Just because it has allways been a tough thing to negotiate for me, I thought I would run this subject up the flagpole, and see if anyone salutes it. All comments are welcome.

Well to me, as a parent, and even as just another human being, what I do is more important than what I say. I cannot expect someone else to act differently if I don't. I can't expect anyone to do what I cannot seem to do myself.

In the realm of personal relationships, bonding, closeness, trust and investments, most of us desire a close relationship with our spouse, and our children. We seek approval from them when they are adults, and we want to teach them they are allways loved, but are still able to make mistakes, and that love is not lost because of those mistakes. As parents we must be willing to accept mistakes also, and make corrections, in humility, because we are also teaching this very important lesson in life. Act, think, consider everyone and everything, and do not react blinded by emotion.

Again though I stress how I feel we must show the way for our children, how we are allways being depended upon by them, even when it seems they lost for a time, and don't see eye to eye. They are looking for examples, and success in our lives. One of my highest aspirations in life, was to have my children look at me and my wifes lives, and allways desire to have one with the same character.

But in life there are choices we are forced to make, and emotional hurdles we must jump over, that sometimes trip us up. I wanted to avoid the pain my children would have to endure at a young age if they had to deal with such adult topics as addiction and mental illness, but the side effects still affected them, all the while, I had to say, "Well this is a different life for you than Mom and I had, so you should consider what we say, and what God says, about what life is about, Mostly God".

I am very aware that to children, we represent God, and when they look to us for guidance, as the primary and also most likely to care for them, it can be monkey see, monkey do, and it was OK for us, it must be OK for them. Maybe the worse thing we can do, is tell them about how many bad mistakes we made, and how we want them to avoid the same things, without having some reason to go along with the explanation, after all, to them it can be like temptation, and why should we have all the fun? I didn't tell my 12 year old, that when I was 12, I made a propane tank spout a 25 ft. flame, or how I did it, no matter how boring Dad seemed to be and didn't understand. I avoided all of those foolish childhood antics, because in truth, I am lucky to be alive, and they hold no bravery or honor to me, and I did not want to teach them that either.

But in the case of affairs, separation, or divorce, or the socio-pathology of waywardness and abuse of the marriage partner, it is so crucial that we show our children that we know nobody will ever replace the lost parent to them personally, but that we do all that is nessesary,(Without losing ourselves and becoming sick also, TY DR H. ), to help and restore, and protect thier lost parent. Even when that means leave them because of mental and/or emotional sickness, to protect them.

This causes them to enter into a world of making judgements way ahead of thier time, and look at some big pictures they do not have the capacity or maturity to fully comprehend yet. They are forced to grow up to fast. They have no choice, but we do.

For those of us who came up in a broken home, who found it the most important thing to do is be a good spouse and parent, we allways are in a state of thinking and acting right, because our examples were poor. We have to first realize that they were poor, and work to make our life different, hopefully we identified how things effected us, and have filed the emotions away in the round file, along with the behavior that accompanied them.

For some of us we got married before we figured those things out, and what drives us really, but in the knowledge that it was never all about us, and is now about your spouse and children, we are forced to make decsions for the best for all.

In the end though, I can only ask for the strength to do the best I can, and teach about what I did wrong, the best teacher being the examples, and what I do. Life is a gift, and even our mistakes can be seen that way, if we are willing to learn and trust we are loved.

God help us for strength to do, and just not say, what is right.

CP, I'm not quite sure what to say. I think we as parents always think, "I'm not going to make the same mistakes my parents made," and then we wind up doing exactly that. I also think we sometimes try to hold ourselves up to a higher standard for our kids than we are capable of.

Which isn't to say we shouldn't try. It's just that knowing we aren't perfect and will not always live up to our own expectations is key to preserving our own mental health.

Your children are roughly the same age as mine. They are adults now, and while it's possible to have adult interaction with them, they are still our children.

I find periodically (and I've told my DD29 this) that when she approaches for something specific, I wind up putting on my "dad hat." There are just some things a parent must do as a parent and not as just another adult. That's our "special position" in life.

Sometimes we're up to it and sometimes we're not. It's the effort that makes us human, not perfection.

I have heard it said before, "The Apple does not fall far from the tree", in relation to our parents, and seeing good things and strong character in both my parents, along with all the human frailties, I can use those things to build myself up, or tear myself down. Probably to thier credit, rarely did either one of my parents ever felt sorry for themselves, or let me or my younger sister either. There is where my relationship with God began, because I was told I had one then, and of course once you knew that, reguardless of how many excuses you made, lol, He saw the truth in your heart.

But even then, human example, the treatment of others, plays a role in how we percieve ourselves, and many times its hidden in the fabric of what appears normal. I wasn't gonna make this all about me, just an observance in a general sense in life, but I will use myself and parents as an example.

My Dad was incredibly hard on himself, worked day and night, ussually sleeping 4 hrs a day, physical manual type labor, tried to allways have a smile on his face, but under the surface he was not happy, and it was that temper that we were allways aware of, and feared, of course, we were just children. We respected Dad, but we also knew how unhappy and scary he was under the surface, and how tender and sweet he could be also, if he would let himself. I loved my Dad, and whatever he told me to do I would do my best fearlessly to do, not because it was part of some master plan he had,(Although I knew of it),but because I needed his approval, so I could sleep at night, instead of worry.

See I had a plan also, I was going to make my Mom and Dad proud of me, and it was a tall order, because somehow I beleived also that I was not good enough yet, just like he did. The insecurity he had and felt, which me and Mom talked about later over the years, was not ever clearly identified as to where it came from, but he was driven, and he passed it down to me, almost in a way that drove me away.

If I had not seen a different side of him than that, on my own, because I loved him and wanted him to have his dream of a house so he would feel good about himself, I think I would have done much worse in my life. Thank God for my Mom, teachers, the rest of the family, the ability to see through books and expanding my imagination and broadening my mind.

My Mom saw him as selfish and only interested in himself, I agree that was true, but it was his fears that drove him, and also made him paranoid, when he would say his family was against him. There was that line I was never going to cross, where my dreams were more important than my families, where thier self-esteem was subject to my approval, where love was given out conditionally by my conditions only.

I thought about those things starting at about the age of 8, and I had no idea really of anything yet, I was to young. I was unbalanced, trying to handle things beyond my capacity, taking on a role I shouldn,t have, but I had to out of nessesity for survival inside.

My problems were nothing compared to others, and I can only understand very little in comparison to someone like my late wife, who also loved her severly alcoholic Mom, who was the embarrassment of the whole town, as she was told time and again not to ever be like her, and as she grew up looking like her, and being deathly afraid of becoming her. In the end it was that fear that took my wife, and the obsession with it.

To me Fred, we all inherit the gene structure of our parents, and it is up to them, and to us as parents, to overcome with the powerful tool we have of humility to God, to understand ourselves, and teach our children how to overcome ourselves. We have been "re-gened", by a loving God, into the likeness of his Son. If I can step back and look at myself through Gods eyes, I can take myself less seriuos, and get objectivity lost in fears blindness and myopic obsession with my needs I think are not met. To be able to overcome my own natural drives by submission to something bigger than I, and understand it is not all about me, is something I want to give to my children, and is the best thing about being thier biological parent, that I can help them understand themselves, because they are part of me.

My parents are both very strong people, with many positive attributes, but our strength can also be our weakness, when its all we can see about ourselves. I guess thats where its said, "Pride goeth before a fall", and again thats the human condition, thank God we have him to pick us up and dust us off and set us right again down the path of life, we are allways children of the Father.


This is along the same thought as I have about it Fred, and I understand the "Dad Hat" lol, yeah, in a way I have to say, "Do what I say, not as I do", because they also see my humanity and weakness. I have blown my top and not seen the whole picture either around them. I still am a work in progress and God is not finished with me yet.

I have more to say but need to take a break and organize my thoughts. This thread was dedicated to the examples shown to children and how it has effected us or can effect children of those couples who are considering divorce, or are divorced. How any of us might be able to help, or share experiences. The worse feeling in the world to me is feeling alone, in anything. I think it is even worse for children.

All we can do is our best and openly admit our mistakes to our children...they will learn both from what we did right and what we did wrong...and they will see both because they have lived with us and know us well.

Divorce is not the unpardonable sin, but it does carry with it consequences that are often visited on the children of divorce...that's why it should never be entered into lightly, but we all know there are instances where it could not and should not be avoided. Perpetual cheating is one of those instances...abuse is another. We must also teach our kids that we should have enough respect for ourselves to not accept abuse, and forgiveness does not always mean staying in a situation or accepting it as it is.

I agree with that Kay, and the most important thing you can do for your children is give them your time, be honest, about everything, including that there are no gaurantees in life. It is short, precious, and filled with challanges to truth, and our concepts of what is valuable.

Even parents who have given thier children everything, cannot give them the gift of themselves, all they can do is provide a safe place to grow, without unessesary drama. If they chose to make mistakes later that are dangerous and destructive, there is no sense in blaming oneself, as the truth is they allways had a choice, to be free or in bondage.

I did also, and I stayed way to long and for all the wrong reasons, good intentions, hope of recovery, feelings of guilt. I have come clean with my children, and they understand it completly, and have not shown signs of repeating that behavior, or of falling into addictive behavior like Mom did. It seems that at least that part of the curse that gets handed down through generations was avoided, something else my wife was afraid of, but at quite a cost.

Now I am in that place in rebuilding my own life, allowing the past to be behind us, and allways prepared for questions from them if they ask. Its comforting to know the truth stays the same, and we do not have to make exceptions to it, according to our emotions or past. That is what I draw upon to advise, so it doesn't have to be personal from me, but objective from God, and those who believe His word is real, and he warns us of the consequences.

I have lost that place of the wise old Dad who knew what was best, to some extent, but whatever I did in love for them, has stuck, even if done with extreme emotional attachment to Mom, outside what made sense at the time in human relationships. The hardest part was watching them also have to experience her stubborness and denial, seeing how in the past, what they thought was strength, was hiding fear, when we were all trying to help her with her addictions, once they knew about them. That to was the worse way to learn about it, but they did learn.

I thank God for the years she was well, and that they knew her then, and that they know that she loved them, with all of her capacity she had. I also thank God for whatever strength I have to have avoided such destruction, and how I have lived without expecting anything handed to me, but be happy with what I have, and willing to accept opportunity as it comes, to have and do more. Fairness, reality, and common sense has kept me grounded, and I expect that will keep my children also.

Its important for at least one Parent to keep thier head screwwed on straight, and even though I should have left the marriage, or never went back untill she agreed with AA, I at least did not fall so far down the hole as she did. The addiction issues and fear that drove them were at the core of some deeper problem with security, and that was what I was married to really, as I took on all that also, as fools sometimes do. Like Mel says,"The only thing worse than not keeping a promise is keeping a bad one". So that can be put to bed now. I never was going to help her or save her. I was not a Knight in shining armor. I was a good guy, a patient and understanding guy, a hardworking and supportive guy, but I was also a crutch for her. My kids see that also and forgive me for my weakness.

But what I need most is self-respect, and to teach them to respect themselves also. Because I let so much go on, for so long, in the name of forgiveness and my fear of loss, I have lost some respect from my kids. As a father I want them to learn how to act and see me respect myself, so they will be encouraged. I trust what I can respect, as also I believe they do also.

Will they or should they respect me for staying in a "Plan A" of sorts for so long in the name of taking the abuse for a chance of the greater good coming though in the end? Even though it DID wear me down and I lost respect for myself? I hope not, but that is the lesson I taught them, that I hope is overshadowed by the years before the relapse, when things were better. When Mom was just "impossible" to reason with, and Dad just worked to many hours, to provide with honor for his family.

My biggest problem was I didn't get out when I should have, and did not have any support to do so, along with my propesity to stay in tough situations, with childish adults, that I learned as a child.

Funny how us people are, old habits die hard, Like Fred said in his post, we can make the same mistakes as our parents, even when we want to get free from them when we are young, they are allways with us at some level.

One thing I have learned over the years and through all this, is I can't trust my emotions. I have gotten into terrible trouble trying to save women who do not want to be saved, and although I ussually shirk off those feelings and avoid dumsels in distress, I end up falling for that very attribute anyways, because I feel responsible. Many wonderful sweet women have I known that didn't present any challange, and I was not interested. I needed a leash on my ego, and God has provided it. For the first time in my life I am in therapy for all that crap, and I have nobody depending upon me or to blame for my future desisions. All I have to take care of is myself, and that is allways supposed to be our first priority anyways right? Respect ourselves, then you can share it with others if you see eye to eye.