Ok so it's been 5 months since final d day and NC letter and things seem to be improving slowly slowly, but there are still so many frustrations that I am really grateful to see others are also struggling with!

WH A went in for 6 years, I knew about it after the end of the first year and was gaslighted (I see now) into understanding he needed a friend and that they could be just friends. Yes I know.....stupid. I always hated his relationship with her and never really believed but...he was considerate, loving and kind at home and apart from the times I went off at the deep end about it, things were OK ish.

Nov last year I found an email saying how much he loved her and at that point said I was going. If they were so perfect for each other.....much begging and pleading from him and I agreed to stay provided she was out of the picture totally. He was also honest and said that although only occasionally they had still been having sex last time in a public toilet in a car park......how skanky and he's 52 for heavens sake. Complete lack of respect he could at least have got a room!!! Still I guess it does show how much he thought of her.

NC letter was sent and as far as I am aware there has been no contact. Yes I exposed to everyone inc her H as she had been a close friend of mine I knew most of her friends and family.

He hasn't changed his mobile number, emails all went from work (I found the account hacked it and saw stuff that was upsetting but was also able to verify stuff he'd told me about her pressurising him and him trying to keep it as friends) there were very few from him as he doesn't really do writing.

He says he will tell me if she has contacted and besides there are ways she can contact him if she wants to. I have nothing currently to lead me to think he is in contact. Besides he really was struggling with all the pressure during the last year of the A and I am sure wanted out but she is such a drama queen that he was worried what she'd do so I think if it were to start again, I would see the impact fairly quickly.

He doesn't talk, gets upset, angry and defensive when I try and talk about my feelings, he does still justify a bit about how it was my fault it went on as long as it did and so on. He certainly won't get on board with MB but we are doing lots of UA time and we are gentle with each other and work to meet needs.

BUT

I struggle with my feelings, I get hooked into repetitive thoughts about the A and how and why that I know there are no answers for. He does love me I know and does lots of stuff to show me, but I am a woman and need words, intimate conversation is my highest EN but despite everything I don't get it.

I find the whole SF thing tough, he is a good lover and we do have good times but for me it is often physical not emotional and I miss the connection (I hate that word, he and Ginge had a 'connection" bleugh).

So I have days when all is well and days when I just want to walk. He knows if I discover they are in contact I will walk, not coming back to the place I was in over Xmas. He calls that my threat! I call it a fact.

We don't talk about the A often last time it came up was about 6 weeks ago but we also don't seem to talk much about anything either.

Just venting really, but ideas on how to get him to meet my need for intimate conversation would be gratefully received.

I look after me, I have many good things in my life, a job I love and a couple of good friends.

Sorry it's so long and thank you for reading!

He certainly won't get on board with MB Thats the problem! Until you get him to commit to a plan you are limping along in a pre-A state of your Marriage. No EP's are in place to help you feel protected either. You are going to have to set the rules to remain in the M with a wayward. Boundaries. It seems you agreed to continue living in the M as it was. Whats he got against MB by the way?
For a man to really fulfill your top need of conversation he will have to educate lovingly himself on how you like it. With you coaching him some. He will have to dwell in your interests and give you UA in the conversation with no distractions. But first he has to have a plan and know what you need.
Your still relying on intuition to drive your M. Kick off a plan. Look where intuitions gotten most of us. I would get him to agree to read SAA with you and discuss some principals as a limited test to see what he thinks for 30 days. If after those 30 days your M isn't better you will throw the book away and try one of his plans to make a better M. But demand something dont just forgive and forget. Its not possible and your M will never heal.

Take a listen to today's radio show. On it, Dr. Harley talks about the three things required for recovery of a marriage.

1. Absolutely no contact between affair partners.
2. Total transparency - removal of the conditions that made the affair possible
3. Establishment of romantic love through meeting each other's emotional needs.

Wiggling on any of these three will not lead to recovery. How many of these are being applied in your marriage? Hils has a great suggestion. Try it the MB way for a period of time and if your H has something better then, let him suggest it.

AM

Tanam,

Sorry you are here.

Yep he is generally unrepentant although he has talked about the damage that he did to me, to her and to our marriage. He has said that he is sorry for the pain and sorry for the mess he got himself and us into. Yes I know that the A was 100% his mess, but he hasn't got there yet, he is still justifying and bringing up my faults, but that get less and most of the time we are lots better than before the A. I would just like more conversation! He has always said he loved me, and I believe him, it took me getting tough and strong to end it and make him wake up. Lets be honest he didn't need to tell me about the public toilet sex, but he felt he needed to to ensure that I knew the worst so I appreciate that.

He won't get on board with MB as he sees it as psycho babble but I have printed out a couple of the articles and he has read them tho doesn't discuss. He is in IC too and is considering doing some MC at some point.

I am as sure as I can be that he's not in contact, I am in contact occasionally with OWH and he is also clear there is no contact. She apparently is angry that I know so much and told her H everything. I just wish I had told him all when I knew initially, but then if wishes were horses.....

As to MB plans, it's possible to work them as in UA time, and we have lots of that, and it's good, we do spend all our free time together and do lots of things that are strengthening our relationship.He is open and honest and transparent in that he does not have a password on his phone, I can access it whenever and have access to bills. Can't change his work email as its his company but to be honest if she wants to get hold of him she can just ring his work... thats a public number.

I am not really concerned about the possibility of on going contact, in a lot of ways the hardest thing for me to deal with over the last 5 years was him trying to convince me it was just friends and being 'OK' with it. If he wants the ongoing pressure, with the knowledge that if I find out I go and I go messily, thats his problem.

I agree with DR H that continuing to rehash the A is damaging and so we don't do that. We are focussing on recovery and moving forwards. He is ashamed of his behaviour and wants to show that he's changed. I would love him to be on board with MB, but he's not yet although is with the plans to recover if that makes sense.

Armymamma: we have those 3 things in place and are working on it, yes its a long road, the vets say 2 -5 years, we are only at 5 months and some things are still raw. We have been together 23 years, and want to be together so we have work still to do!

Hils : how do I coach him?

Today is a good day, we are both working from home so although we are is different rooms to aid concentration, we have time for little chats, touches, kisses, cups of tea etc!

Thanks for yr comments, I do appreciate the time you have taken to reply.

WARNING - YOU ARE ENTERING THE CYNICAL NEVERGUESSED ZONE!

Go ahead, try to reconcile these two statements:

He won't get on board with MB as he sees it as psycho babble...He is in IC too and is considering doing some MC at some point.

Give up? Okay, my turn:

"Damn! Six years of having two women fawning over me - I sure miss that fun! Well, wifey wants me to get all emo and learn how to create a wonderful, fulfilling marriage. Yeah, RIGHT! I'll do the IC-shuffle, and make vague statements about future MC activity, but I'll just bide my time until Tanam drops her guard, and I'll hook up with another "piece" again - maybe the same one, maybe another."

I hope I'm wrong - but, like your thread-title intimates, his "words" (including those in IC?) are much grander than his "actions".

IC-s usually do not focus on improving your marriage, they can even cause a great deal of harm because IC only hears his lopsided lifestory and makes suggestions based on that.



Uhh... What about OWH and their children?

Is there any way you can call to Steve Harley? I've heard he is really good in getting reluctant WS's on board.

Hils : how do I coach him? Several ways to coach him on it but it takes 45-60 days to start developing a habit. (I'm in training My WWs top EN's is also IC,) I know men on this board and myself that look for topical material we may think you would be interested in. You can suggest those topics but HE has to understand. Until he does believe in psycho babble its an uphill battle.
Also can I ask what are his TOP 3 EN's? If SF is in 1,2 or 3 you have some work to do based on the physically being there but not emotionally , my wife said the same thing. IE Romantic Love. If he feels that non connection it will not motivate him to fill your EN's. (quite possibly the root cause of his In Fidelity...dunno) When a man says hes connected for me it means good SF,Affection and Admiration. If my wife does these well Ill gladly talk her head off.
If his top EN,s are also admiration you gotta throw some praise lines to him every day, Look for those things to compliment him on ETC ETC ETC. The key is understanding the EN's Importance in being met exclusively in the M with WORK. We do it naturally when we first started dating because we have motive. He also has to have motivation now through focused action's.
If you go to church a good book for him to read is Love and Respect. It takes a scripture based program not all that different than DR H's ten concepts. But backs it with Writings in the Bible. It will at least move his mind to learning.
But If he doesnt agree to learn these things with some type of recovery plan. Another A is in the wings as EN's have to be met. They are so powerful that somewhere, somehow they will be met. Even if you have to bounce from person to person to meet them. Or you plow ahead in an unloving and uncaring M like many out there do.
EP's and a Recovery Plan must be a condition to a WS. No exceptions. Then lastly it takes wanting to be happy and to make your spouse happy with the rule of Care.
If you cant get a commitment from him to do this you may have to force him with love. Make it his choice. Tell him everything you told us here and tell him you are not willing to remain in a M thats not filling your EN's or offering you protection. It a hard line to draw I can assure you.
Yep he is generally unrepentant although he has talked about the damage that he did to me, to her and to our marriageShe doesn't factor in..Flag
I agree with DR H that continuing to rehash the A is damaging and so we don't do that. After the WS agrees to SAA plan with NC and a plan of restoring RL.
Lots of your comments you make throw flags out to me. Probably the best advice you could get here is to get him to agree to MC over the phone with the Harley's and quit paying an IC. Quite often they only muddy the water. You need a specialist on Marriage Counseling after an Affair has taken place. Do you go to an eye doctor for your heart? LOL. One session and more than likely he would get on board with MB plan. AND you could both be conveniently on the call right now as UA time in the comfort of your home. Maybe a perk for him?
Before you start applying pressure on him you could do a 2-3 week marathon of meeting his top EN's Really Really well with NO LOVE BUSTERS. (Yah I know argh) Top off that LB then lovingly keep requesting Ep's and MB plan all the time asserting honestly how you feel. Sometimes you have to beat a dead horse. And Im walking your same shoes every day as im 90 days out from D day x 3 with EA's. My hard line is drawn I repeat as needed that I am not willing to live in a M that doesn't fill my EN's to make US happy and protect each other with care. I require us to live as ONE I wont take second anymore. One last thought is you could try a cattle prod.

Dint see Niitse post till I submitted. Did you notice 2 serial suggestions? I agree the Harleys are superior at making them understand a plan is needed for anything in life and a plan for a happy marriage is no exclusion.

NG: Thanks, but I think what I meant in the title was that his actions are saying more than his words. Yes I want him to say all the right stuff but he doesn't but his actions are generally on track.

The reality seems to be that he wants to 'move on' doesn't like the stuff about considering his behaviour and isn't really able yet to take full responsibility for his actions in the past.

And you are right there were times when I know he liked having 2 of us meeting his EN's but the reality of maintaining that for such a long time was beginning to take it toll on his health.

She had one child who WH thought the world of, he enjoyed his role as 'uncle' to her and and if there were contact restarting, he'd want to see her, she would talk (she's 6) and then OWH would tell me, so I think it's fairly covered.

There is always the chance I know, but he does want this to work, is committed to us, it's just he doesn't do it the way I want him too. And yes there are days when I don't know if it's worth the bother. I can do it alone, maybe it would be easier too.

I don't think he is likely to hook up with her again, she became far too much trouble, as to someone else... that's up to him, but I walk if he repeats, it's very much 3 strikes and you're out!

A call to the Harley's, might work but I will try with HNHN first, see if I can get him to look at the EN questions as a starting point.

Nope start him with SAA your trying to recover from an A. Introduce 2 copy's of ENQ. Yours needs to be filled out thoughtfully and given to him to read. The blank one is to test his resolve. HNHN is a good read after SAA, then move on to LB. Then for us BS's we have to live what we believe in. Actions Vs Words with boundaries firmly seated.

Hils, you make me smile......a cattle prod!! We have a whip, will that do instead!!

BTW the SF affection and admiration are indeed his top 3 and no I don't lie there and do a shopping list, its good, I just miss the times when I felt we connected.

I think I am fulfilling his needs, no LB's for ages but I worry about rocking the boat by bringing in the SAA stuff and picking off scabs I guess. Scared to bring it up in case of an AO which are real LB's for both of us.

He's a good man, he tries, he does good stuff, I just want him to talk to me about his feelings, whats happening in his head and no matter how I try to get there he is too defended.

some of the women on this board don't know how lucky they are to have emotionally literate men.

You are defending yourself, as well. That is why you have a "missing connection." That is going to happen as a BS. Complete, fulfilling SF requires us to be emotionally vulnerable - SF in it's very essence is an act of vulnerability, even more so for a woman. Physically and metaphorically you are taking him into yourself, and you have to trust that he would not harm you in your vulnerable state.

As you refill your LB$, and rebuild the trust that he will not hurt you again, that vulnerability and intimacy will return.

Thanks HHH, I needed that!

Knowledge is power. He can do this from what you are saying. But if it takes opening wounds then thats what you may have to do as in your own words "they are scabbed over not HEALED." Healing takes time but it also takes all the right things to truly recover.
Rock salt in the old 20 GA, whips and maybe a stun gun. Finish waking him up hes still groggy. You Can do it lovingly but it HAS TO BE DONE!
Im not the expert but his and my EN's are identical. I lacked skills 6 years ago to meet my WW EN's. I learned but we never really healed. Then again. Now I have resolve. Both your spouse and mine have poor boundaries. We have to decide what we will and wont accept and settle for no less.

But we need scabs they are part of the healing and what happens when we keep pulling the scab off, when do I know it's time to leave the A stuff alone in that case?

The reality seems to be that he wants to 'move on' doesn't like the stuff about considering his behaviour and isn't really able yet to take full responsibility for his actions in the past.

Your words, not mine.

How exactly did FWH skip the part about "What he broke, he must fix?"

What steps did he make to bring about changes in himself to abrogate any possibility of becoming interested in another woman? I'm not referencing e-mail passwords (another account establishable in about 30 seconds), or cell-phone records (untraceable pre-paid units are for sale in every store). I'm talking about the knowledge he will need to make your marriage better, unassailable to thoughts of wandering skirts.

And this one's for you:

Why would you NOT have made it crystal clear that the needs and steps for recovery are solely to be determined by you? If you, for recovery purposes, need him to shave and paint bright blue his.....jewels, well, he'd better start gathering paint chips.

EVERY WS wants to "just get over this". No pain (to them), no gain (by them). It's in the epilogue of the "Cheater's Handbook".

I fear you and he are not "In Recovery", but "On Hiatus".

Oh, my. Make sure the paint is non-toxic, Tanam.

Just sayin'

NG is right on. I love the icon its appropriate. Hold him accountable. Allot of what your WH is saying is certainly from the WS handbook. Forgive and forget yes when compensation is made. Then you will feel safe.

I hear what you are saying, loud and clear and the reality is that to a large extent all the good stuff and all the information I want has been offered, some of it I really wish I could unknow.

We work POJA anyway, we always have, except for the obvious, we are open and honest with each other around all the practical stuff, the emotional issues clearly not enough.

A lot of the things I had been doing that made the A possible and justifiable for him, we changed a long time ago. I knew for the last 5 years what was going on, he was mainly open about his contact with her, once I knew about her, after the first year,some pretty major things changed, like we started sleeping together again, I stopped some of my less pleasant behaviours, we did more things together, we talked more. Those things still go on, it's the talking thats hard for him.

We are lots better than we were pre a and the last 5 months have been times we have both worked hard, we just don't really spell out what we do.

So really his actions speak louder than his words. His actions are good and his health is better. But I also get that he misses a friend and feels bad for her whilst also accepting the fact that she wanted to destroy our marriage. Thats got to be a hard place to be.

Today I think we need to keep on keeping on and know that things get better. I just feel sad for him.