.

My vote is yes.

It's a tough one when you try to have compassion for the WS in this case though. So, instead of my human self making that judgment call, I refer to the 10 Commandments. I don't think it said "Thou shalt not committ adultery, unless there's a mental illness".

Just sayin'.

You must be kidding, you are on Marriage Builders promoting adultery? What kind of a monster commits adultery on their ailing spouse? That is a special kind of callous and cruel. What kind of a person commits adultery when their spouse lay dying?

There is no excuse for adultery and having an ailing, dying spouse is even LESS of an excuse.

How does this entitle him to commit adultery? Is there an adultery entitlement that the rest of us don't know about? What other situations qualify for this special adultery entitlement?

.

First off, he is not a "nice gentleman" he is a pig. Here is what Dr Harley told a young man who came here in despair at his father's adultery while his mother lay dying of cancer:

From "dad is cheating on mom with cancer" here

Why is this even a question? What is the right thing to do?

What part of "...for better or worse, in sickness and in health, 'til death do us part" isn't clear?

.

Hopefully live with integrity and keep my vows.

I too think it's cruel to cheat on your spouse, especially if they're ill. Doesn't mean I don't have compassion for the WS, but it doesn't make it right.

How would that be grounds for divorce? I would like to see you defend divorcing a spouse just because they are ill. How would you defend that?


How sad that he betrayed your mother in her time of need. Was your mother aware of his betrayal?

You seem to believe that an inability to meet a spouse's needs is grounds for adultery or divorce. I would like to see you defend that.

I know you weren't talking to me, but thought I'd throw some more of my two cents in.



Fred's quote already addresses this....

How does that change the principle he espoused? The principle would be the same whether it was 1 year or 30 years. Adultery is adultery no longer how long your spouse is sick. And abandonment of a sick spouse is still abandonment whether it happens 1 year or 30 years after that spouse falls sick.

What you are espousing is betrayal of the worst kind. It is one thing to betray a healthy, competent spouse, but to betray an ill spouse? That takes a special kind of selfishness and depravity.

Cypress, if you care about this jackhole, I would encourage him to not betray his wife, his conscience and his decency. Why degrade himself in his last years? Rather, I would encourage him to do the decent thing and stand by his wife. Happiness is the result of being good, not bad. Being bad never brings anyone anything more than a cheap, fleeting thrill and then the ole conscience kicks in. Why spend your last years acting like a pig?

I found a Harley article that addresses this subject:


What to Do with an Emotionally
or Physically Disabled Spouse

Letter #2

Dear Dr. Harley,
My wife suffers from Multiple Sclerosis. She has had the disease for seventeen years and is confined to a wheelchair. As you know, Multiple Sclerosis is a progressive disease and can, and probably will get even worse. Having an affair has crossed my mind lately.

My question is, how does the healthy spouse cope with unmet needs when there is no hope for the disabled spouse to meet them?

A.K.



Dear A.K.
I've noticed that people are more likely to divorce a spouse that they think can meet their needs, but won't, than they are likely to divorce a spouse that can't meet their needs. Furthermore, they are more likely to have an affair when they think their spouse could have met their need, but didn't.

It's not just the unmet need that leads people to affairs and divorce: It's also the perception that their spouses could have done a better job if they had wanted to.

So when I counsel someone who is married to a disabled spouse, and is considering an affair or divorce, I am curious to know what that person thinks his or her spouse could have done for them when in a position to do it.

Are you resentful over problems you may have had earlier in your relationship? Perhaps your wife was not as interested in you sexually as you would have liked? Or she may have shown more interest in your children or her own career than in you.

Of course, there's not much she can do about it now, but your resentment may prevent you from being emotionally bonded to her in the last years of your marriage. Don't focus your attention on the past--there's nothing you can do to change the past. Focus attention on the present and future. Integrate her into each part of your life. In spite of her disability, she is still a person who can love you. She will try to make the most of the ability that she has if you let her.

Many couples spend the last years of their marriage with at least one spouse suffering from a disability related to age. Yet, the healthy ones rarely consider an affair or divorce. Instead, they spend their last years of marriage remembering the love their disabled spouses showed them when they were healthier.

Your wife will never be healthier than she is now. I encourage you not to compare her with other women, or the way she used to be or could have been, but to look at her potential as it is today. I firmly believe that she can meet some of your emotional needs if you let her. And you will certainly give meaning to the last years of her life, as well as your own life. here

Melody,

I always enjoy reading your posts. You hit the nail on the head every time.

Yes, your right about him being a jackhole. And I will be staying far away from him.

I'm a bit concerned about your view of my dad's situation. I'd like to see it with more clarity.

Things are very black and white at marriage builders. If your married and stray its adultery. If both people are single its not. It should be that way, because poor boundaries are catalyst for adultery.

My mother was incapable of expressing love, holding a cogent conversation or remembering who we were. Maybe the answer was divorce, maybe not. No one in my family could understand why he never did it. He died of an aneurism at age 49. My mother lived till she was 70.

Maybe my dad was a monster, or maybe he was just trying to do the best he could.

Thanks

Thanks Cypress. I agree that things are very black and white at Marriage Builders, because its concepts are based on sound logical, moral principles. You don't find much of the gray fuzzy thinking that keeps some of our culture in a state of confusion. Thankfully.


If your dad committed adultery he was not doing the best he could, he was doing his worst. Like yours, my father was a cheater too. Nothing to be proud of for sure.

Melody,

Thank you

I don't disagree.

Cypress

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Cypress}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Emotional needs are not things you die without. Like breathing oxygen. Emotional needs are things you "need in order to be in love." Not things you need "in order to stay alive."

The "in order to" part is very important for a lot of reasons. This is one of them. Another reason we often see is when someone's spouse is in withdrawal they often claim they have some bogus emotional need like "time alone." Time alone may be something someone needs for some reason, and they may be emotional about it, but since it never makes anyone fall in love it is not something they need "in order to be in love" and hence it is not an emotional need.

You need to eat, right? Well, not really ... I have known of people who have deliberately starved themselves to death for various reasons. To establish the context of the need there has to be an "in order to" phrase. You need to eat "in order to stay alive." If you don't want to stay alive, you don't need to eat.

You need eggs. Well, not really. You can get along without eggs just fine. Some people never have eggs at all. But you need eggs "in order to make an omelet," right? There's just not much of a way to make an omelet without eggs. Again, context. What do you "need" the need "in order to" do?

You need intimate conversation, recreational companionship, sexual fulfillment, and affection, right? Well, you only need those things "in order to" be in love with the person providing them. You certainly don't need them "in order to stay alive" or "in order to not go nuts and start shooting people." Plenty of people in unfulfilled marriages don't get these.

I something think Dr. Harley may have confused us a bit with the term "emotional needs." He might as well have called them "emotional flowers" or "emotional buttons." They are the things that, when you have them, you feel fulfilled and feel in love with the person providing them, and when you do not have them, you feel frustrated. Push each other's "emotional buttons," and you'll fall in love with each other. Leave the buttons unpushed, and while you'll feel frustrated, it is not so serious that you must have them at all cost or risk dying or sacrificing your mental health.

He certainly does. I hear him address long term illnesses regularly, including Alzheimers and dementia. I heard him address MS just the other day.


Fidelity is also an option.

I have faced some pretty severe long-term non-need meeting in my marriage. I chose fidelity.

Dr. Harley doesn't encourage us to delve into childhood issues, much, but I think it's interesting that so many of us here have at least one wayward parent and/or divorced parents in our past, or in this case one who contemplated going wayward.

I can't find it at the moment, but I've got a link to an offsite interview with Dr. Harley where he talks about how children of divorce have a lot more trouble forming healthy marriage relationships.

(Guess I'll pause here for a rueful "Thanks, Mom." Then I'll quit navel-gazing at my past lest it start to become an excuse for anything.)

In this radio program from 2006, Dr. Harley answers to a man whose wife is severely disabled and not meeting his needs. He makes several comments about what typically happens when one spouse becomes disabled.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=1322

These are great posts, Markos and I agree 100%. I think some do miss the point that emotional needs are relevant in the context of a romantic relationship. Like you said they are not needs like food or oxygen that one needs to stay alive. One does not NEED to have a romantic relationship.

I thought it was interesting that Dr Harley said in the radio clip that most don't cheat when their spouse is critically ill. Rather, the tendency is to enthusiastically tend to the disabled spouses needs and remain faithful. This situation reminds me that principles are not something to be observed only when its easy, but when its hard. Otherwise, one can't claim to have principles.

Dr Harley said in that radio clip that it is "very unusual" for spouses to cheat when their spouse is critically ill.

Last time I checked, the marriage vow - the promise - was "in sickness and in health." It doesn't say, "until once of us is incapacitated to the point where we can no longer..."

Markos,

You bring a great perspective about children of divorce and cheating parents. I can see why Dr. Harley does not go into childhood issues. Even if parents commit adultery, there is never an excuse for their children to do the same in their marriages. Even adulterous parents need to make their children know how wrong it is.

Cypress

I am appalled that someone even had the nerve to ask if this is OK.

I would have loved to have heard this clip, it won't load for me.

I really don't have much to add to the main question being asked here (because obviously yes it is still adultery even if the spouse has Alzheimer's - which runs in my family by the way). But this statement caught my eye. Maybe it's because I was raised by a single mother/OW, who even 40 years after her A with my father sees herself as the "victim" in the entire situation and blames my father for making all sorts of false promises to her and never leaving his wife for her.

My question is, how on earth is an unrepentant wayward supposed to let their children know that what they did was wrong? As we've seen, there are many people who fall into that wayward mindset and never get out of the fog. My mother is a great example of this. It'd be nice if she'd wake up and see the error of her ways, but it ain't gonna happen.

And I in no way intend to use that as an excuse for anything that I've done. I know what I did was wrong, in spite of the fact that my mother never would have told me so. My H tried the whole exposure thing with her after I told him about my A. Didn't get him very far. She had no problem with me having an A. She didn't say a word one to me about it. But that's no excuse for my behavior.

I will agree that it's much more difficult for those of us who come from completely dysfunctional families to have a successful marriage, but I don't think it's impossible. And I don't think my chances of success should hinge on whether or not my mother ever emerges from one of the deepest wayward fogs imaginable.

This touches a nerve w/me as my beloved grandmother passed away last year due to a stroke but was suffering from severe dementia beforehand. She could not walk, talk, but could think clearly. She was in her last days, a prisoner in her own body.

She and my grandpa had been married 70 years. He did not desert her. He stayed by her side. He held her hand through it all.

Six weeks after she departed earth for God's presence in heaven, he decided he had to join her. He passed away too.

So WHY ON EARTH would we ever condone cheating on a spouse simply because they have a debilitating DISEASE or accident or problem that they themselves could not ever want to have in the first place?

I feel anybody who does that to their spouse is lower than dirt and they best not cross my path.

To Writer, it must hurt knowing your mom is a perpetual wayward. It is sad. My mom is now one too, as we thought she had cheated on our dad before he passed. Some waywards NEVER wake up, forever blaming their problems and their affairs and moral insufficency on others rather than doing the brave thing and looking at the mirror for the source of their problems.

My mothers' cheating has cost her 2 daughters and 3 grandchildren. I am permanent NC with my own mom because of the horrible things she has done.

ITA with you, writer. My mother (who has Alzheimer's BTW, is in fact in a 30+ year affairage. One of the things that shocked me into ending my A was the fear of becoming my mother. My H and I are both children of divorce and both of his parents were adulterers. No excuse, we both know right from wrong and we both did wrong.

His mother supported his adultery. She was never sorry she had an exit A from her marriage to his father.

My children are being taught that adultery is wrong. Unfortunately they are also very shy of the idea of marriage thanks to our lousy example. We are working on turning that around by them seeing how happy we are now.

This is indeed an interesting thread. One of the things that hit me was a statement somewhere to the effect that just because someone's emotional needs aren't met is not grounds for divorce. I was in what I thought was a 23 year loveless marriage with my kids' dad and I gave up first...I did give it a chance and was willing to work things out but he went ahead and got a divorce. For the rest of my life I will regret that we didn't make it. Neither of us were bad people, we just needed to learn to communicate better and how to show love to each other in a way the other could perceive it...nothing that marriagebuilders couldn't have helped with. This is something I wish I'd understood back then. He is now remarried but it's not the happiest, but he's reconciled to it...it just goes to show, we can trade partners but all we're really doing is trading problems. The problem is, we're people, we aren't perfect, we all have things to work on. I remember a preacher preaching on that subject once, he said when people encounter a problem they think the solution is to change their job or their partner, instead of seeing it through and working it out, and all they do is change their problems. Maybe our biggest problem is ourselves.

It shouldn't need commending, it should go without saying, but I commend anyone that sticks by the stuff, through thick and thin, whether is sickness or in health, til death do they part. That used to be a given.

I agree, seeking a way out of a marriage through affairs or divorce prevents us from dealing with our own issues. Sticking it out and working through problems in a marriage, is the harder path. But the personal growth along the way brings a happiness the couple could only have dreamed of before.

I believe that God gives us challenges that require us to learn important lessons about ourselves. Its more than just choosing good over evil, we have to learn something along the way.

I'm proud to know those in these forums that were able to learn their lessons and save their marriages.

This has always been my fear, the fear of becoming my mother. It's difficult for me to look back at my life and see that I've made many of the same mistakes that she has made. I think (hope) the difference is that I actually realize the things I did were indeed mistakes and have taken (am taking) steps to own my mistakes and stop doing those things. But it's a constant struggle. I very much think that my fear of becoming my mother played an important role in my decision to end my A. My mother had no particular problem with my A. That's one of the things that broke through the fog and made me realize just how wrong what I was doing was.

Interesting. My mother did become her mother. She is in an affairage to this day as a result.

She also became such a USER, using other people (including her children) for her own gain, and not placing any value on them at all, that she hasn't seen me in many years. (This is also for my own protection. I don't want to become my mother! And her number one mistake that ultimately led to her downfall was continuing to see and justify her mother.)

Unfortunately, cutting my mother out of my life isn't an option for me. I'm pretty much all she has. She lives with my 89-year-old grandmother right now (my mother never left home and has pretty much lived with my grandmother her entire life). After my grandmother passes away, my mother has made it pretty clear that she intends to live with me for the remainder of her life. Just typing that made my stomach turn. But there's not much I can do. She has uncontrolled diabetes and had to quit working last year because she broke her ankle and that, along with her bad knees (she's very obese), makes it difficult for her to get around.

I have actually considered entering the witness protection program to escape this fate. Do they offer witness protection to people with horrible parents? They should.

She doesn't have to live with you. You are kidding yourself if you think that is your only option in dealing with a disabled mother (in this country anyway). My grandmother lived on her own---with many physical problems (including diabetes) for many many years. She also didn't drive at all. She also had no money except for what she received from the government. She was fine. She went to a Senior center for lunch every day. She was cared for in every way. My mom took her to doctor visits and home health visited when necessary.

Do you know when she stopped living alone? When my user Aunt was widowed and needed my grandmother's income to help her pay her bills.

So no...your mother doesn't have to live with you.

The difference in my situation is that my mother has never lived alone. She's always lived with her parents. My mother has never fully supported herself or fully taken care of herself.

Right now, she lives in my grandmother's house with my grandmother, my aunt, and my uncle. When my grandmother passes away, the house will go to my mom and uncle (they are brother and sister). My aunt and uncle can't stand my mother, so I don't see the 3 of them living there together after my grandmother is gone without killing each other. What will probably happen is the house will be sold and my mother and uncle will split the money. The house isn't in great shape (and neither is the housing market here) so I don't know how much my mother's half will be, but even if it's enough for her to get by on, I can't see my mother figuring out how to live on her own after 60+ years of someone else always being there to take care of her.

You can certainly help her figure that out....my mom did all of that for my gm. My gm also had never been on her own....went straight from her parents house (as the youngest and spoiled child) to her husband's house and he took care of her until he died. Still and yet she didn't have to live with any of her children.

You are in control of yourself writer. Not your mother. I do believe we have a certain amount of obligation to care for aging/dependant parents, but that doesn't extend to the point that we are harmed...especially in this country where it is possible for aging people to live alone for a long time.

Well put SW. Writer, please stop being so fatalistic. If having your mother live with you would harm your health or your marriage, you are not obligated to do it. The only one who can force that choice upon you, is you.

My mom is certifiably nuts and there's no way I could live with her, nor could any of my siblings, it'd be the end of our own sanity.

When the time comes, look into an assisted living facility. If she (by then) owns any property, they will want her to sign it over to them if she doesn't have money to pay their fees, but if she has nothing, they should still take her for whatever assistance she can get from the government. We are required to honor our parents and the Bible doesn't specify if they've earned it or deserve it, but we aren't required to live with them if it's damaging to our own mental health or our marriage.

Not that I have any idea what this has to do with the original question of this thread (which seems to have been settled so I guess the TJ is okay), but there has always been this assumption (on my mother's part) that she would live with us after my grandmother passed away. I don't know quite how this happened, other than the fact that besides my grandmother, I'm really the only family my mother has (that will still speak to her at least).

I know I have other choices. I think I'm just afraid of my mother. A lot of people are. Her wrath is quite a scary thing, so over a lifetime, I've learned not to cross her. It isn't healthy, I know that. It's just a very difficult mindset to even think about breaking out of.

My H seems to think it'll be fine if she comes to live with us. He somehow thinks that we'll be able to deal with her negativity and verbal abuse and general nastiness. He thinks if we talk to her about what she does and make her understand the affect that her words and actions have on other people, that she'll have a desire to change. It is possible. I do believe people can change. But it's hard for me to believe that she will. I've known her for 40 years and she's always been this way. It's difficult to think about someone breaking out of that mold after so long, and I think it would have to come from within her, and right now, it isn't.

The thing is, I do love my mother in spite of her faults. And I hate hurting people (and letting her know that I don't want her to live with us would hurt her).

Ultimately, I realize that my marriage (and my sanity) come first, and if having her live with us would jeopardize either of those things then I know we would have to find alternative arrangements for her.

Good to know. Although I think the fact that just thinking about her coming to live with you creates a knot in your stomach is a good indication your sanity will be jeapordized.

Yeah, that's probably true.

Easy, honor your vows. Marriage is not about what you get, but what you give. You get an opportunity to prove that your words really have meaning if you honor your vows and give even when you are not receiving in return.

In my opinion, and I reserve the right to be wrong, but that's the problem today. Too many people looking to get, and not enough looking to give.

Why would anyone entertain the notion of a romantic relationship with someone so willing to betray the HELPLESS person they vowed to love and cherish forever?

I sure wouldn't consider such a person qualified to be my romantic partner.

Cypress has left the building.... and has taken up residence ??????
Where?

Hopefully she followed through with this and is indeed staying far away from this man.

Cypress has not left the building. I'm just a bit mortified.

My original post was written in a moment of insanity. I'm still pulling the splinters out of my head. I'm ready for more 2x4s.

I will not ever have a relationship with this guy.

I am willing to answer any questions about my moment of foggyness.


Cypress/

Welcome back Cypress!!!!!!

Don't stress over it. You've edited your posts, but if I recall correctly you said that you had a parent who chose to pursue an extra-marital affair because of a long-term illness.

It seemed normal to you. Now that you've asked the question and thought it through, you realize it was wrong. It's hard to accept that your parent made a serious mistake. It's hard to change a mindset that you've held for a long time.

((Cypress))

Welcome back. I agree with Kirby. And I understand where you are coming from. I came from the same kind of background after all. {{{{{{{{{{{{{{Cypress}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

If you read this and wonder where 'the rest of my story is' follow THIS LINK .

On that note, here are my comments on several responses to the thread linked at the beginning on disabled spouses and adultery. This thread had nothing to do with me, but it sure hit some nerves as you can tell I'm sure!

All the colors and highlighting is mine!


The kind I married. Thank you ML.


The 'I do'?


Thank you.


This one made me cry. And keeps me fighting for my daughter. I want to hear him defend himself against the paper trail of proof I have.


That helps me as well, more than you know.


Reading that letter when I saw it helped me a lot, it makes so much sense. I kept this part of the quote because it hits me the hardest. I'm not in a wheelchair, there was not a single need of his that I did not, could not, or would not, have filled if given the chance, especially in the early years of our marriage.



My ex in laws are like that, married somewhere around 64 years I think, still in love, and mom has been physically unhealthy for a long time, dad is still standing by her and I have no doubt when one goes, the other will soon follow. They remind me a lot of the movie �The Notebook�.

I've thought about this as it compares to my marriage as well. Then I realized, he was cheating long before I got sick, why would I expect it to stop when I did get sick. Has to be lack of principles, glad he never tried to say he had any.


Another thank you.


They don't, can't, or won't, not sure, but it's why I am fighting to get my daughter back now. My stbxwh lives with his mother and apparently from what I hear now, one of his slimeball POSOW CA/EA bimbos. I will fight tooth and nail to get her away from that atmosphere. Even though it's looking like I might just be living in a car while I pay the lawyer...right after I get a car that is...ugh.


This made a big impact with me. My stbwxh's parents view adultery in the marriage as acceptable apparently as they both had multiple affairs. Not even sure why they bothered to get divorced, but they did.

When I confronted my POS stbxwh on the first CA/EA, SHE backed up everything he said including telling me I was crazy to think it was like a real affair, I'd never experienced a real affair if I could possibly think this was even close!

Really? I witnessed with my own two eyes my XH screwing my best friend on the floor not five feet away from me.

This first CA/EA?

HURT FAR WORSE

Why? He KNEW about the affairs my XH had and the effects it had on me AND still did it, using the excuse it wasn't 'physical sex'. Which he is now spewing his toxic to my daughter!


This is so very true. But one can only beat themselves into a brick wall for so long. It's still no excuse to break the 'forsake all others' vow until you break the 'till death do us part'. In the context of this thread however, any vow you break is the cruelest thing you could ever do.


I'm glad you came to your senses! This betrayed disabled wife appreciates it more than you know! Thank you!

email me at ohmelodylane@aol.com and I will email you the MP3. I am still reading....

Thanks for this post also, I like to believe that this is how I responded to what I best can describe as my wifes mental and emotional breakdown, fall into drugs, and following cancer till death. The infidelity which of course was another form of mental illness, well, now there is what tripped me up for so long. Was her entitlement and superiority, laziness and lieing, sneakiness and manipulation, seflishness and extreme attention seeking behavior, another form of sickness?

My wife made her own bed by her choices, and it led to sickness and death, so it was not as if she did not every chance to avoid what would lead to her eventual sickness and death. When she was first pregnant by our DD, she found out she had cervical cancer, and her reaction was to need to drink. Now for that reason, she was sure she was going to die, she had gotten pregnant outside of wedlock, her nerves couldn't take it.

She didnt seem to be too concerned for the life inside her, or the fact that because of her genetics, drinking was the worse thing she could do to herself, and would probably promote the cancer.

Later on the world has learned, clamidia which is carried by men from women to women they sleep with, is one of the common causes of cervical cancer. So it would be safe to say, in the few years prior to meeting her, because she was drinking and avoiding the doctors or taking care of herself physically in any way, being a party girl, and getting drunk and wasted with guys at bars, this is how she developed cervical cancer.

So where did the sickness come for in this case? Did it start inwardly and develop into physical sickness? It was still sickness, and what was important was I did and how I reacted, in the face of it, as it is for anyone who is with someone who is ill.

I had all the excuses anyone could have had to let her crash and burn all her life, but I chose to deal with the painful stuff she dealt out at times, and see who she could be. I beleive because I did not desert her when she found out she had cancer, even though we were not married yet, even though there were times she would dissapear to the local bar and flirt with guys, she survived the cancer because I stuck around, got her to the doctors, and made sure she took care of herself even though she had major issues.

Because of that and of leaving when she was cured of cancer but would not stop drinking, she was able to get herself under control enough to spend the younger years of my childrens life, being a great mom. The needs I missed, well the need to do the RIGHT thing, the proper thing, for a sick individual, outweighed the selfish immediate needs of the time.


So if this guy has a sick wife, and he wants his Mommy, ask him to see God, who extends mercy as the mothers heart, because its understandable he is hurting, but there is a time to be strong for others and honor what is right. He should be still be searching for ways to fill the needs of his wife, especcially in her sickness, when she really needs him.

thanks ML, sent email!

got it! thanks!

Well actually I was trying to respond to what you'd written and considered it on topic, but I'll bow out...certainly didn't mean to TJ! (BTW, the "original question in the thread" is deleted so I have no way of knowing what that was!