an OC and my personal infertility struggle for years, it is easier to STAY.

Staying means that the "world" continues to think our M is perfect. We are all smiles on the outside. Staying means I am honoring my commitment (even though H chose not to). To date, I cannot face the agony of disappointing our friends and extended family. Granted, I feel we are well on the road to recovery.....So am I staying for the right reasons? Likely not.

AND..........statistically speaking, IF I did leave and remarry, the "statistical" chance that new H would be a cheater is likely. So why not stick it out with one I love and have a history with? Why take a chance of having to walk this journey a second time with a new H?

Rip me, shred me, cut me to pieces, but unless H totally falls off the deep end and continues his wayward behavior, I will fight this fight. I will stay in this marriage. I will not go down that easy.