Did some more reading. Sounds like I should phrase this way: I'd like it if you would answer a yes or no question with yes or no, or if you would add an explanation when you choose a response other than that, please. Would you like a cookie?

better?

Forget about it. Waywards lie. Your WH will lie over and over again. You are going to do PLan A even though you know your WH is lying.

You don't need to bring up every time that you know that he is or did lie to you. You just let him know that deception in a marriage is not for you. You will not accept a marriage where there isn't complete openness and honesty. You could do this, after you know that your WH has been deceitful, "I will only accept a marriage with openness and honesty, boy it's hot out today huh?" This gets your message across and your WH will KNOW that you KNOW.

I know how badly you want to say, "I caught you you lying cheating SOB. GET OUT OF MY LIFE." This would only be good if you were going into a PLan F/U. Since you are in PLan A, you will need to change the way you say things. It is much better to say things about what YOU will and will not accept.

thanks for regrounding me, Scotty. Gosh, some days the lying doesn't bother me at all. And other days it makes me crazy. Letting it go....

Just reinforces that his "confession and remorse" seems to be either short-lived or completely still aimed at getting me to redo the separation papers.

<internal thought>... Guess what, WH?! I am NOT changing the papers. Because if you wanted the marriage they would not matter to you, and until you see that, I NEED to protect me and the kids. So thank you for providing and they are off the table

Of course he wants you to change the papers. He realizes he would be screwed in that deal. He is just going to do enough to get you to agree to change them. Even when he says he will recommit to the marriage, you still need to keep those papers. They protect you and your children. THAT is the number ONE focus while you have a wayward.

you know what is so interesting about the papers, too, Scotty? That WH is the one that drew them up (I just had my laywer fill in what was missing); that WH is the one who proposed all the figures in there and all the split stuff; that WH is the one who repeatedly asked me to sign them and when I did and they were EXACTLY what he wanted, now he doesn't like them. Amazing how even when waywards get what they think they want, it isn't enough for them since they are still in the wrong.

Not saying I have done no wrong in the marriage. I have, and I am working on that EN analysis and Plan A. BUT ... still ... it is interesting that getting what they think they want doesn't make them any happier.

That is the thing that waywards just don't get. They can't see that it isn't what they really want. They know that they are unhappy and they blame YOU. In reality, the fact they have chosen to have an affair has made them even more unhappy. Then they blame YOU. That's one reason why Plan B is important. The WS can't keep blaming you, because you aren't there anymore. Then they have to look somewhere else. They usually start with the OP. A lot of LB ensues. But you are in Plan B, so you won't know and you won't care.

At the time when your WH got those papers figured out, he was probably acting somewhat out of guilt. He was willing to give you whatever he thought would get you to be happy. That way he could continue cake eating. Now, he realized, most likely through OW, that he is going to get screwed with those papers and he didn't need to give so much. Don't fret about the papers. Whenever he brings them up, you just say, "We won't need those papers anymore after we create a better marriage, want some tea?"

Hi, all. SAA came. Been reading and reading. Went to IC, they also suggested basically Plan B, so I am planning that.

Question - my LSA says that WH comes to our house the nights he has the DDs (5, 2). Since they cannot go to his place. I don't know of anyone who can be here when he comes so that I can be gone. And I cannot think of an intermediary for the email traffic.

Open to suggestions? Can I walk out, no talking, when he gets here, and come back, go straight to my room, ignoring when I come back and it is time for him to go? Thoughts on who might be an appropriate email screener? Who all have you used?

I know when I implement Plan B, I need to do it right ... working on a GOOD PLan A in the meantime, which I have not been consistent at yet, since I didn't have MB when this all started. (Thanks, seriously, to WH for bringing me to MB at all ... when he discovered that OW is an addiction for him and we started false recovery #1). At least I have some extra support in the days that are following.

Thanks!

bumping up in case someone has some intermediary thoughts? See prior post. I am still wading through the books and threads.

Thanks!

Sorry I can't help you there, but hopefully Scotty will be along again soon. She is getting pretty good at this Plan B business. Things get pretty slow on the weekends sometimes.

Sounds like you are doing the right things- reading, posting, and praying. Hang in there.

A good intermediary is someone well versed in MB.
A bad intermediary is a family member, it often is too close to home for them and they are not able to separate them self from the wayward madness. I used a family member, if I had to do it again, I would use a close MB friend.

Do you have a neighbour or close friend who is able to come for a coffee and wait for 10 mins between you are leaving, and WH is arriving back?

Would you be comfortable with waiting in your room until he comes and then letting yourself out of the house while he waits in an agreed room such as the lounge, and then again in reverse at the end of the visitation?

If you HAVE to will you be able to restrain yourself from looking at, and/or talking to him? He is not the only one who is getting a fix from contact you have with each other.

faithful, this will be a disaster having him in your house. Can this be changed? It will defeat the purpose of Plan B having him in your house and seeing him like this. Plan B is supposed to give the WS a taste of what will divorce will look like, so the usual tactic is to change the locks.

Nor will Plan B be of any effect if you see him when he comes in. That defeats the purpose entirely.

In order for Plan B to be of any effect ALL contact needs to end and the exchanges are made in a way that he is not in your home and you don't see him.

You won't be able to detach from him if he is coming in your house every week.

OK, thinking through some more of the logistics on this.

Cannot change the LSA, as it would open up all the stuff he wants to un-do (like the amount he agreed to pay for child support and the language where he can't take the kids to his place unless it is acceptable to both of us).

The locks are changed, so he cannot enter the house unless I leave it open. I saw the suggestion about me waiting in a certain room that he cannot enter - and then I leave - and then come back and he can then leave. I don't know if he would stick to that, though. I am methodically going down my full list of friends in the area to see if anyone could cover those 10 minutes each time he comes.

About Plan A: I have been reading SAA more this weekend. And with the limited interaction I have had with WH in person, as well as my emails this past week, I think I am starting to really "get" Plan A - all the stuff I have been muddling through from separation day (9/2009) until false recovery #1 (6/15/2010) has not been pure plan A, but mostly attempting to be a God-honoring wife the best way I could. So I see some strides here, and also WH appears to be noticing. (Or maybe it is just stringing me along. yes, I recognize that is a possibility).

IC suggested a lesser form of PLan B - the no contact except through IM, but leaving out the requirements. I think if I plan B it, I will go all the way. Which is why I need all the details worked through before I attempt. My LB$ is not diminished enough (praise the Lord for that!!) to make me jump too soon into Plan B where it would not be enforceable. I know that would defeat the purpose for me, and would also show WH that I can't stick to it. I CAN DO IT.

Praying for strength to keep Plan A moving while details for Plan B can be resolved.

Thanks, all for listening.

The problem with letting him in the house is that he can do what he wants while there and does not have to leave when you come home. The reason we tell BS's to change the locks is because most WS's will try to come into the house and confront the BS when he grasps that you are serious about no contact. This is the rule, not the exception. Most WS do not appreciate losing control over the BS and object strenuously.

If he is already in the house, he will have no problem confronting you whenever and however he chooses.

Additionally, having him in the house AT ALL will just keep you perpetually triggered. And it gives him a FIX and makes him feel he is still part of the family and the family home. One of the greatest benefits of plan B is denying the WS access to the family home, because this shows him what life will be like divorced. He doesn't get that much needed glimpse if he allowed to come in the house and play happy father.

In order for Plan B to have any effect at all, it has to be dark, dark, dark or it is not worthwhile, faithful.

I am not trying to be a wet blanket, but these Plan B's where corners are cut are disasters that lead to heartache and a loss of credibility for the BS. When this is the LAST remaining leverage you hold, it is a serious waste to squander a good Plan B.

faithful, what if you tell him it is too painful for you to have him in the house and ask him instead to take your children OUT with him during his visits? Many WS will pick up the kids, take them out to dinner, shopping, to Chuck E Cheese's, etc.

Why not try and finagle something like this and avoid re-doing the LSA?

faithful, can you clarify what your IC meant by "leaving out the requirements?" And do I understand correctly you are not taking his/her advice?

An effective Plan B of course would have conditions. The WS needs to know the path back.

ML,
Thanks for all the suggestions. It is late, so I will reply in depth in the AM.

But - to reassure you, you are correct that I am NOT implementing the IC's plan. I will give more details about that soon.

Taking the kids out is a good thought ... will give that serious consideration.

"Wet blanketing" is welcome. I came here asking all of you to be honest with me. And you have been through it and can offer real, valid feedback, and I appreciate all of it.

OK, to bed ... DDs get up early. More responses coming tomorrow.

Thank you, ML!

so, I'm working diligently through Plan A. Seems to be going OK. We actually had a date on Friday night - I initiated. Went to a baseball game (lots of opportunity for small talk, no R talk). Baby steps being made, maybe.

Question - I emailed WH Sunday night to ask about a date / weekend away when DDs are already to be with their grandparents. The weekend is 8/19 so a few weeks away. I know he read the email. Do I mention it again - if so, how long do I wait before bringing it up? Or, do I just wait all the way until that weekend and assume no response is just that he doesn't want to go?

Thoughts?
Thanks.

ML - sorry, I've been offline for a while. Technichal issues my IC said I should just say "it hurts too much for you to be around right now. I see by your current actions that you are not choosing the M, since you are still in contact with OW. Once you choose to end things with OW and want to talk about the M let me know and we can discuss then."

My IC thought all the demands of the Plan B letter - the EPs and such, were too much and would just push him away.

But - I agree, he needs a clear path back so that if he chooses the M, he can do X, Y & Z and then know I would be willing to work at it.

So, still Plan A'ing and working details on Plan B.

*BTW, cannot snoop so much since he is not here, and iPhone is P/W protected and I can't ever get it from him. No computer to speak of. Since I already know there is a PA, do I need the evidence from a VAR? We've already got a separation agreement, signed ... so would I gain anything or just be killing myself, until he's willing to end the A? I think I would just be making myself extra miserable ... until he's willing to NC, and then he'd give me access, right? Or am I looney tunes?

bumping, looking for help on the need for continued snooping after exposure? Or is the only forward progress I will see from here on out be once I get in Plan B after I get those details solidifed? Thanks, all.

for anyone who wants an update: WH is all about the papers. Big shocker. Got a letter from his lawyer today that they want to renegotiate the child support. So all the play nice date night stuff appears to have been aimed at softening me up to change the papers.

NO. NO. NO. Standing firm. I will work on the marriage. I am committed to being your wife. You want to talk papers? They're signed. Done. Call my lawyer and she will tell you the same. Thanks for playing.