Okay, what would I do to make things better if I were guilty of intentionally hurting Prisca in order to stop her from hurting me? If I had done that, I think I would apologize to her for hurting her and explain to her that she was hurting me and I wanted her to stop. If she did not stop, I would then probably pull back and quit giving her an opportunity to hurt me for awhile.
Thank you.
Would you consider that listening to Prisca talk about Subject X isn't POJA'ing it?
I agree that it is not. And I am willing to listen to her talk about it. And I've said so from the beginning. Here's the original discussion from yesterday:
Do you think we will be able to POJA Subject X this time around?
it would be wonderful to have an agreement
What if we can't POJA it? Then what?
I think that would be a good thing to bring up with Steve.
What did you hear me say when I said that?
you don't want to talk to me about it right now
That's true. I know that probably hurts.
However, I am willing to listen right now, if you want to talk about it.
I will be willing to talk about it all you want after we are further along the program.
I have no interest in discussing it further
Here's what I heard in my ol' brain...
Prisca shares her fear of not being able to POJA Subject X...she asks for your opinion. And you were with her. You're in it together.
Then she shares how much it means to her to relieve her fear. And then she shares her fear more obviously..."what if we can't?" Well, you went for the solve instead of saying the truth...
Whenever one of you shares a fear of the future, answer with honesty (not solving)..."We won't know until we get there. We'll get there together."
Steve as one of your tools...and one she doesn't want involved in Subject X. Okay. Good to know. She's not enthusiastic about using that tool...lay it down. Understand that solving fear isn't real and isn't really healthy.
And then the next day, what she heard was that she would have to feel that fear (which she looked forward to having relief from) for two to three months because you didn't want to talk about it.
Distill that into "I'm okay with you feeling anxious for that long until I'm comfortable."
No, that wasn't communicated directly or well...it's the exact same fear she hit back at you with the shut out for an undisclosed duration.
Both hurts.
You did a great thing here...you asked her what she heard...kudos. That's a fear-filled question sometimes. And you did that, anyway.
Then what?
Well...I'm confused. See, you saying you don't want to talk about it while talking about is a mixed signal. We don't do what we don't want to do...even when we're afraid, uncomfortable. You wanted communication more than the fear...you prize Prisca more...and then you say you don't want to talk about it (which includes listening to me...then you tell her if she wants to talk about it, you'll listen).
To me, you guys were talking Prisca fear and why you don't have fear (which is awesome conversation). And yes, it's in the marital code we tend to use before MB...when to rebuild connection, we change our language, go for precision and clarity, and at first, that can be awkward and a challenge in itself.
That's the fragile cup that Telly said. And you loved Telly's suggestion and bailed on not knowing how to bring it up, IMO.
And in her subsequent marital shorthand, Prisca told you just how awful it was for her to hear you say that her big fear had to engulf her until you both were further along in the program, or disclose it to Steve (which isn't what I thought you meant), or for 2-3 months.
Both of you hurt a lot in just a few minutes. Not what either of you wanted...or anticipated. You affirmed your goal together...to POJA this Subject X...and then you put it on hold as a resolution...which is very much a demand. Just like you heard her demand that you talk about what you didn't want to...
You didn't want to talk about her fear? You didn't want to acknowledge and validate her stuff? That's talking about it. What's to POJA about that? It's the very first step.
And POJA is a process...not an event. Prisca was asking if this time around you'd begin the process.
And if you're saying that you will not talk about Subject X (your thoughts) because you cannot do so right now without resentment, and that you expect to have this limitation for two or three months...does that sound reasonable?
I think it is reasonable not to try to negotiate Subject X until we can negotiate smaller things successfully.[/quote]
Do you think it's reasonable if your wife says she's bleeding from a sore on on her hand...she has it...it's real...and it's there...and you say that it's reasonable to not stop the bleeding each time until you learn more about the sore?
To me, that's what transpired between the two of you. I know you would not leave your wife bleeding from the sore if you saw it...you would help to stop the bleeding (the immediate affects of hearing what is really important to you is put on hold for two to three months by your H). You would stop and bandage first...really hear and understand her fear and NOT determine if it was reasonable or not.
You'd see the blood.
I think it is reasonable to conclude that we will learn how to do that during the next month or two since we are working hard on the Marriage Builders program. I think I am very reasonable in being willing to listen to her point of view on Subject X right now. And I also think I am reasonably protecting myself in not wanting to share my opinions and suggestions about the subject since doing so on lesser things gets me punished with love busters.
Then POJA punishment. Takes two to have that cycle. One to dole it out and one to take it. Vibrissa and MrAnderson and others told you how not to take it. How to respond when you feel punished...I'm telling you how to not feel punished.
First, don't see her shut out as about you...she's shutting you out, the source of her love and loyalty. She's hurting herself, punishing herself and blaming you. It's her cycle. I suspect you have one, too.
Break the cycle by not buying in. You hurt. Own you hurt. Your job is to figure out why you hurt...not why she's in punishment mode. Shift your focus and see if your expectations of her response is part of that hurt. Expectations make it so we don't hear what our spouse is saying. And that's our part...
Know when you both are miscommunicating. Miscommunication is misunderstanding...both not being understood and not understanding. You seem great on the double-check of her...do it on yourself.
Not to decide...to listen?
Not to POJA...to listen?
I would hope you would agree that I was trying to do just that![/quote]
Sorry to disagree. I totally believe in your intent was to really hear...you didn't see the shutdown you did...because hers was far more obvious.
And it's your obligation for the rule of protection to tell Prisca that your Taker is scared of her retaliation...her punishing choices.
And that you feel punished. Go further. How does it feel to you when she retaliates...hits back...punishes you, as her spouse, her partner?
Tell her.
Well, I did tell her. But only after the requests/demands that I stop emailing her. [/quote]
Would you gently consider this possibility in yourself? That when Prisca feels shut out, she shuts out back? (Mark, I think that wins the most awkward sentence award of the day.)
When you feel struck, you strike back?
Many ways we do this from our marriage of two becoming one...we can feel retaliation and we don't look at the ways we are retaliating...
This whole episode was actions from fear...not from love. Both of you contributed...and I think your fear of not knowing enough yet to not do further harm...and hers of having to wrestle her own Subject X fear for two more months alone...are what you're dealing with.
Own your fear. You have a partner who also fears...fears failing, more pain, extended pain...more sores of unknown origin...and one of you needs to act from love and not react to the fear.
I think, markos, that's really what you want most...to lead fearlessly. Won't happen. You'll feel fear. It's an unreasonable expectation...just as expecting Prisca to respond differently is unreasonable...because you are both getting to know each other in new ways today.
You had a very intimate conflict...didn't set you guys back, did harm your feeling compatible, did exacerbate your fear this marriage won't work (I call that going to the wall). Believe these conflicts will deepen your intimacy because you will keep looking at it, striving to understand, because those "lesser things" have all the same chemicals, same formula.
And you are sick from the toxins. Both of you.
You can do this. I hope Prisca will post and set me straight on her thread. She isn't safe from pain when she shuts out...she deepens it inside herself.
And when you get no response...focus on the fact you did share. It's a process. Don't judge all the steps...because the event is your marriage.
LA