Agree with the concept that this DOES NOT need to keep coming up...

The difficult part is that he will manipulate my children by putting THEM in the middle by saying, " I keep trying to talk to your Dad and he refuses to talk to me. Could you guys please talk to him?"

Jim

Well that's easy Jim. These are YOUR children. If Granddad refuses to abide by your wishes, then Granddad doesn't get to see his grandchildren. First time he tries it you tell him this and let him know there will be no more chances. Then, you sit your children down and tell them the truth.

When they become adults they can make their own decisions.

So would I.

I wouldn't even dscuss the subject with him again except to say that you don't agree and never will.

and if he manipulates your children, the lot of you should go NC with your father until he apologises and agrees to knock it off.

it's fruitless arguing with him - he just doesn't/won't see your side of this and has no clue about NC.

Jim,

Some insight into your father and perhaps a short offering of a letter is all I can give you.

Your father is working to protect your brother because he recognizes that he failed as a father in raising him. This may be conscious or unconscious, but this would be the issue that is motivating his actions toward your brother. The fact that he has your brother over more often, treats him better than he treats you, and appears to expect less from him than he expects from you is evidence toward the concept that your dad is STILL attempting to father this grown man - well into your brother's adulthood.

On the other hand, your father reaches out to you to do the hardest part of the work, which is the part where YOU are supposed to do the reconciliation work. Your father knows that your brother is not capable of doing this - but likely knows that you actually DO have the intellectual ability to understand and probably the emotional strength to do something in this capacity. (HOWEVER, your father is completely wrong in believing it is the right thing to do, and I completely agree with your stance in this!)

Another issue here is that your father is aging, and something older people face as they age is a "review" of their lives. They often look back and realize that they have done some things terribly wrong, and they go about the business of trying to fix things - believing that they have to get their houses in order so when they leave this world they have somehow left it "right". They try to mend fences with alienated relatives - making peace with people they might never have expected to ever talk to again. It isn't something everyone does, but certainly something that happens frequently enough that it's easy to see when it happens. Your father looks to be doing something along this line - he wants to repair "his" family - make it all APPEAR pretty and fixed, no matter how deep the damage goes - to the outside world. It is a self-centered repair job initially in most cases, but in some cases can actually help families (NOT IN YOUR CASE).

JL hit on something that is very important here - honor, being a man, owning your mistakes and your behavior. Your father is trying to do FOR your brother what your brother cannot do for himself.......because your dad wants to fix his OWN family. What your dad doesn't see?

YOU have your own family, and LEFT HIS FAMILY THE DAY YOU GOT MARRIED. Families change. Families become different when a marriage is estabilished, because it is how we pass on "family" from one generation to the next.



The honor here for your father

is to protect

the next generation.



What he needs to understand is that your children do NOT need this "uncle" in their lives, because that uncle poisoned their lives and THEIR FAMILY.

That your job, as a father, is to protect your family, with honor and grace.


My letter:


Dear Dad,

I read your letter and it made me realize that your deepest desire is to protect your family. Of all the things you taught me, perhaps this is the one thing that must stand out the strongest, because we have this in common.

On (his wedding anniversary date) you left your family of origin and began what you now call "your family". That family would be you, Mom, (and name your siblings).

For me, on (your wedding anniversary date) I left my family of origin - my childhood home - and began my own family, too. I did what you did, Dad. I have a family of my own, the very same way that you do. I have my wife and kids, too. They are my family. In the way you view your parents and sisters and brothers as "your relatives", I also view my family of origin in this way.

This is as it should be. Mothers and Fathers raise their children to bring new families into the world. You did this for me, and you raised me to protect my family - with honor, with grace, with strength.

For you, protecting your family means that you would have all of us together - in spite of the fact that my ex-brother invaded and attacked my own family at its very core. In order to recover my family, I have worked very hard. My wife and I have managed to find the pieces of our very shattered lives, and placed them back into a home, a marriage, and a happy life together. We are on the pathway to a future together with a strong marriage.

That marriage can never include my wife's affair partner, Dad. As a couple both my wife and I have agreed that this is too risky for us. The pain involved in any kind of interaction for us is so great that it risks crumbling the work we have done, taking us back years in progress.

Our family needs to be protected from that risk. It simply means too much to us. Anyone else's desire to believe that two brothers have patched up their differences is not important to me. It isn't important for me to have anyone believe I have or haven't forgiven anyone. The view of the outside world into my marriage and family is not a factor in my life.

What is important - and the driving force in my world - is the strength of my marriage, the love of my wife, the protection of my children, and everything that goes into making my family's world the very best that it can be.

I have no need for anything else. While I appreciate your desire for reconciliation of the family of origin, it will not bring my family any peace, any happiness, nor will it be safe for them. In that spirit, I must humbly decline. I hope that you can respect and understand the decision that I offer here.

Please know that this is not out of anger, but out of protecting and honoring the sanctity of my marriage. It is the best wall of armor we have, and we must never go without that armor. We have learned this - the very hardest way possible.

Wow schoolbus....just wow. Much wisdom, and gently spoken.

Martes

Jim,

Now that is what I'm talking about!!!!!!

SchoolBus absolutely nailed it. She put into words what I was trying to say but did it far more eloquently than I could have ever done. Wow! is absolutely right.

You have become the man he taught you to be, and yes that includes forgiveness, because you forgave your W in order to save your family and protect it.

Yep! she sure did nail it.

Jim, read what she said, and then follow her advice. I just don't see anyone offering anything better.

God Bless,

JL

PS: SB that was simply masterful.

Thanks martes and JL.

Direct language, nothing to argue with because JF could just state his case with this letter. There are no opinions, no justifications, no excuses, no attacks.

I hope it helps JF.


FWIW, I was on Plan B with my family of origin for many, many years. They finally understood that if they wanted a relationship with me


I would drive "the bus".


And I DO.


SB

KUDOS SB!

I too am on Plan B with my side of the family.

Maybe one day they will wake up and want me to drive too!

JF - I don't know what to say man. You're a better man than me. I don't think an army could have stopped a beating from happening to brother or dad. You've done the right thing. Stay Plan B with them all. Your wife is your family

Keep loving Mrs Flint and yourself. I'm glad she woke up and is out of the fog.

Hello Schoolbus,

I don't really know what to say...

Thank you seems far too little for the tremendous insight, wisdom and understanding of the situation that you were able to so eloquently put into words.

When I started reading your post I began to see WHY my father acts the way he does toward my ex-brother. For years I mistakenly thought it was favoritism toward my ex-brother and now I see what it truly was, a parent having to parent a grown man who refused to grow up and become a man himself...

My father KNOWS that I would take care of my responsibilities while my ex-brother would simply walk away from them for my father to take care of...

which he always did.

Your letter is simply beautiful and touches on MANY things that I believe will resonate with my father including honor and the protection of a man's family.

Another point IS my father's age. He is almost eighty years of age and I think the last thing an elderly parent wants to think about every day is how his OWN lack of parenting has contributed to the breakup of his own family.

I think a point of great importance that you elaborated on was the fact that I must protect my OWN family now and that that must be my number one priority, NOT attempting to salvage a family destroyed by some of it's own members lack of boundaries and selfishness.

The members of my OWN family now know how precious and rare a commodity is of a family that truly LOVES AND PROTECTS EACH OTHER. It came at an unbelievably high price and will not be forgotten...

and neither will your brilliant post.

I and my family thank you from the bottom of our heart.

Thank you.

God bless.

Jim

Jim,

Glad to be of help.

Stay strong. Your family looks to you to be the strong one, and from what I have read, they have an excellent role model.

No matter the outcome, know you are doing the right thing, in the right way, for the right reason. That doesn't translate to doing the easy thing, the easy way, nor does it mean it will win you friends or make you money!

SB

Jim,

Another point IS my father's age. He is almost eighty years of age and I think the last thing an elderly parent wants to think about every day is how his OWN lack of parenting has contributed to the breakup of his own family.

Not exactly sure of that, my FIL, about the same age, was a man who cheated endlessly on my MIL, and never cared.

When a few weeks ago I encouraged my W to speak with him with radical honesty about how my W felt about his infidelity he changed.

FIL began to treat my MIL much better, and even admitted doing wrong something I never expected to hear, so it might not be too late.

You also might ask your Father how he felt about the children and husbands of the women he had affairs with.

God Bless
Gamma

Hello Gamma,

My father won't admit to having ANY affairs, let alone at least the two that I am fairly sure of...

My mother confronted him many, many times over the years with typical wayward jargon from my father every time of complete denial...

In fact when my mother died in 2007 he made a statement at her funeral that one of his greatest regrets was that he could not convince her that he HAD NEVER CHEATED ON HER!!!

It was an interesting statement since that topic had not been raised by anyone...

which is quite telling on its own merit.

I really don't believe my father would ever admit to an affair for two reasons, one it would tarnish his honor and secondly it would weaken whatever argument he thinks he has of being a good father and not being responsible for helping to mold my ex-brother into the miserable wretch he has become...

He may or may not ever want to "come clean" about it but I'm not holding my breath on it.

If he ever does "come clean" I would VERY much like to ask him how he feels about the damage he had done to the families of his affair partners.

Thanks for your comments.

Jim

good post