Excellent point, as usual, Mrs. W!!!!

Sorry, this is the first time I've had to respond. I only have a few minutes, so don't look at my spelling and hope I'm coherent. No time to quote and respond to everyone.

Maybe I overreacted, so I'll try and explain why I got so annoyed. First off, if I hadn't of found MB our M wouldn't have had a chance. So we are in agreement about the value of MB. I would recommend to anyone trying to improve their R or deal with infidelity to use the MB approach. There isn't any step by step instructions out there, except for MB, about how to end an A. I sure as he!! wouldn't have known. What I object to is the notion that you can't fine a really good pro-M therapist who isn't versed in MB. The thing that new BSs need to know is what questions to ask a MC.

The other thing is this, which will probably get me in trouble here. As fantastic as MB is for breaking up and A and giving the behavioral tools for improving a M, I have always thought it is weak in the actual recovery process. At least in my case. This is a trauma and so MB techniques alone don't necessarily help in the healing process for both the BS and the FWS. When I have some time I can share a conversation I had with both Steve and Dr. Harley regarding what I needed to personally recover.

My final objection is concerning the notion that looking at the past isn't helpful. I would NEVER force the issue of past work. Yet I have seen over and over that people who have trauma in their childhoods, teens, and even later can get stuck developmentally. That is another reason why sometimes a BS or WS can't properly implement the MB tools until they deal with some of their past issues. I can give some examples of that also. Schtoops's quote from Dr. Harley speaks to that issue.

Melodie, I get pissed off every time I hear the crappy MC stories, or ICs for that matter. Unfortunately this profession is like any other. You learn on the job, from your own experience, and their are crappy people in every profession. I had zero experience in family therapy and am sure I'm way better now than I was 19 months ago.

Mrs. W, a therapist is only as good as the work they have done on themselves. Also, our MC wasn't "touchy feely" at all. He had the ability to do individual work with both H and I in the context of MC. He wasn't afraid to deal with the issues together.

Got to go!

CV55, I agree with you that there are some pro-marriage MC's out there that do utilize MB concepts. They are very few and far between.

I adamantly don't agree that MB concepts are "weak" in the recovery process. That is a statement that can't possibly be supported, especially in light of the numerous couples on this forum who went to MB weekends, used the counseling, etc, who are fully recovered and happy, well adjusted individuals. His program is exceptionally STRONG, especially because they do not delve into the past. Dr Harley's program has the most successful track record in the business, so I am going to let that speak for itself. If his recovery process was "weak" then why does it work in virtually every case it is used?

This program is right in line with other very successful programs that are behaviorally based, ie: AA, NA, etc rather than feeling based, tradional counseling. In fact, counselors come to AA for help wtih their own drinking problems and send their own clients to AA.


I also STRONGLY disagree with this and have to side with Dr Harley. The solution to being "stuck develop0mentally" is to learn new behavior, not to sit in a counselors office for years on end yapping - AS I DID FOR YEARS. One does not have to dig up the source in childhood to solve that. NOT AT ALL. [not that its possible to ever even find the source]

Dr Harley does not believe it is useful to delve into the past, except as a way to line a counselors pockets. As someone who actually HAD a traumatic upbringing, and who wasted years in a counselors chair I will tell you that delving into my past kept me STUCK in the past and distracted me from resolving current problems. It kept me ANGRY about things that happened 20 years ago that had no bearing on my adult life. All it did was bring the past into the present...........for no reason.

What changed my life in an effective and dramatic way, was NOT wasting time flapping my gums in a counselors office [and I went for years and years!] was changing my BEHAVIOR by using the 12 steps of AA. It was changing my PRESENT BEHAVIOR that unstuck me. Once I changed my habits, the mind followed.

There is a good book that reviews how ineffective, and even harmful, counseling can be that focuses on the past. It is titled One Nation under Therapy, How the helping culture is eroding self reliance by Christina Hoff Sommers and Sally Satel, MD



In my opinion, based on reading and researching successful counseling programs, the best ones are the ones that focus on changing behavior.

I realize you are a counselor, but I would only point out that Dr Harley is a licensed psychologist with 35+ years under his belt. One of the things that has differentiated him from all the others is his unique approach to this issue. This is why he is more successful than most others in this business.

I don't agree that it is like any other profession. What other profession has an 84% failure rate? If a mechanic had an 84% failure rate, he would be OUT OF BUSINESS. If I had an 84% failure rate, I would be fired. Just as most of the counseling profession SHOULD BE.

Who else gets away with that??

Like Dr Harley stated about his own experience using traditional counseling techniques:

here


Well, if you are interested in "experience" take a look at what 35+ years experience says:

Melodie, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on some of our opinions. What we agree on is that Dr. Harley's understanding of As using an addiction model is revolutionary IMO. His behavioral methods of increasing love by meeting needs and avoiding LBs are fantastic. If it weren't for Steve Harley I would have dumped my H during the whole withdrawal period. He helped me get through that.

You are absolutely correct that my minimal experience as a counselor can't compare with Dr. Harley's 35 + years and his PhD. I guess what I do have on Dr. Harley is the experience of actually being a BS and doing what I needed to do personally in order to heal the gaping wound, which was necessary in order to heal our M. You wrote:

"Dr Harley's program has the most successful track record in the business, so I am going to let that speak for itself. If his recovery process was "weak" then why does it work in virtually every case it is used?"

When I was hanging out in the Recovery forum for a significant period of time I often would see BSs frustrated because either their FWSs couldn't quite meet their needs, and/or the BS couldn't get the A out of his/her head and still questioned if they should have left. Maybe those people were just rare exceptions.

"his program is right in line with other very successful programs that are behaviorally based, ie: AA, NA, etc rather than feeling based, tradional counseling. In fact, counselors come to AA for help wtih their own drinking problems and send their own clients to AA."

I think AA is great. I love what I know of the 12 steps. During recovery I lived by the Serenity Prayer. Therapy and AA don't need to be an either/or proposition is someone needs some individual work.

"I also STRONGLY disagree with this and have to side with Dr Harley. The solution to being "stuck develop0mentally" is to learn new behavior, not to sit in a counselors office for years on end yapping - AS I DID FOR YEARS. One does not have to dig up the source in childhood to solve that. NOT AT ALL. [not that its possible to ever even find the source]"

"Dr Harley does not believe it is useful to delve into the past, except as a way to line a counselors pockets. As someone who actually HAD a traumatic upbringing, and who wasted years in a counselors chair I will tell you that delving into my past kept me STUCK in the past and distracted me from resolving current problems. It kept me ANGRY about things that happened 20 years ago that had no bearing on my adult life. All it did was bring the past into the present...........for no reason."

Well, as far as lining my pockets, I'm not getting any extra money by doing short term or long term therapy. My salary is what it is either way. I tell my clients and their families that my job is to have them not need my assistance anymore. Concerning past work, I'll say this again, I don't believe in forcing the issue. However, I have seen MANY times how people are unable to make behavioral changes because their triggers automatically put them in a place that does affect their current relationships. I have witnessed people making real behavioral changes when they become aware of this. When the past affects the present I think it needs to be addressed in the present.

Maybe I was a freak in how I needed to heal from H's A. My recovery methods were not necessarily supported by Dr. Harley. I needed to relive the past with H until emotionally I got it out of my system. Recovery is so complicated. We the victim are trying to heal with our perpetrator. How weird is that? At first Steve didn't support what I needed and then concluded I knew what I needed. Dr. Harley told me that with some traumas, such as rape, flooding is helpful but he didn't recommend it for recovering from infidelity. I knew in my gut I had to do just that to heal. It's probably not recommended because it's a really hard thing for the FWS to go through. Truthfully I really didn't care because going through the A and the god-awful Plan A was hard for me.

Definition of flooding:

"Flooding is a form of behavior therapy and based on the principles of respondent conditioning. It is sometimes referred to as exposure therapy or Prolonged exposure therapy. As a psychotherapeutic technique, it is used to treat phobia and anxiety disorders including post traumatic stress disorder. It works by exposing the patient to their painful memories,[1] with the goal of reintegrating their repressed emotions with their current awareness."

CV,

I have read a lot of your posts, as a long-time lurker before I plucked up the courage to post.

I, like you, have been on the difficult end of the recovery spectrum, taking longer than some other people on the Recovery forum in your days there, who seemed to be doing better after a shorter period. I put my extended period down to the repeated D Days I suffered. My H travelled abroad, and without MB, I did not know how to stop him taking his affair deeper underground. I had D Days at 6 weeks, 2 years, then 6 months later, then about 9 months later. With more events to overcome, the greater the resentment, and so it has been for me.

I am only telling you the above in order to explain that I do understand difficult recoveries and being a needy BS, because I have been through one and was needy.

Having said that, I cannot agree that recovering the past, over and over, was the only way that you could have healed.

You tried that method, along with SH coaching, and in the end it worked. However, you do not know what would have happened if you followed only Dr Harley's method, of examining the affair and the "reasons" just enough to see how it happened and how to stop it, then putting it in the past. It might well be that reliving the affair kept you in your unrecovered state for longer than might have happened with the Harley method alone. I know it did me. I did not relive the affair in therapy, but in repeated conversations with my H. These were not very often after the last D Day in 2006; perhaps every two months, declining to a year, and now we have not spoken of it for nearly a year, and over a year before that last time.

I do intend that to be the last time, because talking about the affair only makes me unhappy, and more than that, ANGRY with my stupid H for creating this mess. I am able to not talk about it anymore because H works hard to create a happy marriage for us, and if I focus on our very good present, and not on the miserable wickedness of the past affair, I am happy.

You went against SH and Dr Harley's advice, and you are recovered now, but that does not mean that this was the only way for you to get to where you are. You have never done a comparison of the two methods, as I understand you to be saying.

Those are not cases where the program is being tried. Those are cases of people not using the program.

The 100% success rate is often misconstrued, particularly by people who want to build up some other model of marriage advice, I've noticed. The 100% success rate is for couples who've used the program, as given. The program works when followed, and Dr. Harley has never seen any exceptions. The "exceptions" are couples where one or both people are not following the program.

It does remain true that the program can't force a reluctant spouse to follow the program; there have been no claims of 100% success for that. But there is still a pretty good track record of motivating reluctants to try the program.

SugarCane, I am not at all recommending that anyone should follow my way or do as I did. I can tell you without a doubt that I did exactly what I had to do. It is something that I am very clear about.

In the beginning of our recovery process I grilled H about some very gory sexual details. I even wondered if I went too far. My IC gave me some great advice. She said that I would know the answer if I felt better or worse. Every thing that I felt I needed to do on my recovery "to Do" list made me feel better and heal.

In recent weeks I've had to drive through a park which was the first place H and OW stopped to make out which led to sex that night. That park used to trigger the heck out of me. When H was emotionally ready, we drove to that park, parked in exactly the place he thought he was with OW, and he allowed me to cry, be pissed off, do whatever I needed to do to get it out. I immediately felt better and didn't need to do that again. Now I drive through that park and my only thought is "H was really screwed up back then."

Recovery takes 2 to 5 years because it ain't easy. Affairs are all very boring in how similar they are. However they are different in what was going on when the A occurred and what unresolved issues people bring to the table. In your case circumstances made your recovery more difficult. I don't want to confuse anyone here. If following the MB plan to the letter, and if most folks are able to do that, great. We can just look at my experience as being an anomaly.

Like Sugarcane, I wonder how you would have healed without flooding? In my situation, where I experienced adultery, divorce and the death of my beloved 18 year old son all within 6 months, the only way I recovered was by avoiding triggers. A trigger could send me into a tailspin for days, bringing the past into the present.

I had this exact same experience dealing with childhood traumas of rape, physical assault, neglect and verbal abuse. Bringing those issues into the present did nothing to resolve current problems but only made them worse. Delving into my childhood kept me angry and triggered. The kind of therapy you describe makes me sick just thinking about it and I would never have recovered that way.

Nevertheless, that is anecdotal data which is basically meaningless. What is meaningful, though, are the studies in the book I referenced, that show this exact same thing. The majority of trauma victims actually DO WORSE with this kind of therapy. They do better when they AVOID counseling and grief support groups.

CV55, I can make the same claim, except I didn't go to the place, cry and get pissed off and LOVEBUST my H in the process.

By avoiding the place altogether for a couple of years, my feelings faded. My feelings wouldn't have faded if I continually scratched the scab off that wound. I am better off that way and so is my marriage because I didn't have to lovebust my H and bring the past into the present.

We don't EVER talk about his affair anymore, and haven't for YEARS, because that is a lovebuster. It ruins our time together by bringing past into the present.