I more than understand the fine line you speak of...

I could go on and on about little differences and I'll likely think of a million things to say to you AFTER I finish this post...

so just a few things:


Doing what you can because it's your duty to honor your vows as long as you remain married but doing so without the expectation that your wife just HAS TO respond favorably to you or you'll die (or be lost completely) is strong. Wanting to save your marriage for your kids AND to save your wife from the destructive path she is on is honorable and strong. Wanting to right some of the wrongs you've done here-to-date in the marriage because it's the right thing to do...and not solely because you desperately hope your wife will change her mind and PICK YOU is strong. (remember...she's already "picked you" once and she doesn't have the right to "pick" again...as long as you live...you are her one and only rightful husband...so act like it)

It comes down to motivations and whether you are at peace with whichever decision your wife makes. Whether you know with 99.9% certainty that you are going to be OK no matter the outcome and you TRY to influence the decision as best you can...but have accepted it's beyond your absolute control.

This isn't a situation men often excel at...no matter the willpower you throw at the situation...it's beyond your control. In fact, the more you try to control the outcome the more needy and desperate you'll appear and, thus, the less attractive. You have to "fight" enough for your wife that she knows you care, that you cherish her and that you'll fight for her but you can't "fight" with desperation in word and action. Instead confidence is your ally. It's manly. You KNOW she'll choose you....because she'd be a fool not to (and if she doesn't then it's her loss anyway).

You are her husband...nobody else will ever do for her the things that you will. NO ONE. Have faith in yourself and your family and fight for it...with the preconceived notion that if it doesn't work...it won't be because of you and you are willing to accept that result.

Pray for the power to change what you can change and accept that which you can not.

Also pray for patience...lots of it. A foggy withdrawing wife is horrible to be around...especially for a hurt betrayed husband. But trust that if and when you recover...she'll remember how solid you were and be ashamed and embarrassed about the things she said and did. If you don't recover...you'll hate that you endured this slow torture but you'll carry on with the full knowledge you gave it your best which is far better than the "kick her to the curb" guy that ends up speculating FOREVER about what could have happened had he only tried.

Being willing to forgive and reconcile IS STRONG.

I hope you get there.

Mr. Wondering

MrWondering...your words continue to be therapy...no matter what the day and situation is for me, you come through with your words. Thank you.

Seems like just 'breathing' the same air as me bothers her at times. She is frustrated these days. That everything is going slow. That we are on different pages of life - me marriage, her leaving. That living under the same roof is tough for her.

I have been nothing but nice and pleasant. She still brings up past wrongs of mine, although not as much. Just this morning, I complimented her travel planning skills and that 'triggered' her from a past hurt that I did. She told me about it for 10-15 minutes and I listened....but she was bothered. Yesterday, she was talking about how I was 'keeping' her from 'talking to him.' I told her I could not force her to do anything that she did not want.

This is so frustrating. Today, I gave her the day to herself...she texted 'why - not to be worried about upsetting her.' I texted her that 'I was just giving her the space that she wanted. And needed.' She just responded 'thank you.'

Seems like all the Plan A and good guy behavior I have been doing for the past 10 weeks have really not gotten us anywhere. Yes, I have had specks of hope thrown here and there - actions more than words, but basically, she is still determined that she wants out. And she is empty inside. She mentioned that 'one day, she may give it a chance again' but right now, 'she was out.' To which I answered that 'that assumes that I would be waiting' and that 'divorce would hurt and devastate me so bad I am not sure I would be willing to give it another try.'

The definition of insanity is 'doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.' Not that I am giving up at all, but I think space may be a good thing here. Give her reason to miss me. To miss us? Maybe? The ultimate sacrifice from me, but I do not want to be divorced, nor do I want to be removed from our house. I will not enable a divorce, so she knows I am still 'dragging' my feet and want to give this marriage a try.

Plan B time? Not sure where I am here. This is tough. My faith is with God and I know I cannot change her, easier said than done. Lots of prayer taking place. She is going to visit with her sister this weekend and from my understanding, the sister and in-laws want this marriage to work. So, I have allies...I want my wife to be on board though. This has not gotten any easier in any way.

Therein lies the problem. Plan A for you until you are done. You may be there and if so, Plan A ends in recovery OR Plan B. Remember the no expectations part of Plan A my brother. I do share your frustration though.

Excellent post Mr. W!! Very helpful to me as well, thanks.

Nothing really surprising today. Just typical anger at something.

Asks me 'if I am angry because I think I deserve a second chance at this marriage.' To which I responded I have not been angry at all, just devastated.

She asks me options as to what I am planning to do? I tell her she wants this, so I am not enabling anything. I want my family together.

She tells me she thinks she is talking to my therapist, not me because of my answers.

She gives an option to live one week on, one week off in the house. I say fine, find somewhere else that we can both be happy in. She changes her mind and says she would rather live in the house (her mom lives next door attached to our house) so she used that. I give her the option to go move in with her mom - she says no, that is not getting away from me. Then I tell her that we can sell the house then (after adding our mother in law quarters, we have way more in the house than it is worth). She says ok - I tell her to call the realtor then. She says "me" and I tell her again, I don't want this, I am not doing it. The realtor happens to be a good friend of ours - she says, 'then I have to tell him what is going on' and I tell her that "i am not telling him anything.' I asked repeatedly what I could be doing that would make her happy right now. She never had an answer.

Basically, she wants me to do all the work and hand her a divorce. She knows that I am not going to do any of it. That is one of the things that makes her SO mad.

This is really really really hard to deal with. I am handling it well, but my goodness, there is no logic or sense with her. Very frustrating. Going to a movie with a friend tonight...will laugh and get my mind off this for a little while

And I just got home from my movie...and she is almost curled up on her bed. I ask if I can come in because she does not look ok. I ask are you physically hurting? She says no. I ask if there is anything I can do and she says no. She asks how my night was and what movie I saw. I tell her and then ask if there is anything I can do, just let me know. She nods no and I leave the room.

She is ready for this to be over I think. She is really miserable. She thinks it is because I am here and OM is not? I do not know...or withdrawal is kicking her behind? Remember, she has been really short this week. I know, all part of the process and I cannot worry about her, just myself but as my wife, of course I worry about her well-being. But, also, I believe that she could feel better instantly by letting go of the OM dream, committing to working on our marriage and going from there. Perhaps not that easy, but do-able in my opinion. I hope she gets there. And by that, I mean WE get there

And this morning she wakes up angry. I ask if she slept well, she says 'no and I don't even know who I am talking to anymore. You sound like your therapist.'

She left and did not have breakfast with us. Just mad. What is going on for her? Would she prefer to have my 'old' self back so she can justify leaving? Or is this behavior throwing her for an internal loop? I am so confused. I feel ok though....just don't understand. Any explanations?

And this line about her:
Basically, she wants me to do all the work and hand her a divorce. She knows that I am not going to do any of it. That is one of the things that makes her SO mad.

Means that your winning this thing.

Her plan is NO PLAN. Yours is Plan A, then Plan B, then maybe recovery or Plan D.

Your WAY AHEAD of her.

And its working. Just keep doing the right things.

LG

Thanks lousygolfer.

I can see the sense that it is working, but I sure cannot feel it. This still sucks beyond any recognition.

That's a man's solution and not at all a realistic expectation/hope.

This is a process.

Some WW's dig in their heels and stubbornly proceed with their stated intentions...divorce.

Others...the ones that do recover...drag on through withdrawal and every now and then have a series of minor "a-ha" moments.

My best advice is to TRY to call a figurative "time-out" on the war and tell her that whether or not you end up divorced you want to enjoy this summer. That you just want to have fun with her and that obviously there is a lot more going on with her than you ever knew. That you are interested in getting to know that person you see in front of you right now regardless of the outcome. Plus...if you do end up divorced you'd like your children to not experience this process as super negative. Essentially...you are tricking her into letting her guard down and allowing you to meet her needs. You are also playing into the feigned youthful exuberance of the wayward mind (they think they have found the fountain of youth and are so "cool"). You get her OUT alone without any indication of constant serious relationship talk (don't bother as it's fruitless anyway). You avoid serious talk...you actually distract away from it. You aren't needy or desperate...as the future is uncertain. You aren't even sure what you want...other than to enjoy this summer and get to know her. When you talk focus the conversation on HER as talking about oneself is just about everyone's favorite subject (especially waywards).

Have a few beers and genuinely try to have a good time...if and when you can get her out. It's important the first few times to just go with the flow and try VERY hard to avoid seriousness. Just tell her that's for another day...not tonight as tonight is a break from the seriousness and stress of the situation. You want to instill that, in the future, she can trust you when you tell her it's a "night off" from the stress that is your marriage today.

You end up making HER the one that pushes for relationship talk and when she initiates it...you can go along but try to observe the conversation and not force it....stay calm. Trust that as the actions of meeting her needs mount...her feelings will follow. Each deposit you make will make it that much harder for her to destroy the family.

I am not telling you to avoid conflict indefinitely. As it's only THROUGH conflict that intimacy can be achieved. It's just that right now...conflict is unproductive as her ability to utilize logic is impaired. After several "dates" and when SHE initiates it...productive calm conflict can and should be pursued. You'll always be able to say "Hey, I didn't want any serious talk tonight...you pushed this conversation that way so let's just stop this meanness (or whatever) right now and get back to just having fun".

In addition...because your wife is depressed and withdrawing (hopefully you are diligently snooping to ensure "no contact")...YOU will be the one that has to arrange the sitter and make all the plans. Be clever...try to arrange plans in advance (she'll say no to everything if it's the last minute...as "right now" doesn't work well on depressed people). She will hopefully be compliant with plans that are several days away and if you make it plans that are tough to back out of all the better (like tickets are already purchased or other couples are confirmed).

Good luck,

Mr. W

My WW went through a very angry phase as well. Seething everytime she saw my face. I think the anger helps mask the guilt for what they have done. Stay calm and respond with loving actions and she won't be able to keep it up. Keep working your plan, I can see positive signs. (I do have to qualify that by saying I am the eternal optimist.) When she acuses you of being like your therapist that is her way of denying the changes you have made. Stay consistant and she will see the changes are real. I'm pulling for you even when I'm not posting.

Oh, this is SOOOOOOOO true.

Whenever I meet someone divorced who goes unsolicited out of his/her way to impress upon me that �our divorce was for the best--my ex & I are still really good friends!�, I mentally make a note.

I know right then that the person boasting like that to me was very likely������.the CHEATER.

Igrip/Mr. Wondering,

This is bar none the BEST description I have ever read of a BH�s mindset, what his plan should be, how he should enact that plan, and the difficulties/pitfalls he will encounter along the way. Thank you, Mr. W, for putting all that into words�you obviously have �been there�.

It hit me personally because I have been there too. It brought me back to one particular conversation I had with my (then) �horrible to be around� WW (how apt that characterization truly is) in late 2006. She had just finished upbraiding and vilifying me for the ump-teenth time in full self-serving, fogged-out fashion and I, with utter calmness and confidence, said to her: �It�s ok, no need to worry, I am and will be just fine no matter what�. She choked up and threw her arms around me clearly impressed and more hopeful. I was crushed and crumbling on the inside but steeled myself to act completely strong and unflappable on the outside. It works, trust me, and it had a powerful effect upon her.

Unfortunately, such moments were overshadowed by many others full of unattractive desperation and neediness. I didn�t do a good job of being patient and tried too hard to change and convince her (with words that is). It is exceedingly difficult to be �solid and strong� continually while the one person you care about and value more than any other in your life is lying, manipulating, selling you out, and ripping you apart�and you don�t even comprehend why. It is very �natural� to lapse unknowingly into Plan Doormat as I freely admit I did (before knowing MB).

Plan A can be very counter-intuitive, especially when you are so hurt and confused and emotionally distraught. It is almost as though the less you appear to care (as in �I need you�), the more care-worthy you become. The less you speak to convince, the more convincing you are. The less direct pressure you place upon her, the more pressure she will feel. The less you want, the more you are likely to get.

Sounds crazy I know�but it is true.

Thanks everyone for the kind words. Today, another day. Remember, this forum is also my 'blog' so one day, I can look back and remember. She went on a trip this morning...work trip and visit her sister at the same time. She wanted some graphics for her car (she is working a race) and she went to WalMart to find some last minute, but they did not have any. I, in a considerate move to surprise her, last night, went to a friends house (our friend and a former friend of the OM - since this happened, they have not spoken) as he has a vinyl business and we made and designed a sweet setup for my wife.

Surprised her with it this morning...to which she said 'she was not taking it nor looking at it because he made it.' I asked what she had against him and she said 'he passed judgement on OM before they even spoke.' And then she mentioned two other friends that I exposed to and she did not 'like' them either since they judged her as well.

I, of course, was hurt since I tried to make her happy. Regardless, the friend texted her and asked her how she liked her graphics. She told him that she did not look at them or take them and told him why. He responded that 'he didn't agree to their actions together. Also, he told her it was crappy that she was using the numbers from OM's old racecar. I did not know this - she told me it was just a random selection. I was hurt and devastated again.

She called me when she arrived and told me about her day. She asked how I was and if I had talked to our friend. I told her about the numbers..and SHE TRIED TO LIE again. I quickly called her on it and the subject quickly changed.

She lied to her sister as well as she arrived keeping her waiting for 45 minutes...quoting phone problems, but she had no problem posting a pic on Facebook. Her sister was frustrated at her. Her sister-in-law kept me in the loop. My wife is normally not inconsiderate, late, etc. etc....and now, this is her status quo?

So, now, she is still lying, to me, her sister, does not want to be associated with anyone that does not agree with adultery...and this is all normal to her? Her sister and in-law will try to talk to her this weekend as she is with them. Not sure what to expect.

She called me tonight to check up on me. Funny, away, she sounds normal on the phone. And sadly, talking to her gives me peace as I am internally messed up at times otherwise. A friend asked me today why I am trying when she is still lying. Good question. However, I love my wife of before, not this one. If the previous wife comes back, I will be happy and we will have a great marriage. If this one sticks around, then no.

She needs to have regret and remorse about what she did - and so far, none is close.....sad sad sad.

Igrip,

Yes, this all �normal� for a WW. She is still locked in the emotional-addiction of the affair relationship. As long as she is, she will continue to lie to you and be cold to you. As long as she is, she will not display any true, sincere �regret and remorse�. The only hint along these lines you are likely to get is something like �I�m sorry you are hurt and having a hard time�. She may think this occasionally and she may even say something like that to you. It is meaningless�it is sort of like feeling bad for a moment when you see a lost dog in the rain and then driving on to resume your plans. I got all of this from my then-WW too.

Notice how such expressions are always couched in the passive or 3rd-person voice:
�Sorry you are hurt�, not �I�m sorry for hurting you�
�You are going through a hard time�, not �I know that I caused you terrible turmoil�
�and so on

There is zero chance of her ever owning up to her responsibility, acknowledging her wrong, apologizing for the pain she inflicted upon you, or displaying sincere contrition & repentance AS LONG AS SHE REMAINS INVOLVED IN THE AFFAIR RELATIONSHIP.

It is also completely �normal� for a WW to �not want to be associated with anyone that does not agree with her adultery�. Waywards, especially wayward-wives, actively search for allies. They justify, excuse, rationalize, whitewash, and sugarcoat their affair to win people over. They also demonize, scapegoat, and vilify their BH/marriage for the same purpose. Those people she can �win over��i.e. those who are willing to condone, overlook, or accept her adultery�she will cling to, hang out with, and call her �true friends�. Those people she fails to convince to �drink her Kool-Aid�, she will marginalize, avoid, and discard�after all, they can�t be her �real friends� if they �judge her�, right? This is all par-for-the-course among WWs. Likewise, with you, it is far easier for her to just call you on the phone or to avoid you physically as much as possible, then it is for her to have to spend much face-to-face time with the BH she knows she is selling out and lying to. The guilty conscience uses AVOIDANCE as a tool for SUPRESSION.

I can�t recall how long your Plan A has been ongoing. Dr. Harley recommends up to 6 months for BHs. Ultimately, it is up to you and how much pain and emotional abuse you can tolerate from her. But, remember that Plan A alone only ends the affair 15% of the time. Plan B is usually necessary at some point to shield you from the pain of her ongoing cheating and to compel her to seek ALL of her ENs from the OM alone. Give this some thought, because she is still cake-eating right now between her marriage and her affair.

How long do you want to continue (unless the affair ends) before you go into a dark Plan B???

Three months tomorrow since we stopped being a 'couple.' No wedding ring for her, separate bedrooms and NO affection or love shown from her (nor remorse).

Still an emotional roller coaster as 'triggers' set me off. So, how does Plan B work with a child? One of us has to move then right? MMMHerb told me to stay in the house as long as I could and perhaps thing would change....I don't want to leave, nor does she. What do we do?

IGrip,

Don't jump the gun here yet!

First of all, NEVER LEAVE YOUR HOUSE. If you do, she will be moving OM in asap and (possession being 9/10ths of the law) it will be assumed that you abandoned your marital residence. If physically separate residences are required for whatever reason, the CHEATER MUST MOVE, not the BS. If she doesn't want to live with you, then SHE NEEDS TO GO, not you. Don't let her bamboozle you into believing anything different (this is one of the few things my WW didn't get me to go doormat on...Thank God).
The fact that your WW still wants to stay in your marital house is a good thing--women who move out, do so to go full tilt with their affair-partner.

Secondly, I didn't realize your Plan A was only 3 months old. I thought it was longer. It sounds like you need to continue for another 3 months or so unless the Harley's advise you differently. WWs are very stubborn, tough nuts to crack and the "emotional roller coaster" you describe is all par-for-the-course. Remember (re-read Mr. Wondering's excellent description above), Plan A doesn't expect anything ("love and affection") from your WW. She won't meet your ENs one bit as long as OM is in the picture. It sucks I know, but it is "normal".

If the affair doesn't end, she doesn't recommit to her marriage, and you have been in Plan A for 6 months, then it will be time to go to Plan B. You aren't there yet.

Do I even start to call her out when I am being lied to? That sounds like a lovebuster. There are many 'signs' of lying as well...but things I cannot prove. I do not think it matters though...catching her in a lie is not going to turn her around and win her back.

This hurts so so so bad. The love of my life...acting this way. Affecting me to no end. I am in love with the MEMORY of my wife...this woman around me is NOT my wife.

Sucks..normal I understand, but sucks.

I confess I haven�t followed your thread closely over the last month or so. I am assuming that you have exposed her affair to EVERYONE POSSIBLE (incl. on OM�s side), correct??? If so, then you have indeed �called her out�.

I agree the subject of how to handle her verbally lying again and again to you face-to-face (without LB�ing) is a tricky one. You certainly don�t want to lapse into DJs and AOs. My best advice is, when she is lying right to her face, to calmly say something like: �I am happy to talk with you in a mutually open, honest, and conciliatory manner, but I am not willing to be subjected to deceits and manipulations regarding OM. I care about you as my wife too much to think of you that way. I expect you to respect my wishes to not to have any further dishonesty passing between us.� Then walk away and refuse to engage her as long as she�s spewing lies toward you.

Other MB vets may be able to help you better on this, but my general gist is to recommend that you firmly but cordially let your WW know that you will not tolerate being played as a pawn to her deceits. If she wants to lie, you can�t stop her, but you won�t be listening on the receiving end.


Igrip, I feel for you so much because what you wrote above is PRECISELY how I felt back in 2006-7. Everything you said is spot on and EXACTLY what I experienced too. If you want to talk on the phone (which I have done with several other MB-BHs), let me know and we can chat. Hang in there and God Bless�

SD

SD, I may take you up on that phone conversation one day. This is tough and she has been gone all weekend. Will see when she comes back what bag of tricks she opens as it is different daily.

Our calling card is getting used...not by me. I 'assume' I know who she is talking to. However, 'busting' her on that is really a moot point at this time. Not going to do a bit of good but force her to go deeper undercover (or just buy her own phone card). And if I am wrong for any reason, bad for me. So I think I just have to sit on that one. Sucks. But oh well, if the time comes, phone records will get brought into the 'discussion' with the lawyers.