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BTinTrouble #2406944 07/19/10 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted By: BTinTrouble
Went out shopping today. Had a nasty trigger that left me throwing up watermelon in the grocery store bathroom, love busted eachother the whole way home, she chose to take the way home that drives right by the first place they met for sex, cried rest of the way home.

Then I did one nice thing for her and apologized for love busting.

I feel a lot better.

Wish she would apologize and mostly wish she would stop defending OM. Its like when she defends him and says he's not so bad that she is also saying she doesn't think what they did was so bad.

Still trying to be happy...


Boy oh boy do i know that feeling all too well and it made me want to puke everytime my h would say anything like "she is not as bad as you think she is" or later on with "well i don't believe she did that", when i would tell him some of the things i found out about her in my snooping.

Today we do not really speak of her at all and the last time we did his words about her were not so nice (although not as mean as i would been grin ). Sometimes i think that it is hard for the WS to look at themselves hard enough to see that the person they were with was a "scum bag" because they would have to admit they were a "scumbag" at the time too and i imagine that one is difficult to see about yourself.

Consider the anti-depressants please......

Last edited by Still_Crazy; 07/19/10 07:01 AM. Reason: added thoughts
Still_Crazy #2407998 07/21/10 07:30 AM
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She doesnt really appear concerned about me when I lose my lunch. She seems to get more distant.

She told me something yesterday taht I had no idea about, a time she had went somewhere that she had previously basically told me didnt include him, but in fact, as she told me yesterday, did.

I about broke down right there.

She said, "probably shouldnt drink your protein shake" after looking at me.

Anyway, I worked through it, and later she did a few really good things to help.

She asked me to help her write a letter to my dad last night after this.

I asked what she wanted to say?

She said she wanted to apologize to him for what she did to his son.

Well, this kinda left me hanging. We have talked about regrets and she had told me that she didnt regret any of it. She regretted that I had been hurt, that she hadnt left me in Maine before moving down here, or at least regretted moving down here.

This has been something that has bugged me for a few weeks because it was evident in her actions.

She didnt regret anything.

So we had some honest talking about what regret means, what she thinks about what she did, what I think and so on.

She says that she learned a lot about herself. She learned things and ways to make herself happy, talked about things with OM about life etc that helped learn and grow a lot and she can never regret that.

I told her hell even I learned a lot from the guy working with him, but does that mean the ends justify the means? Since you appreciate the personal growth you got out of it, than it means its ok to cheat if you are growing personally?

I told her about something I had done (not cheating or anything BAD really) where I got pretty much what I wanted, but I regretted the way I had done it. Told her regret means to me that if I could go back knowing what I know now and redo something, if I would choose to redo it, than that means I regret it.

We talked about shame, right and wrong, justification, a lot in reference and as relates to our son. A neutral topic where it isnt a personal attack and we can honestly express what we want without neccesarily talking about eachother.

I told her how when she says she doesnt regret it, I basically hear that even knowing everything she knows now from MB, she is telling me that:

If I make her unhappy, she will NOT tell me, she will, again, make a decision to herself, without telling me, that she is finished, and go lie and cheat on me.

Because of this I feel like I live constantly under threat of "if you arent good enough, I will destroy you." I cannot trust her because of this, and it makes it very hard to progress at all.

Through it all, she basically said:

"I hadnt really thought about any of this. I have been avoiding thinking about it. I really am glad about the things I learned about myself. I dont know if I would have learned them if I hadnt known OM. But I guess that really doesnt make it ok. I am ashamed of what I did so I guess I do regret the choices I made. I have told you I will never do it again, but I guess I hadnt thought about, if I wont do it again, why not? Because I am ashamed of it and regret it."

We were crying and hugging and stuff but it seemed good.

I still dont really trust her, but I feel like there isnt the 10 ft wall of "no regrets" in the way of that anymore, like now I can watch her, monitor her and actually start letting her work her way back.

She caught me checking numbers on her phone on the internet to make sure a few of the ones I didnt recognize were benign. She didnt yell or anything, but appeared upset that I didnt trust her. At one point she made a comment that "I dont know what I have done to deserve you taking my phone and checking on it, I havent done anything."

I hope she understands a bit where it came from and what is going on with that.

Mostly I loved that we talked about some very touchy things and I refrained from disrespecting her and we both refrained from AOs and just LBs in general.

It was very nice to be honest.


Tom, I have no problems with you at all man. Even if you did decide to break your vows (which I dont know I havent asked or anything, but just in case) you can still post here. I hope you didnt, and I would hope that you didnt, but its a free forum, you are welcome to post.

As far as the stomach upset stuff, the most annoying thing is I am never or at least have never been like in regards to stress.

I was in a war holding people blown apart.

I killed and gutted and butchered animals since I was 4.

I have never thrown up.

So I guess its an indicator of where this whole thing is on my "stress" meter. Sheesh... insane.


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #2408153 07/21/10 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted By: BTinTrouble

She doesnt really appear concerned about me when I lose my lunch. She seems to get more distant.


This is a DJ. You only think she does not appear concerned. You can not truly know her thoughts unless you ask them (I know it is easier said than done)

Originally Posted By: BTinTrouble

She told me something yesterday that I had no idea about, a time she had went somewhere that she had previously basically told me didnt include him, but in fact, as she told me yesterday, did.

I about broke down right there.



Trickle truth is a killer too, I dont think they mean to lie to you NOW, they just do not remember what lie they told you BEFORE, so when the truth comes out it seems like they are lying again and it is right back to d-day again.

Originally Posted By: BTinTrouble

She said, "Probably shouldnt drink your protein shake" after looking at me.

Anyway, I worked through it, and later she did a few really good things to help.


This goes to show you that she is concerned since she told you not to drink your shake

Originally Posted By: BTinTrouble

She asked me to help her write a letter to my dad last night after this.

I asked what she wanted to say?

She said she wanted to apologize to him for what she did to his son.

Well, this kinda left me hanging. We have talked about regrets and she had told me that she didnt regret any of it. She regretted that I had been hurt, that she hadnt left me in Maine before moving down here, or at least regretted moving down here.

This has been something that has bugged me for a few weeks because it was evident in her actions.

She didnt regret anything.

So we had some honest talking about what regret means, what she thinks about what she did, what I think and so on.

She says that she learned a lot about herself. She learned things and ways to make herself happy, talked about things with OM about life etc that helped learn and grow a lot and she can never regret that.

I told her hell even I learned a lot from the guy working with him, but does that mean the ends justify the means? Since you appreciate the personal growth you got out of it, than it means its ok to cheat if you are growing personally?

I told her about something I had done (not cheating or anything BAD really) where I got pretty much what I wanted, but I regretted the way I had done it. Told her regret means to me that if I could go back knowing what I know now and redo something, if I would choose to redo it, than that means I regret it.

We talked about shame, right and wrong, justification, a lot in reference and as relates to our son. A neutral topic where it isnt a personal attack and we can honestly express what we want without necessarily talking about each other.

I told her how when she says she doesnt regret it, I basically hear that even knowing everything she knows now from MB, she is telling me that:

If I make her unhappy, she will NOT tell me, she will, again, make a decision to herself, without telling me, that she is finished, and go lie and cheat on me.

Because of this I feel like I live constantly under threat of "if you arent good enough, I will destroy you." I cannot trust her because of this, and it makes it very hard to progress at all.

Through it all, she basically said:

"I hadnt really thought about any of this. I have been avoiding thinking about it. I really am glad about the things I learned about myself. I dont know if I would have learned them if I hadnt known OM. But I guess that really doesnt make it ok. I am ashamed of what I did so I guess I do regret the choices I made. I have told you I will never do it again, but I guess I hadnt thought about, if I wont do it again, why not? Because I am ashamed of it and regret it."

We were crying and hugging and stuff but it seemed good.


This all sounds like really great stuff. And I know as a BS you are probably thinking well heck yes I have been thinking that DUH why wouldnt I. When sometimes it takes the WS a little bit to figure that out (especially when they are still in withdrawal).

Originally Posted By: BTinTrouble

I still dont really trust her, but I feel like there isnt the 10 ft wall of "no regrets" in the way of that anymore, like now I can watch her, monitor her and actually start letting her work her way back.

She caught me checking numbers on her phone on the internet to make sure a few of the ones I didnt recognize were benign. She didnt yell or anything, but appeared upset that I didnt trust her. At one point she made a comment that "I dont know what I have done to deserve you taking my phone and checking on it, I havent done anything."

I hope she understands a bit where it came from and what is going on with that.

Mostly I loved that we talked about some very touchy things and I refrained from disrespecting her and we both refrained from AOs and just LBs in general.

It was very nice to be honest.


It will take a very long time for you to trust her again and I know my h hated it that I checked up on him for a very long time afterwards, but too bad that is what happens when you lie and cheat on your spouse.

Originally Posted By: BTinTrouble

As far as the stomach upset stuff, the most annoying thing is I am never or at least have never been like in regards to stress.

I was in a war holding people blown apart.

I killed and gutted and butchered animals since I was 4.

I have never thrown up.

So I guess its an indicator of where this whole thing is on my "stress" meter. Sheesh... insane.


Dr Harley compares the trauma of infidelity to the trauma of the loss of a child or being raped. I have not been in either situation but I know it was VERY traumatic and very much why we all have suggested ADs. If you yourself are saying that you have never been so stressed when you have been through such tragedy that should tell you something right there.

Still_Crazy #2408187 07/21/10 01:14 PM
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BT,

In time, your FWW might thank you for checking her phone. My DH did...he said me checking it in front of him actually helped him to not contact OW.

He only said it three or four years after DDay, though.

smile

You can tell her now..."I check your phone because that's my job, now...to verify the truth. And every time I verify you're not in contact helps me to rebuild my trust in you."

And it took a long time for DH to see how awful OW was...don't rush. You won't be safe in her "feelings"...she makes you safe with her actions.

Sounds like you guys had a major intimacy breakthrough...congratulations. Accept and understand that over time, a lot of time, she can rebuild your trust as long as you hold yourself to verifying.

I was impressed and surprised my DH would sit there with me while I checked in front of him. Owning my own triggers and explaining them. Informing, not berating. That way, we faced my pain together. He was present (he couldn't cure it) WITH me...

ask her to be present with you...not combative, dismissive, not snippy, not biting. Tell her when you feel hurt, she may feel shame...doesn't mean you're shaming her.

Takes awhile to fully accept how incredible the stress and pain really are...because of your experiences, your mind will keep telling you it doesn't measure up...

accept that it does...you're not crazy. Takes time.

Oh, and be sure to tell her every single lie she tells about the A, post DDay, gives you the same traumatic effect of DDay all over again. Tell her you know she knows this...and maybe schedule an amnesty night on the last day of this month...because the lies are huge in the trauma. They cannot be tolerated, 'k?

Don't try to be happy, BT...know that you will be, just not today. Instead, be proud of your actions, your choices, and re-read Mark's post about Recovery. It's really, really hard...life-changing...self-changing. Don't think "it'll be easy"...because it won't.

Worth it? Undoubtedly. Buckle down and don't self-sabotage, 'k?

LA

LovingAnyway #2408253 07/21/10 03:06 PM
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Thank you guys so much.

Actually, for the "amnesty" idea, we already agreed that when/if she remembers things or thinks of things she hasn't told me or lied about she will write them down and every once in a while "clean the slate," as it fills up. I haven't been checking in front of her but I did tell her that every check that comes up clean is a smalln piece of trust earned.

I like the idea of having her WITH me. I have tried to explain this idea but haven't been very good. I do want her WITH me just to be my wife and hold me through it.

Actually we had a child 3 years ago who passed a day after he was born.

Honestly (call me cold) but this hurts worse than his passing. His was a tradgedy. An accident. This was a purposeful and hurtful thing done deliberately...


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #2408695 07/22/10 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted By: BTinTrouble
Thank you guys so much.

Actually, for the "amnesty" idea, we already agreed that when/if she remembers things or thinks of things she hasn't told me or lied about she will write them down and every once in a while "clean the slate," as it fills up. I haven't been checking in front of her but I did tell her that every check that comes up clean is a smalln piece of trust earned.

I like the idea of having her WITH me. I have tried to explain this idea but haven't been very good. I do want her WITH me just to be my wife and hold me through it.

Actually we had a child 3 years ago who passed a day after he was born.

Honestly (call me cold) but this hurts worse than his passing. His was a tradgedy. An accident. This was a purposeful and hurtful thing done deliberately...


So sorry about the loss of your son BT and you are correct in that this was deliberately done and not an accident.

That is part of the reason recovery is so hard and why we have suggested ADs, i know you keep avoiding the issue of them and say you do not like to take medication but please consider it, this is a very hard thing to get through.

Still_Crazy #2409598 07/24/10 08:17 AM
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Wow... had to get up at 0230 am for work...
On the way out, grab my phone, there's a letter under it.

An apology.

Just an apology, admission, no excuses, no justifications. An apology, and a request for a chance to be allowed to try again and a promise to never do it again.

I stopped by the house unexpectedly on my way to another place. She was alone.
She asked if her letter made me happy. I said no, because it doesn't make me happy that she apologized for cheating, but it does make me feel a lot better, and that maybe now there is a chance for me to be happy with her again. I thanked her for it many times.


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #2415128 08/10/10 06:37 AM
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BT update?

Still_Crazy #2416280 08/12/10 09:56 PM
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Hello BT...

Earth to BT...

Come in BT...

Zup?

Over...

Mark1952 #2416844 08/14/10 12:26 PM
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Pro tip (for free even) - learning new habits is hard.

We are both getting better. Lots of work.

Some days are better than others, other days are worse. I still think about it several times every day, still am a little sickened by it sometimes. Lots of triggers that remind me of it.

It seems better than it was 2 months ago. Not much, but a little, so I guess there is a light at the end of this tunnel.

I still get very frustrated at times, because everyone I work with, her and my bfamily, everyone, knows. I don't mind that, but they know and know that I didn't kick her out or kick his ass or anything.

I feel like I made the right choice in NOT doing either of those things, but I don't how to explain it. In some ways I WISH I had done those things. I think they both would have deserved it.

I still would love to inflict serious harm on him if the chance arose, still kinda want to sue him when his divorce is over if he has anything left.


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #2417069 08/15/10 12:36 AM
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BT,

About 2 months after NC started, I was right next door to OM's house. He was supposed to be gone that weekend or we never would have been there (we were attending a funeral for a relative).

I was walking around the 9 acre property with my SLR shooting wild flowers and such when OM pulled into his driveway. I had the long lens on the camera, pointed it his way, took a picture, looked at it on the LCD and then hit <DELETE> and watched it vanish...

I wondered if he realized how lucky he was that I didn't have a rifle with a scope.

The week after D-day I came very close to sending OM something in the mail. One was a copy of my NRA membership card. The other was a picture of my 3" group at 150 yards.

Mark

BTinTrouble #2417084 08/15/10 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted By: BTinTrouble
I still get very frustrated at times, because everyone I work with, her and my bfamily, everyone, knows. I don't mind that, but they know and know that I didn't kick her out or kick his ass or anything.

I feel like I made the right choice in NOT doing either of those things, but I don't how to explain it. In some ways I WISH I had done those things. I think they both would have deserved it.


I know the feeling here.

You think that others see you as "weak" for not doing these things and letting her "get away with" what she's done to you.

Know in your mind that just the opposite is true. NThese kind of things would have bean the eeasy road to take. Fighting for your marriage like you have takes strenghth. Some will see this and notice the strength in the changes you have made to yoursoelf. Others may not, but you need to know in your own heart that you are a strong man.

schtoop #2417304 08/16/10 07:27 AM
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BT just wondering, have you asked the family members you are speaking about?

The only reason i ask is i did ask my family members and every single one of them told me that they would prefer that we work it out and stay together.

They said that is what was best for everyone as long as we could work it out. Everyone in my family still loves my h and they do not look at either of us badly.

They are happy we are still together. So ask them what they think, do not just assume they are thinking you should have done something different.

Still_Crazy #2417384 08/16/10 10:37 AM
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Thank you StillCrazy... that's a great idea.

Mark, I got an NRA card too. And tight groups out to a few hundred meters.

I still look at her sometimes and can't believe its real. That she really did that to me.

Like living in the worst nightmare ever...


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #2418927 08/20/10 06:50 AM
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BT

Just wondering if you talked to those family members and if you feel any better about at least that one thing........

And time is the best healer BT along with following MB. I remember when i was fresh into recovery and people telling me that all the time and while i did believe them there were plenty of days that i wanted to give up and quit trying.

I kept thinking here i am changing myself to be a better spouse for a person that ripped my heart out, what the hell is wrong with this picture. Also i do have to say that the A made me take off my rose colored glasses that i had on where my h was concerned.

I think that part was very hard too, i had to look at all the faults this man had that i had just over looked all these years that now i could not live with these same faults.

Recovery is a long hard rollercoaster ride but i do think that it is for the best and the marriage comes out better in most cases when both spouses work on things.

Good luck on your journey BT!!!

Still_Crazy #2419122 08/20/10 01:54 PM
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Oh my God, spot on with the rose colored glasses.

No I have not talked to family yet. Busy work week, leave on vacation tomorrow (3 weeks in CA). I will though.

That rose colored glasses. That is just working a number on me. We have been encouraged to really communicate these things to eachother, what our needs are and provide feedback to eachother. I agree that this is important and neccesary, but before when she would do some things like lose her temper or be disrespectful, I wouldn't get as mad about it. Now I feel like she has been told, she has read the same stuff, she should know better, so when she does the same crap again, its even worse.

She asked me what was wrong the other day. I was remembering some stuff about our anniversary that was just amazing, hotel, limo, carriages, museums, romantic dinner, clubbing, huge flowers all this stuff, just all the things she loves and I kinda just realized that she had been with OM before it, loved the anniversary, said it produced a lot of "mixed feelings" in her, but she still stayed with OM after it.

I was pretty depressed about this and a couple other things on top of it.

She asked what's wrong so I told her.

Basically got some denials, some "that's your problem," and then mostly ignored. Oh, and a "you're acting like a child."

This is why I don't like answering "what's wrong," because it just seems like the question she means to ask is "what's your problem?"

I feel so frustrated and alone, even when she is next to me. Like I am not allowed to share with her.


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #2419128 08/20/10 02:18 PM
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BT, if I can jump in just really quickly here with my unsolicited advice... smile

Originally Posted By: BTinTrouble
Basically got some denials, some "that's your problem," and then mostly ignored. Oh, and a "you're acting like a child."

This is why I don't like answering "what's wrong," because it just seems like the question she means to ask is "what's your problem?"


IMVHO, you should nip this in the bud, (albet it in a non-LB'ing kind of way). Maybe some vets can speak to this a bit more, but it seems that when this kind of thing happens, it sets a bad pattern for recovery - things never go quite as well as they could, or it takes much longer and is an even harder row to hoe.

I don't know, maybe it's still residual fog/withdrawal... This just reminds me of several stories I've read here where the WW does stuff like this and the BH lets it slide.

If you don't, this may be par for the course:
Originally Posted By: BTinTrouble
I feel so frustrated and alone, even when she is next to me. Like I am not allowed to share with her.


Me - 30 (FWW)
H - 30 (BH)
DSx2
D-day: 2008
V_planifolia #2419197 08/20/10 04:26 PM
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Have a GREAT time on vacation!!!!!!!

I agree with Mrs V on this one BT, although i will admit that my H did the same types of things, he would ask and when i would tell him, he said he felt like i was punishing him and that i needed to "get over it" to be able to move on. That kind of response sent me over the edge in a heart beat.

I am not now nor have i ever been a WS so i do not know how they feel when we say those things, i am sure some guilt and some wishing it could just go away and plenty of other emotions as well. But that is par for the course on the choices they made, it takes as long as it takes.

I used to tell my h, if he was not happy with my progress of "getting over it" then he should leave, he never did......

I still at times get upset about something that happened during the A, but i bite my tongue because it has been far too long for me to bring up any A related stuff, but it is early for you it will be up front and center for a while yet.

Still_Crazy #2421385 08/27/10 09:07 AM
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On vacation. Of course, nothing is going as planned but we are having a good time anyway. It IS CA after all. Biggest trouble seems we are able to get any alone time like we had planned. Apparently not everyone wants to play with their grandson / nephew etc.

So havent gotten any walks on the beach at sunset yet...

Will keep working on it.


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #2421734 08/28/10 09:51 AM
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And another day of everything else being more important than "us."

Maybe this is HER vacation and I am just here to carry the bags and mind everyone's children while they do whatever they want?

Nice to see what happens when I say something about it.

Will try again today. Positive, specific statements.

"I'd like it if we could spend some time doing our reviews / together / etc. How do you feel about this? Can we negotiate?"

Yeah sure, maybe in a little bit is getting real old.


Lifelong recovery never ends.

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