Hang in there, Margie. This is the place to vent...We understand here more then most.

Hey Margie,

That is just great. Go for it!

Best of luck and prayers.

Tom

Margie,

You asked how to start this conversation.

I would suggest you consider the following.

1. What do you (margie) and H see as a good marriage?
2. What do you see as a great marriage?
3. What are your weaknesses and how can you each help the other address them?
4. What do you two need from one another, look at Harley's list of needs of discussion topics?
5. How do you need them met?
6. What have each of you learned from your experiences and this includes affairs? ( you need to learn something, you need to have grown for this to work.)

But, most of all Margie I would recommend that you start out by telling him what you have told us. You have been thinking about your marriage to H and the choices you have made. You have concluded from those thoughts several things:
1. You want to remain married to him because you do love him.
2. You want and probably so does he a better...much better marriage than you have had to date.

Next you tell him that you have been doing research and have found information that is guiding you, opening your eyes and letting you see a better approach to a great marriage.

And finally (please only say this if it is true), this approach is not WORK, it is just common sense and requires only a change in perspective to make the marriage much much better. You feel encouraged enough to approach him about your desire to seek a lifetime marriage to him and to make it something you both enjoy and grow into.

Just some thoughts. Hope they help.

JL

Hm. A few things. First:


Sooo....Yes. He is wayward, as you have illustrated.

Also, since they are exchanging ILY's and who knows what else, I think it's also safe to say he is "totally" wayward. (The debate over partial or total waywardness can be saved for another day.)

That aside, I would think you should follow the typical Plan A (which you also stated you were in, too lazy to go dig up the quote) and AVOID relationship talk. Right? I'll let the vets and those more used to guiding in these situations weigh in on that.

My point in the earlier post regarding self-reflection and figuring out what you want was just to get you thinking more clearly and concretely about where you want your life to go. If you want this M and understand why and have really internalized your more mature, in sickness and in health 'til death do us part commitment, then plan from there (e.g., Plan A, no relationship talks, etc.).

Or, if you're too far from that still, maybe J_L's suggestion is a better way to go. This is where I caution that you are dealing w/ a WS, though, so let me repeat... yeah.

May be too late and all moot by now anyway, as it's night and you all could be conversating and I'll just stop now.

Very good suggestions. I'll have to take notes and read them! LOL You made a good point with the "this is not WORK" because he has made it very clear that he does not want to work on it, he is tired of working on it but that I have the chance to possibly work enough to "win" him back.

And no, he's not home yet. Supposedly a doc at the clinic took "them all out" and he should be home soon. I fought the urge to TM back "and do you plan on "escaping" from me tonight with your friends?" but I DIDN'T! So proud, just said "have a good time, i'll see you soon!"

Thank you guys so much!

That's exactly my point.

Well?
(Or did I miss it?)

All I can say is that of course, at this point I feel like I want to work through the good and the bad. If this turns out as bad as it possibly can, and I'm trying to work through it, how bad could it be (unless it happened again in 5, 10, 20yrs). Ya know?

But, I feel like I am willing and especially armed with the MB site and all the help here that I can get through anything. For the moment it feels that way.

As it stands:

He apparently already had plans to go out tomorrow night. He got home late and was about to turn around and go out tonight with a (guy) friend too. The guy friend couldn't come up with anything to do, so H just went to sleep after playing on his laptop for about 1 1/2 hrs. I even asked to talk to him and he's all, "but I'm almost asleep."

He was getting tons of texts but his phone is in his pocket right now. I know I can get it out of his pocket, but he's been erasing texts. I'll get on his laptop to check the keylogger (since support hasn't gotten back to me about the email alert not working) before he wakes up in the morning unless curiosity just gets the best of me tonight. I don't know if I'm going to find any real evidence but wish me luck either way.

...Nothing on the laptop

Keylogger doesn't seem to be picking up Facebook chat damnit! What's up with that? Anyone know?

Absolutely innocent stuff on the phone...

Not that I'm not relieved... I mean the number of texts I went through matched up with the amount he was texting and there was nothing missing to where I thought anything was deleted. Times and everything match up.

But...it seems like he really just wants to get away from me. Texts to so many people saying, "Get me away from my crazy wife" type stuff.



So sad...

Just re-reading, and wanted to clarify: betraying our spouses puts them in an impossible situation. Asking someone to make a simple black-and-white decision right then about staying or leaving the M is nearly as impossible.

Excuse my poor wording in the above quote. What I was getting at is that your H had a choice when entering into an affair. At that moment, he could have chosen to leave the marriage, or he could choose the affair. Obviously we know what the preferred choice is. I think I was assuming a revenge affair aspect to this, as well, so that muddied the message a bit.

Just to clarify. And bump.

Thanks for the bump, sorry I was MIA all weekend. Trying to work on stuff.

I did have a long talk with him about our marriage, making my intentions clear of making it better. He brought up some issues that really sent him over the edge that had nothing to do with my As.

I'm starting to doubt an EA as he was home all weekend and there was NC to the woman. Not even an "sorry can't talk" or anything. But there were some definite lines crossed-going to singles sites. I think he's looking for an ego boost, not necessarily a girlfriend.

But right now, that's all I have concrete proof of. Without proof of an EA I can't expose or demand NC so I feel like I'm in limbo. I wish I could take a definite step here.

What issues did he bring up? Are they deal breakers? Can they be resolved? Does this mean he's still unwilling to work on the marriage?

I don't think he should be going to singles sites. That shows intention to cheat, even IF he isn't right now...

We got in a physical altercation in Feb. Not violent but physical. More me than him. When he left I got so angry I shot a gun in the house (I was alone, I didn't even break anything). He made me call the police later when he got home, I got arrested, he bailed me out. I've had to go to court a few times over it and I'm on a "probation" type program now.

My god I KNOW how stupid the whole thing was. It was the worst thing I've done, worse than the As to him, I think. I apologized profusely and talked to him about how I've acted since.

There was also another incident where we were arguing, I was holding a cigarette, he was in my face, the cigarette burned him on his leg (because he was standing over me-I didn't know the cigarette was touching him) and he smacked my hand because it was burning him.

I called the police at that time.

When talking this weekend he said how that could affect his career. He's in school for Radiation Therapy and said there was a guy who wasn't allowed to take his board exam because of a DUI. A domestic violence thing could ruin his chance of working.

These two incidents were within a few weeks of each other, so they were both 3 months or so.

I don't know how to explain or excuse my actions. They were awful and unforgivable.

However I don't know if his "wandering" or whatever it is, started before this time or after. If before, I'm sure I was sensing it, ya know?

If after, then that's his excuse for starting it and pulling away from me.

I have been seeing an IC now, am on medications, am acting better,etc...

Another issue was the house being clean which is easy enough to remedy.

and also, I don't agree with the singles sites either. I guess it's not as bad as what COULD be going on, it's just the only thing I have hard core PROOF of right now. I don't think it's enough to "call" him on. I really hope it's all I can find but I have to give it a little longer to find out for sure...

2x4 me at will... regarding my last post. I know I deserve it.

Oh and we did finally SF this weekend... after over a month...

I am not going to 2x4 you for the over the top anger stuff because you seem to be getting help for it. I never got physical with my H before I started meds, but I shredded him verbally a few times (more than a few).

As far as the sites go, did you say they were gone now? I'm sorry my memory is doing weird things right now. I would monitor for that type of thing for sure.

Just keep plugging. Keep being honest. Keep the EP's in place. Keep trying to meet those EN's. Every day. The time seems to drag so much at first. But then you look behind you and see the time that has past, and how things are better.

What do you mean are the sites "gone"? He tried to erase them from the history but I saw them on the keylogger. He visited them on Friday I think?

Funny thing is that there doesn't seem to be anything "bad" on there from after we had our talk. I don't know if he just really hasn't had the chance to really get on the computer and mess around or if maybe the talk got him thinking... one can hope...

Well keep it up, Margie!! And the SF too!

Sounds like you might be making a bit of progress - it's a hard road but it's a start!

Margie,

Ok, let me see if I have this right.

1. You have had two affairs on your H.
2. You two have had physical altercations: one with gun although he wasn't around when you discharged it and the second where you burned him with a cigerette and you call the police on him for slapping your hand away, that was burning him.
3. You are diligently looking to see if he is having an EA or PA but find no evidence and now you are at a loss as to what to do.

You two talked and apparently from I can glean from your response he has big issues with the physical altercations, not to mention your affairs and you are worried about his being on a single site? Have I got this right?

So tell me Margie, what are you doing to make him feel loved other than looking for how he has failed you? Have you realized yet, that YOUR actions need to be about YOU and what you have done in this relationship and not about him and what he may have or have not done in this relationship?

It seems to me that this man needs alot of reassuring that you have indeed turned the corner in your actions and that you are not just looking for ways to blame him or ruin his life.

Margie, you need to be talking to him, developing a plan for a good marriage and show him actions that support your words and your Plan. I am sure he is sceptical about what you say, but if he sees that your actions match your words, with time he will begin to believe.

You need to have patience and give this time. You are talking about alot of damage to this marriage and it will not be healed in a few months. It is good that you two had SF and I hope that you two continue to have it. One thing though. If you enjoy it let him know, but do not lie to him about your enjoyment. He may not pick up that you are faking at first but he will eventually and if that happens you will have added a huge lie to the problems. Honesty is crucial to a good marriage.

Hang in there Margie, you can do this, but you must stop looking for ways to blame him for the state of the marriage. He needs to see that you can cope with life in ways that will not damage your relationship with him and the marriage you two have.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

1. Yes
2. Yes These have been the two times that I ever got physical with him. Yes I take total responsibility for escalating these situations and making them as bad as they were. However, when he was hovering over me screaming and cussing in my face and I was sitting with my legs crossed and my hand resting on my lap, I had no idea the cigarette was burning him. All I knew is that he was screaming about how bad he wanted to hit me and then he did. I apologized later once I knew I had been burning his leg because I didn't know that until the police were there and he was telling his side of the story.

3. I am diligently looking and I wouldn't say "no" evidence but I would say not "enough" evidence.

He does understandably have issues with the physical altercations that have occurred recently. He forgets about all the yelling, screaming, cussing, throwing things, breaking things fights that we have had that were all him. I don't bring them up, throw them in his face or hold them against him... and yes I do have a problem with him being on "hornymatches.com".

I am talking, sharing my feeling, trying like HELL to get him to fill out the ENQ so I have some solid ground to go on, but in the mean time I'm just cleaning and cooking and talking and apologizing and trying to get out of him anything that I can do for him to make him ok at the moment.

I do TOTALLY realize that my actions have been my responsibility and they have, very possibly ruined my marriage.

I KNOW that he needs a lot of reassuring. I just don't know HOW or WHAT he needs. I'm flying blind. I am trying to back up my words with actions. I KNOW it will take time but I feel like I have a time limit:

He graduates in August at which point he will take his board test and look for a job-somewhere, anywhere in the US. Our plan was to move somewhere else, we don't know where yet, just wherever he was able to get a job. Maybe closer to family (Dallas or Cleveland) or somewhere in between or somewhere way out of the way (California, New York). We had no idea where. So I feel like I have from now until about October (when my probation program is up) and he passes his board test to make headway and make things at least "ok" or getting there.

Thank you for your response. You do give me hope. I would LOVE NOT to find something proving that he has cheated on me.

I don't know.