Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our guidance forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,178
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,178
Sorted, I like following your threads . . . a fellow seeker on the same general path smile

Originally Posted by kaycstamper
I've heard so many mention about accepting themselves as God sees them...so why is it that churches carry so much stigma surrounding divorce? Even when it was revealed that my (now ex) husband was a con man that stole from me, cheated on me repeatedly, and had no intentions of ever living with me or buckling down and being a real husband to me, my pastor still would not say "yeah, you need to get a divorce". People treat you like a leper if you're divorced (at least in my conservative Baptist church). Why is that? It leaves you feeling raped once by your husband and twice by society...oh and three times by the law because they said what he did wasn't a crime. ??!!

I get so frustrated to hear things like this. I feel very blessed to have grown up in the Catholic faith I have, where we don't have divorce, we have annulment, which basically means that although there was a wedding and vows were said, due to something faulty in one or both of the partners at the time of the vows, the marriage incomplete and therfore not valid. It is a very healing way to look at the whole process, the grief, etc. And the church doesn't just "grant" an annulment either. It's like a court case, where the person seeking the annulment must prove the need for it, and the church appoints a "lawyer" to defend the marriage. So it's not just an easy out, or at least it isn't intended to be.

I also agree that a pastor in no way should be telling his parishioner what they should and shouldn't do, regardless of their position. Heck, BECAUSE of their position. We are all children of God, each with our own personal relationship with God, and we ultimately are responsbile for our decisions. So to rely on the advice of others is in some ways an attempt to pawn off that responsiblity. Likewise, my giving explicit advice like that to someone may mean that they are not making their own decision, and they could blame me for the outcome. Advice, even from a trusted pastor, is probably not the best way to go. Rather, I appreciate a leader who points me to the scripture, and in my case, the wisdom of the church through the writings of the saints, theologians, fathers of the church, etc. so that I can make a decison with an informed conscience. Relying on one person is dangerous, IMO

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,178
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,178
Sorted, I wanted to address you, too, since you have shared more of your story with me on my thread. As you know, I have been going to alanon, and I have found it to be very helpful in working on my self-esteem issues, making peace with my feelings, learning to respond in love rather than just react, etc. It is such a spiritual program; truly, for me anyway, the goal is to be happy knowing that my God is always in the driver's seat of my life, and the 12 steps are teaching me how to do that, and the accept what life gives me, as well as grieve and accept the past.

I really think you ought to try it. I know your wife's been gone a long while, but the effects stay with us even if the drinker is gone. My "qualifying alcoholics" are people with whom I had no relationship, a generation ago, yet their behaviors affected my parents and grandmothers, and therefore affected me. Same with my husband. The disease affects everyone it touches.

You are such a sincere seeker, and I just wanted to say that for me, the steps are the best "roadmap" I've ever come across as I seek to get closer to God. I know that as I give control to him, the guidance in my relationships will come. I know so many who have been given second, third, and more chances at practicing relationships . . . surely there is every reason to believe that you will too!

A few more nuggets for you:

1. I have found that we attract what we are, spiritually, emotionally, and even physically.

2. I have also found that in order to improve myself, I need to surround myself with those who are a bit further on the path, and distance myself from those who do not want to be on the path or want to hold me back. Some relationships are only meant to be for a season. It's one thing to invite them on the journey, and quite another to drag them along against their will. (I think that includes those who have died, too.)

As St. Paul said to the Ephesians as he left them:

"And so I solemnly declare to you this day that I am not responsible for the blood of any of you, for I did not shrink from proclaiming to you the entire plan of God.�

Know that you did not shrink from doing the best you could at the time. Learn what you could have done better, but rather than regret, make amends by not doing it in the future. It is our mistakes that make us who we are, and it is our imperfections that prove that any good thing we do is truly the work of God, not us.

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870
C
Member
OP Offline
Member
C
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870
Kay I can't answer for every church but I think that what most corporate institutions of churches strive for is to have fellowship with others who they can feel safe with.
Unlike Jesus who came to save the lost and reunite them with God through his diety human beings are limited in how far they can extend themselves when someone goes out beyond thier safty zone. They just do not have that faith or connection to it that gives them that strength. The best they can do is point to Christ but they still reserve that place that they are human and do not have the power to change our circumstaces so they manytimes run away from us in the name of survival. Truthfully the spiritual help we need cannot be brought about though them but only by the person of Christ and his example but to often that translates into, "I will pray for you" but they are not prepared to spend time with you while the painful process you undergo works out. They either don't understand, can't understand, or are at a loss to help because they are working out thier own problems as they see more important to thier well-being. In a nutshell they are afraid.
I remeber a church member that my wife was talking to one day and my wife was bringing up how we were struggling with finances. Wife was going to talk aout how we were having problems making the rent and how we were very stressed over a long period of time. The individual replied before my wife could get into detals. "Yes I know, I can't even pick up my dry cleaning this week"

My wifes emotional response was embarressment and did not seek help from this woman because she felt that she wasn't in the place wew were. Wife just felt lost I am sure. It would have been great if she could have opened up to her but we were ussually in the business of helping the less fortunate at our own expense and her pride was hurt while that reaching out was done at great risk to her own self-esteem.
I don't know what the other womens deal was but it seemed par for the course for those who are not able to see past thier nose. My wife and I would never deny this woman her lifestyle or ask anyone for a handout because envy was not healthy and its a neverending pit anyways. We were glad to see others prosper.
I do think that it was an opportunity for the woman to listen to my wife and hear her out and give her advice though and to my wives credit she saw she was not capable of it right away.

That was just an example of how many ppl are just in the God business for themselves and as the comfortability rises they seek to hide thier heads in the sand to others needs. "where your heart is your treasure lies also" sorta thing.

Our pastor in 1975 had counselled my Mom who had taught Sunday school, married and lost her virginity, was a friend to many for 2 years weekly while trying to get my Dad to come in for counsel also..and my Dad had issues.. the whole family knew it..

After 2 years he finnaly said " Well if your Husband still keeps saying he wants a Divorce maybe its time you gave him one"

We had attended Baptist churches and Protestant since I was young but Dad was in it for what God could do for him while his Mom and Dad and brother waited for him to see what He had allready done for him. My Dad cared about what people thought and his position in thier eyes and he suffered for it. He talked quite a few times in the vien of "Doing his time when he was young, sang in the choir," etc. It was a blessing that my Moms pastor had the guts to help her because my Dad lived in a miserable place strongly afraid and paranoid and would not accept help or trust anyone. Hes in a nurseing home suffering from alzimers and a stroke before he was 70, His third wife now owns the house he scammed out from the family and she has allready secured it legally, (more power to her, she a goldigger anyways, her nephew used to tell me stories about her years before my Dad got hooked up with her).

My Mom just turned 83 and still drives, goes out dancing, and is there for anyone who needs like she allways was. She know what God did for us all and has never been ashamed of it. My Dad seemed to allways live in shame.



But as to your question Kay.. The corporate body of churches many times try to keep up appearances because they need to advertise themslves as a winning proposition. New properous members are allready healthy and Jesus din't come to save them anyways he came for the lost. How quickly many forget "there but for the Grace of God Go I". It takes a heart of mercy and the cost of our time to reach out and many are not willing to take a chance of losing what they have. A secure club who keeps the rules they all agree on while other clubs keep thier own set of rules.

I like the Groucho Marx joke.. "I wouldn't want to belong to a club that would have me as a member"

But God hates religion so I am in good hands


Me 56 Former BS
Widowed 5-17-09 --married 25 years.
4 children
DS-35 previous marriage--18-22 DGrandSons 6 and 4
Me former BS
DD-29 with DGDs 5 and 1yr
DSs 26 and 23
Teilhard de Chardin..“We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience.” ...Sounds about right to me.
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 412
D
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 412
I was really encouraged by the above posts. Sometimes it helps to know you're not the only one experiencing these things.


"If you will stop feeding your feelings, then they will stop controlling you" -Joyce Meyer
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 412
D
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 412
ok, well there were some posts on the next page I hadn't seen when I wrote the above �I�m encouraged�

Originally Posted by kaycstamper
People treat you like a leper if you're divorced (at least in my conservative Baptist church). Why is that? It leaves you feeling raped once by your husband and twice by society...oh and three times by the law because they said what he did wasn't a crime. ??!!

Kay, I feel your pain. Churches go through so much pretense of being forgiving and "there for you." I love the Lord and hope I can find a church in my new location that really does accept people as they are and gently encourage them to be everything that God has called us to be. I personally believe God has called us to be holy and touch not the unclean thing. But Jesus also says let those w/o sin cast the first stone. At one point in our lives, ALL fell short. And leaving an abusive relationship (even if the LAW says its LEGAL, ugh) doesn�t exactly count in my book as �falling short� the same way cheating on your wife or sex outside of marriage that many pastors I know of have done� so why the extra harsh stigma? I know ALL churches aren�t like that, but so far many of the ones I�ve tried in my new southern location are.

Ok, let me get off my rant�

Christian books/radio/advice always says to �get connected/get into a strong support system in your church� in order to get through these tough times, but it�s hard to get connected when people are so quick to judge. Sometimes I wonder if it�s really their own bitterness at feeling �stuck� in their poor marriages.

Most of what I have found in the few churches I have tried in my new location is that as soon as I tell people I'm divorced their whole demeanor changes. As if I'm not still a child of God. In my current church, I loved how accepting my pastor was of me and my situation (though it was sometimes hard b/c he also accepted my ex).

LOL, sounds to me like most people in church really need to just GET SAVED!

Last edited by DaisyTheCat2; 05/19/10 03:43 PM. Reason: forgot to finish a sentence, LOL!

"If you will stop feeding your feelings, then they will stop controlling you" -Joyce Meyer
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870
C
Member
OP Offline
Member
C
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870
Thanks TTT, I find your posts helpful also.

I was going to Alanon for a few weeks after a few months past my wives passing. Then I lost my ride and felt I would return when it could be re-established but have not as of yet.

My first experience with Alnon was back before our first seperation 20+ years ago. I was told by a few ppl when i asked them what i should do about my wives drinking then that she was in love with the drink, I allready knew that.. I went to AA to see what I could understand about this lies she believed in herself that was controlling her. How could this intelligent, bible colledge educated, gutsy and merciful woman with such high moral standards let herself fall into such a jeykll and hyde exsistance? What fear had taken her over? How could i help her to come back to earth and not subject me and our duaghter to her emotional hell she lived in?

It had allready damaged us so much and i was sure i had bitten off more than I could chew and needed help to understand.

Being someone who had experianced as a teenager the Bullcrap that using drugs to cope was and knowing that the lie is that you are not able to do what you need to do to be loved, Originally I thought I could help her understand it was all in her mind. We had disscussed this many times and she agreed and with her extensive knowledge of scripture and past experiance of getting away from the toxic and abusive family situations she had endured as a child I believed that she could work this out if put in the right atmosphere. As I realized she did not have the inner security to really decide to be with me or not, and that she was still afraid and trying to survive, it was very painful for me because I knew she was just using me as she floundered.

I, as many others who knew her, knew her potential and saw her heart. She was easy to love but after I saw what the relationship was doing to me because of her problems I had to leave to save myself, not an easy thing for me to do because although I could blame her I was still responsible and inside did not want to abandon her and my daughter. But as long as alcohol was more important to her than our health and our familys future I had to swallow the pill that she was better off without me and really didn't love me, she loved some other guy she wanted me to be.


So as far as AA goes its interesting that the principles and steps used are spot on what God asks us to do.

The original founders recognized the power and nessesity of these and to me, and my wife also, applied these tools to themselves and helped others to see the wisdom and comfort also.

From what I gathered at the time the founders had an aversion to religious organization or God as it was taught so they took what was valueable to them and thank God they did for it has been a gateway to emotional and spiritual growth. My wife though took the shortcut and wanted to bypass the process of understanding herself and yes, probably "used the grace of God as a lisence to Sin". Know this though I did not have a relationship/ spiritual understanding like she did and was in many ways gaslighted, or allowed myself to be anyways, by her scriptual knowledge untill I saw the light.

I finnally had to rely on my first impression, that anyone who was set free by Christ did not abuse themselves and did not truly go though the cross or come to the end of themselves, or was humble enough to be taught, had not been broken to the point of having nobody else to trust.

I truly turned her over to God and was done. I did hope for her to get better but not so we could be together, but to assuage the guilt I felt for thinking I was special and was able to love her more than the God she really needed and was hiding from. She was a special creature and even though I did not want to admit it at first she needed someone with more resources and financial security to be with, someone with unshakable confidance and someone who knew the scriptures who could call her out when she would blame them for her weakneses. That was not me, I was struggling to get a carreer and provide for now two children and she was pregnant for my third.

The alcohol use was destroying any chance for her to start her spiritual recovery and I believe she drank because she felt trapped with me or just couldn't cope with all the emotions she was experiancing from past life experiaences, (no not "past life" like she was some reencarnation lol)and the rollercoaster ride she was on at the time.

Besides I would not play the role of her jailor so she could run out and drink while the world felt sorry for her anymore.

Fast forward 20 years...


My primary concern and purpose by going back to Alanon was to help me understand the guilt I felt after she died and how to deal with it. I also had to find out how to help my children to not be consumed by emotional attachment and the lack of remorse my wife felt during the last ten years of her life. She was to far gone to have the presense of mind to admit to the children she had done anything wrong when she took up herion and crack and left the marriage in 2003. She never even said to me she was sorry because in her mind she was guiltless, it was everybody elses fault or failure that forced her to self-medicate herself.

I had to realize that the door of opportunity for her to suck it up and get the personal counselling she denied she needed had long gone and she chose the comfort of emotional denial and justification that comes with the "poppys", (like dorothy who feel asleep in the field who almost missed her life?).

So AA was to me a place to dump the guilt I felt about not staying away when i left years ago and not getting help for my own weakness of self-esteem problems and not stepping up with the boudaries I should have at the right time.

I would have been one of those guys who would not expose an affair had i logged in here 20 years ago as my life was unhealthy enough in my own co-dependancy and believed we were special for all the wrong reasons. I was borderline in the same denial and ignored what God has been trying to tell me my whole life. Its not all my fault and i can't fix it.


I see Alanon as part of the road to recovery for any human being because the most important information and tools are given to us there. We are all addicts in some way and use coping mechanisms to survive they are not as destructive as drugs but the chemistry of the mind is effected in some way.

I never see myself as better than a drug addict just blessed to not have fallen into the place they have.

If my late wife had not had the emotional issues and the drug abuse she would have not married me. If she had gotten the proper treatment as a child or come to grips with what she needed to do as a young adult she would have been a moving force in this world. (not that she wasn't to many).

Ok one more thing...

Because she was at one time a "shining example of redemption" and one of the churches success storys along with one of our Pastors favorites nobody would approach her about anything. She also could become very combative and would turn any critisism on church policy into a personal attack on her Pastor, whom was an awesome insightful gifted speaker with a vision to bring Christ to the world.

As her Pastor started to get ill about the same time my wife fell into drugs again the politics of the church caused them to pretty much let her fall to the wayside.


I just would have liked to have more practical help instaed of convienient denial with my marriage. All the prioritys got mixed up. It was my own fault for not standing up for myself and what turns out was right. Charity begins at home.


Me 56 Former BS
Widowed 5-17-09 --married 25 years.
4 children
DS-35 previous marriage--18-22 DGrandSons 6 and 4
Me former BS
DD-29 with DGDs 5 and 1yr
DSs 26 and 23
Teilhard de Chardin..“We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience.” ...Sounds about right to me.
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870
C
Member
OP Offline
Member
C
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870
Originally Posted by Fred_in_VA
......, it reminded me that there are caring, friendly people who would like nothing better than to spend some time talking with you.

Let them.

Yeah Fred its so true that age is a state of mind too.


Me 56 Former BS
Widowed 5-17-09 --married 25 years.
4 children
DS-35 previous marriage--18-22 DGrandSons 6 and 4
Me former BS
DD-29 with DGDs 5 and 1yr
DSs 26 and 23
Teilhard de Chardin..“We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience.” ...Sounds about right to me.
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,178
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,178
Sorted, the thing about alcoholics is that even if you remove the alcohol, you're left with the "ic".

The problem is not just the drinking. As you said, "We are all addicts in some way and use coping mechanisms to survive they are not as destructive as drugs but the chemistry of the mind is effected in some way."

I believe, and have learned in alanon as well as from personal experience, that the spiritual disease that leads to drinking and drugging is potentially just as deadly for those who are using any "coping mechanism" besides chemicals. I've never smoked, and my drinking is sporadic at best and definitely not addictive in nature. But I have "acted out" in ways that are potentially deadly, and I know my semi-suicidal moments could easily progress to truly suicidal with just the flip of a switch if I did not have what I am finding in Alanon. And I have always been an extremely spiritual person, am very involved in my church, love to study and discuss theology, etc. Religious faith is very important, but for me and many other Alanon friends, it was not "enough."

I think that is why the founders of AA stuck to "spiritual" principles rather than "religious". With religion, there are black and white rules, made up by human beings. As Bill Wilson, the founder of AA said, he came up with 12 steps so as to prevent any loopholes for an alcoholic to get through. Add to that the Traditions, which are intended to guide how groups work, but can be applied to relationships with anyone, and then the Concepts of Service, which are intended to guide alanon service work, but which have wisdom to guide us in our individual service to anyone, and you have 36 principles to guide your life an answer just about any question you could have, without using rationalization or justification.

I think the key is that any of these 12 step programs are not so we can change someone else. It's a way for me personally to walk more closely with my higher power, who personally loves me. And it's a way for me to find personal happiness and contentment that does not depend on anyone else, spouse, parent or child. My happiness comes from walking with my higher power though both the good and the bad, and from accepting that I am not responsible for the weight of the world. Just me and the things I CAN control. Which is not very much. What a tremendous relief!

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870
C
Member
OP Offline
Member
C
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870
Originally Posted by DaisyTheCat2
....

LOL, sounds to me like most people in church really need to just GET SAVED!

Yeah ,like every Day and second I think.. Every day when I think with God I get saved from myself and my own vain imaginations. When God turns up the heat its painful but in the end I will come out better.

I love the scripture. "The trials of our faith are more prescious than Gold"


Me 56 Former BS
Widowed 5-17-09 --married 25 years.
4 children
DS-35 previous marriage--18-22 DGrandSons 6 and 4
Me former BS
DD-29 with DGDs 5 and 1yr
DSs 26 and 23
Teilhard de Chardin..“We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience.” ...Sounds about right to me.
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,178
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,178
Originally Posted by SortedSomeOut
I just would have liked to have more practical help instaed of convienient denial with my marriage. All the prioritys got mixed up. It was my own fault for not standing up for myself and what turns out was right. Charity begins at home.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "practical help." The best help I have seen is detachment. Which is extremely hard. It means giving other people the dignity of their own sometimes destructive choices, while doing my best to protect myself, all in a way that is out of love rather than resentment. Simple, but hard. You can't fix someone else, no matter how small or large their problem, you know that. The attempt at fixing will only make us sicker.

The best practical advice I could give anyone if I were to give advice is to work on myslef. Make my relationship with God more importnt than anything else in life, because everything else is passing, even marriage.

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870
C
Member
OP Offline
Member
C
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870
By practical help from our church I meant someone not afraid to dig in and find out what was going on with my marriage and why we were struggling. When they did find out they were to afraid to confront.

When my wifes pastor was youngr and had a smaller less business oriented church he lit up people who acted like asses, including my wife a few times.

His followers were so busy trying to ride ther coatails of his reputation they were afraid to even tell him things at one point and then when he got sick there ws no way to reach him because it effected him mentally. So they had to protect him of course.

It was his followers who worried about how things appeared that washed thier hands of my wife when she was sick.

Its lonely at the top. But I saw it coming and tryed to warn my wife. Yes it sucked she didn't respect or listen to me but I could deal with that. I dealt with the problems with the "detachment" that you speak of.

As a woman who didn't judge people when they really screwed up and helped messed up ppl gain a hold on thier life and als counselledmany of the women in the body,....to see them al run and hide when my wife fell apart... it was disgusting.

If one of them would have chewed her out and helped me get the strength to get her butt into treatment I would have called that "Practical" help. They just didn't want to make waves and found it convieniet to dismiss my wacky wife although the church benifeted from her when she taught and counselled.

Maybe they were just jealous that she was close to Pastor. Heck, There was more than one time she understood what he was talking about before others did and Pastor asked her to explain at busness meetings in her own words.




Me 56 Former BS
Widowed 5-17-09 --married 25 years.
4 children
DS-35 previous marriage--18-22 DGrandSons 6 and 4
Me former BS
DD-29 with DGDs 5 and 1yr
DSs 26 and 23
Teilhard de Chardin..“We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience.” ...Sounds about right to me.
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,178
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,178
Originally Posted by SortedSomeOut
By practical help from our church I meant someone not afraid to dig in and find out what was going on with my marriage and why we were struggling. When they did find out they were to afraid to confront.

You are probably not going to like what I�m about to say. Just a heads up.

It was not the church�s responsibility to �dig in� or �find out� what was going on in your marriage, nor was it your pastor�s. That is none of their business. Unsolicited advice is still abusive, even when it comes from a well-intentioned church or pastor.

Now, if you had gone directly to your pastor seeking help, that would be another story. But to offer help without you explicitly asking for it is, in my opinion, not healthy.

My pastor does not ask me what is going on in my life. He is available for confessions whenever I need him, and when I go to him, he does not give me practical advice. He directs me to pray, sometimes directs me to a passage in scripture. He trusts that I can find my own solution, and is willing to be present as I struggle to do so. He gives me the dignity to struggle.

Nor is it their job to confront, unless your wife specifically did something that impacted them personally. I do not believe I am responsible for someone else�s salvation; only for preaching the Gospel. When necessary, using words. Their salvation is their choice, and for me, there is fine line between preaching and judging. I believe many �believers� cross that line on a daily basis.

I one time called an alanon friend seeking advice, feedback, etc. I kept going on and on about my situation, and she said nothing. Finally, out of the kindness of her heart, because I was a newbie, she asked, �Would you like some feedback?� Only after I had said YES, and thinking, �Geez, do I have to spell it out?� did she light into me and give me a good beating with a 2x4 which I richly deserved. But only because I had asked for it. Anything else would have been unhealthy unsolicited advice.

I�m not trying to say that the folks at your old church were saints. It is too bad that they did not appear to be supportive when your wife�s life began falling apart. On the other hand, perhaps they were doing what was best, letting your wife meet the consequences of her actions rather than trying to control the situation and prevent the crisis. I have found that groups either swing to one extreme or the other � either they are totally enabling, or they are totally withdrawn. There are negative consequences either way.

Quote
If one of them would have chewed her out and helped me get the strength to get her butt into treatment I would have called that "Practical" help. They just didn't want to make waves and found it convieniet to dismiss my wacky wife although the church benifeted from her when she taught and counselled.

Sounds to me like you have a lot of resentment here, which begs the question, what was your expectation of these people? Was it a reasonable expectation? Was it a HEALTHY expectation?

You may be exactly right. They may very well have been a bunch of spineless wimps who were afraid to make waves. Why does it matter what anyone else did or didn�t do? You couldn�t control that then, and can�t now. But your resentment, even if it is just residual, could be hurting you now.

Taking care of you (and your part of the marriage) was your responsibility, not theirs. You did it as well as you could at the time. What I have found is that rather than beat myself up over my �failures� and �shortcomings� or try to place blame on others (even those who ultimately may deserve some blame), I focus on what I have learned, and I focus on my gratitude for the situation which taught me those lessons. Therefore, I can live with no regrets, accepting that I�m human. Call it the grace of God giving me license to sin. The fact is, the grace of God is real. And I will continue to sin. And it�s nobody�s business but mine and God�s. Nothing can separate me from the love of God. Nothing.

Nothing can separate your wife from the love of God either. Not even her choices. God�s love is way more powerful than that.

And please know that I would never just say this stuff to you. It�s only because you have posted here asking for thoughts. Asking for help. You too have the choice to accept it or reject it. I do very much try to stay away from giving unsolicited advice myself.

My point is (after a long-winded post) that �practical help� is often an expectation we have, but one which is a misplaced or unhealthy expectation which may actually contribute to a problem, create a new one, or have unintended consequences. But this too is a chance for learning.

Just to add one quick thing:

When I was getting married, there were a lot of people that had doubts and concerns. My pastor at the time was one of them; he knew that I had unrealistic expectations, but just smiled and nodded when I talked about them. My parents also had concerns, and did share a little bit, but not nearly what was truly in their hearts. For many years I have been annoyed and resentful that these people who knew me did not confront me. But, I never asked their opinion. I never asked them, "Do you think I'm making the right decision.?" I see now that they gave me the dignity to make my own choice, even if it was not the wisest choice, and they have the love and detachemnt to allow me to struggle, to feel pain, to hit bottom, to yell and scream and totally lose it and cry. And let me live with the consequences of my actions. TheToday, they sit by and watch me struggle as I try to find a solution. And I love them for that. Because I can truly own my part.

And THAT is where I get my self-esteem. From knowing that I have choices, that I can make them with dignity and be wrong, and learn, and be loved anyway.

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 412
D
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 412
Originally Posted by thinkinitthru66
Quote
If one of them would have chewed her out and helped me get the strength to get her butt into treatment I would have called that "Practical" help. They just didn't want to make waves and found it convenient to dismiss my wacky wife although the church benefited from her when she taught and counseled.

Sounds to me like you have a lot of resentment here, which begs the question, what was your expectation of these people? Was it a reasonable expectation? Was it a HEALTHY expectation?
I can totally understand this! It took a LONG time for me to stop being resentful of my ex�s coworkers who stood by and did nothing when he came back from Iraq messed up in his mind. The poor behaviors he exhibited that eventually broke up our marriage were traits he had prior to deployment, so I won�t say military service CAUSED it. But he came back depressed and sunk lower and lower. This is one reason it took me so long to leave, because I thought �well, if he had lost his legs, I wouldn�t leave him and this is an injury just the same� and I would still be with him if not for worry about the welfare of me and my son*. BUT it made me so mad that he wouldn�t listen to me about going to counseling, and none of the guys at work would encourage him to go EVEN though they have all these programs for military who are having trouble adjusting. He went in 2004, so they didn�t have those programs then, and not long after he returned he was put out of the military for poor performance. I was so mad at the military buddies he still hung out with for not encouraging him to get help. And mad at his church buddies for saying Christians don�t need counseling because they have the Holy Ghost. He really needed it.

Basically, I was angry at my life, and looking to blame everyone when really there were only two people to blame: Him for his choices, and me for mine.

Eventually I had to realize that his behavior was HIS choice. HE chose to not get help. Even when we were broke. Even when things came crashing down. It was HIS choice. His choice hurt me, because we suffered financially and health wise and also emotionally (it showed how little regard he had for me and our family- and that hurts), but bottom line they were HIS choices. I just figured if one of �the guys� would have tried to intervene, then he would have gotten help, and then I wouldn�t be a single mom with a hurt child. But we DON�T know if their intervention would have mattered�. Because OURS didn�t. Someone could very well have said something to him � just like someone could have said something to your wife that you don�t know about � and she could have chosen NOT to listen. He probably would NOT have listened. I got confirmation of this not long ago when the person my ex most respects in the world told him to go to counseling, and he still resisted.

*Notwithstanding, there are other extenuating issues and faults of mine that hurt him as well�those who remember my story know I REALLY hurt him. I�m not trying to say my whole marriage fell apart because of this, but if he hadn�t gotten progressively worse I�d still be with him. Not happily married, LOL, but still with him.

Last edited by DaisyTheCat2; 05/20/10 05:24 PM.

"If you will stop feeding your feelings, then they will stop controlling you" -Joyce Meyer
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,463
K
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,463
Well in my case it wouldn't have mattered much because my husband lived 3 1/2 hours away and wouldn't have allowed the church to talk to him even if they'd tried. I haven't even known his address since he quit coming home over 1 1/2 years ago. Some churches do consider it their business as Luke 17:3 says: "If your brother sins, rebuke him, then if there is repentance, forgive." In my church, if a couple are living together and not married and they are members of the church, they will get a visit from the Elders, and if they refuse to get married or separate, it will be brought before the church body and they will be voted out. They also voted out a couple for getting a divorce, which I didn't think was fair because the wife was cheating, what was the husband to do, just keep taking it? But I was chastised for standing up for him. The pastor told the church he'd tried to reach him to get his side but the man said the pastor knew how to get in touch with him and never did.


Enacting life's lessons into positive change... .
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870
C
Member
OP Offline
Member
C
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870
I didn't mention that I had approached authority figures in the church about getting help and yes she lost friendships because of confrontations she had with other members over diferances of opinions. I won't go into detail because I feel I am getting into a church bashing mode and it was not my intention.

I probably did not give an accurate picture of how this particular church, its Pastor, and the congregation conducted themselves and maybe it would just be a selfish thing to try and get others to see what I am saying or agree with me. Its Ok I understand what happened that effected me because of my relationship with my wife.

You can't posibly know what the dynamics were and it would be more destructive than benificial for the cause of Christ to split hairs about what we are accountable for as Christians.

I would rather speak positivly about those who serve God and support an open minded process for healing than crucify even those who abused the power they had. Who am I to judge? Maybe I would also have done the same, but i doubt it.

Because the word of God is true and even when used by people to control others those who hear God through his word and not the personality of the speaker can benifet as i have. So unless i can think of some way for you to see that what i said had merit I will just retract what I said about expecting help from them. Im not a person who needs to be right and show myself perfect all the time. I hope i wil never be that foolish

Thank you for having the respect for me to tell me those things even though you thought i would or could be offended. That might be just the kind of confrontational stuff I expected my wife to recieve from someone who stated they were her friend, and thats what I meant.

I don't see how I could convince you that this particular situation merited some more integrity and guts from the authorities in her church and will side with free will with you as God has intended it.

I have allready forgiven but will never forget how we were hung out to dry but the one I still need to forgive first is myself. I was responsible for my wife and whatever foolish behaviuor I allowed or line of crap i bought emotionally is something I will work out in time with the help of my friends in Christ who "buy the truth, and sell it not".

Thanks again Guys. smile


Me 56 Former BS
Widowed 5-17-09 --married 25 years.
4 children
DS-35 previous marriage--18-22 DGrandSons 6 and 4
Me former BS
DD-29 with DGDs 5 and 1yr
DSs 26 and 23
Teilhard de Chardin..“We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience.” ...Sounds about right to me.
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870
C
Member
OP Offline
Member
C
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870
But really yes i was ranting and whining and venting. I hope I did not offend anyone.

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,178
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,178
No offense taken, Sort. And you're right, I don't know the details, and don't need to. I just saw you taking a direction that I myself have gone many times, and I know that for me, it feeds my resentment.

The thing that strikes me most is that you are also beating yourself up for your "mistakes". Witholding forgiveness from yourself.

Quote
Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

That last part about forgiving sins applies not just to others, but to ourselves. When we refuse to forgive ourselves, we contine to hold onto the pain of separation from God. Letting go is very hard; so much of my "identity" is wrapped up in what I have done wrong, my pain, my bad habits. I think that is what is meant by dying to self, letting go of those things we think are who we are.

Nothing we can do today can change the past (I know, you know this. But do you KNOW it? I sure don't a lot of the time!). No amount of punishing ourselves, analyzing ourselves, or even trying to improve ourselves will ever change it. I get caught in this trap . . . as if by punishing myself or understanding the past, I can somehow redeem myself. The problem is that redeeming myself is not my job, not my side of the street, and actually has already been done by someone far more powerful than I will ever be. I may never fully understand the lessons of my mistakes. I may never fully get to know the "why". My hope is that through time I will gain ever deeper awareness. But that awareness is for God to give to me, in His time. For my part, it is best that I do what it takes to become open and willing to receive the awareness and in the mean time become better at following the directions He gives rather than relying on my own understanding.

My absolute favorite verse is "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him and he will direct your path." Even in my sinfulness, my willfulness, and my mistakes, I acknowledge him, and I have never been failed yet. It is a deep contentment knowing this, and experiencing it.

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870
C
Member
OP Offline
Member
C
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870
I get what you mean by knowing something or really knowing it. When you really know it you think, feel, respond, and base most of your actions on it being an absolute tangible thing as obviuos as a rock or stone would be.

This also is where we get into trouble when we expect people to do what they say in reguards to what they profess. They agree that the ideal is sound but they many times just give lip service to gain authority when later they back out of the commitment. They won't keep a commitment to thier own hurt because words are tools for manipulation to them. They sound good but they imply or even state they will enforce them when they have no intention of backing them up. Or they just are guilty of wishful thinking.. hard to tell.

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870
C
Member
OP Offline
Member
C
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870
That might be one of the main points to the question of the thread.

When we get hurt by others because we give them part of what we entrust God for, to take care of, to even nurture along with us as we grow together,(well thats the idea anyway)our heart. Then we experience pain of rejection along with whatever Gaslighting we accept as part of the punishment for not being perfect enough for them. (Another human obviuosly). We sometimes learn to react in response to another human being or emotioanally respond in situations,(triggers?), based on what we are used to. Like Past conditional response.
We are creatures of habit and ussually take the line of least resistance when it comes to how we change, or should I say why we change. Until something becomes so painful that we seek a way out ussually we remain the same. Hence the nessesity of tough love when we grow up and out of past comfortabiliy zones within ourselves.

We also need to have relationships that reflect honest balanced emotional responses. We get these examples from our parents and peers. We will learn what feels right by what reactions we get from them and our security lies in them accepting us/loving us so if they are unbalanced we will be also by learning from them what "feels" right.

Stockholm syndrome comes to mind when i think of how human beings teach love and proper accepted behavior. From a picture perfect household of parents who are doing the best they can to lovingly teach thier children to the twisted messed up parents who only seek to appease thier emotions selfishly without reguard for the children the result is the same. The first reaction emotionally,(trigger), causes a response emotionally that either feels foriegn and scary or familiar and comforting.

In either case we can draw upon God but its important that its God and not a personality, even a great personality, that we draw from. These words mean a lot to me...

2 Peter 2

18. For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

19. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

But for us human beings seeking friends who we can accually talk to we are reduced to the Men and Women of God who can profess and carry out to the best of thier abilities His love for us and they bring with them thier own falibiliy because they are human. But we make a human connection with people who have empathy and we need to have those or we experience life alone.

If we are not believers we still believe in some type of system of behavior/morality that will reward us if we act correctly and we seek others who support that system of belief.

The point is that we need people to experience relationships and we will seek them out even if what we have for core triggers and emotional reactions are not in our best interest at the time. Sometimes returning to situations we thought we had escaped or were damaging habits we responded to in the past.

How does an individual learn not to fall into such things? Ok for one I would say they learn from thier mistakes as soon as they realize them. Then they suffer the pain and take responsibility for it. They forgive themselves for the mistake and realize that they need to change, They seek guidance, counsel, and practice changed behavior based on the realization that they are in charge.

All this is part of living and marriages are supposed to be built on the idea we will grow together in these ways rather than grow apart but we hold onto those emotional triggers and desires expecting them to stay the same and be frozen in time. Sometimes we want to change someone to fit what we ultimatly desire just to find out years later that we don't desire that person anymore or what we turned them into as they complied or we find ourselves rejected even though we did everything we were asked.

The problem with those emotions lie within us, There is a verse in scripture that goes,,"A three fold cord is not easily broken" meaning a braided rope but representing two people bonded together with Christ in the midst. We will never be perfect and as our journey in life shows us our mates will not either so the truth about this along with the forgiveness needed to let each other be human and fallible while still loving each other and seeking guidance is essential if we are to grow together as one.


More later..


Me 56 Former BS
Widowed 5-17-09 --married 25 years.
4 children
DS-35 previous marriage--18-22 DGrandSons 6 and 4
Me former BS
DD-29 with DGDs 5 and 1yr
DSs 26 and 23
Teilhard de Chardin..“We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience.” ...Sounds about right to me.
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,178
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,178
Quote
We will learn what feels right by what reactions we get from them and our security lies in them accepting us/loving us so if they are unbalanced we will be also by learning from them what "feels" right.

I'm not so sure this is healthy thinking. Granted, I took it out of context.

My security does NOT come from someone else loving and accepting me. Because that gives another human being WAY too much power that is not really theirs. My security comes from loving and accepting myself.

I think triggers, and even emotions to some extent, are conditioned responses. Sometimes they are an early warning system for us, alerting us to danger. Sometimes they are a signal that we are in a place that is familiar and comfortable, even if the situation is ultimately unhealthy. We tend to attract the same learning opportunities over and over again, until we finally learn the lesson.

Should emotions and triggers be trusted? I don't know. But I know they shouldn't be discounted, especially if they are strong emotions. Any time I have a strong emotional reaction, that's a sign that I need to check my motives. More often than not it happens when I am living on autopilot instead of living intentionally each day.

I've found that the more intentionally I live, the fewer emotional triggers I have, and the less confusing. Instead of being the enemy, my triggers are my guides helping me navigate through murky water, foggy visibility, rocky shoreline. They are a reminder that I've been here before, and this time, I know tht I have a choice, when before, I didn't.

Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 1,116 guests, and 67 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Mike69, petercgeelan, Zorya, Reyna98, Nofoguy
71,829 Registered Users
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2019, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5