North, don't question it. Allow her to meet your needs.

I know it's... strange. I get you. Just remember that what she was trying to do was to meet your needs. Go with it!

Not saying that having some concern is not legitimate, but part of that goes back to...?


That sacrifice mindset. You would rather go without than not be able to reciprocate.

When she is ready to allow you to meet her need, she should be O&H enough to make a request, or initiate.

HHH,

It's a two-fold thing, (1) the no reciprocation thing you mentioned and (2) me thinking that she's thinking "Well, got that out of the way, that ought to shut him up for a while!" A DJ, and there's no indication that it's true, but now I'm wondering when the next time is going to be...you know? Getting greedy

I can just sometimes sense moments where we're back where we were a year ago and don't want that complacency back ever again.

When that time comes (reciprocation) I have little doubt that she'll have to initiate that. A little too much rejection on my end to feel comfortable initiating anything for, probably, some time to come. Residual damage I guess.

Accept the rejection. You can handle a couple of "No's".

But before asking, have a few dialogues. Not about SF, but about everything. Intimacy, talk about childhood memories, practice your conversation skills. Meet her EN's. She will feel closer to you.

Eventually, have dialogue about SF. And be direct. No non-verbal language and dance of seduction. Just be direct. Tell her, "I believe I would like to make love to you. WOuld you like to make love to me?"

Go for it. Just do it.

Totally get that dude. Totally. It was so bad that I stopped trying, because when I "got what I wanted" all it did was make me feel worse.

What I wanted was not sex, but intimacy, and it was FWW's attitude toward it that had stripped it of intimacy. It was my place in her priorities (dead last). The loss of her poor view of SF is the reward for this scar our marriage now bears.

Not sure I'm going to put myself in that position just yet...maybe an effort to preserve some dignity? In the end, I think, the point will be moot and there won't be anything to be scared of asking.




That's the plan. We never talked about sex in the past, have had a few discussions on it recently, but I can tell she's a bit standoffish about it. Improving, though....just slooooowwwwly!


LOL, yeah, well, just the thought of me saying that sounds foreign. Though I did say the "I would like to make love to you" earlier last week...what's the sound of one hand clapping? It was awkward for her. Her $LB just isn't high enough yet, but it sparked a good conversation so it wasn't a complete loss!

Only so many times you can stand to hear the "I just don't feel a connection!" before you'd rather get a root canal and save yourself the angst.

And, yes, I don't want "just" sex either and my FWW's attitude about it does strip any intimacy from it. Pretty mechanical, not for me. Well, sure, I'd take it, but it's not the same by a mile. There's still that "rejected" feeling floating around. It's lessened a little, though, since she made an effort but it was rough knowing that it was just an effort made for me. Guess that's a good thing and bad thing at the same time. Mostly a good thing, though, since the last time I was anywhere near here was June 2010.

Ugggghhhhhh.

The "feel a connection" thing... ack. I don't know if that's a woman thing, or a WW thing.

In a way, it's where I gained - that feeling of "connection" (whatever the frick that means) never occurred within the A.

Did you watch the Vagina Monologues clip I posted for stretch?

Let's see...



The whole thing is in the telling, it really is. And, yes, it boils down to the point where "I began to see myself through his eyes."

When you consider that the whole thing comes out of something of a feminist bent - it makes it that much more amazing.

What can you do to open her mind and heart to see herself through your eyes.

It took me one night in a KOA cabin with nothing left to lose, and baring myself completely as well.

1 weekend, North - no kids. Start looking.

I saw the link a few days ago while at work. Umm, yeah, not the best place to watch it. But, yes, it was telling, particularly towards the end.

A weekend with no kids--geez, wish I could remember what that's like but it's doable. FIL offered several times to help us out so we could take a trip or something.

Time to take that next big step, I guess. Surely, I can stick my neck out one more time...I think she's now starting to be more receptive, but she's definitely moving slower than me in some regards.

Funny thing you mentioned KOA. We just came back from a weekend trip to see Thomas the Train with a 5 and 3 year old. Four hours in the car each way. Not recommended unless you have one of those plexiglass dividers like they have in limos. Trust me on that one. Anyways, coming back I saw an interstate sign for a KOA--I didn't know they were still even around. Hmm.

We spent a weekend at FamilyLife Weekend to Remember. No Kids. Its truly marriage changing. How religious are you North? Its Christian based. But the Marriage After Dark lessons and homework on Saturday night were phenomenal -- might be what you need to discover intimacy.

I know that's what you want -- intimacy. Its funny, sounds like a role reversal. SF = intimacy and connection for the husbands. For wife's it can be "just an act." Well, WW especially I suppose. They had to turn it into less meaningful act.

However, I've read often that men do have scientific levels of Oxytocin and Endorphines during the act that make us feel more emotionally connected.

SF has been pretty important to us during our attempts to get ourselves on recovery. Because there is an intimacy and connection. I have learned a lot of lessons along the way about being more mature, respectful, sensitive. It got to a point so often in the past where my immaturity, or sulkiness, or selfish behavior or rude behavior drove away the intimacy and made it just an "act." Something she just used to service the M. Something she used to make me complacent. Something she was willing to "use" to get more time with OM who she believed was more capable of meeting other EN's.

Looked at their website, the closest one is in New Orleans of all places. We just came from there a few weeks ago, took the kids to the zoo, made a day of it. Will think that over, thanks for the recommendation.

We've laughed about how SF and intimacy have become--she's like I was for a long time, I'm how she used to be so, at least, we know how the other feels. Helps sometimes.

Since she quit her job, money's tight but I'm thinking about how we can fit a good road trip in somewhere. We used to love doing that B.C. (before children)--drove from MS to Maine one summer, no reservations, nothing but a map and general idea of what direction north was in. Need to do something like that again.

NW - I love the 'general idea' road trips too. It's one of the things I want to do when I retire. WW and I both love to travel, but we do like different flavors. WW favors, quick dometsic trips and I favor longer, overseas adventures. Another area where we are very complimentary. So much in common and yet it's all slipping away, what a shame! Sorry, just made me stop and think about it.

It's bittersweet to me as well. During the last "long" roadtrip we went on (2002, maybe?) she was up every morning calling her OM while I slept.

I thought we had fixed things in the interim, guess not, huh.

But it's the spontaneity of the trips that we always liked. Too much planning kind of messed it up.

NW - checking in on you - how are things going?

Thanks, Andy. Thursday evening's "adult time" really made my day, so Friday wasn't all that bad. Then we left that afternoon for a weekend trip four hours away with the kids. Not the best idea, our youngest is 3 and drives her brother nuts. Make a four hour car ride kind of tiring.

Monday was a little better, then we paid bills and saw how that was. Ugh.

FWW is working really hard here, have to give her that. I actually felt "ok" for the first time in a long time Friday morning. Unfortunately, the weekend trip offered no UA time for us and with the kids fighting it stressed me out. Then paying bills didn't help, and so here I am.

W did mention tonight that she felt there was an "expectation" for her to do something tonight since we spent probably three hours just talking and had a good night. I didn't confirm (but you know what I was thinking) and just said I understood where she was coming from and took the high road.

Just wasn't in the mood to ruin a good evening by talking about something (SF) that we've talked about too many times already. Ever feel like you keep having the same conversation, over and over and over like the Groundhog Day movie? Naw, just messing with you Andy, I know you know what that's like.

So no real news, things are looking up and I've seriously got to learn some patience here. I'm trusting that it'll work itself out when we work our marriage out.

Not a bad night, spent about an hour talking about sex. After last Thursday she was worried that I'd be upset that she didn't feel a connection during the act and would be able to tell. Umm, yeah, I can tell these things but thought the intention and willingness to act was genuine and counted for something.

So SF again, pretty one sided again but I guess I should be glad that she's willing to try, right? She said she didn't know how else to get that connection--either wait for it to hit or let feelings follow actions. So she gets the gold star for the effort and trying to just plow through it instead of sitting on the sidelines waiting for a flash of light.

Still, though, she says she's impatient for things to get better and is fearful of "what if" romantic love doesn't return? Crapola, I hate having a "what if" thrown in there! She's quick to add that she's 100% in this and isn't planning on bailing or anything, but cannot help but worry about "what if." Yeah, me too, I said, but things change so rapidly that I've kind of given up trying to predict the future. She said she agreed with that, made her feel a little better.

I mean, really, we wouldn't have even been having that conversation two weeks ago without a slew of DJs being thrown around. She laughed, said that was true.

I just feel like I'm missing something here. I've asked, and she cannot identify a "single" EN that would add thousands of dollars to the $LB, just a lot of little things that add up. And I've been tackling those little things with a vengeance, guess they're working if we're able to have SF and these types of conversations--right?

It's almost like we are watching our progress too closely, and it's ruining any spontaneity. It's like when people know they're being watched, they change their behavior, or something like that.

I know, this post made absolutely no sense

NW - Your post makes sense to me - does that mean I'm as confused as you? I can't believe I'm going to type this, but 'kudos to your wife for trying.' I can't get my WW to do anything ACTIVE - very frustrating. Mine did the same 'what-if' thing on the same topic without any chance/hope of SF sometime in the near future. My WW is on the opposite end of the spectrum, she's not 100% OUT OF the marriage. My WW says the same thing, it's all the little things that add up to BIG things. However, if she doesn't verbalize it, it's hard to be a mind reader.

No, it makes sense. You don't watch the progress, you watch your actions, and you allow the progress to happen.

I don't know what to tell you on the whole "connection" thing, as in my case it was a poor view of SF on FWW's part that blocked that connection, and fogginess that even brought the mindset into play.

Unfortunately, telling her what SF means to you is a dangerous walk on the DJ tightrope. On the other side, though, it could be a DJ on her part that is blocking that "connection."

I'd like to tell you to put together a letter or something explaining what SF means to you... but I don't know if that's the right thing to do or not? Is it RH or a DJ? No clue.

Who the hell knows

But where else can I ramble about the loose marbles in my head and have someone say, "Your post makes sense to me."

I appreciate it.

Still watching your thread--waiting for your wife to have that "Ah Ha" moment.

At first I went the DJ route with the SF talk--several months ago, while the A was still on. Yeah, that worked really well

Since then, we've had plenty of good talks without DJ so we both know and understand where each stands re: SF. She wants the connection to have SF, I want SF for the connection but then don't get the connection when we do have SF because she doesn't have the connection while SF is happening so around and around we go. Now if that made sense, then you get the gold star.

But I get a mini-connection, I guess, so it's not that bad. I really hate to complain when there's a thread about a guy being tossed in jail because his wife is batpoop crazy.


This may very well be true, and I'll chew it over...

What thread is that? Is he in jail now? Do they even have the internet in jail???