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Originally Posted By: HeadHeldHigh
Thanks for taking the wind out of my sails, guys!


It's what we're here for laugh

Women, men, sex, and desire is such a touchy subject. It is so laced with expectation and emotion and projection that it's no wonder it can be such a land mine.

Quote:
"Even if I just have to lay there" detaches the F. No. I don't want you to just lay there.


You want her to desire you sexually, in a physical way. It is what creates the feelings of acceptance and satisfaction. You want her to WANT it the way you WANT it, but women and men are very different.

Sometimes, I don't feel a physical urge to have sex. I feel an emotional desire to connect with my husband but no physical urge. This is very much connected to hormones for me. I would offer to please my husband because I loved him and wanted to demonstrate that love, but physically I didn't desire pleasure for myself. It had nothing to do with HIS actions, but rather my hormones.

I know many men would be turned off at the thought of receiving pleasure while their wife didn't. The just 'laying there' is a turn off. I do believe that if it ALWAYS was her 'just laying there' then there would be no Fulfillment but sometimes I just don't have the energy to do much more. But I still want to demonstrate love and acceptance to my husband.

Women don't think of sex in the same way men do. They don't see it the same way and it doesn't mean the same thing to them. It doesn't make one view or the other good or bad. They are just different, and that is ok.

I would say that if your wife choses to give you the gift of pleasure, accept it for what it is: an act of love to demonstrate care. If you have an open, loving, intimate relationship, her sexual drive will urge her to come to you when SHE wants it. This will be on her body's timetable, not yours. You may not think it 'enough' but to her it is. If in between those times she choses to have SF with you and maybe she isn't as 'in to it' as you want her to be - that is a Disrespectful Judgement.

Those in between times where her drive isn't raging and she has SF with you, see it for the gift of love it is.

If the 'just laying there' is bothersome, you can negotiate things she can do that further communicate her love. Maybe it's dirty talk, or touching you in a certain way, maybe it is making eye contact.

Negotiate specific things that will make you feel loved so that the experience CAN be enjoyable for you.

But to state that THIS is what her desire should look like if she 'really' needs this is a DJ.

Quote:
I think there is a part of me that denies that she needs it met, too. Or that she is overextending to meet my need.


You don't know what she thinks or feels about it. If there are certain things you would like, ask for them. If you want to know how she feels about SF, ASK her how she feels rather than interpreting her motivation.

For me, I LOVE to pleasure my husband, even if I don't get anything in return. He used to feel bad until I was able to adequately communicate the emotional pleasure I received which, to me, was better than the physical pleasure.

If my husband wants SF, all he has to do is ask and it is available to him, because he keeps my love bank so full, any time he needs an EN met I WANT to meet it, even though I may not have a physical desire for it, myself. If that makes sense. I love that I can meet this need for him without feeling the pressure of having to get myself turned on. When I want SF met, all I have to do is ask...or throw him on the bed smile. It relieves SO much pressure to not constantly have to 'perform' to a preconceived notion of what my desire for him should look like. Because we've been able to talk openly and honestly, I know what things to do to visibly demonstrate my enjoyment to him.

Open, honest communication without DJs is SO essential to a happy sex life. It will be essential to you two once the Hysterical Bonding wears off. Using the full MB system will strengthen the foundation of your marriage so you CAN have the conversation you need about it.

Last edited by Vibrissa; 10/07/10 04:03 PM.

Me & DH: 28
Married 8/20/05
1DD, 9 mo.
Just Lookin' and Learnin'
HIYA!
Vibrissa #2433038 10/07/10 04:49 PM
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Thanks, V.

Funny thing, when I had lunch with her this afternoon, we went over this.

We talked about what is needed for SF for each of us, and the conversation goes pretty much along everything you said.

On this issue, score yourself one expert point. :p

Even more so, the emotional connection you mention; was something we lost, was something the PA never had, and is something that is stronger now than it has been since... well, ever, I guess.

On loving to pleasure your partner; same here. For some reason, I have just had a harder time accepting the same in return. That is something to put on my list and work on.

Ordered SAA and HNHNfP today.

Not that things aren't going great, I just don't want them to ever not be going great... ever again.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Quote:
For some reason, I have just had a harder time accepting the same in return. That is something to put on my list and work on.


For some people it is so easy to serve others and so difficult to accept service, and I don't mean just sexually laugh. ALLOW your wife the opportunity to Give, the Giver LOVES to make other people happy. It creates a feeling of satisfaction.

Originally Posted By: HeadHeldHigh
Not that things aren't going great, I just don't want them to ever not be going great... ever again.


Attaboy!

The wonderful thing about MB is it COMPLETELY changes your perception and expectation for marriage. Because you KNOW passionate, giddy, head over heels love can be sustained indefinitely, you don't want to settle for less. MB gives you the tools and teaches you the skills to maintain that love. It's wonderful and exciting...and I think I need to go hug my husband laugh


Me & DH: 28
Married 8/20/05
1DD, 9 mo.
Just Lookin' and Learnin'
HIYA!
Vibrissa #2433045 10/07/10 05:29 PM
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Just read over your story, V.

I wish I had done what you did at the same stage. And you are right that by getting into this you will be avoiding the same mistakes you are reading about.

I wouldn't ever have explained our marriage in a negative light, and neither can my DW.

However, it was far from sunny.

Even so, your input today has been more than welcome, and has given me a better perspective to take moving forward.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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So, we took DD12 to get her contacts, came home and worked on some RH issues digging at me, and went to DD12's band concert.

Came home, ate dinner and watched a TV show together we have a mutual interest in.

She started back to work after a week of vacation.

The plan was to take a nice hot bubble bath together, and I was going to give her a full body massage.

She was prepping the bed for after bath, and I was prepping the bath.. and then BAM. Triggered. Those quick little images and flashes.

I pushed through, though. Had our bath, caressed and chatted.

After bath I gave her a full body massage and lotioned her.

*please note - from here on may be TMI for some, but I have to share because of the elevation it gave me*


DW shared with me that while thinking about me and a little SF while she was at work, she experienced a spontaneous O. Just from the thought of me and my touch.

Talk about an ego boost!


Told her about my triggering, and she asked what I did to get through it. I just lived in the moment. After what she told me, it didn't matter anyway.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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I've found a lot of times that when I'm triggering, burying myself in service to my spouse gets me through it. It's an effective technique, and stops the triggering.


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Some times, some days, I wonder if my thread should be under recovery or surviving. I wonder if I've got enough of the steps down to consider it "recovery."

Been talking to the wife about jumping into the forums. She's not super computer literate, and had NEVER done a forum, but I think it would be awesome for her, especially since we don't have the resources (schedule/finances) to work in MC right now.

Also kind of wrestling something else. Yes, it's been over for a while, but I think EP are at 99.9% - I feel like I want to go and tell some of FFW's coworkers that if OM happen chance comes back in to the store at any time, for any reason, OM is to be nowhere near my FWW. Current plan is if OM happens to pop up (OM is in another state, but OMS still works in the store/department) FWW is to leave that area of the building and contact me immediately. I joked in enough time that I can get down there and exact justice.

Part 2: exposure. Yes it's over, but FWW, myself, and OM are the only ones with the whole story. Part of me wants to expose this to critical family members, and that part of me views it as part of compensation.

She has been hesitant on this, and I don't want to break PoJA. I also kind of feel willingness to expose, at this point, is needed for compensation. However, I am frustrated at her reluctance and almost feel like exposing on my own.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Originally Posted By: HeadHeldHigh
Some times, some days, I wonder if my thread should be under recovery or surviving. I wonder if I've got enough of the steps down to consider it "recovery."


People wrestle with this question all the time. "Are we really in recovery?" Typically, these are the signs you're in recovery:
1. The affair is over.
2. Withdrawal -- that is, the symptoms of addiction -- have very much subsided in the wayward spouse. You're not recovering while they're still in withdrawal from the lover. You're just enduring.

THAT is when recovery really starts. Typically withdrawal lasts 3-6 months in the wayward. If it lasts longer than six months, it almost always indicates continued contact on the part of the wayward. If not "active" contact seeing or speaking to the other person, then some secret stash of photos, emails, texts, or something to keep reminding them of the lover they lost.

Quote:
Been talking to the wife about jumping into the forums.


Just don't make it a demand. You can learn everything you need reading together from Dr. Harley's published works. So can she. It sounds like she's in Intimacy or Conflict most of the time, as are you. That's a position you can work with and salvage your marriage without a counselor.

The purpose of the counselor is to guide you through the motivational swamps, emotional minefields, and creative wilderness of recovery.

1. If one or both of you stumbles into Withdrawal and stays there (motivational swamp), unwilling to work on the marriage, then is the time to call in the big guns.

2. If you keep tripping over issues that cause one or both of you to resort to demands, disrespect, dishonesty, independent behavior, or anger (emotional minefields), a good counselor can help you avoid them.

3. If you just don't know what to do to move forward and feel like you're stuck (creative wilderness), that's when your counselor can help you find solutions and are best used.

My FWW and I just had ONE session with the Harleys to help us overcome a creative wilderness and some emotional minefields. Two hours later, she had us on the right path, and we've managed to make our own way since then. Absolutely worth the $200. I know Jennifer wanted us to have more sessions, but finances interfered in our case, too. I'm sure we'd have recovered more quickly with her help, but we're getting there on our own.

Quote:
She's not super computer literate, and had NEVER done a forum, but I think it would be awesome for her, especially since we don't have the resources (schedule/finances) to work in MC right now.


And that's a DJ. You think she needs some educating -- "it would be awesome for her" -- and hope the forum can step in to do it for her. If that's crept into your conversations, no wonder she resists!

Look, those of us who are really computer-savvy and communicate well in writing thrive on forum discussions. Others, like my wife, really prefer telephone or face-to-face contact. Forums just don't do it for them. Don't push. Let her know it's here, and help if she asks, but don't try to force it on her.

Quote:
I feel like I want to go and tell some of FFW's coworkers that if OM happen chance comes back in to the store at any time, for any reason, OM is to be nowhere near my FWW.


How would your wife feel about informing said co-workers of this? Why not give her the choice instead of taking it away?
Quote:
She has been hesitant on this, and I don't want to break PoJA. I also kind of feel willingness to expose, at this point, is needed for compensation. However, I am frustrated at her reluctance and almost feel like exposing on my own.


The purpose of exposure is two-fold:

1. To expose the affair to the light of reality, disrupting the fantasy around it. This usually causes it to wither and die, though rarely causes the lovers to live their affair openly since there's no further point to secrecy.

2. To gain much-needed support for the betrayed spouse.

Now, if the affair is dead, #1 is kind of pointless, and at this point possibly spiteful on your half. The bloom is already off that rose for the lovers, and they've broken up.

#2, though, may still be a need for you. Who are those people who could best protect your marriage from future threats if they knew? Who are those who could best support you as a couple if they knew the truth?

I learned the hard way this year that exposure to the wrong people can create further problems with the marriage down the line. Not nearly as bad as an active affair, but exposing the affair to a relative who thinks you should leave the cheater, then making up with said cheater when they still think you should leave them, really strains the relationship with that person.

Sorry if I've made any mistakes above. It's time for dinner, outtie!


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Wow, threads like this just warm my heart. It is so gratifying to read the informed, educated posts of Barnboy, vibrissa and our newcomer, HeadHeldHigh, who have all obviously been studying Marriage Builders. When I was new to Marriage Builders, no one talked about MB! What a wonderful change.

HHH, you are getting wonderful advice here and I would only emphasize Vibrissa's suggestion about the importance of 20+ hours of undivided attention.

Dr Harley flat out says his program does not work without it.

And by undivided attention, he means no tv, no children, no other people. 20+ hours of meeting the top 4 intimate needs is what it will take to restore the love in your marriage.

My H and I actually sit down and schedule this out once a week, writing out the times, dates and activities. That way it is harder to put it off.

The Policy of UA will make the fastest, most impactful love deposits and will make the greatest change in your marriage. When this happens, then the rest of it comes much easier. It is much easier to learn the skill of negotiation [POJA] when you are in love. When you are in love, any sex problems resolve themselves.

If you want the biggest bang for your buck, that is where I would start. You will be surprised to learn how fast you fall in love this way. Check this out: thread about the importance of UA


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
When I was new to Marriage Builders, no one talked about MB!


Yep; that kept me out of here for way too long.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
markos #2433354 10/08/10 10:03 PM
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Discussed exposure. We have decided against it.

Her mother is a serial and unrepentant WW, my mother is another unrepentant WW.

We feel that neither of us have positive support within the family, as we are adapting to MB principles.

Kind of sucks.

DW signed up for a forum account, within PoJA, DNM. Actually quite excitedly and went straight to work.

Without positive support sources for either of us, this forum is a gift.

She reads every post in this thread, has read a few others, and has started her own.

Ground rules are that we are not to post in each other's threads.

The experiences and expertise of the people on these boards is worth it's weight in gold.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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"Discussed exposure. We have decided against it.

Her mother is a serial and unrepentant WW, my mother is another unrepentant WW.

We feel that neither of us have positive support within the family, as we are adapting to MB principles."

Does the OMW know?

Can/will OM comeback to work at the old location? Also WW can be forced to move there later due to nothing but company reorganization. This is why WW has to find a new company to work for.

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Originally Posted By: HeadHeldHigh
Her mother is a serial and unrepentant WW, my mother is another unrepentant WW.


Go figure. That's exactly what I was talking about. My mother is a serial and unrepentant WW (married her final affair partner), and that's the one person I wished I'd never exposed to due to the additional raft of difficulties exposure to her brought.

I'm with TheRoad... if there's any chance of WW and OM bumping into one another, you need some sort of extraordinary precaution to prevent that. Not just trying to avoid one another in the workplace... that's a recipe for another affair. The only way I finally felt at all even slightly secure in my relationship was once my wife had changed her phone number, blocked OM from every electronic avenue of contact, and we even briefly considered moving. Threw that last one out because he was in another state and we hate moving, plus FWW thought she'd never given OM her address though, of course, we'd be easy enough to find through state records.

If there's any way OM can encounter your wife, that hole needs to be plugged. Not by co-workers watching out for OM, but by your wife removing herself from the situation where she might encounter OM. The economy is turning up and service and tech jobs are in abundant supply. Construction is still way down, though, as are industries related to construction...


Doormat_No_More
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At this time, there are basically 2 holes in NC: where she works is a Grocery store, and is open to the public. While he has moved out-of-state, he still has family here in town.

She won't be transferred unless she asks to be transferred. Actually, once I complete my Nursing license next December, she is going to quit.

The second hole is that OMS works with her.

So, we are exposing OM to his GF. My DW agreed to a phonecall with her, if that is what she feels she needs to acknowledge the truth. I called OMGF first to hash out some ground rules and set a time (tonight; if she curses or starts name calling, the conversation is over).

This is pretty confusing to OMGF. I screwed up, got her interested in the truth, then denied her the confirmation she felt she needs. She wonders why I'm contacting her again.

After the call tonight, our cell #'s are going to be changed.

OMGF must have called OM - he called his sister in his sweat and scramble. He really is a coward, and is doing everything he can to not face his GF with what he is done. I pity her.

OM's sister is NC hole #2, because messages could be passed. However, the relationship between WW and OM's sister is minimal and strained due to my earlier attempt at exposure.

That attempt, OM told his sister that my WW was "lying to get a reaction."

What a chicken turd.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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Short update, not good at keeping up my own thread. Silly me.

Exposure to OMGF was a miserable failure, and took an enormous toll on me to do so.

At this point, if she can live with a lying little *explicative deleted* who has no qualms in disrupting a family, good for her. I feel I gave her every opportunity and she chose not to take that.

Things are fairly positive, but I have the weight of recovering my marriage and nursing school on my shoulders. Truth be told, if it came down to it school can wait. It would just be a tremendous financial blow to do so at this time.

I haven't maintained my thread due to no significant new breakthroughs or setbacks. I suppose stability is good for now.

I have thought about hashing the whole thing out here - as I have found the stories and progress of others to be tremendously helpful to my own psyche, and if I can give a contribution that would one day help others, I am more than willing to do so.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaand, that pretty much sums it up.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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HHH,

Exposure to OMGF was a miserable failure, and took an enormous toll on me to do so.

Possbly not, 3 years down the road when SHE cheats on OM with OMs affair as justification, OM will taste his own medicine.

God Bless
Gamma

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Originally Posted By: Gamma
HHH,

Exposure to OMGF was a miserable failure, and took an enormous toll on me to do so.

Possbly not, 3 years down the road when SHE cheats on OM with OMs affair as justification, OM will taste his own medicine.

God Bless
Gamma


Oh, you disrupt my warm and fuzzy thoughts for other people. On the one hand, karma is an... unkind force at times.

On the other, I don't wish it on OMGF. Yet, we lie in the beds we make for ourselves, don't we?


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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Originally Posted By: HeadHeldHigh
Oh, you disrupt my warm and fuzzy thoughts for other people. On the one hand, karma is an... unkind force at times.

On the other, I don't wish it on OMGF. Yet, we lie in the beds we make for ourselves, don't we?


Over a year later, when I trigger, the happy place I go to is imagining 1980s-era Donkey Kong raining fiery barrels down on OM's head, then OM running around in circles on fire until he falls over.

The psyche isn't pretty, but this image helps defuse the triggers and makes me smile. And it's really simple and effective where many other images I attempt to use to blunt the emotional impact of triggers aren't quite as good.


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I struggle with whether I should feel vengeful towards the OW, as I really don't want bitterness to taint our future. I think that feeling bitter would make me more likely to have some horrible revenge affair. So I was pleased when I reached the point of being able to write this letter to OW.

The only other communication Ive had with you so far was to text you from his Blackberry, asking you to please confirm the dates of your affair with my husband. You didnt reply. I wanted to text again with the single word Coward, but I didnt want to come across as a bunny boiler.

Youre probably not old enough to remember Fatal Attraction. You were born while my husband and I were getting to know each other at university in the eighties. I actually genuinely laughed with him about that fact last weekend when we were eating dinner before having a fantastic night in a very posh local hotel.

You see, this letter is to thank you for jumping into bed with my husband of 18 years after your second date with him in spite, or maybe because, of having a boyfriend yourself. It quickly turned into a full-on affair, with you sleeping together most nights of the weeks when he was working in your city. Does your boyfriend know yet? Poor bloke, working weeknight evenings in the hospitality industry, but without enough drive for you apparently. Perhaps my successful husband looked like a better catch, in spite of the three kids at home?

The only thing is, the affair only made my husband realise how much he loved me. He admitted he was infatuated with you, but it is clear that you could have been anyone. The affair wasnt about you it was about us, me and him. We had both neglected our marriage he for work, me for the children. Our sex life was a disgrace, but what ultimately saved us was a deep affection and respect for each other which had never left us.

Finding out about the affair, even though it had been over for 9 months, was devastating and painful, but not actually difficult as he was very transparent with his passwords. Fortunately we were staying with friends when I found out, so I couldnt shout or throw things. I cried and vomited, but quietly and we talked.

Then we talked again, and again, and again. To cut a very long story short, we both believe we have a better marriage now than we have ever had. We talk, laugh and play together both alone and with the children. Our sex life is awesome and uninhibited. It would seem that I have a lot more confidence in my body than you do in yours age has some compensation.

Three contradictory things have helped me get to the point of wanting to write this letter to you. Firstly, I did not want to carry bitterness into my new, improved marriage with my husband. Secondly, if I did want vengeance a friend advised me that the best revenge would be a life well lived wise words indeed. Finally, you told my husband you want to get married and start a family. When I was your age I was doing just that, filled with optimism and hope, never imagining this would happen. You, on the other hand, will always know that the horror of infidelity is a very real possibility. Do I feel sorry for you? Do I hell karma is my new best friend!


I didn't send this letter as NC is for both of us, as I understand it, but I still feel pleased that I have readched the point where I can look at her like this.


BW: 46
FWH:48
Married 20 years with three teenagers
OW1: PA Sep08-Sep09 DDay Jun10
OW2: EA Feb09-Dec09 DDay Xmas Eve 09 (lovely!)
Recovering together, in spite of trickle truth...
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,121
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Originally Posted By: Doormat_No_More
Originally Posted By: HeadHeldHigh
Oh, you disrupt my warm and fuzzy thoughts for other people. On the one hand, karma is an... unkind force at times.

On the other, I don't wish it on OMGF. Yet, we lie in the beds we make for ourselves, don't we?


Over a year later, when I trigger, the happy place I go to is imagining 1980s-era Donkey Kong raining fiery barrels down on OM's head, then OM running around in circles on fire until he falls over.

The psyche isn't pretty, but this image helps defuse the triggers and makes me smile. And it's really simple and effective where many other images I attempt to use to blunt the emotional impact of triggers aren't quite as good.


You sir, are a better man than I. My smile comes from the fantasy of walking in to see or pick up the wife, and him coming to visit his sister at work.... oh, please please please please please.

I know it won't happen, though. Guess the last time D-bag lived out of town, he didn't have any more than phone contact with his family for over 5 years.

Well, in (less than) 5 years time, I'll be done with school, and leaving behind the town which I grew up in, which my family lives in, to create a new life, in a new town, with new memories.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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