Okay, let me chime in here with my limited experience. I am going to tell you some things that you may or may not agree with, that's okay, it is meant only to make you think.

You see, you said in previous pages that you didn't want DS to have to see his father EVER AGAIN. You even said that TO your DS before. He KNOWS this and he is USING it. Children can manipulate things so THEY get what they want.

I will give you an example. My sister has 2 daughters, 8 and 6. I had my sons first. My XBIL and his mother don't like me(feeling is MUTUAL). They then didn't like my children. They would actually get MAD at my sister for doing anything for my children. They would actually say things to her like, "You LOVE nephew MORE than you love DD8" within earshot of my niece. What did she do? One night, after spending the day with my mom, she went to XBIL's mother's house. She told her Nana, "I am STARVING. Grandma gave my food to cousin and wouldn't let me eat anything. Nana, can I have some food please?" Well, XBIL's mother called my sister and SCREAMED at her. She DEMANDED that my children not be allowed near my nieces again. How could my mother be so cruel?

My sister called me that night and said, "Scotty, what did you do today?" I told her how I had taken the kids to the park, Blah blah blah. She said, "Did you go to mom's?" I said, "No, why?" then she told me. My children weren't even there that day. My niece just knew that her Nana would automatically take her side and there would be DRAMA.

I only wanted to show you how your DS could try to manipulate things to get his way.

I CRINGED when I saw what you wrote to your XWH. It is full of DJs. I know that you don't think that your WH is a good father. The thing is, he is your DSs father and there is nothing you can do to change that. You can NOT control what HE does and to suggest that he is incapable of taking care of his own son is a HUGE DJ. It was also an invitation to DRAMAVILLE all over again. When you get the urge to contact him, come on here instead. Write it out to US and then we will let you know which things you should say.

I did this A LOT when I first started Plan B. I found out that my WH left my sick DS10(9 at the time) home ALONE with OWD11 and I was FUMING. I wanted to send him a message about it and ream him out. How could he? BAD things could have happened. Well, the good folks here told me not to respond at all. I realized that it really wasn't worth it.

I have sent my DSx2 on their visits with WH sick. Even when they had a fever and were throwing up. WH could take care of them. He is their father afterall. Why should he get them only when they are healthy?

If your DS is sick, or bored when he goes to visit your XWH that is your XWH's problem. That is what is means to have a child. Tell your DS to tell your XWH that he is bored. You need to let your DS have the relationship with his father, not your XWH. It is up to them what that relationship will look like. It isn't up to you anymore.

I am NOT implying that you don't do ANYTHING always, what I am saying is that you would only communicate things that NEED to be communicated.

As far as the brownie thing went, did you read my episode on christmas day? DS7 brought home a piece of chocolate cake that OW made. I wanted to throw it in the garbage the instant it came into my house. I thought about how confused DS7 would be. So instead, I let him have it. He ate 1/2 of it and then said, "Mama, would you like the rest?" I looked at DS7 and said, "I would rather eat poison and die than eat anything OW made." then I threw it away. Things have come home since then and the kiddos say, "Don't worry Mommy, Daddy made/bought this." My boundary of nothing from OW in my house is understood. I felt bad for the words I used. I could have said something better. I got my point across and I explained myself very well.

Sorry about the lengthy post. I see a lot of my sister's sitch in yours. I am always telling her to go dark too. Don't let your DS use XWH to manipulate you. Show him a new you and you will see a new DS.

If DS is sick or cranky at XWH's house, how much FUN do you think they will have? Go dark, and you won't have to know. So have you got an IM yet? You should think about it.

Ok, Scotty your points are well taken. I know now that I shouldn't have sent him that email at all....mainly because it did open the door for dramaville. He was a very UNinvolved father before so it is hard for me to assume he will know what to do or figure it out. DJs? Am I suppose to care about that now?

Here is the part I don't understand about what you are saying though....I KNOW kids are capable of manipulation....my son is no exception....but what do you think he was trying to get out of ME by not going to his dad's?

Ds called me last night around 10 and he sounded better. I asked him if he felt better and he said he did. He said they were leaving for the lake first thing this morning. I asked with whom and he said, "With OW and OW's son." I said, 'well, have a good time. I love you.' He asked me if my friends were still over (I had a girls night at my house) and I said yes. He asked me to put the phone on speaker so he could talk to his dog...we did that for a bit and then he said he was going to bed. I thought I controlled myself very well.

Good news is I'm going to friends tomorrow afternoon to meet a man--a man who wants to meet me. So that is exciting and terrifying. I've also stayed very busy this entire weekend and will be the rest of the weekend and that helps A LOT.

Going to re-read your post again Scotty....Iknow it is full of good points...but please tell me to what end you think ds is manipulating me.

Well, to be absolutely honest, without knowing ALL details of what happens in your life, I can only guess. That guess would mainly be that there is a part of him that wants to please you. He may think that he needs to show you that he doesn't want to be around XWH so he could be on your "team." I KNOW that you love your son. I KNOW that will NEVER change. you have to remember, he doesn't know that. He sees that you and your XWH USED to love each other. You used to love each other so much that you got married and had him. Now, not so much(understatement of the YEAR right there).

I don't want you to worry about what your son is doing and for what reason. Just focus on the messages you are sending him about XWH. When I get angered about WH and OW, I simply explain to DSx2 that I am angry. That there are things that I think about and feelings that this sitch brings about and they are not good. That I will NOT act out on them but that it is normal to have those feelings. I am NOT okay with what they are doing. BUT, I make sure not to focus on it too much and I try to keep the messages that they see as edited versions of the real feelings I have. Believe me, I have wanted to say, "Why aren't you pi$$ed that your Dad didn't call because he was busy with OW? How can you even look at her face without screaming since she helped take your Daddy away from your life?" I don't though. They have to form their own feelings on these things but they are CLEAR on mine.

I know you don't care about DJing your WH, BUT by taking $LB away from your XWH, it means there is still a relationship there. I know that you will always have to deal with him in some way, he is your son's father, you don't have to have a relationship with him anymore.

Your XWH WILL pay for what he did to you one day, you don't have to be driving the karma bus for it to run him over. This is hurting you an feeding him. Go dark and see what happens to your life. Please. You need to do this for yourself and for your son.

Now, as far as the meeting goes, casual. You are GREAT. Don't sweat it.

Keep your conversations to a bare minimum and only deal in the facts. No assumptions. No judgements. No running commentaries. None. Your son needs consistency from both his parents. I know that you don't agree with this, BUT, his father was right to make him visit. He doesn't get many days with his father. Kids do pick sides. They need to know that both parents care enough to want to see them even when they are being pains in the butt or are sick. Your son may have been testing his father. The more consistent the visitation and the transfers, the smoother they will go - which is good for your son. Your son knows how much his father hurt you. He will likely be angry with his father for a very long time.

KEEP IT TO FIVE WORDS.....
KEEP IT TO FACTS ONLY.....
NO MORE BROWNIES ON LAWN...
BEHAVE FOR YOUR SON'S SAKE...

I hope you're getting my point about the five words.

Amen...well said Scottie. This was hard for me to do too, as I'm sure it is for most of us. But I had to accept that it is better for the kids to have A RELATIONSHIP with their father, no matter what he did than to not have a relationship with him at all. And you're right. To them he's their father, not my xWH.

I've been in a dark Plan B for over a year. Ran into xWH today with DD17 at the store. I could have ducked out before DD saw him, but decided to take the high road. I gave DD a chance to say hi few minutes and left. HE was the one who was left with the "awkward moment" feeling. Not me.

I guess I am having trouble thinking that any father is better than no father. He has tuned into his mother and I shutter to think of the damage that can be done to my son with parenting model.

Ds came home late at 6;15 (after him asking me if he could keep him late yesterday and I said no). I have been invited to friends house tomorrow and when ds found out he cried and cried because he can't go. So he called his dad and dad said no and ds hung up on him. XH sends me an email asking me to stop 'having ds ask to change the schedule. He said it just upsets ds an cause too much stress.' I replied that I wasn't 'having' ds do anything....and the upset wasn't in the asking it was in XH's refusal to let ds do things in his regular life.'

Maybe it would help you all understand my feelings and ds's feelings if you has a snapshot of our life before the separation. This morning ds and I would get up and attend religious services. XH would be asked to go but would say no. We would come home eat lunch...and remind XH about our invitation to friends house for a cookout---is he going? 2 times out of 50 he might go. More likey he would look u from his lap top and appear to consider it and then rub the top of his head and say, 'um, I would love to but I really need to finish this presentation. Or I need to go workout. Or I'm tired because I have a job.'

All of our life's actitivies were like that. He would be invited to go...didn't want to...and then ds and I would go off and live our life. We would often come back and he would be gone to the lake or golfing or whatever. So now, all those things in ds's very full life have been blocked everytime there is a visitation imposed upon him by a court of law to see a father who never cared to spend time with him before.

How do we deal with that?

Your son doesn't have "any" father. He has "his" father. You were married to this man for 26 years. He behaved abominably towards you and your son. Your son is only 10. Your routines must conform to your custody agreement. Your son has much more time with you. THINGS HAVE CHANGED. It isn't fair. It is what it is. The more consistent the rules and boundaries, the sooner your son (and you) will adjust. It will also remove the drama from this situation. If your son asks to change the schedule, you should tell him no. Your XH should tell him no. The sooner the parents can honor the schedule, the better for your son. It doesn't have to be this hard. You are making this harder than it has to be.

I have been through this with my own children from my first marriage and divorce. Being a whole family is much easier than being a divorced family. I know that it isn't easy.

If you can find a way to honor your custody agreement and be consistent with your son, HE WILL ADJUST. Life will become much easier.

I know that you don't want life to be easier for your XH and OW. You want to punish the ex and make him pay for what he has done to you. You are also making things very hard for your son though...

I also know that you want to date a nice emotionally healthy man. This kind of drama will turn most emotionally healthy men off. They will wonder how you will treat them down the road and they will run.

People attract people that are like them. Do you want to attract a self-righteous man that is focused on revenge and vindication? Or, do you want to attract a healthy, forgiving, kind man?

It is up to you.

I see 2 possible ways to attempt to avoid this scenario, which, with repetition, will become extremely tiresome to all of you: (a) don't plan activities for you during DS's "dad time" that are more attractive to DS than going to see his father; save them for when he's with you, or (b) go ahead and plan them, but don't tell DS what you'll be doing while he's gone ("I've got some things to do while you're with your dad. I'll be fine. You have a good time and I'll see you tomorrow.") Adults can be ambiguous about exactly what they'll be doing when their children aren't with them. I'm sure that's in the Parents' Bill of Rights somewhere!

tl

Why in the world do you allow all this crying? Followed up w/ all this drama?

Of course his father should say NO to that!

It is your responsibilty...your DUTY to make your son understand that he is OBLIGATED to honor his father and the court's wishes by visiting w/ his father at the set times.

An OBLIGATION means that crying and demanding that he go somewhere else is out of the question.



If you think that argument holds water, then go to the courts and ask that XWH's parental rights be revoked.

I think you KNOW how that would turn out.

You deal w/ it by ACCEPTING the REALITY of the situation. ACCEPTING that for some reason God has allowed all of this to happen.

The Bible says that "God...is THE BLESSED CONTROLLER of all things, the king over all kings and master of all masters."

God controls your life, SW. And He is a BLESSED controller. Contentment comes from accepting from God's hand what He sends b/c we know that He is good and therefore it is good.

Elisabeth Elliot said this, "I know of no greater simplifier for all life. Whatever happens is assigned. Does the intellect balk at that? Can we say that there are things that happen to us that do not belong to our lovingly assigned "portion" ("This belongs to it, that does not")? Are some things, then, out of control of the Almighty? Every assignment is measured and controlled for my eternal good. As I accept the given portion other options are canceled. Decisions become much more easier, directions clearer, and hense my heart becomes inexpressibly quieter. A quiet heart is content w/ what God gives."

SW,

thndrnltng offers some very good advice. To add to it, you might just avoid telling ds what you will be doing while he is with his father. You might just say that you have chores, and that you have "errands", but avoid telling him specific plans that might sound like fun to him if he asks you to tell him exactly what you will be doing. "Housework" is always a thing kids accept that moms do.

You asked what your XH meant by his email?
"I hope you get better as well. Incidents like the one on Wed. are not only uncalled for but are also damaging to ds.

If you think jerking a brownie out of his hand and throwing it on the ground hurts me you are mistaken. Even if it did, it surely does more to ds and you should be ashamed of yourself."

By "I hope you get better as well" he is implying that he sees you as having difficulties accepting what has happened, and that he thinks maybe your thinking has been affected. By pointing to the reaction of throwing the brownies on the ground, he is trying to tell you that this seems to him to be out of character for you - that he doesn't think he has seen it before, he feels it extreme from you, and it worried him. He points to it as a break in what would be your "usual" behavior, and says you must have been "feeling bad", because he wants to tell you that he thinks this is way out of line, and he also is pushing you hard on it - with an added point that this is now in writing, and he is documenting this incident.

The line "Even if it did" tells you that IT DID HURT HIM. First he denies that it hurt his feelings, but he does go ahead and confirm that it did with this phrase. However, the hurt is not quite exactly what you wanted it to be, SW.

You wanted a demonstration of your anger towards the OW, and to inflict pain at your XH as well.

The resulting message you got back was that your XH is somewhat worried that your emotional state has been very affected by his affair and the resulting divorce, and what he saw you do seemed to him to be out of character for you. Further, he tells you that he is concerned that this type of outburst is unhealthy for DS (he has his point here). While his message does have some self-serving meaning in it, there is also a truthfulness to his message that is in there. The tone that he carries in this email speaks two ways, and about fairly evenly: first, the self-serving way that would serve him later if he were to need it for a court issue, and second regarding a true concern for what the divorce is doing to you emotionally.

I do see both in this communication, and I believe that if he were to be interviewed, both motivations would be equally important to him. This man is torn over this incident. It hit him very hard.

There is a third issue for him that rides below the surface of the communication: embarrassment. The underlying tone of the letter is embarrassment, and it is as though he is admonishing you somewhat discreetly. I wondered if he did this kind of thing during your marriage, only in a different manner?


Your XH does like drama. He also does not like being on Plan B. You have to pull yourself back from him, and your best bet right now is the five word rule. Emotionally, and in the recovery process, you just are too raw for much contact with him. Impose the rule, even when you don't want to - use is ESPECIALLY when you think you MUST talk to him using more than five words. That is precisely the time that you MUST USE 5 WORDS. That is the time you are out of control, and the 5 words reduces mistakes on your part.

It also forces you to STOP and THINK. Which forces you to control yourself. That is the beauty of the rule.



Finally, regarding the relationship between DS and his dad?

You talk about what used to happen between the two of them while you were married, and the changes now that you are divorced. You ask why his dad wants to see him now, and didn't interact while you were married.

I wonder if perhaps your XH has begun to pull his head out of his butt with regards to what he has done in the past? It is not impossible, you know. Maybe one way to look at it is to consider that it is a good thing that your XH wants to see his son. There are so many deadbeat fathers who walk away, who never call, never even contact their children again. It is a blessing that your son has a dad who actually wants to see him, and who is at least giving this some effort.

Regardless of what you believe your XH's motivations to be, your role should never include being a wall between the two of them. That behavior cannot serve the good of your son, and in the end, could end up damaging your relationship with him as well.

The advice to stop the DJ's on your XH are the best thing on the thread. Stop.

Remember that men parent in the way that men do, because they offer what children need to learn from men. Women parent in their way, and it is different, because we are not men, and we offer our input to the learning of children. Both are not the same. They are not SUPPOSED to be the same, because boys and girls do not grow up to be the same - they grow up to be men and women, and as they grow they need different information from different genders to understand themselves and the world. Don't expect the dad to parent the way the mom does. Consider that part of the blessing of life.

Your son is blessed that his dad wants him in his life, and that despite a divorce and a completely messed up adult world, his dad is trying to do something to make things better for DS. Whatever that is, it IS better than having a father walk away and never look back.

SB

SW I feel for you I really do. I understand. My WH never went to services with us, and spent very little time with us when he wanted to do his own thing. I was the primary parent, I did majority of the work and he watched tv, played video games or went fishing with them. He abandoned them 3 times. He moved thousands of miles away twice for OWs. The 3rd OW, he refused to see the kids unless they would be around her. This made a 3 month standoff in which he won when my oldest finally gave in. Even now, we have no set schedule for visitation, he sees them when it is ok for him. He texts me with very little time. He is a royal pain. However, unless we had specific plans that were important, I have allowed him to see them. My oldest whines sometimes and I tell him look you only get to see your dad so many days, and I think its important.
They know how I feel, and they know the pain it causes. However I have come to the conclusion, let them figure out the rest. I think he will end up hurting them again, but he might not. He may end up being a great father when his head comes out of his behind. He is their only father though. My dad is very involved with them, and he has the spiritual standards that I want my kids raised with. I figure if he ends up alienating them, he will only have him in his life a few more years, I hope to have my kids forever.

Also, the anger, I UNDERSTAND. I have thought of doing awful things to get back at WH. In the end though, remember what todays study was about. It may be the thing that helps your XWH.

You chose this man to be a father to your child. Now he has the right to see the child. Maybe he feels like a "better father" with the OW then he did when he was married to you. Maybe there was something wrong with the dynamic between you and your husband from the beginning that you did not see and do not see clearly even now. If I were you I would examine that.

Are you mad because your husband with the OW turned into and is becoming....a better father now..... than he was with you, all these years, you who are the "real" mother of the boy???

Who knows?

I would be really pissed if my EX started becoming a good father after 10 years of being with me being a bad father.

I would be jealous, pissed, and resentful about that. "Why now?" I would ask.

I don't understand....helps my XWH? He has no knowledge of it. I did think all through that lesson this morning about how I need to apply that to myself and get over my anger toward XH. I realized I was shaking my foot up in down in agitation and my jaw was set....I glanced over at a friend who was looking at me and she smiled very knowingly...So good to have good friends.

I concur with you all who are saying that 'WH is our son's father and there is nothing to be done about that.' I do not believe AT ALL that he is suddenly a good father. I beleive it to be all for show and all to impress his OW. I also believe much of his communication is being written with her help. It doesn't sound like him. He is never that reasonable. Also he takes up to an hour or more to respond to any email I send him. However, none of that even matters...his motivation can't matter to me. The fact is a court of law says I have to send ds and that is that.

My son and I have a life that is very intertwined with our friends. He would have heard about me going to this cook out today.....I can't imagine keeping it from him. Also, half the time you guys tell me to just tell ds 'no you can't ask your dad if you can skip.' and the the other half I am hearing that I need to allow ds to have his own relationship with his father. Our decree has a specific line that says ds is allowed to call either parent at any time. So when ds says, 'I want to call dad to see if I can skip.' not only do I feel like I need to let him and his dad work it out, I also am obligated to let him call. So not sure how to.

And on a final note ds called him AGAIN on the way home from services and asked him AGAIN....XH is talking talking talking and then ds says, 'let me ask mom.' Son says, 'He says I can skip today if I can come Monday and Tuesday evening for 3 hours each. (that will be in addition to Wednesday). I said ok. That was good on both XH and my parts huh?

hmmmm,

your email hit a real nerve with XWH because it is truth on one level....
I've followed your threads for about 3? years now...think it was that long ago when came here

We both know back then that wayturd X of yours would have gladly used his son's sprain as an excuse to get out of spending any time with DS or you. Instead he would have trotted off to do his own thing w/o thinking twice. You, Smiley, were the one to take care of everything.

however, on another level, since you're D, XWH isn't forcing his son to be with him. From a legal perspective, that is DS and XWH's time together. From the moment XWH's visitation begins until the moment it ends, it is their right to spend that time together. From the court's perspective, nobody has the right to interfere with that because of the inherent nature of the parent child relationship.

So, legally, XWH didn't force DS to do anything. It is DS' time with his dad and to the courts, that's final.

Please be very careful with what you say to your XWH. What you said in your email could be used against you as a parental alienation.

Your XWH is letting you know that it's game on when he wrote that DS doesn't "understand your games". Those brownies were sent to get at you...not for DS and you bit the bait.

I've seen situations like this with other families. It's not pretty and usually causes the kids the most hurt.

Go very dark like we've recommended. Right now, you're empowering the antics of XWH and OW. It's those two against you. He's making you out to be crazy. Don't let him get to you anymore. You can't control anything that happens when your DS is on dad's time. That's the hardest thing to have to wrap your mind and heart around.

Do you have someone to talk to about your feelings? It really was unfair ..all that happened to you and DS...all of it. It may seem like XWH won when he was the one who did all the damage. But truly, he is so lacking in being *real*....it's all a superficial facade for him.

Don't you see how free you are now? Free of walking on eggshells, of always questioning and doubting yourself, of always putting yourself second to meet the EN's of a man who can't even be honest with himself? You're free....free to direct your life in the way it should go.

I understand and empathize that you have to deal with wayturd for DS. But listen, I promise you this, the best thing you can do is live your own morally straight, God fearing, God loving, full life. It's best for you and it's best for DS because he surely isn't going to see his dad living it.

Go dark, Smiley and live free!

He was very dismissive of me...always acting like I was crazy and unstable and over the top....Everything I did he acted like was the stupidest thing he'd ever seen. Are you saying my actions embarrassed him? Like he was embarrassed for me? I'm confused on that.

I want to respond more to your analysis....at first I balked, but I trust your insight so much I want to go over it and be honest with myself. For now I am headed out the door to meet a man at my friend's cookout. A casual get together for the purpose of us meeting...:)

Thanks all.

Oh, goodness, there are more posts since I began my perspective of the email exchange.

For what it's worth...Smiley's XWH isn't becoming a better father. He doesn't even know what a good father is because he didn't have that type of role model in his life. (And as a thought here...Smiley didn't either....)

I think with the XWH, he has replaced Smiley with the OW. The OW is now in the caregiver role. DS dad doesn't spend those 30 hours alone with his son. Instead, OW is there. That's very telling. 30 hours of a month and he can't spend it alone, one on one with his DS. Instead, DS has to share it not only with OW, but with her *son* too. That's not someone wanting to build an intimate father-son relationship in the wake of the changes from D.

It's all superficial. The XWH likely isn't able to have a true, emotionally intimate relationship. It didn't exist in his family of origin and he doesn't have any issue in living his life w/o it.

I agree he is not becoming a better father. He is a turd. He most likely always will be. However, he is his father. He is the only thing that her son has as a fleshly father. He will either keep him in the father role, or possibly replace him with someone he feels is more father like. It is up to him to do so. I am not sure about her state, but in FL, the way the law is set up that a child can not choose to go or not till they are 15, and if one parent "keeps" the child from them, they will reopen the custody agreement and favor the "injured" party. SW ex, is someone I would see this out of spite. He is a stinky father and will probably grow tired of the show soon. Eventually, he will be the one that calls and asks to cancel. The fight though, will keep him taking him just from spite.

However, if he ends up being a better father, isnt that better for everyone?

SW you asked "I don't understand....helps my XWH?"
I meant your example might in the long run help your XWH.

If he starts protesting about "having" to see his father, you cut him off. You say, "Son, there's no point to your complaining about this. B/c this is your scheduled time w/ your dad." Period.

If you do this effectively, he won't think of picking up the phone to demand that his dad change his visitation times.


I think it would be best to keep to your court ordered schedule, and not change it unless there is a VERY good reason...and only if you and WXH agree to it w/o DS's involvement.

Letting your son manipulate the schedule based upon which parent has the more exciting plans that day is foolish.

Maybe I can make an uneducated observation here:

1. All three of you are good at manipulations.
2. The father is a manipulator/game player.
3. The mother, SW is a good manipulator/drama queen/game player.
4. Now the son is starting to (learn to) manipulate the other two

Where will this manipulation and game playing stop? It continues on and on and on and on. With all three parties.