Me WW 31
Him BH 26
DDay 10/08 (NC since 07/08) and 09/09 (NC since 09/09)
(two ONS)
DD11
DD8
DS3

Me-working the rules, basic concepts and trying to get him to fill out ENQ
Him-withdrawn (read:still hurt and angry)

Just need someone to talk to...

Margie

Welcome, this is a good place for you to be.

Thank you, stillhere

Why don't you fill everyone in on your background story so people can better help you. How did you get yourself in this situation?

Also, one of my pet peeves (not saying you are making me angry) is WSs who categorize their affairs as ONSs when in actuality, they were longer term EAs that progressed physical only once. The issue was all the flirting and boundary issues, not just the fact that it progressed to sex.

What happened to your other thread? Maybe you can link the two so you're not having to repost all the same information and advice you've already gotten.

And hopefully you have changed that WW status to FWW. It seems as if you have.

The first was a guy I was in the Army with. He liked me for a long time but I was not attracted to him in any way. We really were just friends. He moved in with me and BH in the summer of 08 for a few months. A couple of nights before he moved out he, BH and I were up late drinking (heavily). BH went to bed. I blacked out except for a few parts of the evening that made me think we had sex. I don't remember sex at all. The next day when I talked to the guy he made it very clear that we had sex. He moved out a day or two later. NC since then. I kept it from BH for months. He found out when I was IMing a friend online and i alluded to the affair.

In 09/09 I asked my BH to move out. We were having a lot of trouble in the relationship and I didn't feel like I loved him anymore. He moved out. I went to a BBQ at a friend's house and met a guy there (friend of a friend of a friend). Had ONS. Text messaged for a few days, NC since then. Admitted it to BH a couple of weeks later.

I'm sorry for those of you who read most of my story when I posted last week. Just felt like I needed more advice.

I have since dropped out of school, do not go anywhere, don't talk to anyone on the phone unless BH is right there, he has full access to phone, computer, emails etc but he doesn't want to look. He's still hurt and kind of doesn't care right now.

I'll answer any questions anyone has in order to get help. Thank you all.

I couldn't find it NP. Sorry for the repeat info.

Woah ML.....I don't know if this is the right approach to take!! You also need to have a network other than your BH (a solid network, not an enabling one). For your children don't stop the rest of your life! (you DO have kids right? Thought I read that).

I think I also read in your other post that his detachment could be an indication of his wayward-ness as well? Do you think that could be it?

I have put the idea that he could be wayward out of my mind. He is so against affairs and hurt by what I've done that it's all but impossible. Since I have known him, his take has always been that he doesn't understand why people cheat and that he would rather "break up" with someone before starting another relationship. I really don't think an A is hiding behind his withdraw.

The thing is that any friends I have had I have bad-mouthed to about him. I can't be trusted, period and I am ready to admit that.

Yes I have 3 kids.

And HUGS on your situation. I've been reading your thread and am just at a loss for words on what you are going through.

Hi Margie,

MB is the place to be in your are looking to change your ways.

I definitely am and have changed my ways, QA. I don't want to lose my M or my H. I have no urge to go elsewhere for attention. I just want to make sure I'm doing everything right by him.

Question: What are the best ways to spend UA time, cheap and with kids running around? Worst part is DD11 and DD8 are leaving in a month to be with their dad for the summer so I'm going to have DS3 (4 by then) all summer and no real options for a sitter.

Thanks

Margie,

You can find your earlier post but simply clicking on your name and then click on view posts.

I'll do it for you and move up your first thread. It is often better to keep everything on one thread so that folks can catch up and see what has been happening and what you and others have said.

JL

ML,

Interestingly you are 5 years older than him, I think men sometimes pick women older than themselves because they feel safer that way.

Understand that a man feels that he loses his chance to have sex with other women when he gets married, and that sacrifice is the price he pays for stability. One of the things I regret is the 20 years I have remained loyal to my wife after her affair, and the fact that whatever opportunities I might have had are lost for good. I feel it has invalidated my fidelity.

Gamma

Are you recovering, Gamma? Because why WOULDN'T you stay loyal to your wife, even after her affair, if you are recovering the marriage? I am a little surprised you regret your fidelity...

NP,

Very broadly men regret their fidelity, women regret their infidelity. Perhaps in both cases the genders are operating against their more programmed instincts.

Not sure if I am recovering, she is still closed up like a clam, but much better after finding this website.

Gamma

DH and I have a 5 month old DD. We squeeze in time any way we can. Shower together in the morning, do chores together, after the kid is asleep we spend a minimum of 1.5 hours together before bed. I know couples that would drive around til the baby was asleep and talk, or let the kid sleep in the car while they took in a movie at the drive in (you can do those two while the older kids are away).

Do you know any other couples with young children? Many of the families at my church will pair up and do babysitting exchanges. One couple watches the kids while the other goes out for a night, the other couple does the same the next week. Free babysitting!

The other kids being away will make things much easier, IMHO. Put the kid in a stroller and go for a walk together.

One thing that will have to be diminished is alone time. You gotta give that up for time together but it is WORTH it.

Thanks V I have alone time all day long, just about. Well me and DS3. BH will be in school all summer too. He will have 3 wks or so with nothing going on between semesters in about 2 wks.

I don't care about having alone time at all. Just want UA time with BH without fighting, LB and the like.

Have you tried neighbours for babysitting options? The first two years of DD's life for us was spent with no options for a sitter because we didn't really look that hard to find neighbours daughter's, etc. I think that has been a huge downfall in our marriage as well - we never really took the time to do much together. Even once a week or every two weeks can make a big difference!

Once your son is in bed, perhaps you could take time to have a drink, sit out on the deck, chat, that kind of thing? It doesn't have to be huge events all the time!

Thanks, I'll check around NP!

When our kids were babies, we belonged to a church where the mothers had developed a babysitting pool. No charge, just had to be active in the pool to use it. Just a thought.

No church here, thanks though.

Given this:


I think this:


Is probably not a good idea. ML do you commonly drink to the point of blacking out?

No not at all. I went through a few months after that incident without drinking at all then only with my husband. At this time we have a drink together once in a while, not to get drunk and definitely not to the point of blacking out.

Margie, have you read about Extraordinary Precautions here yet?

Have you talked with your husband about what HE needs from YOU to feel safe in the marriage?

General question to those who have BT;DT. I know that a Wayward spouse needs to do anything in their power to help their betrayed spouse recover, even if it is listening to them vent. At what point, however, should the line be drawn?

The reason I ask is this


Now if there were no infidelity involved I'd say strive to make UA time pleasant (you should absolutely NOT LB in any way0, if he begins to love bust, your personal boundaries should motivate you to remove yourself from the situation until he can be pleasant.

However, a significant reason for his LBing is Margie's infidelity. What should she/ shouldn't she put up with?

I have read about EPs but haven't talked to BH about his needs.

I know I really need to do that and I took a step by asking him to fill out the ENQ, I just feel rejected that he hasn't yet-it sits on our coffee table untouched.

I'm prepared to do anything and everything in my power to recover my marriage. I just don't want to keep bringing up the A, possibly starting a fight, even if I deserve it. I know that's me still being selfish... I'm trying to overcome my fear of fighting with him. I really am.

If he won't fill out the ENQ, just leave it for now.

Have you ever in the past talked about ENs? Do you have ANY idea where to start? I ask because with WH I didn't hear him for a long time when he told me about his needs.

You need to bring up the A and find out if that is the real reason for his withdrawal. Maybe there is more going on here. Many BS's would be thankful to have someone as committed to saving the marriage as you are - I'd be over the moon if my WH was!

A few years ago we used some self-help marriage books that talked about the emotional needs...but I don't remember his. Awful of me, I know.

As for where to start, I'm just working on not making him mad and hoping that some of it happens to fulfill an EN or two.

I'll try and get up the guts to ask if the A are the reason for his withdrawing. I actually don't think it's the A, I really think he's just tired of me. Bringing it back to not fulfilling ENs and not being beneficial towards the marriage in general because of not knowing how to...until now.

Send DD11 and DD8 to bed every night at 9; tell them they don't have to go to sleep; they can stay up and read if they want. (Give them lights on their beds.) Then you guys spend 9-11 together. That's 14 hours right there.

Funny, DDs do go to bed at 9.

It's just awkward. We don't have SF. (We did for months after DDay. Just the past 5 wks or so he started turning me down when I'd initiate.) I can give him a kiss when I'm going somewhere or when he gets home from class, but we're currently sleeping on the living room couches-separately.

Most of our time, admittedly is spent watching TV. How do I break that habit?

ML, are you SURE he is not having an affair himself? The withdrawal, not wanting SF....those can be clues that he is being unfaithful himself!

Should I just out right ask him? I see him being highly offended by that. He's only gone to class and clinicals and I know his schedule. In the past two months he's only gone out with a friend of his maybe 3 times and besides that never goes out, no secret phone calls or texts I don't know about. He's not secretive about anything...

I would just hate to rock the boat in that way if it wasn't necessary. I mean, WHO am I to be asking HIM if he's having an A after what I've done? KWIM?

Don't bother on here !! You will be called every name under the sun !!

Thanks but I saw your thread...

I appreciate the help and advice I've been getting here. You don't have to appreciate it. That's your choice.

Your affair does not justify him having an affair. I wouldn't ask him, I'd just snoop around and see if you find anything.

Right now, your boat is sailing through some unpleasant waters... it needs to be rocked a bit.

I'm sorry I'm not really equipped to counsel on dealing with affairs, I just wanna let you know that I'm pulling for you. You have to accept that he may not recover from your affairs - this marriage may not survive. After that you need to do EVERYTHING in your power to live the MB principles. Meet his ENs as best as you can (try to meet the 4 intimate ones at least), Don't Love Bust, Be completely transparent, Put in place your EPs and let him know they are there.

Be the best you can - go above and beyond and create a safe place for him to come out when he's ready.

Have you considered he may be depressed? Is he willing to consider it and maybe get some ADs?

I don't know how willing he is to consider himself depressed. I know he was diagnosed ADHD as a kid. I've been diagnosed and medicated for depression and anxiety so it's not unheard of. It is something he's familiar with. He was going to IC but missed an appointment and just never scheduled again. Same with our marriage counseling. Right now he's at the point where he says he's open to me earning him back but he's tired of trying.

I don't know. I'm so confused now.

No; don't do this!

If you do ask him, it'll tip him off that you suspect and if there is anything, it'll make him take it more deeply underground.

What you need to do is snoop on him, yourself. Your marriage needs to value snooping as a virtue.

You need to get to the point where you trust that he is not having an affair because you've personally verified it. (And not because of just wishful thinking or because you think "trust" is a virtue.)

Agreed!

bingoaway

Bingo is not having a good day today. His days here might be numbered if he doesn't turn over a new leaf.

Update:

He's not having an A. His life is an open book. His phone is always accessible, his laptop is always accessible, neither are locked or password protected, he even took my truck today to make sure it's running right (we've had some problems lately-hence the bit of financial trouble we're having) so I'll be driving his van.

Just to answer the question in advance, I can't key log his laptop because he's way more computer savvy than I am and he's put a key logger on my computer before, he'd spot it in a second.

I'm just feeling so nauseous and uneasy about our marriage right now. I asked him last night why there was no SF and he said he didn't want to give me false hope. It's not like I can go by Plan A or anything...



Sad in El Paso.

Plus, Mother's Day is on my mind. I know in my head that I shouldn't be expecting anything from BH but my heart wants to hold on to a shred of hope that he'll pull something...anything would do.

I know I don't deserve anything, no need to 2x4 me on it.

Mother's Day is sort of a trigger for me, too. If your H doesn't do anything, it is NOT likely to be because he thinks you an awful mother or even that he doesn't love you. It's just hard to celebrate anything when the A pain is there.

I did make a little breakthrough last night, as far as his reason for withdrawing.

We were going to watch shows that we have recorded on the DVR and he skipped some cartoon network cartoons that I don't particularly care for. He said, "I know you hate everything I like." I said, "What do you mean? I don't hate everything you like." He said that when I posted ads on singles sites (Which I did during the period in 09/09 when he was moved out and I felt I had the right to have a ONS and thought I had the right to look for attention on single's sites) that everything I put on there was the opposite of things he likes.

Now I know that's not what I was thinking when I did that but all that matters right now is how he feels about it. Those posts on single's sites are now long gone but, how do I fix this? Any advice?

I was once cheated on during my marriage. Before we got married, I swore I am gonna leave him if I catch him cheating- but when it happened- it wasn't easy to just leave. It isn't easy to just throw anything good left between me and him. I knew he loved me, but he made a mistake. I went though nights without sleeping too. I went through nights taking pills just so I can rest and when I wake up- I wanted to sleep again just so I can forget the pain. But I love him and he loves me, I know. I know in my heart. He asked me to go through therapy. I am glad I did and now we're still together. I sure hope you find peace in your marriage soon.

Find something you know he really enjoys.....anything at all. Then find an event to take him to that he'll love, even if you are bored out of your mind (believe me, I spent an entire Saturday at a comic book expo bord out of my mind but WH had a great time). Or figure out something special to do with it. Get him a magazine subscription. Rent a movie you know he'll like and SIT THROUGH IT with him! And then act like you loved it after. You never know, you might be surprised!

Another piece of advice. I saw you posted something on my thread about the good mood tactics. MAKE yourself someone he wants to be around, even if it's deadly hard! If you mope around feeling guilty all the time, he will pick up on that. Be cheerful! Greet him with a kiss when he comes home! Make him feel like you are SO HAPPY to see him! Be cheerful and act like you LIKE yourself! It will catch on to him too. Find ways to make him laugh. Be upbeat.

You can do this, Margie!

Oh....and about the SF. Give him affection. It doesn't have to be SF. Hugs, kisses, touches......he says he doesn't want to give you false hope. But who doesn't want affection? Don't put a lot of pressure on it though. Maybe put the kiddos to bed, pour a couple glasses of wine, light a fire, and let the mood work its magic.

Thank you NP. Your post sent me into tears just because I don't deserve the kindness and support I'm getting here. I always try to greet him with a hug and a kiss but the good mood does go a long way and I need to work on that.

I'll be searching for some activity for us to do together that he would love.

Thank you so much for your advice!

IMO, you deserve the support, Margie. You cheated, yes. But you honestly want to save your marriage. And that is what this forum is about! Most BS would be over the moon to see their WS trying so hard to fix it. I would be. And you deserve support for that fact alone.

Short ThreadJack
I feel similar to Gamma.

I had several chances to commit Adultery before my wife did. I chose not to do that to Myself, My Wife, and our Marriage. However, she made the choice of bringing adultery into our marriage for me. If I knew about her future adultery back then, I may have chosen very differently when it came to my own opportunities to commit adultery.

Due to my changed perception from not even considering adultery before her A, to my new perception as seeing those incidents as "Missed Opportunities" I recognize that my once high boundaries have dropped to a very low state. Since I am able to recognize this, and really don't want to commit adultery, I have initiated E.P.'s to protect my currently weak boundaries.
(I hope the weak boundaries are a temp think and will strengthen with recovery)

Why not?

Isn't Plan A for the BS? It's to end the A, clear the fog etc?

I'm the WS... If Plan A can benefit me/my situation please let me know how!

You can always benefit from Plan A. Usually it's used by WS. But I think any marriage can benefit from the carrot part of the plan (no AOs, no selfish demands, no independent behaviours, etc).

Very true. It's actually what I'm already trying to do. Be in the marriage, just better.

Plan-A is for anyone who wants to persuade there spouse to stay in the marriage by showing them how good marriage with you could be.

Sounds kinda like what you want, yes?

Sounds exactly like what I want. I hadn't read up on it, thinking it wasn't for my situation but I definitely will now. Thanks.

Small update:

BH got home from the clinic (he has clinicals 3x/wk) got on the phone with a new (guy) friend almost immediately (I could hear the guys voice, not a woman FYI) and left within 1/2 hour for the evening.

I gave him a big kiss, hug and "how was your day" when he got home which he responded well to but when he ate and turned around and just left... I was crushed. I just broke down crying. He asked why and I talked a little but I DIDN'T WANT TO CRY! I couldn't help it.

I had every intention of being nice, sweet and lighthearted and damnit if I couldn't do it. I don't know how some of you guys hold it together when your WS do it to go off with the AP. Koudos to you all.

ML- Sorry you are hear but I applaud your honesty and desire to recover your marriage. Your husband's justifyable anger may be hard for him to get past. I'm sure it won't happen quickly.

I'm not saying you should bring the subject up, but how much have the two of you discussed the affairs? What does he say about it when you do or have talked about it?

I know I would be doing backflips and handstands if my WW made any effort towards reconciliation. Keep doing the best you can and I suggest you try some of the Plan A techniques as well.

We really don't talk about the As. As I'm sure you can understand, I don't want to talk about them, my skin crawls and my stomach turns. But as it has been suggested, we may need to talk about them more.

I am trying to follow a type of "reversed" Plan A, I suppose.

Thanks. I'm not going to quit.

And so it begins...

I checked his phone this morning. Definite EA with an exgirlfriend who lives in Dallas (We're in El Paso). So far them just trading "I love you"s. There were some texts to the guy whose house he went over last night saying, "Come on, let me come over and drink. I need to get away from my wife."

When you guys are right, you're right... sadly

So how do you document text message convos? I don't know if I'm going to be able to install one of those programs on his phone or not but I'm definitely going to try. Also a keylogger on his laptop but I have to wait to do that until he goes to class later this morning and this evening...

I feel like I totally deserve it, not because of the usual guilt but because I actually physically cheated first.

I still have a chance to save my marriage. That's the way I see it.

So now the questions. I know I have to gather some hard proof before I confront him. How is an EA different from a PA besides that they're not having sex?

I know the girl is single. I know her name and now I have her phone number. What do I do next?

And what do I do when I hear the inevitable, "Well you did it first," "At least I didn't have sex with her"?

Is exposure the same?

When I have enough evidence and I tell him, NC with her and he says no? They've been friends for years and I see him saying that she's been in his life longer, he's not going to dump his "friend" over his wife etc or something to the like, then what is my plan? What do I do then?

I'm sorry I never thought this would happen and now I'm just thinking of questions as they come up.

I'm totally in shock.

Just wanted you to know you're being heard. The board will pick up as the day goes on, so try to be calm and methodical 'til you get some more advice.

From what I've seen/experienced ( ) a PA makes the adultery much more entrenched. The WS gets even foggier and usually acts more extreme - more up, more down, more angry, more elated, whatever the WS feels at the moment.

I briefly skimmed your thread, so don't know all of the details, but are you sure it's not a PA?

Will post this now and write more as I think of it. I'm sorry you're in this situation.

So. Two ways to break this down.

1) Actions you can take to kill the affair.
*Expose. Contact family, friends, OW's family, any person of influence over your WH. Inform them that your husband and this OW have begun an inappropriate relationship, and ask for their help/support as you fight for your marriage. (There are good verbatim examples of what to say here in other threads, I'll see if I can dig them up.)

*Plan A. You've already been doing this, but now it's w/in the realm of an affair. That means Carrot and Stick. (Again, will find that link, though I think it may already been in your thread...) You put forward the best you and the best picture of what your M can be while not condoning anything A-related.

*Continue snooping. Make sure you have your intel in order (documented, copied, stored somewhere safe/third party, etc.) and plan in place when you confront your WH.


2) What if's and the questions/counter-questions running through your mind. Will try to come back and address these in a bit.

I'm not sure of anything at this point. I am going to keep digging. With this girl, like I said, she's in Dallas-12hrs away so I guess there could have been something at some point if she came here but I just have to keep digging and see what I find.

Carrot and Stick of Plan A.

(((Margie)))

I'm so sorry this is the case. No matter what you did - there is no JUSTIFICATION for his affair. If he couldn't get over your affairs he had the right to walk away, he does not have the right to have an affair of his own.

Get ready cuz you got some fighting to do. You're familiar with the basics right? Plan A/B and Exposure?

Oh and i don't think any of those programs that are posted in the snooping post will work on his phone. It's an older Motorola something. It's square like the Karma but that's not it.

I am familiar. I'd been reading all over the site but more to see what the BSs were doing, since at the time, I "wasn't" a BS. Now I am, I'll be reading everything over again.

Agree w/ Vibrissa. Your actions do not excuse his. We always have choices. If he could not work through your infidelity, he could choose to walk away. He didn't. Nothing changes the fact that this was his choice.

If he starts making excuses or throwing your history at you, I think the best thing is to acknowledge that yes, you own those decisions and are putting in the work necessary to prevent any such situations/choices from happening again. BUT YOUR PAST DOES NOT EXCUSE HIS DECISIONS. You are as any other BS - betrayed and hurt, and you have the right to a happy, fulfilling marriage...with only two people in it. Until there are only two people in it, you will fight this attack as you see fit.

(Not advising you to say all of that, kind of speaking off the cuff. Just trying to give you something to start with before the cavalry arrives.)

Thank you. I really do appreciate it.

I'm still just in so much shock and trying to figure out how I'm going to collect the evidence off of his phone. Still trying to find the model...

Me too!
But hey, I'v been told I'm bitter due to my own experiance

Yes you do, but now it will be much, much harder.
A BS who goes Wayward feels more entiteled and justified in there actions erlier on in the A than most other Waywards


I think the best thing you could do is own that responsability. He's right, you did. In the real world that does not excuse what he is doing, but in his head it is a HUGE jestification.

Don't bet on this just yet, lets see what a little more snooping comes up with.

More plan-A, untill you can't...Then Plan-B
There is no plan-C, if neither A, or B work......Plan-D

Why?

Why did I think this would never happen and why am I in shock?

I don't know. It's like house fires or victims of crime. You always think it's going to be someone else, but not you. I don't know how to describe it. I don't care to. It happened and now I have to accept it.

Forward them to your phone or to your email account. (Delete the forward off his phone when you're done.)

Because you hold others to a higher moral standard than you hold yourself.






Ok, I'll stop preaching and try to help you stop this madness.

Other than her name, what do you know about OW?

You need the following.

Her full name, Address, phone number, FaceBook page, employer
Parents and siblings name, Address, Phone number
Any additional info would be helpful, but not as critical.

Does your Husband have a Facebook page?

You need to find out what his top Emotional needs are, if you cant get them directly from him, make an educated guess and start trying to meet them.



Also, the reason he does not want SF from you is because he feels that would be cheating on the OW...

Yes, that's right, it's Idiotic, but true.

This is also why I fear the relationship has gone Physical.

ML, I am so sorry about this. I can understand your fears. As a FWW, I would have the same ones.

As far as "you did it first" goes, well, yes, you did it first. But in truth, if we believe adultery is wrong, that belief should be based on the moral-ness of adultery, not based on who else does or doesn't do it. So I was trying to imagine what I would say. I would probably say something like, "You are right, I did cheat, and that was so wrong and hurtful. Affairs are always wrong and hurtful." I would want to add a phrase about how he must know how I am hurting because he hurt that way too, but I would be good and hold my tongue.

As far as the other goes, his friendship and NC, you can't make the choice for him. I knew my affair was wrong, but I hung onto it. After it ended, I knew I should confess, but I held on some more. Until I made the choice. And I don't think there's anything anyone could have said that would have MADE me do it. He may very well say he won't end contact, he's been friends with her longer. But that doesn't mean he'll stick to it. People say a lot of things when they are on the defensive. In the clear light of day, they often change their minds.

I have suffered a couple of traumas in my life at the hands of others. I never even got acknowledgement or apology. But I still wouldn't be happy if they suffered harm. So no matter what you did, the fact is that no one should have to go through the pain of infidelity, and I am sorry you are suffering.

ok I sent the messages to my phone, made sure to delete the forward. Checked the phone for anything else-nothing found. Saved and deleted the messages out of my inbox.

Later I'll be able to upload them to the computer and save them somewhere that way.

and yes they both have Facebooks. She's on my friends list. I'll find out all the info on her that I can when he goes to school today.

Ok, wait until you have more on OW.

Do not warn BH/WH about exposure, when it is time, just do it and do it all at once.
(Facebook is an awesome exposure tool)

No need to confront BH/WH about his A, after exposure he will confront you.

Who all knows about your two ON'S?
Do his parent's know, and how is your relationship with them?

The first thing out of his mouth after exposure will be Justification, Justification, and more Justifications.... Exposure targets that are influential on him are more likely to disregard his justifications if they already know of your of your prier infidelity and your regret of that infidelity.

I thought about using facebook. Everyone we know is on there. I can post on mine, hers and his all at once.

My parents and his parents know I cheated. He's also had facebook statuses in the past saying something to the effect of having been cheated on so people do know.

Right now he's not talking to his parents. Had a little blowout a little over a month ago. I'm still planning on sending his mom flowers for Mother's Day. We get along pretty good. I've talked to them on a few occasions and BH/WH has talked to them on a few occasions about marital problems here and there. They try to stay neutral.

Thats why its so great.

What about?
It could be relevant.



They aren't the "We just want him to be happy" type are they?

His parents are in Dallas and we're in El Paso. We were going to meet them halfway, in Midland, with the kids so they could have the kids for Spring Break. We broke down only two hours out of El Paso and his parents wouldn't drive the extra couple of hours to come get them. That's why he's mad and hasn't really talked to them.

They always say they're praying for us. That's what they said when they found out about my As. I don't know how they'll react when the roles are reversed.

Question: How much evidence is enough to expose? The texts I have, one says, "I love you, after 12 yrs I can say that" or something of the like. I'm sure he could say he meant it as a "friend". Ya know? The other one was talking about thinking about her body parts... still no evidence of PA. Gotta wait till he goes to school so I can check his laptop but I really doubt there was a PA... could be wrong, of course.

Interesting.

Do his parents know OW?

I think they know of her. They went to high school together. They're not great friends or anything. Just know each other.

Thats up to you, but I think you need a little more.

This may be helpful.

Exposure is not to punish the WS, or turn everyone against WS, it's purpose is to kill the affair. When you expose you ask those you expose to; to help you save your marriage.

Your In-Laws may be able to help by contacting OW and her Parents and ask her to stay out of there son's marriage and there grandchildren family.

{{{{{{{{Margie}}}}}}}}}

I was thinking about you and hoping your situation was improving!!

My thoughts (sadly): His EA is probably PA too. And yes, disgustingly, him not wanting SF with you probably means he's getting it elsewhere or feels like he's cheating on OW (I found emails to this effect exchanged between my WH and POSOW. Was like a knife in my heart).

First thing, I don't think that "I love you I can say that after 12 years" can possibly be construed as friendly. It's romantic. Star crossed lovers, and all that. So yes, I would call his mom and talk to her.

Expose first. Don't tell him about it.

Will post more as I think of it. I'm so sorry we were right!

Oh what about when I expose. And he says, "I never did that to you!" He made me tell our mothers and like I said, sometimes had something on his Facebook status about it. He never really exposed me like I am about to do to him...

Have a few errands to run now that he left. When I get back I'll be all over his laptop and will update. Wish me luck.

It doesn't matter what he says to you. He didn't do it to you and did your marriage work? TRUST in MB!! He's going to be angry, for sure. Very angry. But, your situation was also different from his. You had a couple ONS, you were not involved in a relationship with either man and you definitely did not tell them you loved them.

He is much deeper under the fog, because he has emotion invested in this as well.

Replay with "How do you feel about Burgers for dinner?"

Or

"Would you like a glass of sweet tea?"

For some reason I find this statement Disturbing!

Mainly because it seems rather dismissive.

Oh no, I did NOT mean to dismiss Margie's actions!! They were wrong wrong wrong!!! And even Margie recognizes that!

All I meant was.....yes, he never did that to her. But she also never carried on a relationship that he had to expose to end it. She chose to end it herself and is working hard on the marriage. He's having at LEAST a long term EA.

Margie,

I fled your first thread like my hair was on fire once it was determined that your current marriage is adultery born. Around here they are called affairages. I don�t participate in those threads. If my WxW got married to her POSOM (and they are still living together) and then one day showed up here looking for advice to save her affairage because, Horrors!! He�s Cheating. I am SOOOOO shocked! Please Help Me!! Simply put, I would not be a happy camper if posters here tried to help. I would be quite offended.

I notice now that a few others that posted to you that day have not returned either.

I don�t want to know anything about your first husband; how abusive he was, deadbeat, blah, blah, frikkity justified blah. Whatever. My sympathies are with him.

That said, I noticed all the traffic on your thread today and see that one of my first posts to you suggested your WH is indeed wayward was correct.

You started out as an affairage, you have committed adultery twice and now your husband is wayward again.

Your situation is nearly impossible to recover. Harley will try to help affairages but even he indicates he has a very low outcome for recovery for these.

So the only thing I will say to you and never return to your thread is that only the Harleys can help you now. If it is too expensive for you then the value of your affairage is very, very low.

Good luck.

I had forgotten she was still married when she started dating her current husband.
(This is why multiple threads about the same subject by the same poster are a bad idea)

Yea, affairages have a dismally low likelihood of survival.

Margie, how long have you been married to your current husband?









Edit..........
Found it, 6yrs.

5 1/2 yrs.

I had forgotten you were married too at the beginning of your relationship.

Margie, yes, chances of survival are low. Your best bet is MB and the Harleys.

And if it ends.....you know the path for next time. Good luck.

Thats about the max shelf life of an Affairage.




I have a question.
At one point you asked WH/BH/OM1 to move out of your home.
Now you want to save your marriage.

What has changed?

At the time I thought I wanted freedom, I wanted out, I wanted to be on my own.

I grew up.

I guess thanks for the advice and support since I won't be getting much anymore.

Margie, you will still have support and advice. Keep posting. Keep trying. Good luck.

There are other FWW's on here who have fantastic marriages now. Keep that in mind. Your best bet REALLY is MB.

Thank you NP. I just went through his laptop and nothing. I'm thinking there might be more to come since the "I love you" TM was just from 3am this morning. I may have caught this really new?

I don't know! I want to expose him but at the same time, I know I don't really have much evidence to go on...

Yes I am in an affairage. I don't think that means I shouldn't try and keep my marriage together.

Do you have access to his emails?

Yup, at least what I know about...? Nothing there, nothing in the trash, nothing on Facebook messages...

How did that work out for you?

What did you learn?

Did you you hide your relationship with BH/WH/OM1 from you first husband before you where divorced?

Has your first husband ever considered your relationship with BH/WH/OM1 to be Adoultirouse?

I am asking these questions for a reason.

Well it didn't work out. I wanted him back. Obviously.

I learned that I love my husband and I want to be in this marriage but I want it to be a good marriage also.

My XH knew about BH/WH while we were dating, before the divorce. They had met each other when XH came to get my daughters for the summer. He (XH) brought his GF at the time with him. XH never considered me and BH/WH an adulterous relationship. He had his own relationship(s) going on.

If you are asking for a certain reason, I'm trying to answer as honestly as possible. I'd like to know and get whatever help I can.

God I want to expose BH/WH... I KNOW I don't have enough to go on, but at the same time, it's enough for me, ya know?

Thank you for still helping.

I feel a bit more reserved now, knowing your history that I didn't this morning. Guess that goes to show me I shouldn't trust and assume.

Given just the few comments seen here, Margie, I think you already know that an affairage is a bit of a big deal. Please add something accordingly to your sig line.

That doesn't change the fact that you are now a BS, but it does change the dynamics of the relationship anyone would be advising you to fix.

I don't have any other advice right at the moment other than what was already said: counsel w/ the Harleys. I am not judging you (check my sig) or saying this is hopeless or anything else - just that I need a bit of time to figure out if I have any other worthwhile advice.

Margie I'm sorry you are going through all of this. Just wanted to say something.



MANY people, especially in our generation DO NOT respect the institution of Marriage. We've bought into the Cult of True Love and Soulmates. Everything at the expense of finding 'The One'.

However, marriage is an important institution and it's degradation is only serving to destroy the glue that holds our society together.

You are living the consequences of the degeneration of the institution of marriage, and your children are paying the consequences.

It doesn't matter that your ex had his own girlfriends. It doesn't matter that he didn't see your relationship as adultery. It is, plain and simple. It doesn't matter that he shared your equally skewed vision of marriage and relationships. His wrongs doesn't make your wrongs right.

You are now reaping the benefits of your lack of boundaries and respect for marriage, both by your own actions and the actions of the person you chose to have your affair with. No matter how great a person, he has the same disrespect for marriage.

Marriage only works if you value and respect it. If you MEAN the commitment to BETTER AND WORSE. It means you FORSAKE all others until the DAY marriage is dissolved (and people even recommend up to 2 years after the marriage is over).

You are learning the hard way that Marriage needs to be respected. Whether you like it or not, your marriage was based in an affair and as such it's foundation was shoddy and now your house is crumbling down around you from the actions of both YOU and your HUSBAND.

Can this be saved? There is a very small chance. Should it be saved? Yes, if only for the sake of the innocent children you've brought into this mess.

However it will be hard because the basic premise on which you and your husband, both, operate in this relationship is flawed. You don't commit to marriage only when it's easy and when it's not working out you ask for a separation and go find someone else. If you are looking outside your marriage, end it.

You may make the changes in your thinking and your behavior that will save your marriage, he may not - only time will tell.

People complain that they don't want to stay in an unhappy marriage. Don't. You have the tools now to build a happy one.

Thank you both. I am taking everything in and into account.

I am four years out from D-Day, so I know the chronology is a little different, and no, I don't have any experience in the affairage stuff. But I want to ask you a few questions:

Do you love your H?

Have you truly repented of you waywardness?

Are you married to your H?

Is it a legal marriage?

If you answered yes to all of these questions, then my advice is to make sure you have learned what you can learn from the unchangeable past and focus on saving your marriage of the present. Keep making amends as a FWW, but also do not be afraid to use the tools of the BS.

Margie,

I am too lazy to try and catch up with everything, but as I understand it your H has had an A as well.

You have also heard from those that don't think much of an affairage, as it is called. I don't either because as someone stated it shows a distinct lack of appreciation of the basis of a marriage and the vows we take.

Harley points out that many affairage's don't work because the people in them were running from something else and bring a lot of baggage into the affairage with the result that mistakes are repeated.

So let me lecture you for a moment. You now have both broken your vows to one another. You have both demonstrated...yet again, that you don't have boundaries nor a deep appreciation for institution called marriage. So what has changed?

I ask you this because until you and your H actually learn about marriage, what it means, what honor means and what it means to maintain your vows, there will be no successful outcome for this marriage. First and foremost you two need to really sit down and ask "What does marriage mean to us? Are we willing to honor our vows? Are we willing to learn to the tools (MB as an example) and then the moral depth it requires to make a successful marriage?

If the answers are no as stated in word and confirmed by deed, then stop now and end this farce. If the answers are yes by both of you, if you both are willing to work, folks here will help you, the MB people will help you.

It really is your call. You did it first, he did it second, and you both did it to others as well as each other. When does this sort of thinking stop?

Think about it.

JL

Hi Margie,

Please listen to JL who just posted, as in imho he has said it best. I am Not one to condemn an affairage or refuse to talk to someone involved in one, but neither am I one who respects anyone who dissrrespects the sacred instiution of marriage. Vibrissa said that also to you. I have been married now to the same woman for 41+ years!

You need to sit down like tonight or ASAP with your husband and you guys need to 'grow up' and talk sincerely about how you each value marriage and how you value Your marriage. Neither of you have been doing that. Margie, I don't care if it takes 5 or 8 hours of continueous discussion but you need to do this now and hash it out, because it is so evident neither of you have done this before. You are just so dancing around the real issues with your concern about his reaction stuff, about no SF, that separate thread of your's, and now with all your concern about the technical stuff regarding your exposure of his affair that you are lost in the forest.

To be quite honest, it is sounding to me like this is being made up, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Answer one question Margie, if you love this man and you have been married for 6 years, and if you respect the institution of marriage, why are you guys unable to converse, communicate and be honest?

All I can say is that as a mom Margie, if you do not try to come to grips with Your values, Your behavior, and Your marriage now, in about 10 years the impact on your three kids is going to hit you right in your face hard. You have the opportunity now with all of the advice and principles here, so don't neglect that and wake up some day ten years from now and bemoan the fact that you wish you had.

Good Luck,

Tom

The time is NOW...I consider myself still married....My WH moved out two years ago, still seeing OW. I have not even considered dating yet...I will consider it once I have those divorce papers in my hands. Some people may think I am foolish for doing this...I call it respecting my M vows. Why would I stoop to WH level. I am listening to my heart and it is not ready yet, its getting there, but I am not ready to give up on my M quite yet.

I am on this website and I have learned how to build a healthy relationship, with BOUNDARIES. With or without my WH, hopefully someday I will be able to have one. When I am ready on the inside to move on, I will divorce my WH and date.

This is the respect that, if everyone had it, will help you to have a happy M. It is the respect I am giving to my M vows. It is the respect I am giving to WH and DS. It is also the respect I am giving to someone else I may date in the future.

The time for you is NOW. For you both to learn this respect. What is the point of M vows if they dont mean anything. Marriage takes work to be happy. If you both cannot honor your M vows, through thick and thin, then the M is doomed.

Do the work and Good Luck.

Yes to all 4.

I will.

What has changed is my way of thinking about marriage. And that I found this site.

For me the answers to your questions are yes but I don't know if he's ready to sit down and have that talk yet.

I totally understand what your guys are saying about respecting my vows, my marriage and my husband. I want to have this talk with him but I think if I do it now I'll just get it thrown in my face. If (since) he's having an A right now, isn't he in the fog of that, that's not going to let him really talk to me honestly about it.

I want my marriage, I have learned so much since I've been here on MB, I've been going to IC, I've been working on it honestly.

No, none of this was made up, I really wish it was! Thank you for the help you have given me.

Yes, Margie, you need to talk to your husband.

Okay, so you cheated. YOU are willing to make the changes necessary to fix your marriage. Now HE is cheating. Two wrongs don't make a right. Sit down and talk to him. Stop being afraid that he'll throw it in your face - just respond, "I am willing to do anything to fix our marriage NOW."

Thank you NP. As much as I want to confront him I do want to install a key logger and either prove or disprove everything.

I don't understand. If I haven't confronted or exposed him yet because of lack of evidence, am I in Plan A? Or just in limbo until I do confront and expose?

Are you following the Plan A steps? If so, then you're in Plan A. If not, then yes, you're just in limbo.

And expose BEFORE confronting.

I am following the Plan A steps so I guess that answers that.

Just to be clear, besides my kids, right now my marriage is the most important thing to me. For awhile, when H was moved out and I had my ONS, I didn't know if I wanted to be married and I didn't know if I loved him. I am so beyond sure now that I love him and that I am willing to work on our marriage as hard and for as long as it takes. I almost wish I could go back to the time when I didn't care because it was so easy-and selfish-then. But if it's going to help repair what is broken than the pain is worth it in the end. I see how our M started on sand and I understand that I didn't do my XH and our marriage justice. I was younger and ignorant. I thought I knew it all and I thought I could do whatever I wanted and get away with it. I'm paying for it now and I realize my mistakes so clearly... I don't know what else to say, I just feel like I had to get that out. I still feel like there's so much in me that I need to "get out". Thank you all who have helped. I understand those who just want to steer clear and it's my fault that I won't benefit from the advice of those people.

Please don't give up on me. This is the only place I have to go/people I have to talk to.

Margie, let me float an idea to you. I believe that having their parents in love in a healthy marriage is very important to children. So important, in fact, that I believe that prioritizing children before marriage is actually not in the children's best interest. By placing their mother FIRST in my life, and actively choosing her over them when necessary (such as when there is not enough time in a week for both, an unfortunate occurrence that is thankfully rare, and with better management becoming LESS rare), I believe that I am actually doing the most important thing I can do for my kids.

I have heard that before. I know that fixing, repairing and maintaining my marriage is more important for the children. Thank you for that. I do need to be reminded now and then that I need to take care of myself for the kids, too.

I'm installing a key logger as I type...

My stomach is in knots, thinking about what I might find and see and also thinking that he's going to find it.

He's gone all day until about 6pm and I'm just going to be freaking out until then. I don't know how I'm going to act normal when he gets here.

Am I doing the right thing? I feel like I'm going to pass out!

Any bit of support here would be appreciated.

Well. My WH detected the key logger on his comp. I denied, denied, denied (until one day I "ran amok," as someone put it, and confronted him with everything I had gotten from it). If he ever asks you - "wasn't me."

Be patient. It may take a couple days for anything to come up to give you more evidence.

And yes, you are doing the right thing. If he finds out and gets mad at you for snooping (AFTER you have your evidence), tell him, "Well, why did you make it necessary for me to snoop?"

Just breathe......
Then you need to start preparing yourself for what you may find and read. This is an uphill battle and it is a difficult battle.
Then you need to form a plan.

Thank you.

Now I'm having an issue with the logger. The E-mail part isn't working. The part where they email you the log? One of the most important parts! I'm getting in contact w/ customer service as we speak. It's just stressing the ---- outta me!!!

Sorry for venting.

Margie,

Calm down. Software installation is often a pain.

I want to offer you some further thoughts on marriage. The most important is to realize that when you say vows such as you will love one another through sickness and health, it does not mean you will "feel in-love" no one can promise that. What that vow means is that you will treat your spouse in a loving manner, no matter the situation. This is an ACTION not a feeling and therefore it is something you can control.

I feel you need to have a sit down with your H and plant a few seeds concerning your desires to be married and what marriage is starting to mean to you. You two need to define to each other what you need, want it means and what you are promising.

You should be in plan A right now. That means exposure, it also means you trying to meet his needs, and it means you are in a "giver" mentality. This last part is why Plan A is NOT a marriage strategy. For a good marriage you and your H's giver and taker should be balanced, not necessary equal, but balanced. Plan A does not acheive that because it is meant to address the affair and that is why there is a plan B as well.

Hang in there and continue to read and think. You two can make this work, but you both need to see the power of marriage. You are not unique in not seeing the power because many feel it is like living together or going steady. It is not and it is the depth of the vows that make this so.

All in all marriage vows say simply I will quit looking for better, I will enjoy what I have decided upon, and I will love this person for the rest of my life. Big stuff Margie, very big stuff.

Think about it.

God Bless,

JL

Wile technicaly this does not change the fact that you are in a affairiage..... Having a BS that does not feel Betrayed in any way changes my perceprion of your Affairage.

I will continue to try and help you.

How about in 20yrs?


What are you going to do next time you feel this way?

Who can say how they will feel in 20yrs? All I know is that I want my M to my H to come out on top after all of this crap. I know that I love him to death right now. I also know that I will not always feel this way. I don't know if it is the desperation of possibly losing him that is kicking me in the butt right now or what. I do know that I have to work hard to make this M work, and not just right now but for the rest of our lives. I really do know and understand this.

I am just in pieces right now...

I never want to feel this way again. Nor would I ever in my life want my H to ever feel like this again. I know what went on/what is going on is just wrong. I don't want to find someone else, I don't want to be with someone else, ever. I want THIS marriage with MY H.

That's just all...

I feel like I'm going to give you the "wrong" answer sometimes. I don't know what you're looking for so forgive me for the babbling. This is how I feel, though.

I never had to type/write/say it in so much detail before.

First of all, your right you don't know how you will feel in 20 years; but isn't that the point of marriage vows????? That we can trust that we will always come together and solve any problems or issues. So, IMHO - who cares and why are you worrying about how you may or may not feel in 20 years.

Second, there are no right or wrong answers - your feelings are just that - YOUR FEELINGS. No one can tell you how to feel. That is part of what this forum is for; for you to vent and express. Then you can get back to executing a great plan A. Because you will have to vent the feelings some where, maybe try a journal. That way you can look back and reflect on some of your feelings.

Gack asked.

Margie. I know what you mean about the "wrong answer" feeling. Especially back around D-day, and for many many months afterward, I could drive myself neurotic with that type of thinking.

The key to this (and to growing, overcoming your affair, earning your F, etc.) is to know yourself. Be humble, self-reflect, and strive to better yourself (= honesty, integrity, virtue, etc.).

The more you know yourself, the more confident you will be in your answers. The more humble you are, the more open you are to correction or seeing a different point of view if someone disagrees with your answers. The more you better yourself, the better decisions you will make and the better answers you will be able to give.

Don't be afraid of being wrong. Just work on being honest with yourself and in all you do. Dishonesty (aside from being plain ol' wrong) creates more and more injustice, hardship, stress, anxiety, confusion, depression... Nothing good comes of it.

This doesn't always come easy. I still have to make myself sit down and just think and self-reflect. But I know that if I am committed to being honest and humble (and vulnerable, because that's what this makes you in a sense), I won't go wrong.

what is F?

Former
as in FWW, Former Wayward Wife.

"F" = Former. As in, Former Wayward Spouse = FWS.

I don't know how others on here view the designation, but I think of it as something I have to continually earn/keep. It's not like once I "got" it I'm done, it's more that I have irrevocably put the wayward in my history - I just have to constantly work to keep it there, in the past, and only the "former" now.

Sorry, just now read that.
My opinion is that I should not have to worry about how WH feels in 20 years. That we made a vow and a commitment to each other and whatever has to be done to make that work - should be done. Again, JMHO

Ok, today I plan on sitting down and talking to H about our marriage. Not about any A, no confrontation, no exposure (no evidence). I just mean following the advice you guys have given and talking about our marriage.

What questions am I asking?

Are you willing to keep our marriage?
Do you want this marriage?
What are you willing to do to keep our marriage? (if anything)

What am I going to talk about?

I think the point that Gack was getting at was....in 5,10,20 yrs from now when you dont feel as gung ho about your M....are you gonna bail or cheat? Or are you gonna do everything you can to make the M a happy one?

Maybe also talk about the commitment you made to each other when you took your vows?

This is a good chance to practice that whole self-reflection thing.

What do you want? What does marriage mean to you? What are your boundaries (hard to come up with this early, but something to think about), what is your plan?

Answer some of this stuff, then start figuring out how you want the conversation to go tonight. Keep in mind that any talking you do is w/ a WS, so... yeah.

this isn't going to be LBing? Talking heavy about our relationship?

No, just no DJ's (disrespectful judgements).

I'm not positive he is W yet...

If he was totally W I would have proof and if I had proof, I would have confronted and exposed...

Since I don't have the proof I'm stuck being sweet and nice and pretending nothing is wrong, putting on a face, putting up a front...

Blah I'm so worn down by this, lack of sleep etc sorry for venting...

Hang in there, Margie. This is the place to vent...We understand here more then most.

Hey Margie,

That is just great. Go for it!

Best of luck and prayers.

Tom

Margie,

You asked how to start this conversation.

I would suggest you consider the following.

1. What do you (margie) and H see as a good marriage?
2. What do you see as a great marriage?
3. What are your weaknesses and how can you each help the other address them?
4. What do you two need from one another, look at Harley's list of needs of discussion topics?
5. How do you need them met?
6. What have each of you learned from your experiences and this includes affairs? ( you need to learn something, you need to have grown for this to work.)

But, most of all Margie I would recommend that you start out by telling him what you have told us. You have been thinking about your marriage to H and the choices you have made. You have concluded from those thoughts several things:
1. You want to remain married to him because you do love him.
2. You want and probably so does he a better...much better marriage than you have had to date.

Next you tell him that you have been doing research and have found information that is guiding you, opening your eyes and letting you see a better approach to a great marriage.

And finally (please only say this if it is true), this approach is not WORK, it is just common sense and requires only a change in perspective to make the marriage much much better. You feel encouraged enough to approach him about your desire to seek a lifetime marriage to him and to make it something you both enjoy and grow into.

Just some thoughts. Hope they help.

JL

Hm. A few things. First:


Sooo....Yes. He is wayward, as you have illustrated.

Also, since they are exchanging ILY's and who knows what else, I think it's also safe to say he is "totally" wayward. (The debate over partial or total waywardness can be saved for another day.)

That aside, I would think you should follow the typical Plan A (which you also stated you were in, too lazy to go dig up the quote) and AVOID relationship talk. Right? I'll let the vets and those more used to guiding in these situations weigh in on that.

My point in the earlier post regarding self-reflection and figuring out what you want was just to get you thinking more clearly and concretely about where you want your life to go. If you want this M and understand why and have really internalized your more mature, in sickness and in health 'til death do us part commitment, then plan from there (e.g., Plan A, no relationship talks, etc.).

Or, if you're too far from that still, maybe J_L's suggestion is a better way to go. This is where I caution that you are dealing w/ a WS, though, so let me repeat... yeah.

May be too late and all moot by now anyway, as it's night and you all could be conversating and I'll just stop now.

Very good suggestions. I'll have to take notes and read them! LOL You made a good point with the "this is not WORK" because he has made it very clear that he does not want to work on it, he is tired of working on it but that I have the chance to possibly work enough to "win" him back.

And no, he's not home yet. Supposedly a doc at the clinic took "them all out" and he should be home soon. I fought the urge to TM back "and do you plan on "escaping" from me tonight with your friends?" but I DIDN'T! So proud, just said "have a good time, i'll see you soon!"

Thank you guys so much!

That's exactly my point.

Well?
(Or did I miss it?)

All I can say is that of course, at this point I feel like I want to work through the good and the bad. If this turns out as bad as it possibly can, and I'm trying to work through it, how bad could it be (unless it happened again in 5, 10, 20yrs). Ya know?

But, I feel like I am willing and especially armed with the MB site and all the help here that I can get through anything. For the moment it feels that way.

As it stands:

He apparently already had plans to go out tomorrow night. He got home late and was about to turn around and go out tonight with a (guy) friend too. The guy friend couldn't come up with anything to do, so H just went to sleep after playing on his laptop for about 1 1/2 hrs. I even asked to talk to him and he's all, "but I'm almost asleep."

He was getting tons of texts but his phone is in his pocket right now. I know I can get it out of his pocket, but he's been erasing texts. I'll get on his laptop to check the keylogger (since support hasn't gotten back to me about the email alert not working) before he wakes up in the morning unless curiosity just gets the best of me tonight. I don't know if I'm going to find any real evidence but wish me luck either way.

...Nothing on the laptop

Keylogger doesn't seem to be picking up Facebook chat damnit! What's up with that? Anyone know?

Absolutely innocent stuff on the phone...

Not that I'm not relieved... I mean the number of texts I went through matched up with the amount he was texting and there was nothing missing to where I thought anything was deleted. Times and everything match up.

But...it seems like he really just wants to get away from me. Texts to so many people saying, "Get me away from my crazy wife" type stuff.



So sad...

Just re-reading, and wanted to clarify: betraying our spouses puts them in an impossible situation. Asking someone to make a simple black-and-white decision right then about staying or leaving the M is nearly as impossible.

Excuse my poor wording in the above quote. What I was getting at is that your H had a choice when entering into an affair. At that moment, he could have chosen to leave the marriage, or he could choose the affair. Obviously we know what the preferred choice is. I think I was assuming a revenge affair aspect to this, as well, so that muddied the message a bit.

Just to clarify. And bump.

Thanks for the bump, sorry I was MIA all weekend. Trying to work on stuff.

I did have a long talk with him about our marriage, making my intentions clear of making it better. He brought up some issues that really sent him over the edge that had nothing to do with my As.

I'm starting to doubt an EA as he was home all weekend and there was NC to the woman. Not even an "sorry can't talk" or anything. But there were some definite lines crossed-going to singles sites. I think he's looking for an ego boost, not necessarily a girlfriend.

But right now, that's all I have concrete proof of. Without proof of an EA I can't expose or demand NC so I feel like I'm in limbo. I wish I could take a definite step here.

What issues did he bring up? Are they deal breakers? Can they be resolved? Does this mean he's still unwilling to work on the marriage?

I don't think he should be going to singles sites. That shows intention to cheat, even IF he isn't right now...

We got in a physical altercation in Feb. Not violent but physical. More me than him. When he left I got so angry I shot a gun in the house (I was alone, I didn't even break anything). He made me call the police later when he got home, I got arrested, he bailed me out. I've had to go to court a few times over it and I'm on a "probation" type program now.

My god I KNOW how stupid the whole thing was. It was the worst thing I've done, worse than the As to him, I think. I apologized profusely and talked to him about how I've acted since.

There was also another incident where we were arguing, I was holding a cigarette, he was in my face, the cigarette burned him on his leg (because he was standing over me-I didn't know the cigarette was touching him) and he smacked my hand because it was burning him.

I called the police at that time.

When talking this weekend he said how that could affect his career. He's in school for Radiation Therapy and said there was a guy who wasn't allowed to take his board exam because of a DUI. A domestic violence thing could ruin his chance of working.

These two incidents were within a few weeks of each other, so they were both 3 months or so.

I don't know how to explain or excuse my actions. They were awful and unforgivable.

However I don't know if his "wandering" or whatever it is, started before this time or after. If before, I'm sure I was sensing it, ya know?

If after, then that's his excuse for starting it and pulling away from me.

I have been seeing an IC now, am on medications, am acting better,etc...

Another issue was the house being clean which is easy enough to remedy.

and also, I don't agree with the singles sites either. I guess it's not as bad as what COULD be going on, it's just the only thing I have hard core PROOF of right now. I don't think it's enough to "call" him on. I really hope it's all I can find but I have to give it a little longer to find out for sure...

2x4 me at will... regarding my last post. I know I deserve it.

Oh and we did finally SF this weekend... after over a month...

I am not going to 2x4 you for the over the top anger stuff because you seem to be getting help for it. I never got physical with my H before I started meds, but I shredded him verbally a few times (more than a few).

As far as the sites go, did you say they were gone now? I'm sorry my memory is doing weird things right now. I would monitor for that type of thing for sure.

Just keep plugging. Keep being honest. Keep the EP's in place. Keep trying to meet those EN's. Every day. The time seems to drag so much at first. But then you look behind you and see the time that has past, and how things are better.

What do you mean are the sites "gone"? He tried to erase them from the history but I saw them on the keylogger. He visited them on Friday I think?

Funny thing is that there doesn't seem to be anything "bad" on there from after we had our talk. I don't know if he just really hasn't had the chance to really get on the computer and mess around or if maybe the talk got him thinking... one can hope...

Well keep it up, Margie!! And the SF too!

Sounds like you might be making a bit of progress - it's a hard road but it's a start!

Margie,

Ok, let me see if I have this right.

1. You have had two affairs on your H.
2. You two have had physical altercations: one with gun although he wasn't around when you discharged it and the second where you burned him with a cigerette and you call the police on him for slapping your hand away, that was burning him.
3. You are diligently looking to see if he is having an EA or PA but find no evidence and now you are at a loss as to what to do.

You two talked and apparently from I can glean from your response he has big issues with the physical altercations, not to mention your affairs and you are worried about his being on a single site? Have I got this right?

So tell me Margie, what are you doing to make him feel loved other than looking for how he has failed you? Have you realized yet, that YOUR actions need to be about YOU and what you have done in this relationship and not about him and what he may have or have not done in this relationship?

It seems to me that this man needs alot of reassuring that you have indeed turned the corner in your actions and that you are not just looking for ways to blame him or ruin his life.

Margie, you need to be talking to him, developing a plan for a good marriage and show him actions that support your words and your Plan. I am sure he is sceptical about what you say, but if he sees that your actions match your words, with time he will begin to believe.

You need to have patience and give this time. You are talking about alot of damage to this marriage and it will not be healed in a few months. It is good that you two had SF and I hope that you two continue to have it. One thing though. If you enjoy it let him know, but do not lie to him about your enjoyment. He may not pick up that you are faking at first but he will eventually and if that happens you will have added a huge lie to the problems. Honesty is crucial to a good marriage.

Hang in there Margie, you can do this, but you must stop looking for ways to blame him for the state of the marriage. He needs to see that you can cope with life in ways that will not damage your relationship with him and the marriage you two have.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

1. Yes
2. Yes These have been the two times that I ever got physical with him. Yes I take total responsibility for escalating these situations and making them as bad as they were. However, when he was hovering over me screaming and cussing in my face and I was sitting with my legs crossed and my hand resting on my lap, I had no idea the cigarette was burning him. All I knew is that he was screaming about how bad he wanted to hit me and then he did. I apologized later once I knew I had been burning his leg because I didn't know that until the police were there and he was telling his side of the story.

3. I am diligently looking and I wouldn't say "no" evidence but I would say not "enough" evidence.

He does understandably have issues with the physical altercations that have occurred recently. He forgets about all the yelling, screaming, cussing, throwing things, breaking things fights that we have had that were all him. I don't bring them up, throw them in his face or hold them against him... and yes I do have a problem with him being on "hornymatches.com".

I am talking, sharing my feeling, trying like HELL to get him to fill out the ENQ so I have some solid ground to go on, but in the mean time I'm just cleaning and cooking and talking and apologizing and trying to get out of him anything that I can do for him to make him ok at the moment.

I do TOTALLY realize that my actions have been my responsibility and they have, very possibly ruined my marriage.

I KNOW that he needs a lot of reassuring. I just don't know HOW or WHAT he needs. I'm flying blind. I am trying to back up my words with actions. I KNOW it will take time but I feel like I have a time limit:

He graduates in August at which point he will take his board test and look for a job-somewhere, anywhere in the US. Our plan was to move somewhere else, we don't know where yet, just wherever he was able to get a job. Maybe closer to family (Dallas or Cleveland) or somewhere in between or somewhere way out of the way (California, New York). We had no idea where. So I feel like I have from now until about October (when my probation program is up) and he passes his board test to make headway and make things at least "ok" or getting there.

Thank you for your response. You do give me hope. I would LOVE NOT to find something proving that he has cheated on me.

I don't know.

Margie,

Here is what I am seeing and why I am on you about things. You said

See this quote? Do you know what I read in it? Let me paraphrase it so that you see what I see Your first sentence is good. However, the start of the next sentence essentially says BUT... That "BUt" negates all you have said about understanding where he is coming from. A "but" or an "however" removes an apology, it removes an "I understand what you said...", it removes any statements that are meant to indicate apology, understanding, or empathy.

Do you see what I am saying? You really really have to focus on your actions and remove the "but/however" from your statements. You focus on correcting you and let him worry about fixing him.

One other thought, do you really think that cooking/cleaning and doing other things you don't want to do are going to make amends? You making a sacrifice without a POJA is wasting time. You being happy to see him, you doing things with him, you being happy and smiling will help him. You don't know his needs yet, but I would guess that high is SF (only if YOU enjoy it), you being happy, you enjoying his company, you helping him with things will go a long way in showing him that you really do want and need him in your life.

I will expand on the "you enjoying it" comment for a moment. Most men find SF very satisfying and enjoyable IF their spouse finds it enjoyable. Most men find an enthusiastic partner very much a turn on. So oddly our enjoyment depends on our spouse enjoying it. Not all men are like this, but most of them are. This little lesson actually carries over to other parts of life. Most men are happy when their W's are happy because it indicates to them that they are providing a life/lifestyle that is pleasing to the W and thus it means they(the men) are succeeding.

You will understand more and more of this as you read here, read the articles and experiment on your H. Try a few of these things and watch him/his body language/his behavior afterwards.

Just thoughts.

God Bless,

JL

Update:

More texts to that girl. Asking for sexy pictures, asking if they'd have a chance if he moved back to Dallas... Message back and forth from a girl on the single's site. She's asking to meet up. I don't think he's answered yet...

((Margie)) I'd say that's enough to establish an EA - asking for naughty pics and stuff. That should be enough for an exposure. IMO (and I'm no expert) you should consider doing a double exposure of both him and you. Approach it from the stand point of 'we've both made mistakes and need your support to build a better, healthy marriage.'

I can't remember if your own infidelities have been exposed but I know if it were me and a friend exposed her husbands EA to me and then after the fact I hear about her ONSs I'd feel pretty upset.

This way - he has nothing to throw at you to justify his EA. You simply tell him your view of marriage has changed and you want to build a healthy marriage, which requires you both come clean about your affairs.

Well there ya go. Solid proof. What's your plan?

I... I don't know.

I KNOW exposure is the thing to do.

I feel like I was just starting to make progress with us, him *letting* me be nice to him, joking around a little etc.

I know exposure will ruin that. And I'm afraid he will have the attitude of I'm gonna do whatever I want, I'm not "into" this marriage anyways (as he's made clear to me repeatedly) etc. He will hide his computer and his phone and I won't have access to anymore information and he may take my computer and lock it up to, at which point I will have no access to anything, especially you guys...

I was able to forward a few messages from his phone to mine from that girl last night but now the forwards are not coming through or they are blank... ?? What do you think is causing this?

My A's were exposed to our parents and his friends.

I do also have to wait for the keylogger I installed to start emailing me. I'm having issues with this. I can definitely get this done when he goes to take one of his exams tonight.

Ok I was able just now to get it to email me (he's sleeping). But now I don't have any proof of anything but what's still on his computer. It won't email me the logs it already has, I don't think. I'll have to look harder, later...

I'm afraid that I don't have enough proof.

I think he has a keylogger on my computer which would compromise the email the keylogger is sending to, the password, info on the keylogger etc.

What if he installs a keylogger on his laptop to catch my logging in password?? Or a keylogger finder-they have those you know!

I'm not really that afraid to expose but I am afraid, like I said, that my proof isn't solid enough and that I'll be made to look crazy....

please help

Margie, did you happen to get the number of the girl he was texting?

Ya I have her phone number, why?

What else can you find out about her from her phone number? You have her name? Tell his parents. Tell anyone you can on her side.

I have her name, have her on facebook. I know I could expose on my, his and her facebook. I'm just plain scared. He's going to take everything, figure out the keylogger, hide his phone (which is not a blackberry or iphone so I can't install a program on it).

I don't know anything about separation. As much as I've been reading on MB for the past couple of weeks I still feel lost right now! I don't know what I would post to expose them, what do I say and how?

Margie, you need to expose.

Even if he locks you out of everything - you already know it. My WH has completely locked me out of everything. But it doesn't mean I don't know what's going on still.

And after you expose, he's going to be angry. Just say calmly, (all together now!), "I will do what it takes to save our marriage!" As I've been told a few times, your marriage can survive his anger, but it CANNOT survive his infidelity.

Thank you so much NP for responding. You're the only one today!

But what do I post?

Friends and Family:

H and I have made some terrible mistakes in our marriage. The latest is his attempt at harboring an EA with OW and dating on single's sites. I will do everything in my power and use all my resources to save our marriage and I'd appreciate your help.

Let me find an example exposure letter (mine has been erased from here). Try not to sound so "blaming."

Well it seems I'm not very good at searching on here, can't find an exposure letter to save my life!

Start out by saying something like:

Dear (person),

I am saddened to inform you that my husband has been involved in an affair with OW. I have proof in the way of etc etc.

I love my husband and will do anything to save my marriage, but this affair must end! I am asking for your help in ensuring it does not continue.

And so on. That's all I can really remember from my exposure letter. Perhaps the vets have more advice? Wait before you send it, I am sure other people will be able to help more!!

I'm going to wait a bit until after he gets on the computer this afternoon. That way when I post it on Facebook it will be awhile before he sees it and can take it off of his wall.

After I post on Facebook and expose-since then it will be "out there", do I confront him on it?

I'm actually not too clear on this one - since I found out and confronted and then it was a few days before I found MB.....

So, bump. Anyone have advice?

I went about exposure by calling everyone who cared about our marriage -- including the other man's wife -- and leading with the following paragraph, more or less.

Hi, friend. I called you today for your advice. WW has been having an affair for the past X months with another man. Although it has not yet become sexual, she refuses to break it off with him and I'm at a loss what to do. I could really use your advice.

That was usually enough to get them on the side of the marriage. Simple and to the point. Do not try to distinguish "emotional affair" or "physical affair". An EA is just an affair that hasn't become sexual YET. It will, given time and conditions persisting as they are.

You're trying to prevent those conditions from occurring. You don't expose for revenge. You expose to end the affair. And the single most powerful exposure is usually the one to the "other side" of the affair: the affair partner's family or spouse.

Please, anyone. H just left to take an exam. I have full access to his computer right now.

Do I really have enough evidence to expose and confront?

Has anyone else's WS installed a keylogger to try and combat the one you installed, or used a keylogger detector?

I am getting so scared. I'm physically shaking. He kept asking what was wrong and I just said nothing. He definitely suspects something...

Thanks, the thing is, ya he texted asking if they could have a chance together if he went back to Dallas. That was all that was said though. She was like, I don't know, we'd have to spend time together etc. He was like, we talk all the time, I think we could be etc.

Is this really enough to expose on? I'm planning on exposing on Facebook. I don't have barely any family member phone numbers since I got my phone pretty recently. The "OW" isn't married. She hasn't really done anything...yet. From what it seems.

I'm afraid of exposing too early with not enough evidence...

After you expose do you confront them on it? Sit down and tell them what you know and what you did?

Kinda sounds like maybe she's not an OW, your husband just WANTS her to be??

In that case, maybe leave her alone until you have proof that she's actually involved with him, but expose to his family.

That's what I'm thinking NP. So the question remains, is this ENOUGH to expose on?

Margie,

The answer is yes, it is. You might want to consider the strategy of talking to your H and tell him you feel that his emotions and efforts are being directed elsewhere. Tell him you need his help in addressing this feeling.

He will ask you what you think you need and then you could answer. I would really like to know how you see our future going. What it would take for you to be happy in this marriage? I want to be part of your future but I feel I am being shut out.

Now you notice you haven't said anything about what you know, but you can certainly use what you know to probe his thinking and check out his responses. You can use your "intuition" better known as the keylogger to state your fears, state your wishes and ask about his feelings and intentions.

Start with that and see where things go.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks for the conversation starter JL. I'll have to tweak it a little to sound like something I might say. It sounds too professional to be something I'd just say, ya know? But thank you so much!

Margie,

Tweak away. The idea is to use the knowledge you have productively. You can expose, but you might profit from starting out talking to him and then see what he says to the girl. Knowledge is power and you are gaining knowledge not only about marriages and relationships but also his actions. Use it all.

God Bless,

JL

I sent him a link to the Policy of Radical Honesty. I told him I want to be/do this for him. I said, "It's nothing you have to do. It's something to be." Because he is adamant that he is tired of trying and he doesn't want to have to "do" anything. It's up to me to get him back.

Margie,

He is right. One does not really WORK on a marriage. What one learns to do, is ENJOY a marriage. The articles here are really how to ENJOY a good marriage. He does not have to work, he has to enjoy and your role is to make the marriage enjoyable to him. His role???? Make the marriage enjoyable for you. You two share this and you two deserve an enjoyable and respectful marriage to one another.

Do you see what I am driving at? Hope so.

God Bless,

JL

How'd it go, Margie?? How did he respond?

Well he opened it and said, "You think I'm lying to you about something?" and I just said, "Well I have in the past and I'm sorry for it. I just think it's something that would be good to read through for our marriage." He didn't say anything else about it. I know he at least read some of it. I don't know how much.

Nothing new on texts. Single's site visited. Nothing typed/no one talked to.

*sigh*

GREAT response, Margie! I think you handled that perfectly! Leave it for a little while for it to sink in and then revisit the issue.

Thanks.

I'm so stressed, not being able to eat, physically shaking at times-mostly when he gets on the computer. Don't know what to do.

I'm hoping to goodness that I'm doing a good Plan A. He is responding a little. Chatting casually more, joking around a little bit, SF last night so... it is a little encouraging and BOY do I NEED that now!

(((Margie))) just keep doing as good as you can. Keep snooping. I don't know if you were around a while back when Pep was talking about 'spoonfeeding' MB. You can spoonfeed your DH MB a little bit at a time. You work on living it as best you can and when he is interested, talk to him about it.

Just keep it up - I know it will be tough, but you can do it. Part of Plan A is also taking care of yourself. What are you doing for you right now?

I understand I'm supposed to be doing SOMETHING for myself but I don't know what. I'm afraid to leave H alone to do who knows what on the computer.

He's messaged someone about chatting on the computer tomorrow. I'll be here so I don't know what/how he plans on doing that.

I think I want to confront him tonight *before* he actually does something that I'll regret. Ya know? I have the chance to PREVENT something BEFORE it happens. How many people have that chance? I don't know what to do with this/how to approach it.

I sorry so many people dislike me because of the "affairage" aspect of this. I still really need help and advice in such a bad way I wish you guys were willing to help.

Thank you to those who have been helping me, especially, you, NP.

So I confronted him last night about the girl he asked if she'd be with him if he were in Dallas. He was pissed off, said I did the same thing to him was mostly mad that I had the nerve to go through his phone. He said that we're over and I said I'm going to keep trying and he said he won't let me. He said don't do anything for me, cook, this, that blah blah blah. He said he will not honor our marriage vows anymore. He insists that the conversation was all hypothetical and a joke.



I didn't tell him how I knew about the single's site and him talking to girls on there. I don't know why.

So I really think this could be over and not a fogbabble thing. There is a chance once he gets over his anger but I just don't know. I think it's too deep and that he just dislikes me.

Question: If/when he does chat with someone from the single's site, that will definitely be cheating, do I expose him then? What are your thoughts?

I'm hanging in there, still physically shaking really bad but I guess that's going to be my "thing". ANY help appreciated.

As for him not wanting me to do anything for him: He needed me to wake him up this morning and let me get his stuff ready (water, coffee, cigarettes) for him to go take an exam final. He even chatted a bit-I mean, it was just something about his shoes, but he didn't HAVE to talk to me.

I know he is furious. Last night the TM girl texted him, instead of b!Ich!in@ about me or anything he just said he was tired and going to bed. I'm starting to doubt my confrontation with him but at the same time, the things they were texting were inappropriate to say coming from a married man. How long am I supposed to stand for that?

Please guys, a little support/advice? I'm begging...

Hey Margie,

OF COURSE he was angry. And OF COURSE he is trying to turn it around and make it seem like you're at fault, instead of focusing on the issue, which is why he was doing that in the first place! That is the typical response from a WH. Trust me - I got all kinds of backlash, from being pathetic and a psycho, to "I can't trust you anymore with my stuff because you use it to hurt other people." AND, I've lost count of how many times he's said he's done with me and we're over.... When your WH says, "I don't respect our marriage vows anymore," say, "I do. Want to go for a walk?"

It's a NORMAL response, so don't worry.

He was angry he got caught. Just keep Plan A'ing. Don't break it. If he says, "I don't want anything from you," just say "Ok," and fix him some tea. The fact that this morning his mood has already improved SHOWS he was just having a temper tantrum.

Don't let it get to you. Stick to your Plan A with a vengeance!! He doesn't trust that your "new and improved" self is real - and you just have to show him how great a marriage with you CAN be!

And, just for yourself, Margie - when you start shaking, take ten deep breaths. Turn on some music and sing along. Go for a jog around the block. Make yourself laugh. Take care of yourself, don't fall apart!

And keep quiet about the singles site for now! Don't reveal you have any way of knowing what he's up to. Once he knows there's a keylogger that's it.

Thank you for your support. I'm starting to feel a little alone on this board but thank you.

I think he may have been tired and out of it this morning. He's already back to "don't get me anything, don't do anything for me" attitude.

I'm a little nervous. He's on the computer now and my keylogger isn't showing anything... I hope it's just a delay. I think he would have blown up again if he had found the keylogger so I don't think and I really hope that's not it!!

I'm putting on a pretty good game face I beieve. I'm thinking of leaving after Plan A. If I plan A for about a month and still nothing, I'm going to try to move to Ohio for Plan B. I need my family.

Margie:

You state that many here will not help you becasue you are in an affairage. That is thier choice. Your not the first in that status to come here and ask, and you will not be the last. The only thing for your to do, is not to complain about it. Accept the support that you do get, and be thankful that someone does post.

I stated to you earlier that you really needed to straighten yourself out first. That if you did THAT, you just might end up with a marriage worth saving.

Stay on that course.

You should be doing Plan A. Not becasue you "should do it for a month till you Plan B" But becasue for once, you will be giving of yourself with NO EXPECTATION of anything in return.

You have lived for 31 years in that type of lifestyle, so maybe JUST GIVING to someone, will start you on the path to recovery.

And YES, I get it. I have lived that way for a LONG time. "What was in it for me?" was always close to the surface. I have changed. I try to do the right thing and give away the result.

Make tea for your husband.
Get his morning stuff out for him.
Make his favorite meals.
Listen to him.

See what happens.

He has been on the other side, where YOU were denying what was going on and you were calling him nuts. So, your two days into to confronting HIM. Take your time. Prove that this M is MORE than just this weeks flavor.

You have been practicing MB for what, 2 weeks? Give it at least half a year. Then you have something.

LG

Thank you LG.

I am trying to just be a good and better person. But at the same time, I have to know what my Plans (A&B) are and what I plan on doing and for how long.

Right now I PLAN on doing good and I PLAN on being a better me. It's hard but it's just flat out the right thing to do. That's my PLAN for right now.

Thank you for your response. I do appreciate every little bit I get.

Margie,

Calm down and then sit down are write down your plan for being a better person and W. The execute the plan. Having it actually written down will help you focus, and it will allow you to do what you know you need to do whether or not your H is in a good mood or not.

He is under stress right now. His EA has been detected, he has finals, and he is dealing with a W that has cheated on him twice. His responses won't be rational until some of the stress is off. He is looking for ways to calm his life and this girl might appear to be a way. She won't be becuase there are children involved.

What you need to do is provide an attractive alternative. You need to provide hope and you need to refocus your life into things and channels that are productive and good. Sitting there shaking is not going to accomplish that. So start to make your plan concrete...put it in writing.

Hang in there.

God Bless,

JL

Plan A until you know that it is not working at all. Don't set a time limit to give up on it before you even know how effective it is! I have been (sort of, not very well) Plan A-ing since March 31. It is JUST starting to show vague signs of working. A month ago, I asked WH what he wanted of me emotionally and he said, "Nothing." He's only now starting to show signs that he DOES want more.

Keep watching the keylogger. You will know when it's time for Plan B.

And think positive, for goodness sake! Don't let his anger get to you....it's been a LONG time that your marriage has needed help, so don't expect it to turn around in a day or two. No matter how angry he gets, just stick to your Plan A. It is the best defense you have. As JL said, DON'T have any expectations of it or you will get discouraged too soon and too fast. Give him time to see what you've changed!

Thank you both. You've been a great help.

He found and disabled the keylogger and locked his computer. I feel totally lost and like all my power has been taken away!

My WH did that too. It only shows he's hiding something.

You still gave power as long as you Plan A!

Ask yourself and him this-what did you see in each other in the first place? Is it still there and can it be regained? Be the person he fell in love with! I know it is SO HARD but dont give up, Margie!!

Thanks NP. I'm trying, smiling, talking, chatting, laughing, joking etc.

I KNOW the Plan works in it's own way, one way or the other. But it certainly is so hard. Feels like I'm just rolling over and he's getting whatever he wants. Even though he doesn't want me... I feel like just leaving and getting out now before I go crazy. I know that's not the right way to go though.

Also, is there a Plan A letter? Is there something else I should be saying about this girl and his single's sites to him when/if the subject comes up?

Have you read up on the carrot AND stick of plan A? Don't forget the stick part! Plan A is not all about being a doormat. You gave certain expectations that you can make clear without lovebusting....

Going by the carrot and stick, I'm supposed to expose. I understand this and at times I've felt like I could and should expose but now I'm not so sure.

Do you think I have enough information to do this and for it to be effective? What exactly do I say/post as it will mostly be over Facebook if I do decide to do that.

And how do I find a keylogger on my computer!?! I'm paranoid now that he's put one on me.

So is chatting sexually with other women online considered an affair? cheating?

Do I expose this?

What do I say? How do I post this on Facebook?

The stick is about exposing, but it's is also about establishing boundaries and not accepting blame for your spouse having an affair. I don't know how to add a link to the Plan A thing or I would so you could read up on it.

I have the carrot/stick thread open and I'm reading it.

I'm just confused in this aspect. Is this an affair? I know it is something I don't want going on in my marriage and it is hurting my marriage. There is no chance of recovery with an affair going on. What about this?

Whether he's actively seeing a person or emotionally involved or physically involved, he IS hurting your marriage but seeking out other women. And that is not okay. It's already cheating. You don't bring third parties into a marriage.

Margie:

How about this for a little while:

Stop trying to equate his current actions to YOURS.

He is chatting, both to ex GF's and on singles sites.

You keep asking: "Is this an AFFAIR!"

So you can expose. Embarass your Husband, and I presume, get even....

How about if you just start Plan Aing.

Just do that. Work on yourself, and try and meet the EN's he allows you to meet.

Is he having an Affair? Maybe, and him locking down his computer makes me think that he is.

But you have ALOT of work to do before you can start claiming that "we are both guilty"

Do the "Carrot" part of Plan A. And stick with it. The info you need to fight his A will come. And then you use as needed.

Work on you.

That is the road to a better Margie.

With or without this WH.

LG

Thank you LG but I honestly am not trying to embarrass him by looking for an excuse to expose. I'm dreading exposure because I know it would start a tidal wave of anger from him. But I want to do the right thing and am trying to follow MB. If I SHOULD expose, I want to do that.

I am honestly working on me to the best of my ability. I really appreciate both of your help.

I think this is actually pretty stellar advice, LG! Try it for a few days before you think any more of exposing, Margie. .

Thank you, I am trying...so hard.

We all went out to dinner tonight for DD9 Bday. The past few days and even today he's been nice and chatty. For all of his talk of, "Don't do anything for me, don't get me anything, don't try anymore," he let me pull off a couple of small gestures. His graduation commencement was this evening and he was texting to me throughout. He even called to check up on me when I took too long to get home with the kids (got stuck in traffic).

Then we went home and he left for the night to go out with a friend.

That's all that's going on for right now. I'm working on being a better person, woman, wife and mother. Plan Aing.

Thank you for your help.

Keep it up Margie!!! Don't let the small stuff get u down! . At least his behaviour is showing signs of improvement, right?

It seems like he is responding to your plan A. Told you you could survive his anger!

I think he used his anger just to push me further away. He got angry over something "dumb" (I mean, the TM were innocent, right, so there was no reason to get angry) that being, my snooping in his phone. That way he could go completely to his pseudo-single life he was starting to live.

Now I do feel like this is allowing him to cake eat. He can chat, email, text to whoever whatever whenever he wants. He can go out drinking and playing with his friends whenever he wants but he still gets me meeting EN's at home. I know it works somehow, I'm just down right now and therefore not totally getting it. Thanks and sorry.

I knew it would happen, he's started erasing his text messages. It's not an iPhone so I can't install any kind of tracker.

I'm losing ground. It feels like I'm going backwards. Being the best me I can be and Plan Aing and showing him what a great wife and mother I can be is hard (duh, I knew it would be, I'm just ranting) and it hurts and I'm sad, just plain old sad.

Update

Logger is still installed and working. I don't know why it wasn't emailing for a few days. Weird.

I don't even want to see the logs anymore. I think I might be done. LB$ too low...

Message from him to TM girl talking about how crazy I was and that he's never cheated and never even came close. Kinda makes me nauseous. What if I didn't make the right decision?

OR, he's on to the fact that you are seeing his messages and he is trying to head you off. I mean, didn't he ask her before if they would have a chance if he moved back to Dallas?

Just keep Plan A'ing, Margie. Until you have solid, black and white proof he is having an affair, it's your best bet.

What decision are you questioning?

I'm questioning confronting him and accusing him of saying the things that I have proof that he said to her. The "I love you, after 12 yrs I can say that" and the thing about getting together if he were in Dallas... I know it's silly. I mean it's inappropriate stuff for a husband to be saying to another girl but still.

Maybe you're right about him knowing about the logger. I don't know, I really don't.

I thought you said he found the logger? So he knows it's there!

Same thing happened with WH. He stopped being careful after a while and that's when the gory stuff started pouring out.

Just be vigilant and patient and Plan A in the meantime.

That's true. I didn't think of it that way. As in he's playing me. I'm easily played...

ML, hang in there and work YOUR plan. I know it is very tough and I second guess myself all the time. He may know about the keylogger and that's why it stopped for a while. Maybe he turned it back on. I would treat the logger info with some scepticism for now and focus on your Plan A and consistency.

H "graduated" Friday night and went out partying Friday, last night (slept in till about 1pm, showered, changed and was out the door about 4:30) and is already gone partying today. I know he is planning on going out and partying every night if he can until the summer semester starts June 1? I think.

I am so much less stressed, angry or sad when I am not around him. Just wanted to share that.

If that's the way you are feeling Margie, are you still interested in working hard to save your marriage?

I don't think his attitude of partying every night is acceptable. What about his children? Does he take any responsibility for them? And if not, is this really a man you want to be married to?

Just trying to understand... for your own sake!

No, you're right and I'm totally on your page, NP. I'm rethinking the whole situation and although it would be great to beat the odds against us, if I'm feeling happy and free when he's only gone for a few hours, that's something very telling.

I have been thinking about moving back home, to Ohio. I'm looking up all the legaleese regarding it. H does care about his son but right now the selfishness is taking over big time. He yells more and more at DD11 and DD9 and complains and calls them names to me. That hurts more than anything and it's swaying me more and more towards just leaving.

I'm sure so many will be happy to see another affairage fall apart.

He didn't come home at all last night.

Makes me so angry. Not a call or text or anything. DS3 woke up asking for daddy this morning and all I could say is, "I don't know, he's not here."

Starting to make my decision against the M easy...

Affairs are devastating, Margie, and aside from the added difficulty of this being an affairage, you and your H have dealt some pretty critical blows to the M. While I still believe it's possible to recover, it will take years and years of hard work and dedication from both of you. This is nothing new.

I think what you should be doing right now is self-reflecting, (e.g., use JL's posts to you as a jumping-off point) and figuring out who you are, what you want, where you want your life to go. Answer those questions, and then come up with a plan re: how your M fits into all of that.

Right now you seem to be spending more time fretting and anxious and spinning your wheels, waiting for someone to figure this all out for you. That's not going to happen, and I suspect that may be partly why you aren't getting as much help. (I think the larger part is the affairage and the foggy details about all of the relationship stuff. But that is what it is.)

You need to help yourself. It's good you continue to post, and good that you post on others' threads. Keep reading. Set the hamster wheel fretting aside and be proactive. Think. Plan. Post here and get feedback. Rinse and repeat.


This may be true, but probably moreso in the case of unrepentant, foggy waywards. You are here, still posting, and you seem to be trying to do better.* You are human, and trying, and that will evoke some compassion.

HOWEVER. That should not be your focus right now. Who cares? Don't waste your time w/ thoughts/comments like that. It doesn't help your situation, and your focus should be on productive action for you right now.

That's all I got for now.




*In the classic words of Yoda: "Do or do not. There is no try." Requisite advice.

Thank you Ms. V. I'll be taking your post to heart. I really appreciate your help and time to post to me.

Well I'm not one of those. I'm sorry that you're stuck going through this. I agree with those above - you seem to be stuck in a holding pattern, not sure of what to do.

Develop your plan of action - that will give you a lot of strength and power. Figure out if you want to save this marriage, then figure out what kind of marriage you want and what it will take from YOU to achieve that.

If you want your marriage, continue in Plan A. Become the best wife you know how to be, using the MB philosophy. You should expose your husband. Texting other women, visiting dating sites, partying all night and not coming home, these are not appropriate husband behaviors.

Lay out your plan for recovery and what it will take from HIM to recover this marriage. Lay out what you will COMMIT to do for him to recover this marriage. Let him know that you will only stay in marriage under these conditions.

Accept that this marriage may not be salvageable. Too much damage may have been done. But use MB to affect the best personal recovery regardless of the outcome of your marriage - so that next time around you do better. If that is the only good that comes out of this, it will be enough.

I truly am sorry you're going through this. I know it hurts and may feel overwhelming at time. Make a plan, and stick to it. Then you'll be ACTING instead of reacting.

(((Margie)))

I am certainly acting right now. I can say that much. He's not acting or reacting to anything right now, unfortunately.

Margie, you're doing great.

His behaviour is unacceptable. He is not acting like a father or husband at all. And he's not even having an affair yet, just trying to! Imagine what it will be like when he actually finds someone low enough to cheat with him.

Decide if you really want this marriage. Affairage or not, if you see that there's good reason to save it, try hard and Plan A. Any decent marriage is worth saving. And I would be sorry to see your marriage fall apart if you were really trying to save it, even if it is an affairage!

Good luck and keep posting!

Hi Margie,

I feel that you would not be here if you were not sincere and not still in love with your husband.

Margie, I feel that you are an intellegent devoted woman, however, I feel you are being misdirected in terms of what you can do personally. I say that because if this was my situation (in terms of your H), my wife would drag me to a priest, minester, rabbi or a parent, and she would simply have it out with me instead of risking the rest of her life uncertain.

I feel Margie that you can get so involved with the technical here that you are losing sight of your goal. It's nice to know and be able to use the voice activated recorder, but on the other hand that effort takes away from actual down to earth nitty griity intimate converstation and confrontation with your husband in this matter.

I would advise you to take a break from posting here and do what you know you need to do. No one here Margie could possibly guide you from day to day on your own intimate relationship no matter How astounding they may seem.

I'll relate to you one other thing. I went to evening school back in the 70s to get my MBA. My wife put up crap from me then because I had to spend umpteen hours studying and that I was selfishly devoted to my degree. We did have some periods of distance. Thanks to her tho, when I was done with my last class she came downtown to Chicago for a pizza dinner celebration and I was just too tired and detached to show her much affection or anything else. She persevered tho, and after half the dinner she just said to me do you want to just go home and mess around! We did and I found I was not tired at all. On other hand Margie, if I had just wanted to go out drinking and not be with her after I had finished my program she would have walked away I am sure.

Just my thoughts. Most people have worked these things out. They depended on Their values and goals. It's fine Margie to get advice here from folks, but they are not living your life for you.

Thanks,

Tom

Margie

Im a newbie too. I can see the frustration just bleeding through the screen. I feel for you because no one deserves going through this.

I think your getting very good advice in keeping up plan A. The purpose of plan A is to show that you are willing to meet his needs. Id continue on as long as possible and do your best to avoid MB. Then if you can take it more and go for a seperation your setting you plan B up as well as you can.

Keep your head up. I live for the glimpses of my DW I see from times to time. Pictures of us in happier days are really tough.
I hope you get something to keep you going.

YEG

oK, Margie,

Let's take this from the top shall we??? I suggested you sit down and question yourself about your life and your life goals. I expect you to do this NOW!!! I expect you to know your boundaries and what you will tolerate and won't tolerate and what you will do if your boundaries are crossed, start right NOW!

I expect you to protect your children. I expect you to see when their father KNOWS when he is neglecting them and tell him. I expect you to learn and grow.

Now do you see anywhere where I have mentioned your H's affair? Do you see anywhere where I have actually mentioned your marriage? No you don't because I have not.

In my humble opinion there is not a chance in the world you can save this marriage or make it a good marriage UNTIL YOU get your goals, your priorities, and your boundaries figured out. You cannot actuate a plan if you have no goal. I want to be married is not really a goal it is a wish. It is like my diet plan: "I want to lose 20 lbs." That is not a plan, it is a wish. A plan has milestones, it has evaluation points, it has alternative actions, it has GOALS.

Quit worrying about your H and start figuring out who you are, what you stand for, what are your goals, and how are you going to achieve them.

Your focus on every little detail of his actions is you avoiding looking at the important things. What are those things? They are your goals, your plans, YOUR boundaries.

Focus on those and tell your H he is ignoring the kids and they will come to resent him for it.

God Bless,

JL

Margie? How are you doing these days?

I agree with this Margie, you have to figure out WHAT YOU want and WHAT are YOUR boundaries.
Pepper had to keep beating me with 2x4's to accept this and then make a plan, and then stick to that plan.
Because I kept wishing it would just all go away....
But it doesn't just go away, it is staring right at you and you now have to decide.
When I made the choices I made, I wanted to know that when everyone looked back, including myself; that my behavior and choices reflected who I am and what I stand for.
It has taken many more 2x4's from people on this forum to accept what is happening in my life, deal with it in a manner that helps me recover, and to stop wishing....at least in reality.

So hugs to you, I hope you are doing well today.

I talked to H. Told him I was uncomfortable with him going to singles sites and flirting with the TM girl. I told him it was crossing a boundary and it was a deal breaker if he was not willing to stop.

He has stopped and started connecting with me a tiny bit more. It helps me Plan A so much better just getting any amount of "give" from him.

Thank you all.

Hi Margie,

First, it is good to see you at least post here again.

It sounds like you have thought about your situation and have your goal in sight.

You hit the nails in your first paragraph! Boundaries, and not making a spouse feel uncomfortable. A loving spouse does not make his/her spouse uncomfortable. The loving spouse who is being made to feel uncomfortable informs the other spouse that he/she is uncomfortable with what the other spouse is doing.

Whatever you are doing, keep going kid!

Tom

My husband wanted to read my thread and he pointed out many details that I missed. I want to set everything straight and get the whole truth out.

One thing that really bothers him is that I tried to like the things, music, etc that he liked while we were dating. There were things like being involved in the goth/alternative community that little by little I just couldn't handle. By that point we were married so I cheated him out of doing things that he liked (not just the goth/alternative community, that was just one thing) like music (heavy metal) etc. Hanging out and going out with people, I tried to like to like and keep doing but I just didn't. So in that aspect I really tricked him into thinking I liked or was ok with these things while we were dating then slowly not liking or not being ok with them early in our marriage.

The first guy I had an affair with had a little more history than I let on. We were in the Army together and we were stationed in Korea. He was attracted to me the whole time but we were always just friends. One night while we were in Korea we got messed up drunk and he tried to have oral sex with me while I was sleeping. I came to and stopped him. Fast forward to the spring of 08, I never told my husband about that situation. The guy ended up moving in with us for a few months. My H started becoming uncomfortable with the OM, the OM was flirting a lot with me but I dismissed it. A lot of times we stayed up drinking and my H asked me to come to bed and I chose to stay up drinking. The affair happened a few days before he moved out. We were up late drinking, my H decided to go to bed and asked me to go to bed with him. I decided to stay up drinking more. I don't remember the conversation I was having with OM at all. We went outside and all that I can assume is that we went outside with the intent of having sex. I don't know where we went or ended up. I remember being or laying on rocks somewhere. The next thing I do remember was walking down the hallway in my house, brushing my teeth and going to bed.

A few months later I was talking on instant messenger with an ex boyfriend. We started reminiscing about old times and kind of what could have been. When my H found that conversation and confronted me about it is when I told him about the affair with the previous guy to change the subject.

At some point, I don't know I think it was the summer of 09 we met a couple on craigslist. We hung out once or twice. I was talking to the guy on instant messenger when we started flirting, him talking about being naked in the bath etc. My H found that conversation.

When I started going to school in the fall of 09 I had a crush on one of my professors and wrote him a few emails telling him that I liked him. I was also on single's sites and talked to a few guys there.

I'm extremely passive aggressive, I start and instigate fights. I push my H buttons. I honestly don't realize it at the time but when I think back on the fight we'd had I can tell that I was doing those things on purpose. Borderline personality disorder was mentioned once by one of my counselors but he's since left the VA center I went to and I've started talking to someone else. I looked it up and I have a lot of the traits of borderline personality disorder. I have hurt my H physically and mentally. I cannot stop lying. I've lied about who I've went out with (girl friends who had the BBQ where I had the ONS who just wasn't a good person, encouraged me to cheat, she was cheating on her H. Another girl who dislikes my H, talks bad about him and tells me to leave him.) I lied to these "friends" about my H, making him seem like a horrible person and exaggerating fights we'd had and things that were said. I've lied about money, what I've bought and spent it on, maxed out credit cards, used up our savings on just crap. Lie about the keylogger and the emails I got from the keylogger. Filed for divorce behind his back, lied about a loan I got to pay for the lawyer retainer. Lied about just about everything all the time.

The second guy I had a ONS with, I had my kids with me. They were all sleeping in the living room with a bunch of other kids. Two of the other women there at the BBQ were in other rooms having sex with guys they had also just met that night. That's how I just ended up having sex with the guy I met that night.

To be clear, I don't deserve "props" or whatever for trying to save my marriage. I've put my husband through hell and I continue to do so. I do want my marriage and I want to do the right thing and I want it to be a good marriage. I have so much work to do on myself that I feel horrible for my H for being stuck with me. He's wanting a divorce now. I don't know where we're at.

Margie - I'm glad you're still here. Thank you for coming clean with all the details... You truly are in a 'big old mess' but the first step to fixing it is admitting to the totality of what you did.

You need to accept that he has a right to divorce after what you have put him through. The right thing here may be loving him enough to realize that he may not recover from what you've done to him, and letting him go. I know it's hard and my heart aches for you.

People have advised you to contemplate and identify what you want out of your marriage and what marriage means to you. If you've written all that out, share it with him and lay out your plan for rebuilding your marriage. Accept, however, that he may not want you or the marriage. He may leave. That is a consequence of your actions you will have to accept.

If he stays, or goes you have some deep personal recovery that needs to happen before you ever even contemplate another relationship.

If he's read your thread, is he willing to consult with the Harley's? That is really the best thing for both of you right now, and probably the only thing that will help - more than just posting here.

Hey hi Margie,

I was looking for someone else's thread and saw you are back.

I agree with Vibrissa, do you think your H would participate here?

I feel it took courage and honesty at this point to post the rest of your story. That is a beginning, and you need to formulate a plan for change based on the your frailties. Everyone has frailties Margie, that impact others.

I am glad to see you back, but on your own, and based on your heart of hearts, you need to develop Your plan for change despite the feelings of your husband. I hope you guys are able to afford and are willing to counsel with S. or J. Harley.

No judgement here Margie, but you have a tough row to hoe.

My prayers,

Tom

I didn't think my H would want to come here, plus I was afraid of him getting mad at my snooping on his computer and phone, which he did. Since he knows about all of it now, there's no harm in it. He has since started his own thread.

I brought up the Harleys but since my H hasn't been on this site long I think he wants to read a little more about the MB principles before thinking about that. I would like to and, financially, we've gotten lucky lately and got a lump sum from SS Disability so we'd actually be able to. I will talk to him about it again. Do you guys have any people who post here that have success stories about using the Harleys? I'm sure there are some out there somewhere. My H doesn't have any confidence in MCs right now since we've been to a few and nothing has worked. That's probably more my fault than the MCs' fault.

So I'm here with a new page to my story. He should not have given me as many chances as I've had, I'll be the first to say this. I know this is IT. There are no other chances and I have what many don't, this final attempt to save my M.

Margie - I'm glad you're here. I saw that your H posted as well. I replied in his thread. You both have a lot of work to do, but I think it is something that you CAN do.

It would be wonderful if you could use that money for some coaching. I'll see if I can dig up some success stories for y'all.

ETA: If you go to the forum list, there is a Forum called Notable Posts, if you go to 'Notable Posts and Threads' and scroll through the list, there are links to a section called Success Stories. There are also several threads with success stories. Here is one that I found doing a quick search.

Margie:

I am an MB Success story. Wayward for 4.5 years, but really, for years before that in my actions and the ways I treated Flamingo.

We went to the MB Weekend. It saved our marriage, and in many ways, my life. It has been a long road to travel, this road of recovery. Many people are not really capable of it.

Thats why I keep recommending that you fix yourself. That you truly examine what your life has been like, and to truly measure it next to what your life could be like, and start making those changes.

LG

Hey Margie,

Glad to see you back on here! I read your husband's thread as well....(also, I didn't want to post it on his thread, but Margie - people have been harsh with you too, did it run YOU off? )

Just wanted to say, we had our first counselling session with the Harleys. Now, I can't say we're a success story yet, but WH is listening. And that's a start. I have never felt so good about a MC as I did with Steve. Even if you guys can try a just a couple sessions with him, it's worth it!!

The fact that you are both here posting shows you both have some inclination to work on the marriage, and really do what it takes to have a happy one.

You can do this, with MB. Truly examine what you have both been so far, and work out a plan for where you want to go.

edit

Margie, don't read your husband's thread. I know that's easier said than done, but it will do you good. Let the people on here deal give him advice, and don't worry about what he's saying or doing on his thread.

As for the MB sessions - you don't have to NEVER pay back the other bills, but right now, what do you NEED more? Even if you book just two sessions with the Harleys, it might give you both some guidance in getting your marriage back on track.

edit

Margie, print those out and ask him how any of those could be taken innocently. And I promise you - I have NEVER said I love you to any of my male friends, no matter how close. Never. Nor have I sent sexy pics of myself to men other than my husband.

And as for Plan A - he sees what he wants to see. Just do your best.

You're so nice, you always make me cry.

Hi Margie,

Got home a little early today and first thing I did is check my garden. Since I haven't had one in like ten years I'm excited and a little anxious. It's been unusually warm here now for May so guess I will need to water again tonight. This is a container garden on the patio. The tomatoe plants seem to be growing in the right direction - vertically - but darn if I can get the marigolds to bloom at all..

Anyway, before you think I am just crazy or on the wrong site I was glad to see that your H is now a member here and is posting. I haven't read much of his thread, but I agree with NP fully that it's much better at this stage to refrain from posting on each other's threads. Also, in terms of your available funds, would he agree to using those funds to invest in MB counseling now (1.e., investing in a plan for each of you to save your marriage) and to pay him back over time later on?

I can't remember Margie, but have you two competed the EN Questionnairs? If you haven't and now that he is here and has been exposed to them why don't you raise that with him. Focusing on meeting each of the top two or three EN's should eliminate at least to some degree the LB's.

Another thing Margie is that you two seem to spend quite abit of time absent each other. I.e., he has friends who you may not like that much. I mentioned this to another member here, are there clubs, orgasnizations, etc. that you two could join that would meet both of your interests and where you could both meet friends both of you could like and be comfortable with. My wife was very interested in crafts years ago (she has no interest or patience for them now), and we joined a park district sponsored craft club. We enjoyed being together and we spent almost a whole year learning about docoupage (sp) and also met some kewl people who were interested in the same things. Personally I did not enjoy the knitting classes tho...*s*...okay am being really silly but i'ts been that kind of a crazy day tho. Also, we joined a neighborhood action group where we lived and met some great neighbors there. What I am trying to say is that these RC time seemed to lesses whatever marital differenced we may have had at the time.

At the same time Margie, using whatever means and resources you have available continue to work on your own weaknesses (yes we all have them) and continue with your self-change.

Just keep going.

Tom

Hi again Margie,

I have read more of your H's thread after I last posted you.

I need to tell you that I am going to back away for my own reason. The dynamic now between you and your H is so intense on here now, that I do not feel qualified in any way to comment. This is no reflection at all on you Margie, and it has nothing to do with my hopes that you and H will be able to recover your marriage. It is just that you need to have pro's now guiding you like the Harley's.

Margie I truely wish you the best and you will be in my prayers along with a number of people here..

Tom

edit

Perhaps this is why it's best not to both be posting on the forums until you are in a healthier place. Again, DO NOT look at his thread! And stop trying to push the blame around for what's happened to your marriage. It's not about matching up stories, it's about fixing what's happened. And you both know the truth, more than anyone on here will ever know, because yes, posting is very one sided.

Nobody is here to judge you.

Margie try ONE session with the Harleys. Try to get him to agree to that. And take it from there.

If you stop posting because of the back-and-forth between you two on here, you are giving up on your marriage. Is that what you want?

No and I knew I wasn't going to stop posting because it would be just that, giving up.


Yes my marriage problems are my fault. I know this more than ever. No matter how angry he is in the things he says to and about me, this situation is my fault and I brought it on myself. I know I know I know. I really do. No matter how much I b!tch about it.

This may be unpopular but you two should part ways.

You at a party with many wive's effing OM's makes me ill. I pray for your children.

Your H? It seems he just wants an excuse to do whatever.

There are three children getting totally screwed here!

Edit to add...I wish I could call child services!

Again, MaiMai...not very helpful to attack people who come here for help.

Margie, just keep trying. Maybe with both of you on here you can get the help you need.

Ok, let me try and do something good and productive.

How do I go about being honest. This is a huge problem for me and a huge LB to H. I really want to be honest. I have the tendency to try and protect him and his feelings. I have the tendency to hope he doesn't find out the truth-big or small. I lie about everything including things that you would think don't need to be lied about. I am a liar. Period.

How do I stop.

You start with, ironically enough, commitment.

Promise yourself you will never lie. Ever. Commit to that.

Your insecurities mean other people and their opinion of you dictate who you are. You need to realize that you and you alone determine who you are. Who is there at the end of the day? Only you. Who is responsible for you - your actions, your decisions, how your life plays out? Only you. All of these people you so cheaply sell your integrity and morality to - gone. It's. Just. You.

What kind of person do you want to be?

Hi MaiMai.

I don't know you at all but wanted to respond to you after looking at Margie's latest story update and Igrip's.

I am honestly in agreement with you in that both of them are so immmature that they need pro help as I posted last evening, and not simply posting here. It is like a drama, and sometimes I wonder if he/she are trolls or at the very least that they are totaly dysfunctional. The absence of any of the other vets makes me feel this is the case.

But, if her story is true, I would not want to be her or his child, and yes I do believe that there may be child abuse or neglect going on in this unhealthy dysfunctional family.

Margie: Get professional help soon, for both of you and the sake of your kids.

Thanks MaiMai for highlighting this.

Tom

MaiMai,

Just happened to think of this regarding my last post. I do not want you or anyone else to think or misinterpret that I think that Igrip is immmature. I just posted wrongly. I mentioned his name in my last post regardig Margie Only because I also read his most recent post before I read this one. The two people who are totally immature are Margie and Andrew, and I am having a hard time even believing that a married couple could be this so screwed up totally.

Thanks,

Tom

Tom, The vets won't post here because this is an affairage- it is probably a lost cause as they have abysmall success rates, precisely because they are founded on dysfunction... I'm holding out hope if only for the sake of their children. Hope that they will see the depth and level of their dysfunction and reform: becoming the parents their children deserve.

I truely believe that this forum won't be enough to help them. They need coaching. I've been formulating my advice to them- I'm going to sleep on my thoughts and see what I think of them tomorrow before I post it.

I'm glad you and Andy are still around Margie. It gives me hope for you.

I really hope you turn this around. When I read of affairages like this I think of my sisters- they didn't deserve to have adulturers as parents, but that's what they got. When I see people like you two I want to help because ALL children deserve to be raised by parents in a loving, healthy environment. I hope you two can create that.

Vibrissa,

Some veterans will post, but if the poster is not honest with themselves or us, there is little reason to offer suggestions on bad data. Margie, can do many things to make her life better, but it starts with an HONEST evaluation of what is actually going on and what needs to be changed on her side of things.

The same goes for her H.

JL

Honesty is not an attack.

**edit***

First you stop lying to yourself.
You are NOT 'protecting' your H's feelings. That's a load of crapola. You ARE being selfish.
That's it. You are SELFISH, THAT is why you lie.
That is why you cheated on two husbands and that is why I pray for your children.

I posted some things about my H that were more mean spirited and venting than productive and I'm sorry. I have hurt him again and I think he's given up on me for the last time. I'm not giving up and I'm going to try to keep learning about myself and bringing out the good and controlling the bad.

That's all I have to say right now.

I agree JL, completely. I don't think either of them are being very honest. Also, I don't want anyone to think I'm saying anything bad about those who chose not to post to them. I absolutely agree with their reasons for doing so. Everyone should post how they want. I was simply saying that due to the nature of this relationship, some people won't offer advice.

After thinking about this last night I have come to the realization that I don't think any advice I give would be productive. I know what I want to say and I know what advice I'd give, but I don't know that I can explain myself in a way you and Andrew would understand, your basic fundamental conceptions of marriage are so different from my own. People have told you repeatedly to sit down and think about what marriage is to you, what your thoughts are on commitment. I haven't seen that you've done that.

You both need to look up honesty and integrity and understand how they must be applied, not just to your marriage, but to your lives.

Apart from that, the only advice I feel I can give is to call the coaching center. Money cannot be an excuse if you truly value your marriage. Walk dogs, mow lawns, wash cars, collect cans, donate plasma do whatever you have to do to get the money for it. If it matters to you you will work to get it.

Good for you, Margie. I wondered when I saw his post saying he quit....

All you can do is better yourself. Before you do ANYTHING hurtful from now on, please take a moment to stop, think, and post it here first. That's the best way to Plan A and not LB.

Is he still at home? Did he leave?

Please don't pay attention to the overly negative posts to you two . Remember what you are here for, and while you will get 2x4's when you deserve them, keep the goal in mind.

Sorry Margie, short t/j here: MaiMai, when did child abuse EVER come into this????

That's child abuse in my book and, I would hope, most peoples. **edit**

Margie - I haven't posted to you before, but feel that a few "technical instructions" are in order for you and your husband, should he decide to return to posting and asking for help here.

The technical instructions are this:

If you find yourself on the receiving end of "unhelpful" feedback that discourages you from taking the necessary steps to changing your character and seeking an honorable life of integrity from here on out, please use these instructions which allow you to filter that "advice".

Click on the user name of the person delivering unhelpful advice; you will see a drop down menu - select "view profile"

On the bottom of that screen you will see a menu with four choices:

Add to UBB Buddies

Ignore this user

Add to Watched Users

Show User's Posts.

I strongly encourage you to click on "Ignore this user". I encourage your husband to do the same. Sometimes people here can become a hindrance to recovery; you have to be selective about what you put into your head right now. You need to focus on changing your character and your nature to openness and honesty. Focus your mind and heart on feedback that helps you do that.

Please tone it down and keep posts respectful and helpful to the OP.

I've been away for a wile, someone point me to the husbands thread.
Where these woman also married?
Where the men?
Where these your "Friends"?

Margie, any updates? Is your husband still around? I've been thinking about you!