it's screwing up our communication.......i can not keep my taker down long enough to communicate w/ my H the way he needs me to.
i try....i keep thinking he understood me....then he says something and i realize he didn't and it throws me.......and i'm having a very difficult time here.
and i am picking up that when i react, he is feeling like...he just can't do anything right,so why bother trying anymore. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

i know this is about me...and i need to change something.
or atleast get calm enough to communicate more effectively......any suggestions?

it feels like i am regressing.......being selfish.
does anybody ever feel they get stuck there??
what do you do to break thru?

<small>[ January 24, 2004, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

padlock???

I don't know - I'm having a bit of trouble with that these days too...

Maybe I'm just particularly needy this week...

Nelly - I think there are just times when we all have this need to be takers and it gets in the way of the 'other stuff'.

Not sure --- guess this isn't advice. Maybe just I understand your point???

Hugs,

Jan

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nelly:
and i am picking up that when i react, he is feeling like...he just can't do anything right,so why bother trying anymore. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

i know this is about me...and i need to change something.
or atleast get calm enough to communicate more effectively......any suggestions?

I might just be "full of it".... but, here are my thoughts.

When Pepper has been overpowered by her "taker" .... it is usually one or two reasons:

1. I am allowing my "child" to steer the boat. I feel powerless and needy, and therefore whiney. I might as well stomp my foot and hold my breath to get my needs met ..... the taker can be a childish emotional regression.

2. I am allowing my "parent" to steer the boat. I know better than "you" what is right. And since I have all this superiority, I can only pity your paltry opinion.

~~~~~~~~

I find that when my "adult" steers the boat, my taker is not desperate to be "right" or to be "breast fed" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Sometimes .... we weave in and out of our personality positions with such fluidity that it is difficult to recognize just which "voice" we are using with our taker.

Anywho...... this works for me.

Take what you like and leave the rest! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

thanks jan and pepper.


pep, when i read your description of the child..i though, yeah, that fits. and then the read the parent and i though....that kinda fits too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

one thing is for sure......i am feeling needy....and i think my husband is too...and i want to be there for him but the child and the parent keep taking turns over my body.
split personality maybe?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

then the insecurities creep in and i want to take an honest look at myself and i am afraid i am looking at what my H used to always accused me of being..... needy, emotional and obssesive.
and how unnatractive is that??

he is going thru a difficult time and he tells me he loves me asks me to "BE THERE" for him.........and i want to be.....but,something feels amiss. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
i feel like he needs me to make it all about him..........but, I HAVE NEEDS TOO!!

and i have told him that....i have tried to be patient....but, he doesn't see it that way.......

gosh, i'm just rambling now.
i must really need someone to talk to......thanks for listening.

<small>[ January 24, 2004, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

H always accused of being..... needy, emotional and obssesive.
and how unnatractive is that??

The use of the word "always" is a good indicator that your adult is not in control.

What are you afraid of?

Pep

hmmmm...i guess i am afraid that i AM needy, emotional and obsessive.

that's what i was trying to say. yeah, maybe i am afraid that my child is in the way here.....so, how do YOU take your life back when that happens?

interesting that you picked up on that ALWAYS....i meant to say..... used to always.....past tense.....i did go back and edit it. does not make much difference either way, though, does it?
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> i need to get a grip.
or maybe a psychiatrist. any armchair shrinks out there??

<small>[ January 24, 2004, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nelly:
hmmmm...i guess i am afraid that i AM needy, emotional and obsessive.

Are you relying on someone else to define who you are?

You have a choice here.

You can be whatever person you decide you'd like to be.

It takes careful observation of ones'self (not relying on what someone else says)

A strong gulp of humility

And a willingness to try something that might be scary for you

Pep

how did i let that happen..
i am relying on someone else here.......that's a good point. i'll have to think about how to stop that now.

thanks.

<small>[ January 24, 2004, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

Pepperband,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The use of the word "always" is a good indicator that your adult is not in control. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is very good.
I will "alway's" have to remember that, and learn to look between the piont's, not directly at them.

Because it is true, it cannot always be always.

nelly,

As far as your taker?
I know mine is in full swing, I am not asking my W for anything, though.
Only that she hold's up her end of the deal with the change's that are happening.(so far so good, she has actually amazed me).

Try to stay focused on yourself, and do something for yourself. If it is something your H has to do, calmdown, regroup, recommunicate so there is no misunderstanding.

Nelly,

can you give us a for instance that he is needing you to be 'for' him when you are wanting to be
'against' him??

What type of a situation is it?

is it something that you consider to be a power struggle? like if you compromise and do this it will give him more POWER and CONTROL over you?

as that is typically when a taker comes out--when we feel something is going to be out of OUR control--

So what is it you feel you are going to lose by compromising in some way and being 'for' your husband instead of against him?

<small>[ January 24, 2004, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: ThornedRose ]</small>

this is weird, TR.

i have been trying to pinpoint it and i think maybe i just need to get a life of my own sometimes.

it is not a power struggle and i am not unwilling to compromise on anything.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

i'll try to explain the situation as best i can...

right now, i think it's about sex.
i think i am sexually frustrated and i feel high strung and snappy.

he is stressed because of job related issues......has been for a couple of weeks. He says he needs me to be there for him and understand that he is feeling sensitive.
i am good for a couple of days....standing by patiently and waiting for him to approach me to reconnect...intimately.
finally he does and i felt like we were back on track.....but then he 'goes away" again for a few days and rejects my sexual advances......he's too stressed, i guess.
i start to feel resentment from our past....and i LB...
so, he is even more distant w/ me....and i get more testy.
then i apologize and try to be patient........ i want to be there for him..... but i feel resentment. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

and it feels like we just keep going around in circles.

what do you read??

<small>[ January 24, 2004, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

nelly,

From what your saying--it's not just about sex--
that may be part of it--but not all of it--

--i have been trying to pinpoint it and i think maybe i just need to get a life of my own sometimes.--

TR--How so, your own friends? your own interests?
things that don't totally revolve around your husband and family??

--right now, i think it's about sex.
i think i am sexually frustrated and i feel high strung and snappy.--

TR--This is your need--and a legitimate one--but why get high strung and snappy? what can you do to work on expressing your emotions past the frustration? without LBing--

-- He says he needs me to be there for him and understand that he is feeling sensitive.

TR--In what way does he need you to be there for him?? Physically? emotionally? Specifically?

Have you asked him how he see's you being for him?
if he could put it into word to form a picture--
what would it look like?


--I am good for a couple of days....standing by patiently and waiting for him to approach me to reconnect...intimately.--

TR--Okay, so why are you waiting for him to approach you when you 1. know he's stressed, and 2. your the one who needs to feel that emotional connection?

I doubt your going to like what I am about to say here---but I think you need to consider the truths concerning this-- just by your actions in this area alone--

Contrary to what you said on the other thread--you are waiting on HIM to take the lead--deep down
you don't want to be the leader--Your wanting him to take responsiblity and come to you taking the lead in this situation--correct?? and your getting frustrated that he isn't--(why do you think that is?)


--finally he does and i felt like we were back on track..

TR---He takes the lead and your back on track--
he get's scared of taking the lead and backs off--

--but then he 'goes away" again for a few days and rejects my sexual advances......he's too stressed, i guess.--

TR--He goes away how??

What types of things are going on at work? is he in a supervisory type position by any chance?

--I start to feel resentment from our past....

TR--Why do you feel resentment about the past? are there issues that have yet to be resolved concerning some of those things??


--and I LB...

TR--Something you need to work on--why type of things are you LBing about?? really look at those-
and figure out what is causing you to lash out--


--so, he is even more distant w/ me....

TR--I understand--If the things your LBing about concern the past--I would pull away too--

It's like being judged and condemned for things you can't change--yet want to be and feel forgiven for--


--and i get more testy.

TR--Again, something you need to work on--why do you get testy?? what about emotions can't you control

--then i apologize and try to be patient.....

TR--Keep working on this patience thing--it's a virtue <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> and to be honest--the only way to learn to be patient--is by going through these types of situations--

--for him but i feel resentment.

TR--What do you feel resentment over??

--and it feels like we just keep going around in circles.

TR--Because you are--

---what do you read??

hmmmm---I could say...I read the Bible--but I know that's not what your really asking <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

But I see it as your really wanting HIM to take the lead--and when he does--you feel emotionally closer to him---but the stresses from the world seem to be getting in the way--of his continuing--

So again ask him--how can 'show' him that you support him?? How can you encourage him the most
so that when he comes home--he can feel peaceful
and relaxed?? and want to spend more time w/ you--

<small>[ January 25, 2004, 06:38 AM: Message edited by: ThornedRose ]</small>

hi TR,
thanks for answering, sorry i didn't get back here sooner.

as far as me getting a life......i am an SAHM right now, living in any area that we have never really settled in....we have been talking about relocating for 4 years now. it's tough to commit to anything when you feel like you know you will be moving on soon.
the last 2 years have been filled w/ trying to better our relationship inbetween the kids lifes.
plus, there is a 2 year old who keeps me very busy. but, no real interests of my own just now, so sometimes i do feel overwhelmed and bored at the same time.

i understand that sex was just part of it, it just happened to be a big part of it, when i last posted. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

you said contrary to what i said on the other thread........what thread was that?
you said that
that i want him to lead.
if you mean initate......we have been thru this time and again. he wants me to iniate sometimes. it's very easy for me to iniate sometimes....when we are close.. but, when he is stressed, he has told me it makes him feel pressured.
and i don't want to pressure him. that just stresses him out more. so, i wait for him. i have made my feelings known to him.......that i am very open to the idea of sex and reconnecting....
and i want more than just sex, i want the emotional connection too....and he is so pre-occupied, he has disconnected.
an old habit of his.

we do have a communication problem.....we are much better then we used to be, but it is a work in progress. i will gladly listen to all the advice i can get.

He asked me to be patient and be there for him.
yes, i asked him exactly what he meant by that.
his picure,
he is in sales,stressed because of possible cut backs, and has been looking for a new job for awhile now. He needs time to process the situation and he wants me near him..in the house..not too far..if he wants to talk about, he wants me to LISTEN to him.( i have a bad habit of jumping in w/ my own ideas and comments.....he hates that at times like this)
if he wants me to be available to him for affection, which is great, but does not always mean sex.....and i have to fight off feelings of rejection.
at times like this, he feels it's all about him and he needs space.
he wants me to understand this and be atient.
i can be patient for a day or maybe 2......then it gets really tough.
and that's when our communication breaks dowm.

he disconnects.he goes to his "cave."
he's always done that. he used to leave the house and never talk to me about it. it was his way of dealing w/ his stress. he didn't want me to be a part of it.
so, yes, we have made progress.
atleast he stays home w/ me...

you are correct, we do have unresolved issues.
but, they have been put on a backburner, at his request. he will talk to me about them when he is ready.

i know if i can figure out how to be more patient and wait for him to approach me and iniate some deep conversation @ the unresolved issues and other intimate, persoanl topics, i will be thrilled.
problem is.....couple days go by and he's just inching out of his cave....and i want to talk about these things, and i end up pushing him back in the cave.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

and, by the way....i did the Bible yesterday morning <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> and church felt wonderfully spiritual for both of us yesterday....and we had a lovely day and afternoon together.
but,
i last night, i went and did it again.......i brought up a subject that he didn't want to talk about.
i asked him some personal questions that he didn't want to go near. i honestly thought we had restored enough intimacy that he would be receptive to my needs for H/o and conversation..
and he reacted. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
and then i reacted right back. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
he's away now for a couple of days....he has a job interview.
maybe it's the best thing for us.

<small>[ January 26, 2004, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

hi nelly...

You wrote that something went amuck last night when you brought up a subject that he didn't want to talk about.

My H also doesn't like to talk about anything tough, but often it's the stuff that I need the most to resolve/talk about. If it were up to him issues would just lie there and fester for months
rather than be confronted.

I'm not sure if I'd call what you're talking about your "taker". I think it's mainly a problem with him not hearing what youre saying, or not getting the main points.

For what it's worth...I have to be careful to be really, really specific with my H. I mean ridiculously specific. Therefore, if I have a bone to pick with him, I first need to calmly sit with myself and ask myself what REALLY bothered me about the situation. Do you know what I mean?
Like if we have 20 bucks left in the checkbook and he spends it on going out to lunch with the guys, I need to see which battle I want to fight...the "why didn't you include me" battle or the "fiscal responsibility" battle. Because if I try to fight BOTH at the same time (which I could do in discussions with some people, but not my H),
he wouldn't hear EITHER. One at the time is how I have to do things.

that probably doesn't help. But I've been where you are.

jo

that does help, jo.


he has complained about that w/ me. i ask too may questions at once....i combine the issues.....and that confuses him.
and then he gets upset and reacts and vice versa.
i do need to be patient and remember my conversation/communication skills.
he has asked me to be very specific w/ him in the past.


i feel like my mind has gone blank or something.
i want some affirmation from him so much right now, and he refuses.......maybe because he doesn't understand what saying?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

i feel stressed from all the emotion i've put into this right now and i know that he is pre-occupied w/ the job issue.

any suggestions on how i regroup and remember how to approach him?

You do NOT lock up your Taker. That hardly ever works.

You lock up your LBs. That almost always helps.

The key is to learn how to negotiate with your Taker without indulging in LBs. Now THAT is hard. I have not learned how to do it well. But that is the essential skill for a happier marriage. Asking for what you REALLY want (without any self-censoring) in a way that does not bother your spouse. Even when it won't be easy to provide you with what you really want.

And I think that is where alot of us "nice" people who have trouble reining in our Givers have a problem. We don't relish asking for things that will be difficult for our spouse to provide. We are sympathetic. We dislike asking for them to undertake large burdens just to meet one of our needs.

But that is the essence of being married. And if you don't ask for your own needs to be met in a pleasant way, eventually you will build up so much anger and hurt and resentment that you will ask - but in a very unpleasant way.

So the task at hand is not to lock up your Taker so he never gets what he wants. Eventually he'll break out of whatever cage you put him in. The better plan is to teach your Taker more effective means of asking for what he wants. So that he gets more of what he needs. So he doesn't throw so many temper tantrums.

oh Nelly I wish I was better at this, I'd use it in my own M, too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

What I've been trying to do is to bring up only one discussion idea at a time with him. And to be really Really REALLY clear about what I want to say to H about it. And to stick to that. This also includes sticking to the ONE thing even if H tries to throw the discussion off by getting defensive or OT.

Me: "We need to talk about spending that last 20 bucks with your buddies:

Him: "What's the big deal? You drank the last bottle of orange juice and didn't even buy more"

Me: <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> "Yes. And we can talk about that but right now, I need to talk about that lunch"

or something like that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

jo

Holding...are you still out there??

i think you have got me pretty well pegged.
any suggestions on how to control myself and get a grip and not react and LB??

also.want to ask you about the whole job issue. i figured you could relate and you speek my language better than my H does. so can you help me?
as a man and the main provider.....i know he is preoccupied w/ that. he has told me so. and that he know he will be untill he finds a new job.
and that i need to understand that and be patient.

but, he's very cold and matter of fact about it when he talks to me.
i need some details..tell me what you are feeling, so i can better relate and do what you really need.

he has told me he feels like he is regressing to his old self and he feels he needs to that right now......to focus on getting a new job.

me, being me.....i keep thinking.....you should be able to talk to me about what is really bothering you and i should be able to make you feel better and you can gain strength from that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

i try not to take it personally. but it sure feels like he is pushing me away. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
he has said that he does not need to think about his weeknesses right now, but be strong and move forward.
but, he says he wants and needs me there and is still affectionate.
like i said, that is better than when he used to take off for the whole day. but, i still feel rejected and that's getting to me. i don't handle rejection very well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

anyway, he is away for a few days.....any suggestions on how i can regroup and be nice and communicate productively?
and not let my taker act like a spoiled attention starved child when he returns and wants to talk all about his trip?

<small>[ January 26, 2004, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

nelly,

Something you can do is remind yourself at these times--it's NOT about ME--it's about his need to figure things out on his own--

He's a capable man and He is trusting God to lead Him--

So the issue could be your learning to lean on God--and trust that He has things under control--
even when you aren't sure what He's doing--and how He is working--

Maybe say something to your husband--I know your really stressed right now--and I want to be here for you--but at the same time I realize your needing to figure some things out inside--is there anything specifically I can pray for you about? or can we sit down and pray together?

this will help me know I am helping you in some way--and not feeling left out and rejected when your needing time to think--

Have you read the book Power of a Praying Wife?
if not--do so--and if so--re-read it--and work from that angle--and also if you haven't read Power of a Praying Husband--read that one too--then you can pray for yourself in a way you really need encouragement--

And as far as you getting out and doing things--it doesn't matter if your going to be there 2 or 4 years--you need that friendship base--for your own sanity--and support system--

Is there a womans bible study group you can get involved with at your church? If so call them and see about getting involved--even if it is for just a short time--it will help you find that balance your needing in your life--

Or have you considered seeing if there is a Mothers of Pre-schooler's (MOPS) group in your area?? I've known some women here who were involved w/ them--and they loved the support group
they had activities for the kids while the mom's visited and prayed together--

So maybe that is something you could consider for yourself--here's a weblink--

http://www.gospelcom.net/mops/

Check it out and see if it's something that you could get involved with--to work on finding balance in your life--and something for the little one's as well--get you out of the house once a week and have that interaction w/ other adult women--

<small>[ January 26, 2004, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: ThornedRose ]</small>

I do understand where both of you are coming from. I do NOT know how to bridge that gap. I am not sure that there is anything that can in the short term.

What is needed is learning new relationship skills. And that takes time. But the job hunt cannot be put on hold while those skills are acquired. So part of me thinks that your husband is correct.

Right now. Today. You may well have to choose between a husband who is a good marriage partner and a husband who is a good provider. Someday he may learn how to do both. But right now if he focuses his energy on those skills, talents, abilities and attitude toward work, he won't have any energy left to work on the relationship.

In fact, for me, working on the relationship REDUCES the amount of energy and enthusiasm I have for work.

It may not seem to you that it MUST be that way. You may not understand why turning one's work skills "on" means turning one's relationship skills "off". But as a male, it feels that way to me too. The way it feels to your husband.

You may think that working on the relationship will HELP him perform better at work. Sorry but for many men, while the relationship is in bad shape, the relationship subtracts from work. Only after the relationship is improved does it make work easier. So if he wants to get a new job NOW, not months from now after the relationship is better, he may well be tempted to forget about the relationship and focus only on work.

Let me see if I can make an analogy that might help. Think of your husband as a machine. With big metal parts. Including big metal parts with lots of wires and connectors that run his emotions and behaviors.

Now assume that he has two "emotion and behavior units" (EABUs) on his workbench. One EABU optimized for work. One that is optimized for home. It takes hours to remove one EABU and insert the other. And for the first few hours after an EABU is inserted, it only functions at 50% efficiency while various inventory and self-assessment routines are performed.

So your husband is saying "I want to leave in the work EABU all the time. I need to be at peak work performance at all times to maximize my chances to get a new job. I can't afford to keep switching between my work and home EABUs, and suffer the loss of functionality."

Now, you might say it would be better if he could figure out a way to switch between the EABUs faster. Or get an external testing unit which permits each EABU to function at 100% as soon as it is inserted. Or build a new EABU that functions sufficiently well both at work and at home.

Those are good ideas. In the long run, both of you might be better off if he sacrifices short run work functionality for long run effectiveness in both arenas.

But that is a choice that must be made using POJA. You can't force him to want to sacrifice short term to gain long term.

And I think my analogy is not far from the way many men operate. They have a set of behaviors and attitudes that work fairly well at work. Those behaviors don't work so well at home. Many men have trouble switching between them. So if pressured and stressed in both areas, they tend to stay in one mode all the time so at least ONE area will work itself out.

Yes, it would be great for us to learn a single set of behaviors that would perform well in both areas. Or to learn to switch gears faster. But learning will take time. If we want short term results at work, those of us with this problem may well be forced to make unpleasant choices.

One way you can help is to understand that he truly is faced with the choice he feels inside. Sharing with you does NOT help him. It does NOT make him feel stronger and better able to take on the world. He may wish it would. He may desire to change so that in the future it does. But right now it doesn't.

Making him feel bad for being who he is. For the fact that he has to make a choice you wish (and perhaps he wishes) he didn't have to make. Doesn't help him make the choice. And certainly doesn't increase the odds that he will choose NOT to go into work mode 24/7.