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I really appreciate all the feedback I've been given. I really like the ideas regarding using MB philosophy in regards to realizing that my wife's expectations are an accurate portrayal of how she feels and that whether or not I agree with those expectations if I want to remain married to her, and more importantly remain happily married to her, I need to figure out how to meet her expectations or at least satisfy her in how she sees my efforts to meet those needs.

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My understanding of meeting needs is that the couple should look at it as a "team" approach. In any sports team at any given time a specific member or members may be givng more...ie a goalie when the other team's offense is outstanding. In order to assure that goals aren't scored, the goalie must really put himself out there during the times the ball is nearby. If the ball is always being shot at goal, then the team needs to reconfigure and come up with a plan because the current one isn't working and the goalie is getting tired. It isn't just the the goalie's problem and it isn't any one person's fault.

IRL, if your family needs more income to be comfortable for all included then the "team" needs to change it's approach. That doesn't translate into you taking on your dad. It does however, mean you need to discuss what is needed and ways to get there.

I am dealing with this now, where hurt feelings tend to cloud judgements and we get defensive when something is changed. In a team, players are hurt or angry when they are moved or removed but if they are truly team players, they realize the benefit and cheer from the sidelines.

Recognizing her need as a valid one could go a long way.

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Some of the replies to this have been appalling!! I see no reason to think this wife is abusive or values people over things. To use Bubble's scenario...it's more like a husband wanting anal sex because his wife is having anal sex with someone else, so shouldn't he get some? Seriously, ridiculous. I didn't see anything about the poster working himself to the bone while his wife sits on her throne and complains. THAT was not in his post. There was a lot in his post that totally seemed like valid stuff for his wife to be upset about. I don't even see where she is asking him to WORK MORE!!! Just get paid fairly for what he is already doing. That's abusive?? Wow.

All the time a spouse is at work is time that they are filling only one need for their spouse: FS. You can't fill any other needs while you work. You CAN get a lot of your own needs filled when you work. You can get admiration, conversation etc. What I gather is that Broom is working for less than he deserves because of family dynamics. (Is he getting admiration from his Father or other family members for working so hard?? hmmm) Broom's father and FOO is getting more FS from Broom because they are paying him less than they could or should. (Broom alluded to the fact that he has some reason to let things be this way) He is taking time and money away from his own family. Now, some wives might be okay with that. I don't know many...but whatever, doesn't matter. His wife isn't okay with it. Broom was blaming it on her need for nice things. BUT are we sure she isn't just frustrated that she could have nicer things IF her husband was getting his fair share for work he is doing? Work that, I assume, takes him away from his family? If a spouse is making less money than he should in order to keep other people happy...that does not make for a happy marriage and it doesn't have all that much to do with wanting to drive a nice car.

Broom-in your post you describe you and your wife as "comfortably middle class" and you parents as "upper middle class" so your parents are doing better in the FS department than you guys, right? Also, your sister is getting FS from the family business now or in the future and she doesn't actually do any work? These are really tricky dynamics and your wife doesn't have to be bad in any way to be upset by them. Your FOO doesn't have to be bad for these to dynamics to be in place. I think this situation is pretty commonplace. I am not surprised that most your fights are about this topic...

Broom, I read your update. It sounds like you are on the right track. If you can truly have an honest conversation with your wife you may be surprised at what you guys can come up with. It's a good sign that you didn't come back and get defensive smile


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Originally Posted by Broom
I really appreciate all the feedback I've been given. I really like the ideas regarding using MB philosophy in regards to realizing that my wife's expectations are an accurate portrayal of how she feels and that whether or not I agree with those expectations if I want to remain married to her, and more importantly remain happily married to her, I need to figure out how to meet her expectations or at least satisfy her in how she sees my efforts to meet those needs.


Exactly, Broom! This is the heart of Marriage Builders.

Just realize that this program is a whole system. The parts interlock to create a whole. So you need to work on this need, and ensure that you avoid Love Busters. You need to be Radically Honest about your thoughts and feelings. You also must be making it a goal to hit a minimum of 15 hours of Undivided attention time together.

All this together creates a loving, caring environment where you can actually HAVE the conversation you need to have. You gotta kinda work on a little bit of all of it at once.

It takes time, and patience, and care, but you can get there!


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Just get paid fairly for what he is already doing. That's abusive?? Wow.

Where do you get that?

He said My problem with this is that she wants me to have a major confrontation with my father over the business, get him out of it, and then proceed with us as the sole owners.

There are 3 people that have an interest in this business and she wants him to get the others out so that he is sole owner.

I see that as manipulative and hostile...which constitutes abuse in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by committedandlovi
Quote
Just get paid fairly for what he is already doing. That's abusive?? Wow.

Where do you get that?

He said My problem with this is that she wants me to have a major confrontation with my father over the business, get him out of it, and then proceed with us as the sole owners.

There are 3 people that have an interest in this business and she wants him to get the others out so that he is sole owner.

I see that as manipulative and hostile...which constitutes abuse in my opinion.

committed

I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt and assume that she doesn't know how to state what she needs. I'm telling you, Broom, to my ear this whole thing sounds like your wife wants a husband who is THE MAN. Not such a bad thing to want. Big, powerful men are tres sexy!

I don't know much about your personality, so I'll ask you: are you a peace-keeper, conflict-avoider type? If you are, that could be the actual 'problem' in your marriage, that your W has lost respect for you in small increments over the years when she sees you back down (or just not stand up) and that could be why she encourages you to have a knock-down with your father. The lack-of-respect bucket is full and she wants it dumped all at once.

You can turn that around without turning into a jerk or getting into big conflicts. I won't go on, in case I'm way off.

Anyway...have you two done the ENQ, LBQ, and the other financial inventory I linked earlier? It sounds like your wife is fully out of withdrawal, is that your assessment? Will she do these with you?


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Originally Posted by wannatry
Broom-in your post you describe you and your wife as "comfortably middle class" and you parents as "upper middle class" so your parents are doing better in the FS department than you guys, right? Also, your sister is getting FS from the family business now or in the future and she doesn't actually do any work? These are really tricky dynamics and your wife doesn't have to be bad in any way to be upset by them. Your FOO doesn't have to be bad for these to dynamics to be in place. I think this situation is pretty commonplace. I am not surprised that most your fights are about this topic...


Yours was a very insightful post. Much of what you've said is dead on and much of the dynamic is due to how my wife perceives my father and extended family gaining from my work. While I don't totally agree with my wife's perceptions there is a lot of truth to them. I'm sure this is a common dynamic in family businesses.

Most of the conflict in my marriage has been the result of my refusing to validate my wife's need for FS and to address it in a way that satisfied her expectations. I felt her need was excessive and the way I dealt with her created a huge amount of turmoil in the marriage. I justified my position by believing I was doing as much as I could and that our situation was good and slowly getting better. That's all well and good but as we know from MB my wife's perception is what matters when it comes to making her happy or at least satisfied with my efforts. I've learned through MB and through experience that you've got to work with other people's perceptions, especially in such an intimate relationship as marriage. I am trying.

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She wants that, because she feels it is the only way to get the financial support she needs.

She, obviously, feels her husband is being treated unfairly and is not standing up for himself.

She wants her need met and only sees one way to get it, this is because she hasn't brainstormed. She is wanting to take extreme measures because she is probably at the limit of what she can take as far as this need not being met.

She is probably at this extreme because she feels no one is on her side - even anonymous people she doesn't even know are condemning her on only a few hundred words of her husband's side of the story.

Yes, people can be abusive, and it is important to stop abuse. But the abuse label gets thrown around too easily sometimes.


Is there any evidence, in anything Broom has stated, that full implementation of MB WON'T fix the problem? Any reason at all to believe that if proper care and consideration were shown, if her husband truly sought to devise a plan (not actually meet, but just come up with a plan of actions to meet her need) that she wouldn't be responsive to this? That she wouldn't be capable of productive negotiation?

Why are we throwing her under the bus before she's even been given the chance? Why are we focusing on her when Broom is the one that needs help? How does saying she is a horrible person (when there is arguably little evidence that makes THAT observation an open and shut case) help Broom in ANY way?

Those of you calling his wife abusive and manipulative and flawed (though aren't we all) what is your advice to Broom? Serious MB advice? That he leave, without even trying? That he say "sorry not gonna even try to find a way to meet this need" (when all avenues of resolution haven't even come close to being pursued) then watch his marriage erode?


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Broom, I don't have specific FS advice. But one of the cornerstones of MB is that every....EVERY need is equally valid. So what that means is, like V said, if FS is an EN then a spouse works like the dickens to meet it...period. If an EN is SF then the spouse works like the dickens to meet it....period. Same with DS, Conversation, etc. When we take one EN out of the mix and say, "well THIS one is different...." Then ALL of MB starts to crumble.

All ten are all equal, or the rest doesn't stand. And yes, I admit to saying that with my own EN's in mind too. There is no nice sounding "reason" for not consistently trying to meet any of them.

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Originally Posted by CWMII
don't know much about your personality, so I'll ask you: are you a peace-keeper, conflict-avoider type? If you are, that could be the actual 'problem' in your marriage, that your W has lost respect for you in small increments over the years when she sees you back down (or just not stand up) and that could be why she encourages you to have a knock-down with your father. The lack-of-respect bucket is full and she wants it dumped all at once.


As a child of divorce I am most definitely the conflict avoident peace-keeper of the family. And you're right she's had just about enough of that. If you go back and check out some of my history here you'll see where she had withdrawn from me before, but we did make it through that period to become reunited again, but as I've said in this thread the same threat exists and continues to put a strain on our relationship.

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Broom how are you doing in other elements of MB?

How is your Radical Honesty? Are you completely Open with your thoughts, feelings, expectations, dreams for the future, view of the present?

How are you doing on Love Busters?

How are you doing on UA time?

From your more recent posts, I think this is less about a dollar amount of money, but needing to see in you a man that is confident, strong, and willing to put his immediate family's needs above catering to his extended family. Someone that will speak up and demonstrate some ambition.

She is probably seeing you as a bit of a doormat. No woman want's to be married to a doormat.

It may be less: I need so much money; and more: I need a man who believes enough in himself and values me and his family enough to have courage to get his fair share.

Making your wife 'suffer' in order to keep peace in your family of origin communicates the idea that your birth family is more important to you than your wife and children.

Now I am not advocating burning bridges, but would it be reasonable for you to approach your father and request more compensation, in possible trade for increased responsibility? Would it be possible for you to go to your father and begin talking about what the transition of power in this company will look like and what the time table for that is? Even if it is a few years out.


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Originally Posted by Broom
Originally Posted by CWMII
don't know much about your personality, so I'll ask you: are you a peace-keeper, conflict-avoider type? If you are, that could be the actual 'problem' in your marriage, that your W has lost respect for you in small increments over the years when she sees you back down (or just not stand up) and that could be why she encourages you to have a knock-down with your father. The lack-of-respect bucket is full and she wants it dumped all at once.


As a child of divorce I am most definitely the conflict avoident peace-keeper of the family. And you're right she's had just about enough of that. If you go back and check out some of my history here you'll see where she had withdrawn from me before, but we did make it through that period to become reunited again, but as I've said in this thread the same threat exists and continues to put a strain on our relationship.

Okay. My H and I have been through this, where I practically hated him for the way he appeared to just lay down for everyone else and it frustrated me that I didn't get the same treatment, but more than that it frustrated me that he essentially forced ME to lay down with him, against my will.

Do you want me to share some small things that have made a huge difference to me in how I see him? Everyone is different, so I don't know if the things that turned my head will turn your wife's, but I figure it's worth a shot. smile


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Anything either of you have to add would be greatly appreciated. I think you two have a pretty good grasp of the situation.

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For me, every time he considered my feelings ABOVE ANYONE ELSE'S, it made a huge impact on my LB$. Very simple things, like complaining to a waiter if I'd mentioned something amiss to him. Or saying no to someone's request to borrow something (or someone, like him!) if he knew I wouldn't agree to it.

I don't know about you, but my H was more concerned with being nice to waiters, telemarketers, friends, extended family, than he was with standing up for himself or me. It was maddening.

Every little minor chance you have to show her that you will protect her from intruders, take it. You don't have to turn into a mean old man to do this, you only have to be firm and strong. If my H is any indication, I can assure you that it gets easier with practice. Intruders are anyone who hijack your family's resources, whether it be time, money, things, headspace...

Every little minor chance that you have to show her that you value her happiness over anyone else's, take it. For example, let's say your father wants you to stay late at work to take care of something, and you've already made plans to take your wife out that evening. (You are doing that, aren't you?) Either your dad is going to be upset, or your wife. NEVER let it be your wife.

There are lots and lots of opportunities every day for someone to be unhappy. Keep the motto that it will never be you or your wife, and you should be able to fill that LB$ and make the rest of the program easier to implement.

Just look for little opportunities to be a Knight for your wife, even if it's just flagging down a waiter to get her a new fork. If she is not accustomed to being protected and cared for by you, it will knock her socks off. Well, it did me. smile



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CWMI,

This is what is wrong with society... the whole knight in shining armour. Is it unreasonable to want my wife to have NO cellulite on her A$$ then? Or how about no wrinkles?

I am betting that his dad started the company, right? I bet his dad has busted his a$$ for decades to get it to a level that he can hire family and pay them a comfortable income to live and work. I bet that the way he wants to give money to his daughter is his business and he has his reasons and doesn't have to be accountable to broom's wife for it. I'm betting that broom's wife hasn't earned a nickle from broom's dad. Even if broom has been working there 10 years, I bet broom is making 2x what the longest term employee (non-family) is making, plus extra perks. If his dad was smart he would make broom work twice as hard from the bottom up for cents on the dollar until broom could run the company in his sleep with one side of his brain tied behind his back. Know why? Because if broom's wife had ANY delayed gratification training she would realize that at some point broom WILL be running the company. And all the respect that she gives broom and his dad NOW, WILL PAY BACK IN SPADES in the future, at a time when she will look at all the $hat she wants now and think how immature she was when she disrespected her FIL's hardwork and her husbands determination to learn to run that compnay.

If he is 45 yr old or younger HE HASN'T EARNED HIS WAY TO RUN THAT COMPANY. And I'll bet my life savings that he hasn't earned where he is now compared to some longstanding employees.

Ever see where dad let's junior run the company and he runs it into the ground b/c he never earned it, he was given it or given the opportunity and screwed it. Better to not marry a contentious wife than to have all the gold in the world, because she will depart with it.

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Broom,

Want my opinion? Sit down with your dad man to man and tell him it is your goal to run that company some day and you need to learn which end of the toilet scrubber to hold, to toughest logistics... and START BUSTING YOU A-- OFF LEARNING 2X WHAT EVERY EMPLOYEE KNOWS and how to anticipate EVERYTHING RELATED TO THAT BUSINESS BEFORE ANYONE ELSE.

At the same time, sit down with Queen Of-D-Nile and tell her you sat down with your dad and have a long range plan with him. Tell her that at this point two in the bush is more profitable than one in the hand, that this is a marathon, you can be 5 feet and 200lbs and be leading the marathon 100 feet from the start but another mile and you'll be last, that it's slow and steady, and you can win the prize.

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Broom, just go to your wife and talk to her with an open mind and no agenda. She might be accustomed to having to fight to get her point across, so a calm conversation might be hard at first.

What are her biggest complaints? You haven't told us if you work long hours or if you have to be at the beck and call of the business. We don't really have much to go on. I only ask because it would be really good if you went to her with a few of the things regarding the business that bother her and tell her what you are going to do differently from now on. Of course, you can always ask her smile But it sounds like she is pretty fed up and wants you to change everything...

What is going on with you and the family business? Do you put your father and the business before your family? If so, stop now and tell your wife what you are doing.

It's hard to give advice without more details smile I did try to read between the lines, but I gave you all I had. You can post more details and get our take, or read all you can about MB concepts...or both smile Definitely start getting your 15 hours of UA time!!

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Originally Posted by themud
CWMI,

This is what is wrong with society... the whole knight in shining armour. Is it unreasonable to want my wife to have NO cellulite on her A$$ then? Or how about no wrinkles?

I am betting that his dad started the company, right? I bet his dad has busted his a$$ for decades to get it to a level that he can hire family and pay them a comfortable income to live and work. I bet that the way he wants to give money to his daughter is his business and he has his reasons and doesn't have to be accountable to broom's wife for it. I'm betting that broom's wife hasn't earned a nickle from broom's dad. Even if broom has been working there 10 years, I bet broom is making 2x what the longest term employee (non-family) is making, plus extra perks. If his dad was smart he would make broom work twice as hard from the bottom up for cents on the dollar until broom could run the company in his sleep with one side of his brain tied behind his back. Know why? Because if broom's wife had ANY delayed gratification training she would realize that at some point broom WILL be running the company. And all the respect that she gives broom and his dad NOW, WILL PAY BACK IN SPADES in the future, at a time when she will look at all the $hat she wants now and think how immature she was when she disrespected her FIL's hardwork and her husbands determination to learn to run that compnay.

If he is 45 yr old or younger HE HASN'T EARNED HIS WAY TO RUN THAT COMPANY. And I'll bet my life savings that he hasn't earned where he is now compared to some longstanding employees.

Ever see where dad let's junior run the company and he runs it into the ground b/c he never earned it, he was given it or given the opportunity and screwed it. Better to not marry a contentious wife than to have all the gold in the world, because she will depart with it.

This may all be true! But we don't have enough details to know. What if he isn't getting paid 2X what other employees make? We need more details.

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Originally Posted by themud
CWMI,

This is what is wrong with society... the whole knight in shining armour. Is it unreasonable to want my wife to have NO cellulite on her A$$ then? Or how about no wrinkles?

I am betting that his dad started the company, right? I bet his dad has busted his a$$ for decades to get it to a level that he can hire family and pay them a comfortable income to live and work. I bet that the way he wants to give money to his daughter is his business and he has his reasons and doesn't have to be accountable to broom's wife for it. I'm betting that broom's wife hasn't earned a nickle from broom's dad. Even if broom has been working there 10 years, I bet broom is making 2x what the longest term employee (non-family) is making, plus extra perks. If his dad was smart he would make broom work twice as hard from the bottom up for cents on the dollar until broom could run the company in his sleep with one side of his brain tied behind his back. Know why? Because if broom's wife had ANY delayed gratification training she would realize that at some point broom WILL be running the company. And all the respect that she gives broom and his dad NOW, WILL PAY BACK IN SPADES in the future, at a time when she will look at all the $hat she wants now and think how immature she was when she disrespected her FIL's hardwork and her husbands determination to learn to run that compnay.

If he is 45 yr old or younger HE HASN'T EARNED HIS WAY TO RUN THAT COMPANY. And I'll bet my life savings that he hasn't earned where he is now compared to some longstanding employees.

Ever see where dad let's junior run the company and he runs it into the ground b/c he never earned it, he was given it or given the opportunity and screwed it. Better to not marry a contentious wife than to have all the gold in the world, because she will depart with it.

What part of this has anything to do with building a marriage? It sounds like you're recommending that he go back in time and not have married her. How is that helpful?


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Originally Posted by themud
CWMI,

This is what is wrong with society... the whole knight in shining armour. Is it unreasonable to want my wife to have NO cellulite on her A$$ then? Or how about no wrinkles?

What in the world does fetching a fork or telling people no have to do with BIOLOGY? Do you not realize that one is an action one takes, and the other is acted upon them? If your wife refuses to use moisturizer or eat right, you have an actionable complaint. But what biology does to aging cells is beyond her control. Sorry.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
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