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Originally Posted by rprynne
In order to really repent, I think most people have to feel like the injuries that they caused were intended. One can feel shame, sorrow, regret, etc. when injuries are "collateral damage", but most don't feel the need to be repentent.

I imagine that regardless of how much introspection that is done, the FWS is never going to feel like the injuries they caused were intended. The FWS will generally think that the BS was "caught in the cross fire" of the FWS's misguided search for happiness.

Interesting POV


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Originally Posted by tst
As far as a threat in the future�.. This is tough and it�s the reason I�m so passionate about EP�s. The EP�s are the only way to truly secure a wayward mindset of IB and move them to a position of protecting the marriage. If a FWS doesn�t have these written out it is doubly hard for the BS to feel any safety at all. And if a FWS doesn�t maintain these EP�s for life, the BS shouldn�t feel safe at all.
My H didn't have these written out at first. After several months and the 'I must behave good because I'm being watched' era wore off, it became apparent that these needed to be written out.
It seemed like we both needed them clarified on paper.

As EP's were practiced, I do believe that H became aware of how important these were to protecting me. This, then led him to realizing how unprotective he had been, and how being unprotective had been hurtful.

So, I can see that and I agree.

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Will the MB program lead to repentance?? When I think about this I would say, YES! But for most, only with time. MB is designed to change behavior, but I think as the behavior changes so should the attitudes and beliefs�.. Keep in mind that these changes happen sometimes quickly and sometimes slowly.
okay, behaviour changes lead to attitude changes and beliefs. I can organize that in my head to be right.
You're saying time is a factor as well, I can handle that. I don't like it, but I have learned to have patience.

I think my biggest concern was that if that 100% true repentant H with no foggy thinking, was not visible by this time, he would never show up.

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As for your FWH being like tst�. That would be a bad idea, because you probably wouldn�t be able to stand being around a big ole� PITA like me!
Maybe not, IDK! I'm sure SMB wouldn't be as grounded as she sounds, if not for a big ole' PITA like yourself. wink

Thanks for sharing SMB's feelings of future threat. I'm sorry that she feels this at times, I'm sorry that anyone has to feel this way.
Big boat with many in it.


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Now I have to read about trees? sigh

Dropping by to say hello Miss Vit. I understand the "stuck"...plodding on.


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I've mentioned it before - the "stuck" must be normal around the two year mark for BS's - my EA notwithstanding. It'll be two years this July for us, and just a few months ago I was feeling super stuck - and in some ways still am.
think


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Originally Posted by black_raven
Now I have to read about trees? sigh
and roots and suckers ...... haha, well yes you do there missy! grin
How are you black raven?

Yesterday, inbetween mowing grass, weeding, mulching, trimming trees, watering newly planted trees and moving plants around,
I would come in and read here. Then I would go out again, thinking about all the bits that I read.

I'm going to finish posting to everyone's thoughts for 2 reasons. It helps me to sort out what I'm feeling and why.
And, I know now that I'm not alone, so for the ones who don't post and simply read, maybe it will be of some help.

Today, I'm not nearly as focused on 'needing that repentance NOW'. I trust what other posters have said.
I trust the MB program.

I'm not stupid, blind or full of false hope. I'll be patient and cautious, for now. And, I'm okay with that.


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Originally Posted by not2fun
Originally Posted by lildoggie
there's that little bit that says "I gave my everything for you, I sacrificed alot just to make you love me" Heck for a little while I thought to myself "I sold my soul in plan A".
sigh......I never felt that way about Plan A, but I pretty sure I sold it in early Recovery. I KNOW my giver was running amuck.....and I'm not sure I can live with that.... Not2fun
I felt like that in Plan A too. I felt like the biggest two faced person around, and I despise people like that.

Not2fun, I don't understand 'I know my giver was running amuck', and what is it that you can't live with????


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Originally Posted by not2fun
Well honestly, you'll have to thank Lil.....she wanted an update on me in her thread, so it was already there when you posted this. Since I've been struggling, I figured I needed to jump on board. .....and I have to admit, that with this struggle in the M, I wonder if I'm being a phony when I post to newbies when my marriage isn't the picture perfect Recovery I would like.......

Never saw Lil's thread with your update. I'm very behind in keeping up lately.

The bolded ...... boy, do I feel like that too sometimes, so I can relate 100%.
I find that I have to be careful, I'm not detached emotionally enough,
to not project my own feeling into a thread.
I try, but afterwards I might think, hmm is that how I would have posted a month ago.
I like to think that I don't, but I'm sure it comes through.
The positive side to this is, that if I read a post by someone and I think, hmm ??? for whatever reason,
I consider the PMS effect of R. Not real PMS, but the same ups and downs.

Hurt and frustration can be hard to disguise.


Originally Posted by not
Originally Posted by V
Brings about another question of, what is enough repentance and is this individual to the BS???

Interersting question......there was a link to this website on here not too long ago. It has a article on the difference between Guilt and Remorse.......www.Survivingbetrayal.com......
I went to that site, these are the last two on the list and it is an interesting list.

Remorse is action, actively doing something about the harm one caused.
Guilt is feeling self pity and doing nothing about the harm one caused.


My H falls into both categories with that list, as I see his actions and hear his words.
These last 2 on the list, I'd say he falls into more remorse than guilt.
Bottom line is that he is doing more right, than not right. Lately anyway, we've had struggles.







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V,

Don't forget that the word repent literally means "to think again" or "to have a another thought" as in "on second thought." It is a change in the way we think that results in a change in the things we do. Our actions change because we think in a different way.

From a biblical POV, the word repent implies no longer thinking that we have the right to choose right and wrong for ourselves instead of doing what God requires of us. It is thinking we can justify our own acts that is the very process of sinning.

I recently posted an analogy about thinking that infidelity is a line that must not be crossed. It is only when we come to understand that the line is merely something that defines the fact that we are in deed on the infidelity road that we can prevent ourselves from ending up in affair. Infidelity isn't an act but a process and each step toward what we define as wrong requires that we define that step as not wrong. Crossing the line only ensures that there will be a wreck, but the unfaithful decisions were made long before the line was ever crossed.

So the thinking that must change is the thinking that we can walk right up to some line that we ourselves have established as the boundary between right and wrong and as long as we remain on one side of that line we are not doing anything wrong.

Of course by the time we have to cross that line we have already justified all sorts of choices that were precursors to crossing the line and so crossing the line becomes a simple matter of compounding that same thought process and saying things like "I can cross it quickly and get back before anything bad happens." "I can just cross it a little way or part of the way and not really go all the way over it." This is the Bill Clinton process of being able to say "I did not have sex with that woman." It is accomplished be redefining the words sex, woman, not, have...we change what we have defined as the action rather than to avoid the action.

The reason EPs work so well at not only protecting us but to give the BS peace of mind is that a full understanding of the steps that led to adultery do not have to be identified and dealt with. All that needs to change is the process that led to the first step. So in essence EPs put a barricade at the exit that leads down that road so that we might never travel there again instead of trying to determine where the road might have become wrong. This allows the BS to be able to know that as long as that barricade is intact, there is no need to worry about what the FWS is thinking or doing.

So if a person has demonstrated a weakness of failing to protect the marriage when with members of the opposite sex under certain conditions, then the conditions must be prevented from being able to happen whether that means not being around members of the opposite sex or not hanging out with the gang from work on Friday night while the spouse is still working or taking that class at the community college or stopping for a beer with the guys on the way home from the golf course or even going to the golf course itself.

The trick for the FWS is to identify the first thing they felt required defining the act they were about to commit as not having crossed some line. This is the exit that lead to the affair and this is where the barricade needs to be erected.

What makes MB work better than other programs of recovery is that in MB you begin to understand that we must actively protect and nurture the marriage relationship and that anything we do that does not point to that is actually detrimental. In this regard both the betrayer and the betrayed are required to repent since it was believing that we can do things that do not affect our spouse that resulted in the marriage deteriorating to the point where an affair can happen.

This is the real breakthrough in thinking, BTW. It happens when we each realize that no matter what we do, what choices we make, we are either building or harming, even destroying the marriage.

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ST, you often give me lots to think about. I've typed and deleted, many times trying to reply to this.

Originally Posted by staytogether
Interesting questions Vit, I protect the M and the family with all my might but I don't actually see the horrific damage I caused except to DS and to a lesser extent DD. But certainly I want to make sure my family is invincible and certainly not because that is what I'm s'posed to do. The rebuilding I feel driven to do is certainly because of the children's suffering.
You don't mention J's suffering. How come?
I sort of have a theory, I'll wait though.


This one, particularly the bolded ......
Quote
I certainly don't blame my choice to have an A on the M - I am aware of all the events surrounding it. I have always been a firm believer that I create my own destiny and that I am in charge of my life (in total conflict with my sis who believes everything is mapped out). ie if I want something enough I can have it. the adjustment in me has come in reevaulating what is morally right for me to want. I wanted that escapism - I chose to have the A.
seems to contradict the bolded in this one .....
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I'm not intending to T/J but I have to say that if my M was happy and I felt that my husband loved me - I wouldn't have been looking for someone to fill the voids.I wouldn't have had the A. If I had understood fully about M and boundaries and knew as much as I do now I wouldn't have done it.

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Is this the type of foggy blameshifting crap that makes you feel disheartened?
Yes it is.
It certainly isn't his first thought when he speaks, but like I said before, he will eventually get to what you have just said, only more subtle.

Even though it's a glimpse of foggy/selfish thinking, it's still there and could/will revive itself.
I think also that it's a piece of the brick in the wall that doesn't allow a FWS to do whatever it takes to restore the M.
There is still that 'me' mentality, ever so small but it still has influence over your actions and thoughts, as to what you owe a BS.
These are my thoughts ST, they are not gold.

There's a thread over on SaA, 'Wheels spinning but no traction' or something like that, you should check it out.
I actually printed out a post from Gloveoil's thread, it was short changed on the paper and I have no idea who wrote, but I'm thinking his thread
might be a good one to read also.


Quote
J does feel that I am repentant.
That's good, yet you ask here about your own repentance.
I don't think that true repentance can be felt and acted out sincerely, until all the fog has lifted.
What do you think ST?

Quote
Is the amount of repentance necessary, in some way connected to the state of the pre-A M rather than the individual BS? (at the risk of being a bit contentious).
I would say no when it comes to A's, allowing a third party into your M is above the state of the M pre-A.
Both spouses knew that the M was unhealthy, (in ST's and V's M anyway), and still chose to remain.
An A is only known to one spouse who conspires to keep a secret life, this is an individual assault against the BS.

I think that repentance stands separately.
The repentance required to heal the weak M status, falls on both parties, to rebuild using the tools that we learn here.

Last edited by Vittoria; 04/25/10 05:53 PM.

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Originally Posted by lildoggie
Originally Posted by rprynne
In order to really repent, I think most people have to feel like the injuries that they caused were intended. One can feel shame, sorrow, regret, etc. when injuries are "collateral damage", but most don't feel the need to be repentent.

I imagine that regardless of how much introspection that is done, the FWS is never going to feel like the injuries they caused were intended. The FWS will generally think that the BS was "caught in the cross fire" of the FWS's misguided search for happiness.

Interesting POV
See, this is what I was thinking. This is what has had me so concerned for the last while.
If the FWS does not seek out that introspection, how else can a FWS become truly repentant?

I couldn't see what MB tools would influence that.
I'm getting a different perspective on it now.


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Originally Posted by MarriedForever
But even before this, I believe the true repentance began coming as *I* became better at meeting ENs and avoiding LBers...this deposited mucho amounts of LB deposits in H's LB. The longer I avoided LBers and met his needs, the more it's become crystal clear that his A was a huge mistake...and that his demonizing me during that time didn't make it TRUE.
I think that this is a good summary. So, we carry on and get better at being the best spouse we can be. Got it.

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This hasn't been easy...he was foggy for a very long time. I thought I was going to go crazy many, many times from the amount of fog spewing forth from my H.
I know that I haven't had it as hard as you, my heart goes out to you. Thank you for saying that 'he was foggy for a very long time'.

Quote
Raising the bar high and HOLDING it there, while meeting ENs and avoiding LBers, standing firm on my boundaries WHILE being kind and loving has been crucial in getting us here, IMHO.
And I want the bar to be high. It's hard sometimes to do that without LBing.
One thing that I've had to struggle with is, using PORH with emotions without it coming across as a LB.
Or, sometimes when I would be very careful with my words, my H would take it as a LB. This is much better now.

Quote
I cannot control my H...I can only control me. It took me a long time to figure that out and it was HARD to accept.
I agree, it's hard. For many years I tried to educate my H to be a better H. Nah, that did not work. crazy

Quote
He Plan A's me now, probably better than at any other time in our M.
I've found this too with day to day living.
Sheesh, I'm feeling bad now for questioning his sincerity.

Quote
It's been a long road and we aren't finished yet...we still have healing to do. But at least now we can see the end of the tunnel...and we're excited. smile
And that makes me smile too. smile



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Originally Posted by Mark1952
Like the roots of the tree, the roots of the affair very often take care of themselves as time and decay cause them to disappear on their own. As the marriage becomes stronger, more MB based and happier for both of us, the resentment, entitlement, IB and those things that ran much deeper erode until their is not much left. Eventually, they will be gone entirely without ever having to dig them up.
I do understand what you are saying Mark. I don't want to dig roots up forever.
I need my H to apologize to our kids and family. That's not something that I wish to dig up in the future.
Right now it seems like a huge tap root dandelion. I want it completely removed.


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Originally Posted by Mark1952
The reason EPs work so well at not only protecting us but to give the BS peace of mind is that a full understanding of the steps that led to adultery do not have to be identified and dealt with. All that needs to change is the process that led to the first step. So in essence EPs put a barricade at the exit that leads down that road so that we might never travel there again instead of trying to determine where the road might have become wrong. This allows the BS to be able to know that as long as that barricade is intact, there is no need to worry about what the FWS is thinking or doing.
What I get from this paragraph in particular, is that I need to steer my focus elsewhere. Focus more on the fact that my H practices EP's, which is an indication of thoughtfulness and care, rather
than the opposite.

What happens when an EP is not followed for the sake of not hurting someone else's feelings? (other than the BS) What is it in the FWS's head that says 'it's okay', or allows themselves to just
get to that line that you described? Is it not that 'me' mentality, that feeling of preserving their own feelings, despite how the other spouse feels?
Wow, that last part just came to me, I was thinking of an example of something that happened a while back.

okay, back to your analogy ..... the 'me' mentality that I talk about, am I understanding that you are saying that will fade in time with practicing EP's and MB in general?
Actually, that is what most of you are saying.
I feel like I've done a full circle, of something. lol

Quote
This is the real breakthrough in thinking, BTW. It happens when we each realize that no matter what we do, what choices we make, we are either building or harming, even destroying the marriage.
And, I hope we can get there. I think we can more than we can't.

Thank you! smile

okay so ... yes or no, am I on the right track?


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Hey V,

I took my reply to your thread - I got a bit stroppy, didn't think it would look good here.

Please don't hate me.
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I have been reading, just had limited time to get all my thoughts down.

N2F made a comment about feeling like a phoney to the newbies. Oh boy can I relate to that!
I know of plenty of times I have encouraged people to do something and though to myself "Lil, you a big fat hypocrite. You are not even doing it in your own M". Its so easy to talk the talk and not walk the walk. sigh Then I think, well if I am doing that, what are the people who advise me doing?

The conversation about EP's... well sometimes I don't know if I think they are enough. Or that well adhered to by either of us. Shoot, on a bad day (fortunately not all that frequent) I am not even sure if I care. I guess that's part and parcel of recovery at whatever stage.
Yeah we could re write them, but even then I dont knw how much that helps. Sometimes I think I am an impossible to please wife. I think Flick might agree laugh

And yes, I do miss the feeling of security the old M had, even if it was just a myth/fantasy/na�vet�. I said a while ago about how I am not sure if I believe in forever after marriage. Ok, I understand that makes me a renter. I am not sure how long that particular stage lasts. Sometimes I feel that the M is a shaky sort of deal and reliant to a degree of what I put into it.

Now before y'all start jumping up and down and saying stuff like he needs to make me feel safe via EP's or fill my EN's or something, lets just refer back to the impossible wife comment smile
Ultimately, I think I need more time and that's not going to happen quickly no matter how much I or anyone else wants to to speed up





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Originally Posted by Lil
Sometimes I feel that the M is a shaky sort of deal and reliant to a degree of what I put into it.

Ya think?

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Are you being factitious? naughty

Or am I still railing at the fact that never again can I just assume that my DH will stick around unless I make sure all his EN's are filled to perfection.

Yep, railing. I keep thinking of statements I want to make and the little MB guy who lives in my head, keeps answering with annoyingly sensible replies.

"what if he does it again?"
you cant control that
"what if all this EN and LB stuff isn't enough?"
You cant control that
"what if, what if, what if?"
shut up. do your best. let it go

DISCLAIMER this is not how I am feeling today. Just reflecting on other days


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Originally Posted by lildoggie
And yes, I do miss the feeling of security the old M had, even if it was just a myth/fantasy/na�vet�.
{{{{lil and all}}}}....... While I can't say I've thought about this in awhile, I know how hard ACCEPTING that was. hey, maybe that means I've accepted it... think
Quote
I said a while ago about how I am not sure if I believe in forever after marriage. Ok, I understand that makes me a renter. I am not sure how long that particular stage lasts.

EXCELLENT QUESTION!!!!..... I have thought about that a lot in the last 6 months. I've often wondered if the discovery of an A automatically throws the BS into the renter category...I mean, how could it NOT??..... And I too have wondered HOW long that lasts and HOW the BS moves out of it, if ever???......hmmmmm

Vit, I saw your question. I will try to get back to it tonite, if not tomorrow. The answers are kinda long.....(and ST, I too was thinking along the same lines as Vit.....I too wrote out a couple of responses, but I didn't think my emotions were in check enough......I also felt I didn't know enough of your sitch to comment one way or the other......)....

Until then......{{{{{{{to all my fellow hypocrites}}}}}}}}}

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I can't remember the thread but Mr. W posted about an H being harder to work with than a W in some respects. I agreed with most of what he said as it seems to fit. Will ask him if he can cut and paste here.


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Not really looking at the context that I'm placing this here...but if Black Raven says it fits, that's good enough for me.


Originally Posted by Mr. Wondering
One thing I wanted to point out as encouragement to any newbie BH's reading this thread. There's been a lot of chatter here about it being harder to extract a WW from an affair than a WH. I agree with that assessment. Most WH's don't want to get divorced whereas most WW's divorce is an consideration.

HOWEVER, IMO, once extracted WW's are generally better at recovery and more willing to work the program. They are more willing to be open about the situation, discuss it, make changes, etc. Whereas, FWH's want to sweep everything under the rug and not discuss it or really change. Don't believe me...notice that there are 10 times more FWW's on these boards than FWH's.

In addition, just because more WH's end their affairs and return to the marriage doesn't mean that they are more likely to creat a MB marriage of extraordinary care. Fact is...men generally have more to lose in divorce (money..kids) and stay with no intention of changing.

Thus...my best estimation is that BH's are MORE likely to achieve a fully recovered MB marriage of romantic love and extraordinary care in the long run (the ultimate goal of MB btw) despite being at a disadvantage at the outset breaking up the affair.

Mr. Wondering


FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered

"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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