From another local relationship site, located on a former newspaper web site of a state capital, the point which a woman raised was "how much of an alpha male do you want?"

This one person said that she wanted a decent level of alpha male to follow, to lead, which is a bit counter intuitive to the marriage builders relationhip concepts. I thought about this, and looked at how much alpha male i have, and its definately wained over time, partly because of this web site, and partly due to other factors.

So in my "analysis" of my pick up artist attempts, humor you serious anal retentive types, i was wondering about how that male attribute plays into dating. And the first part i noticed it plays into is if the woman expects the man to make all the effort in setting up dates, and basically chasing the woman. I have seen very honest and direct woman say that that is the point of their first impression of a man. Does he take the lead, does he follow through, and is he persistent, all characteristics of a alpha male. This attribute plays well with older women, but not as predominate with younger women who have been educated to be more eaqual to men, ie, to allow their alpha and equality to be perceived and respected.

So to AGG, who has been succesful, and others who are currently in post divorce relationships, much much alpha did you display, and ask your SO if who alpha males personalities play into dating selection?

kind of interesting, because alpha males take the lead, which somewhat expects the woman to follow. .. which puts the initiation responsibility on the male most of the time. . .

wiftty "with not as much alpha as I used to have"

but now realize i have to work on it prior to the relationship being consumated in exclusivity

I had a hard time following some of what you wrote. Do you only want responses from men?

isabeau, what concept did you have difficulty with?

answers are from anyone who understands the alpha male concept, and can evaluate it within a dating / relationship view

wiftty

There have been other threads that were addressed to men, and when women responded, all sorts of bent-out-of-shapeness occurred, so I was just trying to cover my bases.

What I love about the MB material is that it focuses on making decisions together. And I crave a relationship with radical honesty - which takes a very strong man in terms of willingness and humility.

Having said that, I would like a man who can confidently make a decision, on his own, without falling to pieces. How much 'alpha' that is, I can't say, but I know it has to be different than a passive man.

And I'm not advocating independent behavior, but simply being able to stand on one's own two feet. We make thousands of decisions in a day, and a confident man would be nice.

On the other hand, I would like a man who can listen and understand. I don't have to be agreed with, but I would appreciate being heard without the impatience, sarcasm, or dismissive attitude - which are all very painful LBs for me.

In dating, I like being pursued. I like men who take the initiative and are persistent. And I also prefer for men to be first in expressing verbal affection and initiating physical affection like holding hands or kissing.

Even in relationships labeled 'equal' there is a feminine half and a masculine half, and people have to choose their roles. I prefer to be feminine, and that's the role I want to maintain throughout meeting, courtship and marriage.

It's very, very frustrating to me when men start out being masculine and then go passive, which is what happened recently in a relationship that I've been in for months. He initiated, he made decisions, he was verbally and physically 'aggressive' in a way that was very pleasing, and then gradually, day by day, it all stopped.

I can't speak for someone else's motivation or intentions, but, to me, it was like he was playing a role that he couldn't maintain.

The radical honesty has to start way before the dating, so what would be awesome to me is a man who knows himself and who can be honest from the start about who he is and what he wants.

It's saves SO much time and heartache.

that puts alot of the burden of rejection on the man, if you want him to be the sole initiator and pursuer and verbalizer, and you the sole decider. and he may have run out of patience figuring that his goal may never be reached. I don't know, but i do know that there is a dynamic here which is a bit counter to MB, and i said a bit, NOT ALL. .

so just take care in putting so much responsibility for the relationship on the man, because men don't like rejection as much as women don't like rejection, especially in today's world where in the work environment, we have to treat women as equals, and then go to the dating world after work, and have to treat you differently. THat is a bit why i am looking for a a professional woman who understands that she can't be 100% in one environment and lose all of that in another environment, because i will begin to guess which environment i am in, or when one starts and the other stops.

wiftty

I can tell you what i want, but getting it all in one person is most likely never going to happen. . . unless i get very, very lucky. . . and most likely those people are so fun and good, they are already taken, remember, the midlife dating pool is the shallow end of the gene pool, filled with rejects for one reason or another, and there is not as much time left to enjoy each other, so if its a struggle of any kind, time to move one to find a more compatible match.

wiftty

my bag of luck is almost empty. . .

Well, there are a lot of variables involved. It's not a black and white situation, and has a lot to do with the people.

For me, I prefer masculine men. So, yes, the burden will fall on a man to ask me out first, hold my hand first, and tell me he loves me first.

But, once the affection has been offered the first time, then I would feel the freedom to be more open. It's not that I expect a man to continually bear that burden, but, as I said, I prefer the passive role.

Have you read Fred's thread? What I'm saying is completely different from what he's experiencing. His female friend doesn't reciprocate at all. I do.

An example of this would be my boyfriend's birthday. I asked him if I could take him out to eat for his birthday. I also bought him a chocolate cake - his favorite, and gave him artwork that I'd made specifically for him.

So, the giving isn't all up to the man. But it does start with him. I do think there is an appropriate move toward negotiation and the POJA, but not initially. That's more appropriate for a stable, committed relationship that's moving toward marriage, IMHO.



I disagree. You don't have to figure out anything on your own. If you have a concern or question, ask. To me, that's part of radical honesty.


No one likes rejection, I agree. But once again, in my world, you're going to have to ask me out, and then I'll say yes or no. You may try to have sex with me - you're going to risk rejection. You may decide you want to marry me at some point, and then you'll ask, but ultimately, I decide to accept your proposal or not.

But, there is always the possibility that after a year of dating, our relationship is going nowhere, and I'll say to you, "This needs to move toward marriage, or we need to stop seeing each other." Then you can say yes or no.


I would disagree. It is possible for a woman to be masculine at the office yet feminine in her personal life. But it is true that lots of women these days are having trouble because they are trying to be masculine at work and at home.

Or, perhaps, you'd prefer a masculine woman who asks you out?

I've found that men usually want to have sex with masculine women and marry feminine women. Not always, but in general. There are always exceptions.

Wiftty,

I am what you would call the anti-alpha-male . But I do not agree with Isabeau that the opposite of alpha male is passive. I am neither - I prefer cooperation, which as you said is very much the MB philosophy. But I do not think cooperation is passiveness, it is simply the act making joint decisions. Don't get me wrong, it does not mean that I ask my spouse (or GFs back when I was dating) for their input on every single thing I do, but I do want her input for many things. Perhaps this is what Isabeau considers passiveness, but again, I don't see it that way.

In my dating, I found my share of the women you described, who wanted the alpha male. So, I just moved on - there are plenty of women who want to be equals to their partner, so I looked for (and found) that type. Again, neither is better than the other, it's just a matter of finding what works for both of you. There is some discussion on this in the book "Will Our Love Last?", where he discusses the different types of marriage (traditional (think Leave it to Beaver), equality, and unfortunately I forget the others). But you get the idea. You want to find a partner who has the same idea as you of the man's and woman's roles in marriage.

When I just started dating and did not have much confidence, I felt defective for not being alpha enough. But after a while, I realized that there was nothing wrong with that, I just needed to find someone who was compatible with my style. We both make decisions, most together, and it works for us just fine.

I also agree that it is often hard for men to understand what the heck women want these days. They want the tough alpha, but also someone who would listen to them and be sensitive to them. Be the first to initiate affection but don't be a neanderthal. Be masculine but sensitive. No wonder men are so often confused and then get accused of getting it wrong; there are no instructions. And of course women feel the same way about us, I get that.

I know what you say about the pool being a bit shallow, but I still think there are plenty of good fish even at that end of the pool. After all, you and all the other posters here are at that end of the pool, so it can't be all bad .

AGG

I'm almost 44. My experience with men has been that true alpha males are the polar opposites of passive men.

Cooperation, to me, is not synonymous with passivity. That's why I like the MB way, it represents balance.

the last date i had was looking for a true alpha male, pays for everything, takes her everywhere, spends all the money, is good to her kids, but she had a narcissistic father, who is an alpha male, but has no empathy. So she found alpha males but can't distinguish the good ones from the bad ones very well.

A player is an alpha male, but the difference is that he doesn't care about an individual outcome, and he puts a high value on himself. So there is a fine line and the pick up artist approaches actually work, i have seen it in action, where the females are attracted to alpha male presentations, which just blew me away to watch it in action, with my date.

wiftty

isabeau,

i don't sexualize alpha characterists, meaning that taking the lead or speaking up is masculine and reactive is feminine, though i have seen very reactive men look feminine, and talk feminine.

but as you said, you want the last word, so I hope it works for you

wiftty

wiftty, you posted a topic, and I was simply trying to offer my personal thoughts and experience. I apologize if I offended you.

no, you didn't offend me, i just think its very uninformed to assign characteristics by a gender. alpha to me is leadership, action oriented, speaking up first. both genders can have it, but in today's world, waiting will just let life pass you by for not sometimes taking the first step.

the only people who can offend me are personal friends, and people whom i know very closely. . . otherwise you are just a figment of the internet, nothing personal, just a poster. .

I understand and respect your point of view, and I'm glad I didn't offend you.

I completely agree with you that both genders have the potential to be either alpha or passive, masculine and feminine, etc.

My point was not that I expect all men to be alpha, or that all women are to be passive. Or vice versa. I wasn't trying to assign a single characteristic to one gender, but rather, what I was saying is that in a relationship between two people, there must be a choice depending on the people involved.

I understand that you don't sexualize roles, but I believe that God created humanity male and female - and we are very different. Yes, we possess bits of both, but, ultimately I believe we naturally tend to lean one way or the other. Yes, there are men who are more feminine and woman who are more aggressive, but I do not believe that you can have a successful relationship if you have two people who are both alpha or both passive. Does that make sense?

This is why even in homosexual relationships, you will often see one dominate partner and one submissive.

We were created to be different, yet compatible.

So, what I said to you earlier about preferring a masculine woman who asks you out wasn't meant with any sort of hostility. It was an honest question. I'm not saying that asking a man out is wrong, but I do believe it sets the tone for the dynamic between two people. And it's very possible that it will work for those two people.

When I say that I want a man to be the initiator, I'm not trying to get out of being rejected, and I'm not getting off on the possibility of rejecting or hurting someone. And it's not about having the last word.

I'm simply drawn to more aggressive men. That's my personal preference, and it doesn't have to work for anyone else. Just in terms of having a wonderful, sexually fulfilling relationship in marriage, I know myself well enough to admit that that's the type of energy I need.

Wow.

I wasn't going to comment right away, as I wanted to think about this a bit. But I find I've been thinking about this from post One -- and Isabeau even remarked on my current thread -- and I can't resist responding. It probably won't be helpful, and may muddy the waters, but here I go...

What is an alpha male? I know that I have my own idea. It's probably stereotypical. And I don't consider myself one by that stereotype.

But I have alpha characteristics. I find that if I'm in a meeting room without a designated leader, I tend to start things going. In my current dating "adventures," I find I'm doing the heavy lifting: deciding where to go, driving the car, paying the way, and even bringing token gifts (how's that for being circular in a posting sense?). I do not have a problem behaving in such a manner.

But, as Isabeau also noted, I'm not getting any feedback. "Reciprocity" is the term that applies here. I'd like some sense that my efforts are being appreciated. I guess that's why I think I'm more like a "part-time alpha male."

You see, Marriage Builders has shown me that working together, using the POJA, meeting each other's EN, and ceasing "role playing," which to me, is what "alpha," "beta" and other such characteristics become.

I think that MB principles would help create more of a balance in areas where people struggle, but I think that masculine/feminine tendencies go pretty deep, and, honestly, I wouldn't want them to cease completely.

A masculine husband would turn me on. A masculine husband that I could be free to be honest with and make enthusiastic decisions together with would be even more of a turn on.

I think it's all very individual and personal. People's marriages and family lives are each so different.

What is attractive to me in a man may not be so to the other woman around me. And how I define 'masculine', and what that means to me personally, may be a far cry from what others think of.

So what are those characteristics that define masculine in your eyes Isabeau?

Are any of you following cemar's thread? ML and CW summed up what I've been trying to express:


and...



That nails it.


BCboy,

To be honest, the aggressiveness I'm looking for is purely sexual. I don't care what job he has or how much money he makes. Those come last on my list of ENs. He can be a combination of a variety of things, but as contentwife said, I'm strong, and I desire someone stronger. I want him to treat me well, but in terms of sex, I want to be dominated.