From my reading, I was under the impression that Dr Harely claimed 100% success rate when both partners use the program, not 90%. Sort of like a diet. If you religously follow it, it works.
But, there are a lot of WSs who will not particpate, my own among them. We are moribound, IMO. And, there is not a damnthing I can do about it. Too bad for the kids.

Much lower than what? You are manufacturing false standards in order to portray the program as a failure. You are being disingenuous. Dr Harley has said that his program [meaning the Basic concepts] works 90% of the time. He has also said that in Plan A - meaning an active affair - that Plan A works 15% of the time.

Since the purpose of Plan B is NOT to reconcile but to protect the betrayed spouse from harm, there are obviously no stats for recovery.


Which figures? The figures cited for Plan A or the figures for the basic concepts?

I already posted his statement so you can read for yourself.

But someone, not you, has suggested that plan B is even MORE effective than plan A.

Did you jump them yet for getting it wrong, or is that just reserved for when you think I'm wrong?


So bascially, if the WS doesn't end his/her affair on confrontation on D-day, there is a 15% chance that plan A will motivate the WS to end the affair.

In your words, which I tend to agree are true here, plan B is not designed to end the affair, but it does present a "limited time offer" in the plan B letter that if they end the affair and pledge to a program of MB, that the BS will take them back, but this is an offer with an unspecified expiration date, known only to the BS.

So to reach the 65% figure for saved marriages that I read from you before, is it correct that you are saying that approximately the other 50% of saved marriages are saved during the D-Day phase since plan B is not designed to actually save the marriage, but protect the BS?

Because if plan A works 15% of the time, and plan B is not designed to save your marriage, then your odds only improve a little if you actually plan A vs just confronting the affair on D-Day.

Do I understand what you are saying?

Or how do you arrive at 65% save percentage?

Actually, I have presented why I think it's a valid question. You simply refuse to accept the answer I've presented.

So why would I repeat my answer given your behavior?

Nope. I did not claim that Plan B was "more effective." The purpose of Plan B is to protect the BS. Period.



No, I am not saying that at all. I said nothing about the D-Day phase and haven't speculated on how many marriages are reconciled during Plan B. I have no idea.


The 65% figure is widely reported as the # of marriages that don't end up divorced over an affair.

Yes, but the 90% figure does not seem to square with the statement that follows his saying that he is not convinced it works 100% of the time. He says that of the tens of thousands of folks he has counseled, he has yet to see one coule that did not go onto a healthy marriage.
Perhaps it is his personal intervention vs the employment of the method without his personal interventionthat accounts for the 10% increase.

OK then bear with me here.

If 65% of all affairs do not end up in divorce and only 15% of plan A'ers achieve a recovered marriage, where are the other 50% of those affairs that don't end in divorce?

Now before you jump on me, I realize that we hear nothing about the quality of those marriages, and I don't want to muddy the waters asking how many of those 65% that don't end in divorce are marriages we would actually want to be part of. That's a whole other legitimate question for another thread if you want to discuss it.

But if plan A only gets you 15% of the 65% widely reported, where do the other 50% come from?

Plan random luck?

If plan A is only effective in 15% of cases, what are the factors that get the best results out of those odds? Are they different for BH's vs BW's? You know the litany of questions, so I won't repeat all of them.

You tell me. I do not profess to know.


That is real easy to answer and Dr Harley does address this. Only 20% really recover. Most are worse off than the pre-affair marriage.


I don't think its that hard to figure out. Most affairs last around 2 years, rarely do they go longer than that. Plan A for women lasts 2 to 3 weeks and 6 months for men, so it stands to reason that many end AFTER Plan A.


You would have to ask Dr Harley this question. I know what I see here on the board, but have no idea how would answer that question.

You make a good point , enlightened. I think those of us who may be more logical/mathematical thinkers see where the figures do not seem to add up.
I am sure i read that plan B is even less likely to break up an affair than Plan A.
So, we get a max of >30% of affairs ending due to the plans. That leaves 70% of the affirs ongoing after the plans are implemented.
The only thing I can think of is that the remaining 70% die, for the most part, regardless of the plans implementation.
So,can we draw the conclusion that affairs die, for the most part, regardless of the use of the plan? And, that once the affair dies , 65% recover their marriage(again no comment onhow happy it is).

Do you not understand that Plan B is not intended to break up an affair? Can I ask why you are commenting on this subject if you don't understand the topic? It that your idea of "logic?"

Did you just sign up on the board to make cheap shots about Marriage Builders?

Enough! We are locking this thread and getting back to the business of this board, which is marriage building.