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"Your post where you suggest the truth is correct in a perfect world. But it isn't reality."
No the reality is that there is nothing better then the truth, and especially in a world with all it's blemishes.
"It is a rare person who is going to admit to their child the things you want OC's parents to."
If they cared about doing right then they should of not had an affair. If they cared about their OC they would tell her the truth and use the opportunity to use the affair as a lesson about right and wrong. Life, choices, consequences, the way life has to be now because of the past. Tell the OC that they are not to be blamed. The Blame is to be placed on the adults. How the OM was wrong to have a relationship with a married woman that was not free to start a family with him. How the WW was wrong for her part.
"If you tell them how wrong their conception was,"
Not tell them they were wrong. The affair was wrong however some times good comes out of the wrong, in this case them the OC.
"but how much they are wanted..well, that doesn't work in a child's mind."
Yes it does it explains how they came to be, that they are good not eveil, and that to protect the family the OP must be bannished from the family hence NC.
"More often, the child ends up blaming the betrayed spouse for his/her parents not being together."
Have not seen stats on that. But the lesson taught is that sex should not happen outside of a marriage. That when things are done wrong there will be consequences that have to be faced. That consequences extend past the quilty people but to the innocent family members as well. That's why the OC is taught NC is for WW, BH for life but as an adult the OC can have any relationship that they chose to have with the OM.
"Sure, the bio-parents could prevent this, but more often than not, there is some bitterness on one side or the other."
So what. Affair's are forgiven not forgotten. An affair can never be undone an OC never unborn a WS and a BS be unmarried.
What has been done, has been done.
Your position is to ignore sound advice about NC and to sweep the dirt under the rug instead of cleaning out the house. This is why parents that were WS tend to have kids that were WS because instead of teaching that the WS was wrong, every thing is swept under the rug with no outward consequences.
Break the cycle with the truth. Or condem the next generation to be repeat offenders.
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Have not seen stats on that. 'nuff said. Sorry to t/j your thread, original poster. I wish you well in this ordeal. Eibrab
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Folks, Been reading along. Pops said nothing in this mess is black and white and there is no single answer/set of rules that fits across the board This is so true. Harley states that he often recommends that the WW leave her H and marry the OM if the child is the first/only child. Yet he is in the marriage building business. He also counsels folks in that situation to try and save the marriage. Doesn't sound very black or white to me. Pops and his W have contact with OM for some very good and important reasons and all would say that many times it would have been better with NC, but not to accomplish what Pops needed to accomplish back in the day. However, for most people that want to try and save the marriage NC is THE WAY to do it and probably the most painless way (if I could use such a term in this situtation.) Of all of the situations, ones involving an OC are by far the hardest to deal with, adjust to, and figure out to do. By the way listen to AD she is a special woman and does understand this situation very well having lived through the OC issue herself as Writer1 has done but is not as far down the road. God Bless You All. JL
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"""That when things are done wrong there will be consequences that have to be faced. That consequences extend past the quilty people but to the innocent family members as well. That's why the OC is taught NC is for WW, BH for life but as an adult the OC can have any relationship that they chose to have with the OM."""
The problem here is that the real lesson taught is that the innocent has been punished for the actions of 2 quilty people
Road,, with your philosophy of truth and honesty then NC seems to go against your own beliefs.
wouldn't truth mean that you take the facts:
1 - oc has 2 bio parents
2 - children should know their parents
so if a wayward wants to stay in his marriage then contact would be a given
aren't those the facts?
yes there was a time when i said that nc may have been the better path. but that was not for me it was because i had empathy and compassion for what my w was going thru.
to lessen the stress in "her" life, "oc's" life and thus "my" life i even offered to allow the om to walk away and never look back in our direction. always against what i believe to be the right thing for us
i still believe that truth, therfore contact, is the true best way in the long run for me
that does not mean that i disagree with those who choose nc. if that is best for them then i support it whole heartedly
me-59 ww-55
married 1979 - together since 1974
6 kids together 15,19,21,23,29,30
my oldest son 37
d-day (confession day) memorial day 2001
oc born 12/20/01
now 8 grandchildren
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pops
What is wrong with teaching a child the actions of one or a few can ruin things for many/ every one else?
I never said that the OC should never know the bio OD (other dad). I said that she has to wait until she is 18.
I remember you stating that you went after the OM for CS as your main reason. Then you wishing you never had because you don't want to deal with OM any more.
Is this why you backed away from dealing with the OM on OC drop offs and the such. Dumping this on your WW?
You demanded CS and were willing to handle contact with the OM so your WW could have NC.
No wonder why you have stated in the past that your WW has regretted letting you go after the OM for CS. It has forced her hand to break NC with the OM because you have dumped your part of the agreement to handle contact with the OM and left dealing with the OC and OM your WW job now.
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Oh so you are an expert. Great we always can use the help.
And, what type of expert are you?
How many affairs where you were the BH?
How many divoces have you been through? This is from post #244783 made today under Surviving An Affair.. TheRoad..how many times have you been a BS with an OC? How many times have you been a WS with an OC? Eibrab
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Oh so you are an expert. Great we always can use the help.
And, what type of expert are you?
How many affairs where you were the BH?
How many divoces have you been through? This is from post #244783 made today under Surviving An Affair.. TheRoad..how many times have you been a BS with an OC? How many times have you been a WS with an OC? Eibrab Sometimes threads go off topic, called a thread jack. If you want to dicuss something I said on another thread keep it there. This is way past thread jacking.
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I have apologized for the thread-jacking previously. This past post, however, has validity for the content of this thread.
I have asked two valid questions that the original poster should know. I would appreciate a respectful answer, as the questions are asked respectfully.
Eibrab
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Btw, I truly believe in Dr. Harley's concept of mutual agreement, where my H and I must agree enthusiastically about any decision we make. But it's hard to apply that to my desire for closure with the OM, since my H doesn't understand my desire for that. wanthealing, I am catching up on your thread, but wanted to add that Dr Harley absolutely does not advocate mutual agreement to continue an affair!! There should be no contact FOR LIFE with your OM. That is not negotiable. Your "desire for closure" is bullcrap and should be heeded. Only complete and total no contact for life will suffice. Every contact with the OM will put you back to day 1 of recovery and will devastate your husband. Your affair was the cruelest act you could have ever committed against him. EVery contact is another knife in your H's back. Don't do that to him. You are lucky he will even tolerate you, so don't push it.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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How hard is it to have OM in our lives if he ends up w partial custody? My BH wants to stay together no matter what; he loves OC like his own and wants no life without her or me. But I'm worried that it will be too much for him--and me--if OM must be in our lives. My BH has gone through enough! Though we both agreed to tell OC about bio father when she's old enough to understand. We don't want surprises down the road. Then she can make her own decision to get to know OM later on, when it won't threaten to devestate our marriage. At least that's where our minds are at right now with it. It's deep water to wade through right now... Maybe someone else posted this, but in case you haven't seen this, here is what Dr Harley advises: I am revising SAA and it should be in print sometime in 2011, and the problem you raise will be included in it. But it's particularly difficult to address because of our no-contact-with-the-ex-lover rule on the one hand, and the need of a child to have contact with their natural parents on the other. Our radio archives have more on this subject than anything I've written so far, because we've had several listeners call in with this problem, and I describe the approach I take.
As you probably already know by now, I tilt toward keeping the marriage healthy at the possible expense of the child not having adequate contact with the OM. I recommend that at the time of birth, the other man not be mentioned on the birth certificate unless he demands it. That makes your husband the legal parent of the child. If he does demand being on the birth certificate, I recommend that he pay child support until the child is 19. If the OM wants visitation, I recommend that it be done with transparency, so his own family knows what's going on. A mediator, paid by him, is to pick up and deliver the child so that you and your husband never have to have any contact with him.
In almost all cases that I've witnessed, the OM isn't willing to be named on the birth certificate, pay the child support, or make the situation known to his family. Under those conditions, I highly suggest that he not be able to visit his child until he or she is an adult. If an attempt is made, I suggest getting a restraining order. While that policy seems very rigid and uncaring toward the child, the alternatives are usually disastrous. Having an old lover around, the cause of your husband's greatest sadness, has such an devastating effect on the marriage that few survive.
Having heard from some of the couples who have followed this way of thinking, and others who have done the opposite, I am confident that it is the best approach to your situation.
Best wishes,
Willard F. Harley, Jr.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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"""""""""""""And don't have to have one to know that there needs to be NC with the OP."""""""""""""
road that's the type of myopic arrogance that does no one any good.
nothing in this mess is black and white and there is no single answer/set of rules that fits across the board Ya know, I see alot of very dangerous advice being given on a thread where a newcomer came to get advice for her marriage. Dr Harley is VERY CLEAR that no contact with the OP is absolutely essential for recovery of the marriage. That is very, very black and white throughout his writings and has been for YEARS. If anyone wants to push their own personal philosophies on the Marriage Builders forum, I would advise them to read the announcement forum and Dr Harley's comments in the mission statement at the top of each page and remind them that the purpose of this forum is MARRIAGE BUILDERS: Marriage Builders Policy on other Marriage Books and Programs
This announcement is to clarify our policy about the discussion of other marriage books and programs on our forum. Such discussion is acceptable, except on the threads of those seeking help for their marriages. Offering alternative methods to those in need promises to confuse and discourage them, often leading to unnecessary debates. Posters attempting to help should not be put in the position of having to debate basic principles. That is not helpful to anyone, most especially the poster in need. and from the mission statement: Sometimes you may hear alternative opinions that conflict with Dr. Harley's Ten Basic Concepts. These are often raised by those who have not solved their own marital problems, but still feel they are qualified to advise others. When this happens you can expect some members to explain why their approach won't work, and why Marriage Builders� offers a better solution. There are many who are offended when that happens, but please keep in mind that the ultimate purpose of this Forum is to discuss and learn Marriage Builders� concepts.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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A reminder to posters to stick to Marriage Builders concepts or refrain from posting. The purpose of this forum is to help others with Marriage Builders and we ask that you don't interfere with that goal.
I don't want to see this thread disrupted any more with personal agendas.
Thank you.
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Dear Melody, that info gives me a lot to think about. Thanks for finding that. I just wish I could guarantee that OM will stay away. I agree that closure is selfish and not possible; I've been staying rigid with the POJA so that I never hurt my BH again. I can't bear to lose him. If any good can come from my A it's that our love truly has been rekindled in a fresh way. It's been years since we were "in love," but we've found it amidst the mess I made.
Does anyone know if most OCs forgive WW for keeping OC from OM? I'm just worried my OC will one day hate me for fighting so hard to keep OM out...
Me: WW
BH
DD(4)
DS(2)
DD(1)
"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." (Jeremiah 29:11)
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Does anyone know if most OCs forgive WW for keeping OC from OM? I'm just worried my OC will one day hate me for fighting so hard to keep OM out... I would be more concerned about ruining her life with the collapse of your marriage caused by the presence of the OM. It is in her best interest to maintain a happy marriage with your husband for her security and well being. She is more likely to hate you if she has to endure a broken home. Divorce devastates children.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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There are a couple of adult OC's that post her from time to time who typically have nothing but love for their [bh] "fathers" and either friendship with their Bio-dad's or disdain for their bio-dad's.
Kaylandy comes to mind.
Mr. Wondering
p.s. - Writer asked awhile back what eventually happened in that KY paternity case that was discussed a few years ago here. The OM lost just as I predicted. After losing at the Supreme Court level in a split decision he then undertook a campaign to have the law changed in KY. There was a bill that was introduced regarding father's rights in KY that initially had support until a Pro-family organization got on the bandwagon and had the bill killed before it even got out of committee. OM is stuck waiting until his bio-child turns 18 before he can contact him. Last I saw...his website is still up "exposing" his shameful behavior for the world to see.
FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered
"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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There are a couple of adult OC's that post her from time to time who typically have nothing but love for their [bh] "fathers" and either friendship with their Bio-dad's or disdain for their bio-dad's.
Kaylandy comes to mind.
Mr. Wondering
p.s. - Writer asked awhile back what eventually happened in that KY paternity case that was discussed a few years ago here. The OM lost just as I predicted. After losing at the Supreme Court level in a split decision he then undertook a campaign to have the law changed in KY. There was a bill that was introduced regarding father's rights in KY that initially had support until a Pro-family organization got on the bandwagon and had the bill killed before it even got out of committee. OM is stuck waiting until his bio-child turns 18 before he can contact him. Last I saw...his website is still up "exposing" his shameful behavior for the world to see. That was a good thread. A lot of issues got aired. A good opportunity to think through the issues.
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Here's a couple quotes from our friend KaylaAndy (from the ky paternity case thread): Hey everyone - how about letting an OC speak for this situation with Kentucky bio-dad, aka sperm donor? (oh yeah - I definitely have a bias)
To this day, I believe the man who raised me is my father in every way. IF OM is the bio-dad in my case, he's an intruder in my family and he needed to go away and leave my family alone.
This Kentucky OM is nothing but selfish. A child needs ONE father - the same father his siblings has. But Bio dad wants HIS child - for his own selfish reasons, not for the good of the child.
When I found out there was a possibility that the man I remembered cheating with my mother was my father, I went into full rejection mode. Deep, dark depression. Keep in mind, my father (the man who raised me) was no saint, and many times as a child I fantasized about someone else being my father.
As an adult, knowing what I know, and having a strong moral compass developed through faith and action, I would have very few kind words to say to this Kentucky OM who wants to impose himself on an intact family that has received harm from within and without - a direct assault from HIM. And he wants license to continue to assault them.
The courts made the right decision. Putting your sperm in another man's bed allows for that man to take your child!! This man is not qualified to do the right thing for the child.
Let his OC seek him out later as an adult. I know I didn't want to. He committed a crime against my family and against my father. Children are better suited to be raised with one set of parents. The OM brings another discipline - set of values to confuse and create chaos for the child.l
Imagine - go read on the divorced/divorcing thread anna's x is all for appeasing the child (16 yr old soon-to-be-highschool dropout, thanks to dear-ole'dad's enabling).
The fact of the matter is that the one who is behaving honorably in the Kentucky situation is the man who the OM would force out of the child's life. The one with a strong enough moral compass to do the right thing for the child.
Two families - two confusions. That's why divorce is so harmful for children. And that's why OM is harmful to child, even if he is the bio dad.
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p.s. - Writer asked awhile back what eventually happened in that KY paternity case that was discussed a few years ago here. The OM lost just as I predicted. After losing at the Supreme Court level in a split decision he then undertook a campaign to have the law changed in KY. There was a bill that was introduced regarding father's rights in KY that initially had support until a Pro-family organization got on the bandwagon and had the bill killed before it even got out of committee. OM is stuck waiting until his bio-child turns 18 before he can contact him. Last I saw...his website is still up "exposing" his shameful behavior for the world to see. Good to know. I don't think the OM in my case would try to cause problems, but it is a comfort to know that the law would likely be on our side if he did. I think that's especially true in my case, since the OM hasn't been in the picture at all for the first 2 years of her life and my H has. My H is the only father she has ever known.
Me: BS/FWW: 48
BS/WH: 50
DS: 30, 27, 25
DD: 28
OC: 10
BH and I are raising my OC together.
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Dr Harley talks about telling the OC in this article: But if you want my advice, I would encourage you to be honest with Robin's daughter [OC] very early in life, so that there are no surprises later. I think it's more important for her to know she can trust what you say, than that she thinks you are her real father. Eventually, she is likely to know the truth anyway, and if she was consistently told that she was your daughter, the truth might undermine her trust of you. Regardless of who her genetic father may be, you will be the father that cares for her most for the rest of her life, and she will know that about you as you raise her into adulthood.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Wanthealing,
Does anyone know if most OCs forgive WW for keeping OC from OM? I'm just worried my OC will one day hate me for fighting so hard to keep OM out...
Can't speak for others, but I am an OC, and yes I wished I knew the truth earlier in my life. It would have been nice to see my bio-Mother instead of her grave stone, and to have seen my bio-Father a few more times than I did.
I do resent that my adoptive parents were offered a settlement from bio-Father and turned it down. To cover OC, should you end up in poverty or divorced, when OC wants to go to college get something for OC from OM NOW!
Also get a collection of photos and other information about OM for OC, so that OC will have an identity and a heritage.
God Bless
Gamma
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