Well said, atena.

I know only to well how you feel!!!!
It is somehow comforting to know that I am not alone in my feelings and that I am not going crazy.
But I totally agree, I am in this H*LL based on the choices he made without my consent.
And now all I can seem to do is try to figure out what happened? All the while realizing I will not get the answer in a profound epiphany.
I like the analogy used about the from - jumping from the boiling water, but cooking to death in a slow heat.
I like many others let life get in the way and was to busy to pay full attention to my WH, then somebody else did.
Now here we are.

The betrayed spouse is definetly not the blame. I don't care if I wasn't a good wife, I don't care if I wasn't meeting his needs emotionally, physicall or socially. The bottom line is 2 wrongs don't make 1 right. No matter if the marriage was in shambles, he still doesn't have a right to go out and have an affair. I mean honestly, do you think that will make the marriage better.

Well, my Husband at one point stated that in the past, I've always accused him of cheating. Boy did I let him have it for that statement.

I told him so whenever someone accuses you of something, you have to automatic become it. I said if someone accused me of being a slut, whore or prostitute, and I know I'm not one. Does that mean I am going to become one. If someone calls me a thief, drug dealer or con-artist, do I become one just because I've been accused of being one.

I too am not taking responsibility for being where I am. It's the dumb choice of my H that has us where we are today. Now he wishes he could take it back and he can't. He wishes he could erase it, but he can't. I always tell him when he complains about something I've said, I inform he that he should have thought about all of this before he did what he did. No pitty from me buddy.

Hello,
I have been on here tonight posting my own situation, and while looking this site over, the posts and the articles, I feel I would like to respond to this.
No one I doubt has the answer as to what makes a good and lasting marriage, or why anyone does get to a place or site like this. Everyone has their answer as to what has worked or not worked for them, because, unlike what is thrown at all of us by Madison Ave, or otherwise, we are all unique as individuals and couples.
I just posted my situation, and just simply in my humble opinion, I can relate what had worked for my wife and I, up until recently, and after 41 years.
I believe for us it was simply dedication. In the simple dictionary in my mind that translates into a lot of things, but mainly devotion. That does involve some reality and also some fantasy in this day and age, but it worked for us. It means that, if you are the husband, you come home from work and simply take time to listen to your partner, give your spare time to her, then just enjoy each other and being together against the world (as we did), and just love her. And it means baring yourself even it it means you feel vulnearable. For a wife, it means both honor And dedication. From my experience and from my wife in the past, it means a gracious and sincere welcome back home (too many people have died like in an auto accdent without that loving welcome or goodbye). It means that your wife believes in you as a warrior. Belive me folks, men still do have to be warriors. Just look at ways you need to protect your families...financial, schools and parenting, fontinuring education and development, and of course the ocasional leering of some POS who is almost devouring her in his mind only. It means respect from a wife, not matter what occupation her husband is in, simply for the sake of that he is doing the best and honorable thing. It means a wife simply loves her husband willingly for his loving and protecting the children she gave to him.
This is aside, but I guess after reading some on this site for a few weeks due to my own situation, I am stonished at how many men simply abandon whatever dedication they may feel they had for their wives. When I first read all those reactions I have to admit that was so discouraging to me. I am age 67, and yes my wife recently had an affair, but I most certainly guarantte ya that I would not run and howl with my tail between my legs if I was younger and found my wife in an affair, still loved her and wanted futures for us and our kids! She may be angry with me now after placing her in a nursing home, but at least I know she respects me, and does care. I am still a warrior!

Tom I haven't read your thread, but I'll try to do so soon. I just wanted to say that MB, you may realize, does NOT condone the above. Plan A, Plan B definitely don't resemble abandonment or running away. They requre incredible strength and dedication. Alas, I'm running, but thanks to MB it's certainly not with my tail between my legs.

Anyway, sorry you're here.
~optimism

26years and others.

This site can be about tough love. This is one of those posts where tough love is presented in quantity. And with the best of intentions.
_______________

Well, let me join the party. I am a betrayed spouse. It has been five years, almost, since D Day, when someone reached up my preponderance and ripped out my heart. I "Enjoyed" a double betrayal in that the OM was my closest relative, the last survivor besides me and my kid.

I can feel the pain to this day. Oh yea, it isn't an obsession, that would be stupid. But from time to time, not every day, something will trigger me and I feel the pain one more time until my built in defenses defuse that memory, until the next time. Adultery is the gift that keeps on giving, and giving. But if you follow Harley, it gets better, much better, with time, study and work.

As all of you know, the hurt is at a level that cannot be described.

Ok, so I come here in MB and study. I comment, get comments, post, work, read books, read almost the whole site and every word that Harley has ever written I could get my hands on. I studied other therapists and even corresponded with one who was doing some research that interested me.

I wanted to know why. It was an obsession.

I have learned the 15 steps, studied entitlement, predators, developed a theory on brain chemicals and generally made a pest out of my self to get any information available. I studied my wife like a demented and focused graduate student trying to earn a PHD. She tolerated it because I did so in a kind way that also promoted our communication.

Along the way, I figured out what happened to me and what happened to HER, which may or may not apply to all and sundry since there are more than one way someone gets in trouble through the completely stupid act of adultery and betrayal.

I also stumbled across some interesting bits and pieces as well and some made me sick to my stomach. I also learned something simple. A marriage is like a car: it must be maintained to give you good service over the years, and it must be maintained by both partners.

Now it is that gnirlos, who I consider a really sharp person has posted:


That is the absolute truth in far fewer words than I am using here. But bear with me, I am going somewhere.

Along the way of studying WHY, I also learned that many folks who wondered that same question, could have reached into Dr. Harley's bag and found the answer. He says the seeds of adultery are in all of us. I believe him. So what does that tell you about maintaining a marriage?

He also details how to keep it from happening or happening again, with a proven method for a better marriage. That is when I discovered another detail, one that made me very, very sad. Betrayed spouses were not learning. They were complaining. And some of them were, dare I say it, abusive. And entitled.

Entitlement is a big deal explaining why some people commit adultery. I hate the word. I hate it in politics and I hate it adultery and I hate it in interpersonal relationships, especially marriage and I hate it in business. It is a hateful word: entitlement.

26, I am going to respectfully pick on you. By all means tell me where I am wrong.


There are so many things wrong with the above post I don't even know where to start. But I will try.

Remember gnirlos words. Go back and read them. The state of the marriage is 50% owned by each partner.

26 is being abusive. She feels entitled to be abusive. There are love busters and so many other violations of Harley doctrine, the whole post made me cringe. And from what she says, she was abusive before he had his affair! While it is no excuse, it makes her husband's affair somewhat understandable. Don't beat me up too bad for saying that, I was making a point.

Ok, 26, two wrongs don't make a right. And you obviously have used his affair to insure that you 1) will beat on him to control him forever because you can and 2) will use that as an excuse to NOT be a better partner even though you own 50% of the marriage and said you were a lousy partner before he had his affair.

That is two wrongs, where is the right? The right could be a good marriage instead of the one you have. But you don't seem to be reaching for it. Not at least with the methods you detail in your post.

Harley has the answer to the question that 26 posted for the thread. He says that the seed of adultery is in all of us. And he has a specific plan to bullet proof our marriages. And his methods work, if they are used. And his methods create a marriage environment that is just plain great, if a person wants it to be. How many betrayed actually try to work the plan? How many read the material?

See, a betrayed spouse is presented specific choices as part of the recovery process. You can learn from the devastating experience and be a better person, or you can use what happened to engage in a pity party for which I have no pity. Yes, I do have sympathy. Heck I have been there. I own the T-Shirt. I have horns on my head. And they itch and I felt humiliated and all of it that the betrayed on here know so well.

But I no longer wear it like a badge.

Just as a wayward adulterer makes a choice to engage in one of the most hurtful, up close and personal attacks against someone who trusted them, something very close to rape I have been told, a betrayed spouse also has choices. If you are here on Harley's site, the learning is free and you can use what is here to be a better person and a better partner. Or, you can close your mind and be a jerk. After all, you have a good excuse, er, oops, a valid reason, right? Well no, actually. You are allowing the affair to control you instead of the other way around because you felt and feel, entitled.

And that is just like the entitlement that your spouse used to devastate you. Two wrongs don't really make a right, now do they?

Finally, 26 I picked on you. I will never forget the time my English professor used one of my essays to illustrate the incorrect use of an obscure grammar point. I felt very embarrassed. I also never committed that error again. Frankly, I could have picked up any one of a dozen other betrayed spouses on this board right now to illustrate the same point I made with your comments. Because your post was so, well, to the point, I used it.

Harley teaches those who would learn. A betrayed spouse can learn what they need to know right here and enjoy a life of intimacy and love like they never dreamed of, or not, as the case may be. Even if they divorce, they will have the tools to build that kind of relationship with the new guy or gal they meet down the road.

The choice is yours to make.

Larry

Shortly after Dday, I was perfectly willing to accept my responsibility for the state of our M, and NONE of the responsibility for the A.

Now we are 1 year out, I find myself less and less willing to accept my responsibility in what my WH felt were the problems in our M. He said I was LB�ing him and not meeting his EN, but this was after the EA began, and I didn�t have a chance � everything I did was wrong � he shut me out. He was justifying his involvement with OW to himself by pushing me away and making me out be a ballbreaker.

I think what got us here is that my WH had poor boundaries. The fantasy of the A with no responsibilities, vs. the M which came with many responsibilities (and benefits mind you).

Hence the Peter Pan costume I bought him

We all have demanding lifestyles, stressful jobs, blahblahblah ... Grow up and prioritize!

Excellent, thought provoking post, Larry. I read it twice. I have purposed that I will not let my DH's adultery define me or my M. I like to think that we started over with a new M once we got firmly on that R road and I am 50% responsible for this M.

God's Blessings,

Say

I'll say.

Thought provoking, poignant, and important at least to this BS. I'm trying desperately to defend myself throughout this episode and balance that with kindness and setting a good example for my kids. I hopped on the D train (after lettng several go by); did I do it for the right reasons, or did I feel entitled? I think the M train was on the wrong track unfortunately. But I too hate the word "entitled" and I don't want to become it. I can see how easy it might be to fall into that trap. Adn I suppose that's where the learning train lets you off.

Larry, I'm sorry, call me slow. But I don't get what you're saying. How am I being abusive? Because I defend my self from his off the wall statements. I have the right to defend myself and that's not being abusive. I simply sticking up myself. I will no longer be the little sweet soft spoke wife, I will stand up for myself and not in an abusive way. I have a voice that should behear, that wasn't heard and that's why we are in the spot we are in now. Put his errors out is what he need. I'm not going to treat him like a baby and say ok I understand you done it and not it has disappered from my memory. Not so. 26 of marriage I found out 9 days before our anniversay. One sone was getting married the same month I found out and another son got married two months later. What an uncomfortable time that was. Pitty them to much and they will go back to their same way. He need to be told what he done was a mistake. If any body is being abused it's me.

I was a great wife, he even admits that. His entire family knows, people at out church always admire our marriage. There isn't a person that knows us that wouldn't tell you that I took much care of my husband, tending to his every need. This man never wanted for nothing. I complemnting him on how handsome he is, you name it I did it. Losey wife doesn't not describe me at all. Our marriage is admired to this day by many people. Please don't shift the blame on me. Even if I was an aweful wife, thing to do is tell me so we can fix it or simply divorce me. Having an A because a woman flirted and you feel into the trip is not my thougt and I will ever stick with the statement that he should thought this through before doing it, bottome line.

26

It took guts for you to ask me after what I said. You get high marks for that.


Did you go back and read what you said in the post I held up for examination? Did you read it as I did, with none of the background you know. Two other people have responded to my post and several hundreds have read it in the count.

Do you understand the concept of Love Busters? If not, why not?

Have you read the basic concepts or surviving an affair? If not, why not?

How many other threads have you read?

Ok, forget all that. Just go back and read your post with clear eyes, like I did and then post your opinion and question again.

That you were willing to ask has gotten my attention. I will do whatever I can to help you see what I see and then you can make a decision what to do based on what you know rather than what you guess.

Larry

i'm sure i don't know everything that put us here, but hind site has been 20/20.

after several years of death and grief, changes good and bad in our family, dealing with the aftermath of losing loved ones, i was depressed for quite a while, didn't seem to really affect my family until several years into it.

him letting me slip away, me wanting to slip away. we stared living independent lives, together yet seperate. we became roomates. i had changed emotionally, physically and spiritually.

he was also going through changes himself. feeling inadequate, insecure, like a failure. we opened the door to a very fragile marriage just trying to survive.

i didn't know i was so depressed until i wasn't.....horrible cycle depression. he says he felt helpless, i felt he didn't care. thus OW

i take full responsibility for my part in the murder of our marriage, and that is what i feel like happened. yet, i don't take ownership of his decision to step outside of our marriage instead of fighting for it, me.

he let me slip under the water for the third time, and i let go of him/life raft long before that. it is painful to admit my role in all of this. but i can only hope it helps to heal it.

hear's to riding the waves...........

BBB

Can you afford to take one of the MB courses? Have you and your husband thought about it?

Larry

Larry:

that would be a great idea, but no, there is no money for that. after our daughter's wedding, and even before, we live paycheck to paycheck. real life sneak in and all the costs that come with it.

i have thought of and approached him with the at home course but there again, i would be much more vigilent. he just isn't interested in that. he can't wrap his head around a third party opinion, he says he see's no value in another person trying to solve our problems.

i am the fixer, he's the conflict avoider.

BBB

Ok, I understand. Frankly, I agree with him.


He is totally right. Nobody can fix you guy's problem except you. You must agree with him on this or there won't be any progress. Why agree? Because he is right.

Uh, small problem.

Neither of you has a PHD in psychology and decades of experience learning how to help guide folks to finding their own solutions using a road map. This is like trying to fix your computer when it breaks. If you know all about computers, you can fix it. If you don't, you can't.

Key problem with doityourself marriage repair is that you were not born with the knowledge how to do it. So the answer is to get help. But what help, pray tell? I grant that there are many therapists without a clue. So you have to find one, hopefully without much cost, who can help.

There is an answer. And the answer avoids all conflicts.

But first, you have to get him on board. And he may not be a reader, which is going to make it double tough.

The analogy I use is that marriage is like a house you buy. If you maintain that house, you will get a lifetime out of it. You can do some of it yourself, hire what you can't do, and while you are at it, learn to do the bits and pieces that have to be done EVERY day to keep it up.

Now when a house hasn't been maintained, usually because you don't really know how, it is in a state of neglect. It is falling down around you. And it happened over a long period of time while you were both distracted. There is a temptation to give up because fixing up that old house just seems like an overwhelming job that has stuff wrong you intuitively know you do not have the internal training and knowledge to fix.

And those who are not motivated, usually because they know they don't know how but think they should, wish for a magic wand and there isn't one.

There is an answer.

Both of you agree to spend 20 minutes a day, or maybe 30 as it gets to be fun, fixing up the old house. And you get the how to do it book that teaches you how to spend that 20 or 30 minutes each day actually getting something done instead of complaining that the job is going nowhere.

Got it so far? Does that approach sound like something he might buy? Oh, and there are a lot of fakes out there selling self help books. He may know that and be cautious.

Larry

Larry: you are preaching to the choir, i agree totally with all you have said and have ordered many of the MB books and the at thome course. he agrees to working together through the books in theory, but getting him to stick with it, another story.

he loves me and wants our marriage to work, he just has issues with follow-through, going over the past, he wants to look forward and never look back.

he wants me to be the driver of this healthy marriage train and i guess i am needing him to put as much effort in this recovery, maybe even more right now than me.

selfish, yes i know, just kind of tired this week. we seem to have hit a wall and just keep spinning our wheels.

BB


And the way you look forward is . . .?

But you knew that. If he finishes the course and really learns the lessons, he has much to look forward to, from a male's point
of view. *smirk*

He needs to understand that the home course is a way of looking forward and getting over the past, at the same time.

Larry

betty, I have the female version of your husband. She stated just this morning "I'm not someone who can follow a specific path..." She's previously said some other gems like "I need to follow my heart."
--I plan to elaborate on this in my thread (for my own therapeutic benefit mostly).

Larry, thanks for putting in black-and-white the way I tend to approach a problem. It's good to know I'm not crazy .
We're deep into the D process, so I'm not sure why, but I printed out your post and asked STBXW to read it, just to "see where I'm coming from."

Anyway, you're not alone betty. I don't have any real answers for you, but I know how frustrating it is (and sad).

~optimism

OPT


The world is full of screwed up people who followed their hearts. What they don't know, that predators do know, is that it is dirt easy to fall in love. Problem is staying in love. Adultery works like 2% of the time, long term. And all 100% think they will be the 2% that do work out.

Give you an example: Graduate psych student project. They gathered 50 students of each sex. Assigned them the task of pairing off and telling the highlights of their life story to each other. Conclusion: Very, very high percentage were left with a feeling of attraction for their pair partner.

I once was "Entertained" by a cruise ship guy who gave me chapter and verse why so many guys would PAY to work one of those jobs. He shared all of the techniques worked up through trial and error for seducing the vulnerable.

See "15 steps to adultery." It is posted here frequently. Do a search.

Frankly, I could pair a model with a complete pig and if they followed instructions, they would fall in love, for a while.

Follow your heart indeed. . .

Larry

Hello Optimism..
I have to apologize to you! When I posted here I have to admit that I had not read your story or your posts, maybe because you had not posted in awhile. I have now and will tell ya that I admire you for what you are doing and going thru and all that you have done to recover your marriage. I was referring to some guys who have posted here briefly and have never come back or who insist on going off on their own w/o considering any of the advice here. Who knows, they may be doing well in their plights, and maybe much better than I am, but just seemed like they were unwilling to listen and fight is all.
I wish you the best in all you are doing! I have not been able to post here for a few days, and I did note your comment in my main posting, and I will reply. There are some things that have developed that I need to disclose, but I cannot now and should be able to this evening.