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Also, conditions for return need to be tangeble things. like
Your name on all accounts, all passwords to email, phone and the like. COMPLETE demonastrated transparency.
Absolutely no contact with OW (EA, PA or not)
Something like a few months councelling with the Harlys or another marriage positive counselor. BEFORE he comes home.
Me; W 46 Him; H 46
2 girls DD19 DD16 Dated/Married total 28 years. ..I am learning and working on myself.
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i am confused...i thought a plan b was a lover letter, no busters? to the ws, i copied this from a fellow mb'er. not my own work. can you clarify a little more? i liked your editing but no, i want to clearly state my own desires and boundaries. is it impossible to do without concrete proof? he goes ballistic every time i mention another person? please help
would it be better to email or to put it in envelope? sorry, these details overwhelm
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oops. sorry, just got your post...
ok, you spelled it out. thank you
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added:
commitment to our marriage. I need honesty and commitment to this relationship before we can attempt to come together again as a couple. I want a marriage of transparency based on trust and honesty. I want to have all of our accounts be joint, I want to continue to be accountable for not using credit cards (both of us) and discussing major purchases and financial issues. I want to have access to your emails, cell phones, as you will mine, at any time. I want to find a joint counselor who can help us through our differences and help us develop the skills to have the marriage we both say that we want in the future. I have told you before my boundaries for a healthy relationship and I believe that being transparent and truly open is the only way to have the marriage that I wish to have with you. I believe that radical honesty is going to pave the way for the relationship we have talked about the last few weeks
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Me; W 46 Him; H 46
2 girls DD19 DD16 Dated/Married total 28 years. ..I am learning and working on myself.
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My 2cents as a forum member:
I am thinking that letter is too wordy. Waywards won't 'get it' with so much verbage, no matter the beautiful crafting. They need concise statements.
The one in the book is less wordy but says it all. You can't get much better.
Clear, firm, loving. You just plug in your own names and tweak it with info that personalizes it a bit.
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Gee, so many pages of posting and yet there is still no definitive proof of an affair. Has your PI found any evidence at all of an affair?
I have to say that your postings are confusing and often contradictory. You love him, but he�s been a bad husband for your entire marriage. He says you�re controlling, you say you�re not, but somebody had to take charge. He doesn�t let you have access to his phone or email which is wrong and de facto proof that he�s having an affair; he wants access to the family financial files and everyone tells you to deny that and to immediately withdraw all of the money, isn�t that wrong? You want him to be more involved in the children�s life, but resent it when he talks to your older kids. He says you have turned your daughter against him, you say no, but then send a letter that was entirely inappropriate to send a child about her father, especially with no proof. He says that you have fault in the marriage, you �on day 5 of this ordeal, tell him what specific grievances i committed and needs i did not meet, and ask for forgiveness� yet during a counseling session in which he says what HE perceives as your faults you get upset because it�s all lies � so the only faults that you have are those that you tell him that you have?
Do you see what I�m trying to say? Who knows, perhaps he IS having an affair?! But what if he isn�t? What if all of this drama is about a guy who realizes that he spent his life working all the time and has lost his family? That all of his efforts really haven�t been appreciated and he�s essentially correct in that he�s been nothing but a paycheck for a while? Maybe he wants you to stop him from leaving, desperately wants you to tell him that he�s valued for more than what money he makes and that it isn�t too late to change that. Perhaps it IS a mid life crisis after all? Try to look at things from HIS perspective and try to understand where he�s coming from � because I have to tell you that a LOT of men feel varying degrees of what your husband is saying. Maybe he just wants you to show him that you value him as a person � and that�s gonna take some work on your part, because after reading your thread, it is readily apparent that you don�t do that. You came here to save your marriage, right? Because anyone can go to Plan D or Plan FU without help from anyone here.
Women often complain about husbands who think that their job is all they should do and are not involved in their family; men often complain about women who think that once they have children that they don�t have to work on being a wife anymore � in both instances the neglectful spouse usually says something along the lines of �life got in the way�. No, life didn�t get in the way � lack of effort did. Your husband is finding out that he did this at his own peril. But I think so are you, and one thing that you should be sorry for is how you have essentially alienated the older kids from their father. He may be at fault for being minimally involved in their lives but you really helped the process along. They have no respect for their father because you have let them know that they didn�t have to.
So whether he�s cheating or not, your game plan is essentially the same, you need to decide why you want to save this marriage and actually decide if it�s a marriage or a travesty and WORTH saving. If you REALLY want to stop him from leaving, you need to do a real plan A, because you haven�t even done anything at all consistently that would make him want to change his mind, except tell him he needs to leave because he�s upsetting the children � that will work really well. To this date, your husband hasn�t done anything concrete against you, hasn�t moved out, hasn�t stolen your (as in his and your) money, and hasn�t filed for divorce, to me he seems like a guy that has realized that he�s now on the downslope of life, has a family that displays contempt and precious little love towards him, and doesn�t know what to do about it or even if anything can be done at this point. You say you�re the leader in the house? Well be a leader now and show him it�s not too late � cheating or not the end result will be the same.
BTW, a bit of advice, and guys chime in here, when a woman describes her husband, and the first thing out of her mouth is that he�s a good provider, that�s a code that guys know means that the husband is basically a walking paycheck.
The one constant through all the years has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It's been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt, and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game, is a part of our past. It reminds us of all that once was good, and it could be again.
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AJ, I think she did find out and hired a pi.
I don't like your "walking paycheck" reference.
In many instances, men who earn more or spouses who do, feel a bit entitled to their ema's and behaviors, as mine did. I did not consider my ex a "walking paycheck" and I don't feel M.I.P. does either.
Change happens by listening and then starting a dialogue with the people who are doing something you don't believe is right. ~Jane Goodall
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Well,I read through the whole thread, didn't see where her PI found anything on him. I guess if I'm mistaken she can set me straight.
As far as the walking paycheck, I didn't say anything at all about men feeling entitled to do anything, all I said was that when a guy hears a woman describe her husband and the first thing out of her mouth is that her husband is a good provider, men take it to mean her husband is a paycheck first and a man secondly. Ask any guy that you know, I would venture to say that most will agree. Just because women don't like to hear it doesn't mean that guys don't feel that way.
As far as what MominPink really feels about her husband, it is hard to understand. The thread is pretty dramatic or even histrionic, but I realize a lot of her thread is emotional venting and was kind of fed by advice like "clean out the accounts before he screws you every way but sideways" where what we should have been advising consistently is to calm down. get the proof and decide where to go from there. Yes, I know, easier said than done.
The one constant through all the years has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It's been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt, and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game, is a part of our past. It reminds us of all that once was good, and it could be again.
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well, i don't any of this lightly and am prepared to do what i need to do. that is why i am here. my husband has been a very emotionally withdrawn, at times abusive partner. has he gotten better? yes . has he learned to control his raging and anger? yes. his drinking? yes, lately. is he intrinsicly a good guy? i believe he is. no, he hasn't taken control, of anything, other than his career, our entire marriage. i have story after story when we were much younger when i asked ws for help and he could not help me-car broken down, decisions. i HAD to take charge, he was too busy building career. he is really good at what he does-expert, and i know it drains him. have i lost my focus? focusing too much on raising a big family alone while he worked/travelled? yes and i owned up to that. when this started, i admitted my grievancesa and asked for forgiveness. he said no. i forgave the past, looked at ways to improve the situation. i am so far from perfect, or from knowing what to do. i have prayed and re-focused my energies on my marriage in the last few weeks. ws still has reason to not want to be here. what are they? i don't know. but he is suddenly sneaking around, lying, doing a multitude of things out of his character. he goes to work and comes home-what he does in a given day is up to him, just as i am here with the home and kids. his recent ambivelence, coupled with my memory of his email encounter with an old college friend that he left on MY computer, made me skittish and suspicious. i am human and want to protect what is mine. we have had intimate conversations with each other about HIS needs and what he wants from this relationship. he wants financial accountability from me(which i have given him now) and yet no accountability to me, for his stuff. i don't think i am wrong to expect the same consideration. as for our older kids, he alienated himself when he called them names, ignored them, screamed at them. i have also worked in the last few weeks to help him re-establish some connection to them, which i feel as an adult, he is capable and responsible for. no one is responsible for MY relationship with anyone except for me. i do see good in this man-he has revealed that to me. i believe he is a classic mid-life crisis, making crazy decisions and choices which are affecting a lot of people. i love him and i believe we can work through our difficulties and develop a stronger, more loving healthy marriage. but he's the one who left-not me. he wanted out. there are reasons which i don't understand. i appreciate all input-does not offend, i am always looking for the answer that will bring us to a place of resolution, peace and love. back to work on letter...
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Mom, I didn't read all of your PB letter because IT WAS TOO LONG. Then I saw that you were ADDING things.
You need to just use a short letter.
If you don't have evidence of an A, then you of course would not mention anything about that, but what you WOULD mention are the things that you would like to end before he can come home.
See, you say he has been abusive and has drinking problems, then THOSE things are like the A in the PB letter.
You do want the PB letter to be a love letter to your spouse but it is not meant to be every once of love you have poured into it. Waywards have short attention spans.
You CAN'T go into Plan B WITHOUT an IM. Did you get one yet? There is no point in sending a letter that states that you will not have any contact but then still have contact.
Re-word the Plan B letter from SAA to suit your sitch and then post that. Do it AFTER you have figured out a IM and a different way to exchange the kids. How old are the children anyways?
BW(Me)aka Scotty:37 DSx2: 10,12 DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09 Plan B Dec18/09 Personal R in works Scotty's THING Newly Betrayed click herePraying for walls and doors. Thanx MM “Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.” ? Maya Angelou PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION THANK YOU
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yes, i am trying to calm down . yes i am invested in trying to save my marriage, to build a new, better different one. i continue to be open to suggestion and do realize in all of this, that yes i am inevitably going to become stronger and better....at being ME.
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MIP: One thing I learned when dealing with my xwh was to be succinct in everything, talking, writing, actions. I learned the hard way (much like what is happening with you) that he wasn't concerned with my well-being, our child, or anything, muchless money, and you must understand the mindset of a wayward spouse.
It's pretty much all "me me me" all the time, 24/7 when they are in this bizarre taker mode. So a short and sweet plan B letter is needed, and stick to the way it's been shown on MB.
I can tell everybody this. Despite my having divorced my xwh, his present W (one of 2 of his once ow) told me when they were first having trouble about 2 years into their affairage, that she found a secret hiding spot in their home, and in the place was a cigar box. Inside the cigar box was a letter sealed in a plastic baggie and a simple gold ring.
That was my plan B letter and my wedding ring. She found it (the affair wife) and fell into tears, and realized at that moment what she'd done, and where she was going with her affairage imho. She called me crying and asked if I could come get it. I told her no. That it was his, was given to him, as it was once (the ring) a gift to me and I remember having my friend/intermediary tell him (even 2 years after our divorce and his affairage I never really had any contact w/him but sparse) that she found it and was snooping (he he).
So one thing made it through the fog. It was my plan B letter. Now granted, I did put in my simple, old plain wedding band (not the diamond one or the e ring, heck I'm not crazy). He kept it all the years and when I finally remarried this year, he told me he was truly happy for me, that he had majorly screwed up, and that he wished he could have changed things when he had the chance.
MIP, YOU have a chance now to change things. That means doing the MD PLAN NOT YOUR PLAN OR A MODIFIED PLAN. So go with what works. We know this works. And btw, my ex was one of the worst MB offenders ever. Get smart. Go send the PB letter and do it now. And follow through with a smart plan B. I did one and I was in the exact same situation you were (new city, no family, small child).
AmericanJin: I'm sorry, but it is no secret around here that a bs is a bundle of emotions and you really do not know how to perceive a wayward spouse when it happens to you. Like MominPink, I would vascillate back and forth between anger, love, sadness, and then back around again. I had to focus on the legalities and making sure my home was secure, bills were paid, and that he paid child support. I had to. Because a wayward will NOT DO ANYTHING for another if they can help it. So maybe in some aspects my ex was somewhat of a talking wallet to me during some days, but imho, it is only the OTHER WOMEN who look at a married guy as a talking wallet. At least the ones I've heard of do that.
Change happens by listening and then starting a dialogue with the people who are doing something you don't believe is right. ~Jane Goodall
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Mom, I noticed that we posted at the same time. Maybe you didn't get to see my post.
BW(Me)aka Scotty:37 DSx2: 10,12 DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09 Plan B Dec18/09 Personal R in works Scotty's THING Newly Betrayed click herePraying for walls and doors. Thanx MM “Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.” ? Maya Angelou PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION THANK YOU
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Mom, Scotty is the Queen of Plan B around these parts now. Please listen to her.
Widowed 11/10/12 after 35 years of marriage ********************* “In a sense now, I am homeless. For the home, the place of refuge, solitude, love-where my husband lived-no longer exists.” Joyce Carolyn Oates, A Widow's Story
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ditto. How are you holding up?
Me; W 46 Him; H 46
2 girls DD19 DD16 Dated/Married total 28 years. ..I am learning and working on myself.
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oh thanks- ws has not told me he may not pay the credit cards. i am seeing attorney on thursday. well, actually, i am getting angry, so it's a new phase for me. ws told me on the phone(nope, no plan b yet) that after i told him i spent 3 bucks on a pr of jeans(had a coupon) that i shouldn't "be out spending money when I(he) don't have any money for food". my oldest told me he has beer and chicken in the fridge... you are all RIGHT about the drama though. he told me he's "miserable" and wants to "see his kids everyday" even though he doesn't call everyday. i don't trust him, his motives and i have to protect what little we have left(equity in home and two retirement accts). my mom said it best-ws is doing what he wants to do and i am doing what i HAVE to do. thanks for your thoughts-frankly, i am thinking plan D is where i am headed. ws lies, lies, lies. i am tired, lots of responsibilities. don't know if i can ever forgive this horse sh*t!
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ps i have not completely left the building yet, but seems like i am headed there...
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