Welp, things fell apart tonight.

My mother offered to watch our boys so we could go out to dinner. Things were going well when all of a sudden he asked me when would be a good time to give me the "OWreport" -- I said, well I guess right now. He told me she asked him to go to a coffee shop with him this morning to grab a muffin and he told her he'd already ate. She then said well maybe we can grab lunch later and he avoided her the rest of the day.

I told him this tactic isn't going to work. That she's going to notice something is up and he's going to have to explain. He acted like I would be embarrassed if he told her the truth - to which I said not at all, go right ahead. I said I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with what I am asking and am not the least bit embarrassed. He said basically he's letting her know that I think she's a slut - to which I said, no, she is irrelevant here. What is important is that we have clear boundaries in our marriage.

He said fine, he'd tell her. I said I understand things may be awkward for him now, but that I hope he understands that things should have never got to this point and had he used good judgement wouldn't be in this pickle.

He said it's fine, that he'll get over it. Just to give him a day or two.

He then began to be passive agressive and I called him out on it. Then the conversation went back to my insecurity, how ridiculous it is he can't have a platonic friendship. I began explaining how EA's begin usually to him once again to which he said that only applies to people who are not in love with their spouse or who are dbags - which aren't applicable to him. He said I should trust him.

I told him it's not just dbags who get involved in affairs, and often it happens to people who did not intend for it to happen. I used myself as an example and said "Ok, imagine there is a guy at my work. He's fairly attractive, fun, and our personalities click. We go out to lunches, share funny stories, I really enjoy hanging out with this guy but it's only platonic. For months this goes on to where we've developed a good friendship and I can talk to him easily. One day you and I get into a large arguement. I go to work and tell this friend all about it and he agrees that I am in the right and that you aren't being fair. I begin to think that he understands me better and before I know it I am comparing the two of you. I notice when I'm with him it's light and fun, and at home we argue. Before I know it I am finding myself wanting to be around him for this reason more and more and begin imagining what it'd be like to be with him instead."

He said he could not believe I had said that. He now believes that this has happened with me, and that is why I am so "paranoid" because I've done it myself and am projecting it onto him. I repeatedly told him I have never even been close to such a situation, and that I do not go to lunch or have intimate conversations with men.

Anyway, we drove around the block several times and then talked more in the driveway. My mother was inside waiting for us so we went in. I ended up taking our three year old to urgent care because he is running a fever (ear infection) my husband has secluded himself down to the basement and I think we're no longer on speaking terms.

He is headed right into his next affair, Gail. The ones who have affairs are the ones who think "it can't happen to me." As you told him, it has very little to do with being in love with your spouse, it has everything to do with appropriate boundaries. Affairs happen every day in marriages where the couple is in love because one has poor boundaries.

It is clear that your H puts this co-worker before you and your marriage.

The reason this keeps happening, Gail, is because he has never adopted extraordinary precautions in your marriage. That should have happened after his last affair. This is why extraordinary precautions are NOT negotiable.

You understand what you are facing, right?

This is very manipulative of him. He is gaslighting you.

He is trying to get you to back down.

Does it seem rational to you that he is sulking in the basement over a discussion about a "friendship"? Does he normally stay in the basement while you rush your child to the doctor? He seems a little too angry and defensive

My FWH used the same tactics and arguments that your H is using.

It was a PA.

I hope I am wrong here ...

Snoop. Find out what you are dealing with.

Stay strong. Be smart.

Oh...if I could go back in a time machine and be where you are today.

2 years ago, I discovered texts between my WSTBXH and a single, younger co-worker who my WSTBXH had taken under his wing. He told me then that she was interested in him but that it didn't go any farther than that. He said nothing physical had happened and that he'd put an end to it. I called her and spoke to her to explain my point of view. I was soooo stupid - I believed him that he ended it, started to plan A my H (before I knew what Plan A was and before I found MB).

Fast forward 6-8 months (maybe less), my WSTBXH went full PA with her. Sex in hotels, planning future together, sneaking around, lying to me every day, hiding money...I didn't know about it for a year. I plan A'd him, then Plan B'd him but by then it was too late...the behavior was so ingrained, his head so far up his rear I couldn't extricate it. It has been the most painful thing in my life but I told him to leave and we are now D. The man I married is gone.

What I realize about my WSTBXH is that he has low self-esteem. And he needs women around him to prop him up. He has always had close relationships with women...particularly younger women whom he mentors. They prop him up. Feed his ego. The more successful he has become, the more insecure he's gotten.

I never saw this as a problem - I was always very secure. Felt I was a pretty good wife (took care of everything, dated him, stroked his ego at home) but he always had this thing inside of him with poor boundaries. He needed more.

I also discovered through snooping that at the same time of PA, he was clearly addicted to porn. Every day he looked at it.

While I can't go back in time...if I could, when I first found those messages, I would have packed up my DD3, left, and went into a VERY DARK Plan B and filed for legal separation. I wish I had exposed then. That was my gut instinct at the time. I know know that the only thing that would have worked is a hammer to my H's head - talking to him, explaining to him didn't work.

Maybe that's not the right thing for you to do but if you let an affair go on, let it become fun and secretive and exciting, they will fall in love with each other and risk everything for the high. If it's not this one, it will be another. Until he changes his boundaries, until he thinks he will lose you...but before he falls in love with her...now is the time for action. Call Dr Harley, read everything you can on affairs, read this board.

One other subject...
The OW hates you...let's be clear. Your H is probably complaining about you to her and she feels like she's a better match for him than you. I thought I could appeal to my H's OW on more than one occasion but she is a LOSER, with no self esteem either. This is why they become attracted to each other. My H's OW became a great mistress - she had to have a PA with a married man for a year. Their mutual hatred for me (and I believe now my WSTBXH had so much rage and anger for me) fueled their affair - which he admitted in a rare moment of clarity.

Be very, very careful here. I hope you never have to go through what I have and I so hope your H is not like mine.

Good luck and take care of yourself above all.

Nothing speaks louder than experience. Gail, would your H be willing to leave that job?

Gail, I've just read your thread and I am sick to my stomach for you. Please please please ask your husband to find a new job. I know he'll probalby say you're crazy but your marriage is MUCH more important than his job!

My WSTBXH started the same way. Granted, it became physical very quickly, but it started with them going for lunches, talking, sharing stories about their spouses and families...and then it became talking about their feelings and before you could blink, they were writing love notes and saying they were soulmates and couldn't live without each other.

It sounds like your husband still loves you and there's still hope for your marriage if you take swift action now! You are NOT paranoid and it is NEVER safe for men and women to spend that much time alone with each other "bonding." There's the "men and women can't be friends" cliche for a reason!! And you should make it clear that it is NEVER okay for him to spend significant time alone with another woman, ever. You are the only woman he should ever do that with.

My husband would think I was out of my mind if I pushed him to leave his job. He only began working there last Feb, and is off of probation next month and will receive a raise at that time. We also have all of our benefits through his job now. To be honest, because I know how long it took him to get this job and all of the interviews he went to, it would not be easy to do. There are two positions opening up within the next year he wants to try for and thinks they will be his dream job. He's been getting in close with the manager of this department and doing all he can to demonstrate he'd be good for the position.

We did end up talking a little last night. He was out in the garage and I went out and asked if we're not on speaking terms. He said that we are and said I didn't come downstairs when I got home. I told him he knew our son and I had come back and that I was surprised he wouldn't come up to find out what the doctor had said. Also he walked past me to go the garage and said nothing. He was full of it and was sulking.

I told him that I don't want to have arguments with him, but that this issue is the big elephant in the room. I told him I can tell he is upset. He said he is, but reiterated to give him some time and he'd get over it. He is very angry with me right now I feel, but is being passive aggressive.

I asked him hypothetically what would happen if I said "Okay, fine go ahead and be friends with her." and then six months down the road a new woman starts working in his office who was more attractive but also in a relationship. I asked if that would be okay if he went in her car, texted, facebooked, went to lunches, etc. He said no, it wouldn't because that would be different if she were attractive. The entire reason I brought this up is because he tried saying earlier that he did not find his coworker attractive whatsoever. I asked him why would it be different. I mean according to him I should just trust him, right? So whether it's a woman who is average looking, or one who is a stunning knockout, or one who is married, or one who is single - none of this should matter using his logic, because it is all about trusting him and he would never in a million years cheat.

He said it's not the same. I just stared off at the wall and didn't say much else. He was clearly agitated and we are going around in circles.

He is already there, gail. He is already in an EA even if it is only in his head at this point. He is teetering on the edge of first admitting to himself and then to HER that he is indeed attracted to her and then the slope gets very steep and slippery right to a PA. This has to be nipped now while he still feels in love with you. Set up counseling with the Harley's NOW. I was the wayward who did not find the OM attractive. The OM was my "friend" long enough to know my weaknesses and I allowed my boundaries to be moved until I was in a full blown A.

I then watched my H do this was a LD ex g/f. It was the mutual admiration society with those two until it became PA and then he HATED ME with a passion and with RAGE.

I agree he is having an EA in his head. I don't know this woman, but I have looked into her a bit on her facebook page, and just reading the correspondence between her and my husband. From what I can tell she is happy with her boyfriend. She even sent an invitation to my husband the day he deleted her off of facebook to attend her boyfriends firehouse fundraising party. She makes posts often that she misses him, and how great their weekend was.

But the thing that does make me a bit uneasy about her, not that she really matters much here, but she's been divorced twice at age 29 (bizarre imo) and she has only been dating this boyfriend a couple of months and I know her BF isn't meeting her needs to go on dates and spend time together. They can only see each other on weekends due to his schedule, and them living 45 minutes apart.

My husband is the one who has initiated most of the contact between them from what I can tell. Also, he did tell me this OW thought it was bizarre he sent her that drunken text at 2:30 in the morning.

So I don't think she is emotionally where my husband is, although I can see warning signs that she could potentially get there with the lack of time with her BF and that she has poor boundaries as well.

He on the other hand is pretty smitten with her I feel, even though he adamantly denies this. I can feel that he has feelings for her, and I think it is why he is so upset and keeps saying give him time "to get over it" - to get over her?

I also think he will break agreement we have. I'm not sure when, but I think it'll happen more than likely.

My now X had a co-worker that he was obsessed with. I think she was honorable and had good boundaries---I dont' think she ever got to where he was with her (in his head). He would have had an affair with her in an instant I believe if she was game.

He had/has a high need for admiration. There was/is a hole in him I couldn't fill...There were so many incidents in our marriage like the one you are going through. And he would try to make me feel crazy for not liking it....He would say, 'I've never known ANYONE as jealous as you!' The FACT is I am not overly jealous, but jealousy IS a normal reaction to a threat to a marriage.

Before I heard of MBs I left WH...over abusive treatment...and was gone for 18months. He STILL didn't get it. He just pretended like nothing was wrong and eventually pacified me enough to get me to come home. As I said, that was pre-MB. If I knew then what I know now, I would stayed gone then. Our son was about a year old when I left..I wanted so bad to have a famiy for ds that I ignored so much junk. The next 7 years were filled with all sorts of IB, DJ and AO on his part. I just raised my son and did the best I could. I stayed because I wanted a family for ds, but WH was not family minded.

Hindsite is 20/20 and I now know he was NEVER going to 'get' it.

Are you going to have this moved to SAA? Because I completely agree with faithful that this needs be treated as an EA. That's what I was trying to tell you earlier about not being able to unring the bell. Once ENs are met and romantic feelings develop, you can't turn it off.

There is an article on the steps of adultery by Pepperband over in SAA that would be good for you to read. By the time that my H was spending time with OW1 + OW2 and keeping it a SECRET, it was already PAST the point where he had developed romantic feelings.

I also just wanted to add that it doesn't really matter if the OW seems as emotionally invested as your H. Both OW1 and OW3 did not seem as serious about the As as my H did. OW3 is a newlywed with a baby and wrote on her wall during the same month that the A started "I have the world's best husband!!" and had a whole album devoted to pictures of herself with her H. Some women just seem to enjoy the attentions and being pursued by a married man.

Re the job, I am not sure how to proceed, if you should wait to find more evidence of contact before demanding that he leave or you should try getting him to leave now (hopefully others will chime in on this) but make no mistake about it, I don't think there is any way you two will be able to R your marriage if he stays there.

The past three weeks we've met up every Thursday to go to lunch or the Farmers Market near his office. His lunch break is not always at the same time, someone needs to be able to cover him before he can go so he always sends me a text message an hour to a half an hour before hand letting me know the time. It's usually between 11am and 1:00pm that he lets me know.

He hasn't sent one over. I sent him a message five minutes ago asking if we were going, he has not replied yet. I have a feeling he is going to give me an excuse that he can't go to lunch today, or he already went because he had a small window of time when someone could cover him.

He responded to my "are we going to go to lunch today" with "it's up to you" to which I responded "what time would be able to go" and he replied "whenever" - he's being aloof any icy with me now. I said I could be there in 30 minutes. Part of me thinks he would rather me not come, but instead is using this approach. I'm going regardless of whether or not he wants me to though.

His reaction to all of this is very telling don't you think?

He wouldn't pout like this if you said he couldn't have lunch alone with BOB or JACK, now would he?

Nope, nor would he need time to "get over" not having lunch with BOB or JACK.

gail,

again call the MB counseling center NOW. Get a plan in place to get your H on board with MB principals. If you can't afford to call the counseling center the call the radio program. Do not wait until things get worse.

(Thanks! I am sorry for your sitch too.)

If the boyscout thing strikes you as true then admiration is a biggie.

He will spend time with whoever or whatever makes him feel like a knight in shining armour. She probabaly knows it too.

I'm seeing lots of similarities Gail.

First the "she thought I was crazy for sending drunken text"
Um what I got was my H 'fell asleep' on OWs couch and she gave him hell the next morning because she already has two kids and doesnt need three.

Um yeah, that never happened It was a story made up just so I would trust the OW.

Unfortunatley its classic gaslighting for a cake eater to make the wife believe the OW is virtuous/happy in her relationship. The h knows he cant hide his symptoms of addiction, but maybe he can hide the OW's. this will make you work harder on the relationship without suspecting the real possibility of an affair.

so he has cake at hom e- and cake at work, which stays safe.

I cant tell you how many plans I made for us which got the response 'its up to you'.

Cheaters like to demonise their spouses - it gives their conscience a rest. So it sounds like sulky toddler boy is demonising you as a control freak.