|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1
Member
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1 |
She came downstairs this morning and I looked at her and I knew I would forgive her. Its not an issue. We will survive. stretch, I wouldn't be so hasty in your forgiveness. Handing her a free forgiveness pass is not going to solve the problem. But giving her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness will. I would start by confronting her with the evidence. Tell her you are willing to give her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness. What it will take to recover your marriage is for her to affair proof your marriage and commit to a plan of recovery. The recovery of your marriage will be almost entirely contingent on your wife's willingness and ability to make radical changes. Her lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. She is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe. Your wife must make an 180 degree turn in order for this work out. That means certainly that she STOP running around in bars without you. If she won't agree to that, then you don't have a marriage, you have a death of a thousand cuts. Here is what has to happen in order to turn this around: The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide. I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail. The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy. This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted. An analysis of the wayward spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them. After the first step is completed, the second step is to create a romantic relationship between you and your husband using my 10 Basic Concepts here as your guide. While your relationship may be improving, it won't lead to a romantic relationship because you are not being transparent toward each other. Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1 |
stretch, check out this article about why it is a mistake to hand out forgiveness before it is earned: Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 717
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 717 |
Allright. I hear you loud and clear.
I just know there is some hope. Thank God I have learened so much from MB before I knew about this !!
The 180 degree turn I understand too. She is not open and honest. Increasingly secretive. Obviously. Carrying on with all her friends helping her.
While I get the 180 degree turn in the road -- I can't see two feet in front of me now. Its DDay plus 9hrs and I still have to gather evidence.
I can hardly breathe !
Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children
EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012
"I want to be married and stay married. Now I uunderstand the kind of marriage I want and we all deserve. But I also know it takes two to want to Build that Marriage."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 717
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 717 |
I must say, taking the incriminating evidence of emails and saving them, copying them is very empowering.
Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children
EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012
"I want to be married and stay married. Now I uunderstand the kind of marriage I want and we all deserve. But I also know it takes two to want to Build that Marriage."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,288
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,288 |
Why would her family gang up on you?
Who would be your support?
But I, being poor, have only my dreams; I have spread my dreams under your feet; Tread softly because you tread on my dreams -Yeats
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,093
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,093 |
Stretch,
My daughter is a musician. She and her band are constantly hit up with "offers" from groupies (I almost typed "gropies" - same difference LOL). All musicians are NOT cheaters.
My DD is married and has "rules of the road", which are followed closely to avoid this exact issue. She has had stalkers from all over. One MM actually stalked her and named his daughter after her, and his wife didn't even know. How sick is this world?
Anyway.
Your WW may be "in love" with someone who doesn't even know she exists. It happens with bands. As for the "kiss" - she very well could have kissed him as he left the stage, and she says it was something more because she fantasizes it was more. Wait until you have proof. My DD has people who post to her all the time how much they want to marry her (she IS married, dorks!), and that they love her (she doesn't KNOW YOU, dorks!), and they even come up to her on the street and talk to her like they know her as BFF.
Get the facts........then panic if you have to.
HOWEVER......
Your wife needs to NOT BE GOING OUT TO THE CLUBS without YOU.
Your new strategy????
"Oh, you're going out tonight? Great! I'm coming too!" And you do not announce this until she is walking to the DOOR. Get up and go with her.
SB
Lucky to be where I am, in a safe place to get marriage-related support.
Recovered.
Happy.
Most recent D-day Fall 2005
Our new marriage began that day. Not easily, but it did happen.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 717
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 717 |
Well they sat in the van for an hour and talked. He sang her a song. They kissed a little. That was one episode.
Need to acquire the emails and read them more thouroughly to build a timeline. I think he probably woo'ed her into the sack once/twice, and then she was a needy groupie. Lots of needy girl talk with her friends: "why didn't he call... he won't answer my text... let's go see the band next weekend."
I will figure out more. In her emails it sounds like a PA took place.
Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children
EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012
"I want to be married and stay married. Now I uunderstand the kind of marriage I want and we all deserve. But I also know it takes two to want to Build that Marriage."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,352
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,352 |
You are close.Close? Dude, I nailed it! ![[Linked Image from oralchelation.com]](http://www.oralchelation.com/vibrantlife/images/bomb.jpg) Anyway, you have something that a lot of BH's don't have. You have his identity. You can find out if he's married/engaged/attached. That makes you much more powerful in the attack you're about to launch. As for the skank-ho facilitators: It may be that their morals are so abysmally low that "telling" them something that they already know (your wife is a cheater) might not be a tremendous shock, to them but...... Do these ladies have husbands? Ah, yes, THEY might be interested in learning what goes on on these "ladies nights"? So put together all your evidence, as generated in the actions I suggested in your first note. The end result will be a simultaneous exposure of your wife's infidelity to her family (yep, Mom and Dad too), the spouses of her sister-skanks, the family and significant other of the OM, your children, the clergy at your wife's religious group...... DO NOT GIVE HER ANY HINT OF WHAT YOU'RE DOING. she will pre-empt your "strike" by telling all those folks what an irrational controlling SOB you are. (BTW: the secret recorder I told you to buy is personal protection. When you DO expose, and the ton of.....dung....lands on her, she will be very angry. Textbook WS training tells her to drum up a bogus domestic violence charge against you, and the recording you'll have will protect you from this.)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,215
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,215 |
I'm about five months ahead of you in this process. What I can tell you is keep your head, and when they tell you to expose - even if you don't want to or think it will work do it!
FBH,Dad
No half measures, in anything.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 717
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 717 |
The best thing I need is a recording device for her phone and for the home phone. Help me out. I know nothing.
The best evidence is when she starts talking to her girlfriends on the phone and they download. I do have about a year plus of emails. No evidence of PA in there yet but its close. Clearly, she had the intention. I need to read them more slowly.
I also have two denials in the past few months. We're working hard on relationship and she knew I would ask someday. I am a dumb husband but not THAT dumb. And she denied anything both times. Very prepared and cool.
So help me out... how do I record the home line and her cell phone?
Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children
EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012
"I want to be married and stay married. Now I uunderstand the kind of marriage I want and we all deserve. But I also know it takes two to want to Build that Marriage."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 717
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 717 |
Need it fast actually. I got a denial from her this afternoon so I am afraid she will go into damage control and talk with girlfriends all week.
This afternoon we were having a long talk about why I was awake all night... how she knows I am very troubled... how she knows its hard. We talked about what is holding us back in therapy.
I suggested, "Something is holding us back.. maybe holding you back. Something you haven't been able to express." I said, "I know that a couple years ago you fell out of love, left me in your mind, imagined you were out of the marriage. I am scared of what you might have done."
"I did nothing." she said calmly.
Its empowering to have the denial. But now I may have blown it.
Help me with the phone snooping. Based on EVERYTHING I have EVER read from Harley, the betrayed Spouse is totally entiltled to snoop! No guilt from me.
Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children
EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012
"I want to be married and stay married. Now I uunderstand the kind of marriage I want and we all deserve. But I also know it takes two to want to Build that Marriage."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1 |
Need it fast actually. I got a denial from her this afternoon so I am afraid she will go into damage control and talk with girlfriends all week.
This afternoon we were having a long talk about why I was awake all night... how she knows I am very troubled... how she knows its hard. We talked about what is holding us back in therapy.
I suggested, "Something is holding us back.. maybe holding you back. Something you haven't been able to express." I said, "I know that a couple years ago you fell out of love, left me in your mind, imagined you were out of the marriage. I am scared of what you might have done."
"I did nothing." she said calmly.
Its empowering to have the denial. But now I may have blown it.
Help me with the phone snooping. Based on EVERYTHING I have EVER read from Harley, the betrayed Spouse is totally entiltled to snoop! No guilt from me. this was a huge mistake. You should never ASK a liar for the truth. I don't understand why you just don't tell her you know? You have email evidence. What are you waiting for? Why do you feel you need more evidence? I would set her down and tell her that you have concrete evidence of her affair with __________. Throw in enough details so she knows you know. If she tries to deny it, then hold your hand up and say, "oh no, don't make this worse, I already know." I suggested, "Something is holding us back.. maybe holding you back. Something you haven't been able to express." This is a futile game that will avail you nothing. Don't ASK, just TELL. Go tell her you know about the affair. If she asks how, tell her you have been spying on her. If she asks how, tell her you won't divulge your methods.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,352
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,352 |
Here is something that you're not going to want to hear.
While you "know" and are in the process of gethering evidence that she's catting around on you, you should not consider yourself as a discussion partner with your WW. You and she are actually on opposite sides of a fierce, and total, battle. It is arrayed thus:
You, decency, and the future of your marriage
******* against ********
Her, deceit, and her addiction to the "easy EN fix" of POSOM
Her initiatives in wanting to "talk" are only masks for her interest in finding out what you know, and how well she's kept you clueless about her activities. Try this little test: Be less and less open and forthcoming in discussions with her, and watch her bring out the "How about a little nookie?" card. If you don't bite, that will be followed by the guilt card - "Well, I guess you're not interested in saving our marriage!", said while walking away in a huff.
Wait for them, they'll be there soon if your silence is effective and starts her thinking.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,093
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,093 |
Stretch,
If you have emails regarding the hour in the van and a kiss
you have enough to nail her.
Put a voice-activated recorder in the car she drives. GPS device, too.
Also, put a voice-activated recorder in the room she hides in to make her "private" cell phone calls.
It won't take long.
BTW, and I hate to say this, groupies are often let down VERY HARD. They mean nothing to these guys. And I mean nothing. It is a hard thing to watch, to hear, and to know, but it is the truth. Fact is, many of the band guys on the road cannot even recognize the girl they slept with on Friday night in a crowd of girls on Saturday night. Ugly truth.
SB
Lucky to be where I am, in a safe place to get marriage-related support.
Recovered.
Happy.
Most recent D-day Fall 2005
Our new marriage began that day. Not easily, but it did happen.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 48
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 48 |
Glad you're her stretch123....hang in there. Just like a lot of us, we are looking for answers daily and I'm sure you'll find it here but you do have to remain calm and keep praying.....we are all here for you.
BS-32-Me
WH-37
No kids
DDay- 10/2008
Plan A-02/28/2011
Recovery or nothing!
Married-10 years
Still recovering...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,357
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,357 |
I do not think so. I have tried to snoop a lot.
She stopped using the secret email since our marriage therapy really got going. Then, all 201, she wrote a novel. I am really proud of her. But its hard because so much of the book was clearly autobiographical. THat's a whole nother thread.
I think there is no EA or PA now.
I have proof of an EA last year. There was a kiss for sure! stretch, have you snooped? What have you done to confirm this PA? (It's not an EA if they've kissed. And if they've kissed, they quite likely have gone farther than that.)
D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 48
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 48 |
[I am a dumb husband but not THAT dumb. And she denied anything both times. Very prepared and cool.]
Get this stretch123, my D day was 3years ago and i am only now just trying to do some snooping. So you're not dumb by any stretch of the imagination. We trust our spouses because that's the requirement for a healthy relationship. When they betray us, we feel played...when in fact, they're the sick ones. So I'll tell you what a vet here told me yesterday.....don't be so hard on yourself.....
BS-32-Me
WH-37
No kids
DDay- 10/2008
Plan A-02/28/2011
Recovery or nothing!
Married-10 years
Still recovering...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,357
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,357 |
[I am a dumb husband but not THAT dumb. And she denied anything both times. Very prepared and cool.]
Get this stretch123, my D day was 3years ago and i am only now just trying to do some snooping. So you're not dumb by any stretch of the imagination. We trust our spouses because that's the requirement for a healthy relationship. When they betray us, we feel played...when in fact, they're the sick ones. So I'll tell you what a vet here told me yesterday.....don't be so hard on yourself..... I STILL snoop, and my FWH has completely earned his F. One thing a lot of married people don't seem to get is that you should NEVER trust your spouse 100%. We're all wired for affairs. I'm sorry, newsong, but trusting your spouse is NOT required for a healthy relationship. Trusting my spouse helped him conduct his affair until the OWH busted them. So, no. Complete trust is poison for a relationship. Complete trust equals complacency, and THAT is unhealthy for a marriage. It is important to know that you and your spouse need to be completely open with each other. No hidden passwords, no secret phones or email addresses, etc. Nothing should be hidden from scrutiny. And your spouse needs to understand that you will do whatever it takes to keep your M safe. I have a lot of snooping tools that I use to this day. It makes me feel safe, and it confirms that my H is totally transparent and faithful. I will go so far as to say that it stuns me that I was as trusting of my spouse as I was pre-affair.
Last edited by maritalbliss; 01/30/11 07:02 PM.
D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 717
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 717 |
Its DDay +15 hours. And I am not going to die today.
Thank you everyone for being there. Especially those who were online at 3AM.
So thankful I learned about MB months ago. Little did I know...
But having the knowledge base meant a lot today.
I have copied about a dozen emails to zip stick when I had the chance. Plenty more to copy overnight. I am going to Radio Shack tomorrow because the next batch of info will come as she talks to her girlfriends, sister and brother on the phone. (Again, those enablers! WTH!! Three of them are godparents to our children. SHAME ON THEM ! ETERNAL SHAME ! for letting her do this. They have a reckoning for certain.)
Spent some time crying out back while shoveling some snow.
Glad I have a therapist that knows me for about 20 sessions I can call in the morning. Glad I started Citalopram anti-depressents in Nov. Just happened to double the dose last week. Good timing.
I will live through this!
Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children
EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012
"I want to be married and stay married. Now I uunderstand the kind of marriage I want and we all deserve. But I also know it takes two to want to Build that Marriage."
|
|
|
Moderated by Ariel, BerlinMB, Denali, Fordude, IrishGreen, MBeliever, MBsurvivor, MBSync, McLovin, Mizar, PhoenixMB, Toujours
|
1 members (1 invisible),
328
guests, and
42
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
