Events of Today:
- Chatted with H in the morning, conversation was upbeat all day via chat. H invited me to sushi on Wed.
- Called H on the way home from work. He was clearly in lowered spirits. He told me that on his drive home (to his parents) that he started to think about things again and was upset. I told him that I would talk to him later.
- Came home and cried.
- Called H after crying. I shared with him my fear that we would go to dinner Wed and then he would hate me again by Friday. He told me that he would certainly do that and there was no stopping him. (At least he was honest) He said it was up to me if I wanted to take it.
- Continued to talk with H for some time. Of course, he brought up the affairs and all the negative talk again. I thought about what he said about "wanting to take it" from him. I decided that I did not.
- Ended conversation with H. I told him that we could not spend time together until he allowed himself to forgive, not forget---just forgive. Otherwise, it would be the name calling/throwing it in my face/I don't love you talk and that is not helpful for anyone. I told H I would change my email password. He said he did not care and could/would never forgive.
- Immediately upon hanging up, H removed me from his facebook and blocked me on IM chat.

The End.

Thanks Barbiecat---I have thought about your comment and it is good advice. I don't want to serve a life sentence for these mistakes.

I think I will read the articles on forgiveness. I need to forgive myself as well.

Things are especially lonely with DS gone. I spoke to him yesterday via video chat and he is have a great time with his father abroad.

The process to forgiving yourself is simple. You take responsibility for what you did and why you did it, then erase the guilt by becoming a person who would never do it again. The new you can then forgive yourself because you are no longer the person who could or would repeat the same mistake.

You made a tremendous emotional investment in your relationship and marriage to your STBXH. The outcome was not what you wanted or expected. Your expectations were not met either because he was not really who you wanted him to be (shame on you)or because he was not capable of meeting your needs because of his limitations. That or maybe your expectations were not realistic. Or even more likely, a jumbled up mess of all the above. There were several issues your husband that, frankly, were deal breakers.

He is feeling and processing his own version of guilt. He is attempting to handle that guilt by blaming you totally, 100% for the situation in which he finds himself. While that does apply to the affair, it doesn't address the very real problems of the marriage itself and his own contribution to its less than satisfactory state of being. He should, but probably won't, take this opportunity to work on himself, change himself, so that his next relationship is based on what he knows, not how he wings it.

Suggestion: Always keep somewhere in your mental coping skills an image of a future relationship that is sliding into conflict (Read the three states) and you want to stop it before it escalates even more. The image you have is to get His Needs, Her Need and turn off the TV and look at your mate with a big smile and say, Lets Learn How to Get Closer So We Can Have Even Better Orgasms! Or something like that

Guy talk. . .just saying.

Larry

One other point. I am the BS. I don't live with guilt and I forgave my X for what she did. I didn't forget, but would have if she had exerted just a hair more effort. Instead, I gave up and helped her out the door. I did make a bunch of changes in myself and that erased my own guilt. The only things I couldn't change were my age, energy level and her serious need, want, desire, compelling and over riding need for another child. She became obsessed. Neither of us would have had much of a life if we had conceived another Hirschsprung's baby.

Just about every other complaint of hers could have been handled. Just about every other complaint of mine could have been handled. What could not be overcome were the ones that couldn't and thus, the divorce. I let her go.

Well, she has her child on the way and has discovered the grass isn't greener. Like, duh!

And life goes on for me in divorce land, and frankly, it is only marginally better than the prior state of marriage. I get so dang lonely, I start talking to the walls.

I do have one long term recommendation for you. See what you can do to find a guy who likes to read. Most of those will be somewhat receptive to reading a relationship book, which, for most guys, is like a trip to the dentist. I suspect you will never be satisfied with any male who is clueless in this area.

Larry

I think H is on a revenge kick now.

Two weeks ago, he contacted an ex-girlfriend from 10 years ago on Facebook.

The ex-girlfriend responded with a "Hey Congratulations on your Marriage. BTW - I am still in love with you and never stopped thinking about you. Good-bye for now, but I will always hold you in my heart" type letter. It was longer than that summary, but that was the gist of it and I have the full letter.

He did not respond to that letter (that I know of). I asked him to write a NC reply and he said that he "didn't want to hurt an innocent woman's feelings".

Yesterday, I told him that I did not want to ride the emotional roller-coaster anymore unless he was going to work towards forgiveness. That prompted him to immediately block me on chat and facebook, and I suspect it is so that he can connect with his ex-girlfriend again for a hook-up. I guess I do not know for certain that he contacted her, but the last time he locked me out of facebook and blocked me, he contacted her.

[edited: removed unfounded accusations]

No, nobody deserves an affair, revenge or otherwise.

There is a ton of fog right now. Your ex is all over the place emotionally, and seems to be doing atleast a good job of expressing how he feels...if only he could do that with just honesty, and not all the anger and abuse.

It seems like the common thing amoung most MB principles is to recognize what's going on, how damaging it is, and then rise above that, doing what's logical instead of letting your emotions dictate your actions. You're right that your ex needs to forgive you, but how long can you hold out if you believe that things will get better if you stick with it?

I honestly believe I did not persevere enough in my marriage and stick to principles. My emotions did change and eventually my emotions were logical again. As well, my ex, who's come to realize her part in the problems has come to recognize them and how things could have been different.

Just don't give up yet. Hang on and take it one day at a time.

Hamster,

I hope you reconsider what you're doing and why.

And please read and respond to Larry's posts on forgiveness, too.

See, you have a long, long journey for redemption. Doesn't stop with the marriage ending, your BH's actions/reactions...keeps going and going. Just two short months ago you were in your second affair, hamster.

And your BH didn't choose to be on his emotional roller coaster--you put that on him.

You can choose to work through this with your BH...draw NEW boundaries, which you need, to keep yourself as your new self...per Larry above...so that you can be there, hear your BH's statements, and not accept any of the LBs...not ask him to leave...that's still the all or nothing thinking that leaves you vulnerable to continued cheating, btw.

So your work on yourself can involve your BH...and if you truly want to achieve self-forgiveness, do that process fully, then learning how to set and enforce these new boundaries around yourself, choose to act not react, is vital.

Please consider doing it...as amends to your BH. This roller coaster you're on now is how you break enmeshment. Necessary for divorce, anyway. And a very important key to breaking down why you chose adultery.

So important to really hear your BH when he shares...just as you do in the enjoyable times, so do in the tough to take times...knowing that his great pain is the first emotion, and his anger comes on in defense of that pain...and that his anger won't harm you...acting out his anger (the DJs, AO's) isn't allowed anymore.

Not by you, or by others to you.

Another key reason you chose adultery has to do with the amount of lying you did to yourself. An accountability partner (which would have been your BH), I think, is necessary. Can still be him. It's a choice. Where you hold yourself to the new boundary of staying Open and Honest, because that's who you are now and part of your own extraordinary precautions.

I believe you'll heal and thrive if you will work towards amending for the next two years, as if in recovery, even if you're not in marital recovery...

so you can be successful in your personal recovery.

In it, you'll learn there is no deserving, btw. Another key part of your chosen perspective and belief you may want to change.

Choice to change, amend and grow is NOT dependent on BH's actions...only yours. That alone is hugely healing, as Larry describes in his "Guilty" thread on Other Topics.

Please take this journey for you, your BH and your DS...seems to me your focus is still dangerously on BH, not you. Which is where it was when you chose to end your marriage.

LA

Hi LovingAnyway

Thanks for your response. Very helpful insight.

Can you help clarify what you mean when you say "I hope you reconsider what you are doing and why"

I read Larry's post on forgiveness---self forgiveness. I agree. What would you like me to comment on specifically. I am more than happy to divulge my thoughts on certain topics and I have time

I ask him to stop with the verbal abuse and if he cannot stop, then I have no alternative but to ask him to leave my house (he is already moved out). I tried some other tactics such as a few hours to "cool off", breathing exercises, mandatory hug time---to calm him, but the yelling/outbursts/LB activity continue. There was a progression of daily interactions for the past 2 months that eventually led to this one time request for H to leave my home (he has his own home now). At the end of the call yesterday, I did tell H that we could not spend time together if he could not control these outbursts. I did not push for all or nothing. I pushed for a no LB or no spending time together---we could still talk on the phone/chat. Actually, H asked me to not contact him at all and in my opinion, I have to respect that request.

I spoke to my therapist last week (she knows the entire story) and her definition of "boundaries" also involve boundaries on how you decide to let others treat you. I don't think I have to listen to verbal abuse, even if H needs to say it. He can express his feelings in a more assertive way, but he gets very upset and a lot of times an upset person needs a "time out" and seems like he needs to be completely away from me.

H said to me several times that I "need to accept what I have done and realize it is over". In my mind, not contacting H is my way of "letting go". The less I see of H, the less concerned I will be with his actions and the more time I have to be focused on my actions. My accountability partner is my parents and siblings.

I still hold to my original perspective that I do not need to share my email password openly with my soon to be ex-husband. How many people do that? Speak now!

Further, part of our condition of staying together was for me to not see my friends anymore with H being present---any friend, whether they knew of the affair or not--and for any reason. It has been 3 months since I have had so much of a coffee with my friends. My friend is having a baby shower this weekend (she knew nothing of the affairs) and I plan to go. I will not continue to limit interactions with friends whilst on the train for divorce because I don't see that to be necessary. I am not going to party, but I will visit my friends, have dinner with them, participate in their children's birthday's, and in this case baby showers.

Can you clarify your situation a bit? Last I heard you signed the papers...are they in the works? Is the D on hold?

I see you refer to him as STBX and then in the next paragraph you talk about conditions for staying together...?

Papers are in the works and H said he will present them to me for signing as soon as they are ready. Papers had a mistake on my proper legal name so that is why we had the clerks fix up a clean new draft.

Those conditions for staying together are from before we officially started the paperwork about a month ago. I have just been continuing to abide by those conditions of my own accord.

This condition I don't understand at all. Is it supposed to be "without H being present?"
Hamster. Things seem to be getting really complicated. It seems your husband/stbxh is now having interaction with an ex-girlfriend.
Didn't you just go to the movies together over the w/e? "...like old times..."? Now you're off his FB (FB is a social networking site by the way - not necessary when you are married).
YOu're separated, but not in Plan B. You might be trying some form of Plan A but I can't tell.
How do you plan to use this whole experience to focus on hamster and grow as a person? I'm not sure you were ready for marriage, hamster. I'm starting to wonder if the same might be said of your stbxh/husband.

I like your idea not to "party" this w/e. Talk about complicating matters- the last person you need as an advisor right now would be Jack D from Tennessee.

I think you need to slow down and try to simplify this situation for yourself, somehow. You seem to jump from 10 steps forward to 2 steps forward. For instance: �Divorce Sure is Lonely� �c�mon Ham, you�re not even divorced yet, and he just moved out, what, last week?
You�re a smart woman, hamster, with a lot of gifts. But nobody including yourself will ever know it if you�re surrounded by chaos.

~opt

I don't know what I'm doing---it's chaos like you said!

H moved out on Feb 22nd so a month now----yes, our lives are craziness now.

Er---I didn't speak to H all day, it was a calm day. I went to dinner with coworkers. I am trying to calm down.

I changed the title of this thread...good point and it seemed dumb now.

Bleh.

I had to google "Jack D from Tennessee"---I didn't know what that was.

(((((Hamster)))))
I didn't mean to hurt your feelings, Ham.
Things are rough for you right now, maybe I was a little too direct. I apologize for that, and for not recalling your H has been out for a month.

String a few of these together, and some valuable time with DS and you might start finding some clarity.

Pls, don't go anywhere either. Separation day for us is next Wednesday. I'm about to find out just how true the title of your thread really is....


~opt

DS is far far away right now in another country visiting his Dad. That is part of the reason why things are so lonely at home! He left last Wed. and comes back in mid April.

Sorry, I missed that your DS was out for a while. Yeah, that makes for an empty house. As I mentioned, a major concern of mine for when ww moves out next Wednesday.
Breathe, hamster.
Are you still considering dinner with stbxh tonight or is that off?

~opt

hamster-

As a BS I can tell you that there are TONS of "triggers" that can throw your H into a terrible mood. I know that my WW's OM drove a green Dodge minivan. For MONTHS after D-Day, every time I saw a green Dodge minivan I could feel my blood pressure go up. I know that she was texting him excessively for a period of time. Every time I saw her look at her cellphone, I was thinking "Is she talking to that a-hole?"

The mind works in a funny way... As a BS, if you know 99% of a story, your mind will fill in that 1% with the worst possible senario. This is normal as any BS here will tell you. I have no doubt that your H is experiencing this and when he goes into a "rage", something probably triggered it. It does not have anything to do with what you say or do at the time. It could be something he sees, hears or smells that reminds him of the hurt.

Hamster, I posted on your other thread. You got a bit of a raw deal there, but I'm concerned that you're making some bad moves now as a reaction to that thread and the things going on in your life. I'm a FWW, btw - a very blunt FWW. I'm from the NJ - we don't sugarcoat.

Do you want to save your marriage? Do you truly love your H? Or do you just want to make things easier on yourself - in the short run? Because you came on here saying that you wanted to save your marriage, but you seem to be giving up with lightning speed.


Did you hear him? It was up to you, if you wanted to take it. He was feeling you out. Do you consider yourself a strong person? Because this is the rollercoaster, it's not a ride for sissies. How your H was acting is perfectly normal, par for the course.


Sigh. You had an opportunity to show him that you could do this, and you opted out.


What you did here is give him an ultimatum - forgive, or else. If you really wanted to save your marriage, this was so not smart - and so very selfish, IMHO. Do you truly understand that you are the one who f-ed up here? That means that you have to suck it up for a while while your H is miserable. Actions have consequences. And don't be so quick to forgive yourself....IMHO you haven't thought enough about why you were unfaithful to forgive yourself yet.

I'm 5 years in to recovery. Do you think that life with my BS was easy for the first year? It was hell. But think how it was for him! He was living with, sleeping with, someone who had stabbed him in the back! I would not be recovered if I had told him "Work on forgiveness - or else". I knew I had screwed up, and I was willing to tough it out because I wanted my H, even if he was a mental mess.


You know, he can say a lot of things. But look at what he is doing. I felt that there was hope for your marriage when he came on your thread and b!tched some people out on your behalf. Yes, he's talking divorce. But I have to wonder how committed you are to this relationship.


Yes, and you blocked his access to your email the last time something happened between the two of you. You can both play internet wars with each other.

Or you can decide to take another tack, the one where you enjoy each others company and ride out the rough spots. Let him do the work on the divorce. Let him know that you have made serious errors and are willing to ATONE for them. Stop thinking about forgiveness - for now. It's much too early for that.

The very best to you and your H and your son.

pk

I am going to tell on PK, because I can and I know she can take it. I will also tell on PB, her husband because he can take it as well. PB may not be here anymore, you know guys and their aversion to relationship discussions, but he is here in spirit and I know that because me and my buddy plank used to nag him.

Here is what I am going to share from one of PBox old posts:


That was the starting point for PK and PB.

Believe me, trust me on this, PK has come a looooong way from when she started. Matter of fact she has deleted some of her first odd posts. Yet she came here with the right attitude and that was to save her marriage at whatever cost.

The cost she paid as I am sure she would acknowledge, was to change herself. She did it through introspection, reading and taking to heart posts that were made in her direction, reading and taking to heart posts that were made to others, reading and learning from the site contents and books. Yea, and the old school of trial and error.

I see internal similarities between the two of you. This makes PK's advice to you of even higher importance than normal. She is good at helping just about anyone here, but I think she has a special insight with you.

The most important thing she did was acknowledge that changes were needed in herself. She acquired the knowledge and did the deed. Her husband was in the same boat. He was a male clueless poster boy. And he made some adjustments to his own world view out of the trauma he experienced. He took ownership of his own shortcomings as a husband. I haven't seen much of him in a very long time. I hope he and PK are doing ok these days.

Just listen to her. She has the perspective of time and distance and what she learned that she can teach to you.

Larry

There's actually a story behind that. My H, operating in those days on approximately one one-thousandth of his normal intelligence level, decided to tell the OM about this site. This was after we had posted about our issues.

Please do not ask me why he did this. Even he was unable to explain. I was horrified.

So I wanted to wipe off anything that could remotely have led OM to me. I stopped posting for a while also. Remember, I had not seen or spoken to OM in years, and liked it that way. And you can really never be too vigilant: as recently as a few months ago, he attempted to make contact via a profile I had made a long time ago on a little known or used family reunion site. I took the profile down in record time. There's no room in my life for agita these days.

pk

Pk:

From DDay till now, what a difference. I hope that gives ham some perspective to motivate her to keep working on it.


Larry