Wow. I wrote this thread some 6 odd years. Quite interesting to see how much conversation has been sparked from it. I wrote the thread because while I read and understood what Dr. Harley was saying I also knew instinctively that, the totality of that "mold" if you will would not fit for my family.

As the years have passed we have been both c and nc. Ow and I arent the best of friends and probably never will be. However we do have an understand and communicate when needed about my stepson. Is having contact wrong for some yes and for us it isn't. It has it's ups and downs, probably a bit more than those who chose nc all along.

For MY FAMILY however we chose to have contact with this child, which in turn meant having contact with his mother. I wanted then as I do now to basically find some middle ground or basis to communicate needed information without all the hate, anger and multitude of feelings that flooded me when this journey initiated.

I am not advocating this avenue for everyone, it's not for everyone but it IS for me and my family. I just ask that you respect my choice regardless of your personal thoughts on the matter.


While I will FOREVER be thankful for finding this place I realize I have but 1 God and Dr. Harley isn't it. His plan has worked for many people and that's wonderful! We had to do what worked for us and that meant using what worked and letting go of some ways that did not. To each his or her own. But this thread was never intent to bash or trash another's pov which seems like some people's intent.

If contact DOES NOT work for you, DON'T DO IT. Period, point blank. And if it does GO FOR IT. No one should be bashed for the choices they make for their family.

ITA. Some will argue otherwise, but when an A results in an OC, there really isn't a blanket answer that will work for everyone in every situation.

Honestly writer1 that's my point. There is NO cookie cutter solution for everyone. While there are basic principles that can help guide people in precarious situations like ours, what works for one family may not work for another and that should be ok so long as each family is taken care of.

Not true. There IS a cookie cutter solution. There is NO MARRIAGE where continued contact with an OP works. That works for no family. To believe that is foolhardy and presents a risk to the marriage.

When folks come here for help, they need to be told the truth, and that is that the recovery of their marriage is HOPELESS unless all contact ends with the affair partners. That is very "cookie cutter." There are not multiple ways to recover from an affair, there is ONE WAY. And that one way is what we help newcomers achieve on this board, which is MARRIAGE BUILDERS.

The folks who advocate cutting corners almost always have terrible marriages themselves.

No one is being bashed. But saying that is a good idea for affair partners to be in contact is about like advocating drunk driving. And don't get me wrong, dear, I was a great drunk driver, but I would never advocate it for anyone. Just because I didn't get killed going drunk driving doesn't mean its smart to suggest it to others.

Anyone who continues contact with their affair partner is taking foolish risks with their own marriage. And that is fine for you to do, but it is not fine for you to come here and advocate it. I have been on this board for 10 years now and have seen a multitude of resumed affairs due to ignoring this step.

Even so, this is the Marriage Builders forum, and that is what we are all here for. Not to share reckless strategies with others.

Yes, Dr Harley argues otherwise. Unless you have saved the amount of marriages he has, you are not in a position to argue with him. Like the mission statement clearly states:

Sometimes you may hear alternative opinions that conflict with Dr. Harley's Ten Basic Concepts. These are often raised by those who have not solved their own marital problems, but still feel they are qualified to advise others. When this happens you can expect some members to explain why their approach won't work, and why Marriage Builders� offers a better solution. There are many who are offended when that happens, but please keep in mind that the ultimate purpose of this Forum is to discuss and learn Marriage Builders� concepts.

You're right, it is your choice. Everyone has a choice to either recover and have an MB marriage or not. Please respect Dr. Harley's board by not advocating something that clearly won't result in a fully recovered MB focused marriage.

Actually, I know a few families who have made C in a situation where there is an OC work. Some of them actually post here still on occasion. They claim that C works for them, and since it's their lives and their family and they would know what's working for them far better than I would, I take their word for it.

Other than the financial issues it has caused, I'm glad that we chose NC. That was the right thing to do in our case for a number of reasons, and everyone involved agreed with that decision. I can see where it would have been more difficult in some respects had we chosen to have C. But there are difficulties in choosing NC when there is an OC as well. There really isn't a perfect solution. C has certain problems (foremost being the continuing presence of the AP) and NC has certain problems (in my case, on-going, severe financial difficulties). Ultimately, I do think we made the right choice, but then the OM in our case lives on the other side of the country, has very little money, and didn't attempt to pursue custody or visitation.

All you have done here is invite the rapist into your life. That is foolish and doesn't help your marriage or your children or your mental health. All it does is make you look unstable to invite such risk into your life. Why would you do that to yourself?

I am sure there are some out there where it "works." However, I seriously doubt the marriage ever recovered. Just staying together is not a measure of success.

Telling people that is a good idea would be like me recommending smoking. I used to smoke 4 packs a day and never had any lasting health problems. Does that mean its smart to recommend smoking to others? What kind of person would do that except someone who wanted to harm others?

Rather, I prefer to take Dr Harley's word for it, who has treated hundreds of these cases and claims they don't work. That sure has been my experience in my 10 years here.

Would you also suggest I recommend smoking 4 packs to folks? Would that seem wise to you?

Sorry for my computer's inability to do the quote thingy right (very old Apple), but this was taken from Dr. Harley's letter on how to deal with infidelity that results in an OC:

"If you decide to remain married and create a mutually enjoyable future together, then the next decision you will need to make is how to treat Robin's former lover. Should he become a part of your family, with visitation rights as well as financial responsibility for raising his daughter? Or should he be out of your lives entirely?

As with the issue of divorce, this one should also be decided by enthusiastic agreement. But if you want my advice, I usually encourage a couple in your situation to keep the ex-lover away from your family. It may be difficult to engineer, but it is very important for Robin to try to avoid seeing or talking to him ever again. Granted, the affair may be over, but I am always concerned about the possibility of it becoming rekindled. If, for some reason, it is impossible to keep him away from his daughter, I suggest that you act as an intermediary, so that whenever he visits, he does not see or talk to Robin."

The hardline of absolute NC in the case of an OC doesn't seem to come directly from Dr. Harley at all. First of all, he states that whatever the couple decides (C, NC) should be decided by the couple using POJA. Yes, it is his recommendation that the couple have NC with the AP if at all possible. But he also seems to realize that sometimes, that simply isn't possible, because the AP pushes the issue and demands to be a part of the OC's life. In this case, he recommends that the WW have no direct C with the AP, in order to assure that the A does not resume. In the case where C is necessary, he suggests that the BH act as intermediary, which would require the BH to have C with his wife's AP.

Exactly. The hard line is between the affair partners. Did you not get that part?

And more recently he wrote this:

Wow.

It looks like Pep & Mel have been bumping old threads (for WHATEVER their reasons) for some days now and you didn't respond until I decided to post, giving my props & thanks to them for their support for the NC stance & UNDERSTANDING. I'm used to you ignoring me, but now, snubbing me? Or maybe I'm being too sensitive and it had nothing to do with my comments that made you post. However...

Pops & Cali...I respect you both. But are you both SURE you're not just being sensitive (just as I MIGHT have been with Pops) because you have contact (on some level, at times) and it goes against the principles that are advocated here so you're inspired to "defend" your choices (whether they're right or wrong)? Even if you don't want to be honest on this board, I know you can look at what has happened over the course of your marriage's and SEE, this policy is absolutely on target. Having continued involvement, on any level, with the OP is NOT conducive to a recovered marriage. I know you want to stand by your choices & decisions. But to defend them and pass them off to others as if they are your success story's is just dangerous in my opinion. I have to agree with ML.

You may not want to agree with Dr. Harley's policy about NC with the OP for life simply because you feel you're living & surviving through it. But has this choice truly been conducive to your recovered marriage? I can't imagine that you having any sort of C with your OP and it NOT spark negative feelings in you related to the A! Be honest with YOURSELVES. And if this is so, I'd say Dr. Harley's policy is spot-on and you guys are just trying to defend a choice you made that goes against what he advocates...and WHY he advocates it. Just because YOU'VE made a choice that you THINK you can't back out of now, doesn't mean you should advocate like it's working, and will also work for others in this situation.

Pops, what if you decided CS wasn't necessary and made the decision back then to be NC until Grace was "of age". Do you REALLY think your M would be over by now, be in the same place, or better than it is now?

Cali...I know you probably want to defend your decisions, but...be honest WITH YOURSELF sweetie. Come on now.

I have to agree with ML here. You guys really do need to stop advocating YOUR approach to MARITAL RECOVERY if it goes against the policy of MB.

Really.

4eva

And sometimes these people have just gotten used to living with their decision.

This is not the same as having a fully recovered marriage with the BS (or WS) no longer being affected by that contact either. And I think, as long as the C is affecting either spouse, the risks are still alive.

mel

your byline says "happily recovered for 9 years"

what does the term "fully recovered marriage" mean to you

is it a marriage where there is romantic love between the couple

is it a marriage where each person trusts the other

is it a marriage where the couple works together towards a common goal

is it a marriage where there is support for each other

is it a marriage where there is complete honesty

please explain

A reminder to posters that the purpose of our forum is to help posters understand the Marriage Builders program and not personal philosophies. If you can help in that respect we welcome your posts. If not, we ask that you refrain from posting.

This is a forum that we intend to watch more closely to ensure that Marriage Builders concepts are closely adhered to.

If you have any questions, please email myself or Justuss, the board administrator. I would ask that you all get back to our board's purpose, which is Marriage Builders.

Melody I am a rape victim and find your remark "All you have done here is invite the rapist into your life." more than highly offensive. So please don't compare ow/dh affair to a rape it is FAR apart, very far a part. And by saying ow was a rapist that would mean the dh is a rapist too and that isn't the case.

I am not saying I am advocating one way or another C or NC. I know Harley's position. I was not GIVING advice for any direction. I was seeking input from BOTH side as to how I, not dh but I could find a middle ground as I KNEW I as the wife would more likely than not deal with OW more because of her son.

We, dh and I, discussed what was desired and wanted in our marriage. We discussed the MB principles and have used many of them. But NC was not a viable option for us. In our situation I have primary contact with ow not dh and it works well for all of us.

NC is a much easier option, I admit, and works very well for a lot of recovering marriages I have seen. But we ultimately didn't feel lead down that road.

You can say we let terrorist in and all the rest but if that truly be the case the terror was let in by the spouse who swung the door wide open and while having nc does help it does not negate what happened and doesn't neccesarily prevent an affair from happening again. It puts up a boundary from the op but there's a whole big world out there. We just have to pray over our marriages and build each other up instead of tear down. Good luck.

Fully recovered by Marriage Builders standards. That is what is meant.

4eva

no i do not feel i am just defending my choices or that i have just become used to our circumstances

i do feel that i will support anyone on this forum with the decisions they make regardless if it agrees with my own choices or not.

whether some here agree or not (their choice) i do feel my marriage has recovered from the A

the answer to where i think my marriage would be had we gone nc

the answer is i truly feel we would be 9 years down the D road now

the om being responsible was such a huge issue to me at that time it would have been the deal breaker had we not gone the way we did