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Originally Posted by schtoop
I think the real turnoff is when the pursue starts projecting themselves as weak or needy.

Men (and women for that matter) mostly enjoy the attention and admiration from someone who projects themselves as strong, knows what they want, and not shy to put forth some effort to get it. This is very affirming.

The problem is that because of past history and the pain and emotional anguish, not to mention the WS's foggy view of the relationship, it is darn near impossible for a BS to do the pursuing without being perceived as needy, which they almost always are due to the circumstances of the wayward's affair.

I know it's not Marriage Builders, but the "180 Plan" is based on showing your wayward spouse the strong, independent, and fun person you were when they fell in love with you, pretty much the opposite of "needy".

Agreed. Acting "needy" is a turn off for anyone. But, I don't think there is anyting wrong with confidently showing someone how much you love and care for them. Especially if they have a need for affection.


AKA: hurtagainbydavid, hurtingstill
Me: BW/WW 36
Him: WH 37 (2time2timer)
DD x 2: 8 and 5
H's 1st affair D-day: 10/2001
H's 2nd affair D-day: 1/16/11
My threesome w/H and OM: 7/21/11

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Originally Posted by hbd
[
Agreed. Acting "needy" is a turn off for anyone. But, I don't think there is anyting wrong with confidently showing someone how much you love and care for them. Especially if they have a need for affection.

But showing affection is not chasing, per se. It is a very different thing. Showing affection is good, chasing is not in most situations. There is a huge difference. It is effective for a wife to show her husband affection but it is not effective for a BW to "chase" a WH and try to force unwanted affection on him. The latter is a turn off.

There is something "wrong" with that strategy when it only serves to push an already detached WH away. And that is the point.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by hbd
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
hfd, I disagree. Most men do have admiration as one of their top 5 emotional needs.

Yes, but how many have affection in their top 5? That is rare. I think it's the combination of both the admiration need AND the affection need that is the exception. There aren't many men out there with this combination though.


Affection has nothing to do with being chased though. And no, Dr Harley has never said that men who have the top needs of affection and admiration like being chased. I am not following your logic on that one.

My H was chased by OW #2 (confirmed per their co-worker) and he LOVED it. He couldn't get enough of her chasing him.

Has Dr. H specifically talked about men with the combination of admiration and affection? From what I've read in his books, this is a rare combination that hasn't specifically been addressed.


AKA: hurtagainbydavid, hurtingstill
Me: BW/WW 36
Him: WH 37 (2time2timer)
DD x 2: 8 and 5
H's 1st affair D-day: 10/2001
H's 2nd affair D-day: 1/16/11
My threesome w/H and OM: 7/21/11

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Originally Posted by hbd
[

My H was chased by OW #2 (confirmed per their co-worker) and he LOVED it. He couldn't get enough of her chasing him.

Has Dr. H specifically talked about men with the combination of admiration and affection? From what I've read in his books, this is a rare combination that hasn't specifically been addressed.

Again, you are confusing affection with chasing. They are very different things. Dr Harley has never said that chasing IS effective in certain circumstances. And you have to keep in mind that we are talking about being chased by someone with whom he is emotionally DETACHED. He is emotionally DETACHED from his BW. Not so with an OW.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by hbd
My H was chased by OW #2 (confirmed per their co-worker) and he LOVED it. He couldn't get enough of her chasing him.

An OW is different from a wife, though. I think a WH looks at the OW chasing him as a chance to get some extra on the side; whereas, he probably perceives a wife chasing him as trying to keep him from having that "extra on the side", KWIM?


"Your actions are so loud that I can't hear a word you're saying!"

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by hbd
[
Agreed. Acting "needy" is a turn off for anyone. But, I don't think there is anyting wrong with confidently showing someone how much you love and care for them. Especially if they have a need for affection.

But showing affection is not chasing, per se. It is a very different thing. Showing affection is good, chasing is not in most situations. There is a huge difference. It is effective for a wife to show her husband affection but it is not effective for a BW to "chase" a WH and try to force unwanted affection on him. The latter is a turn off.


IMO if the wayward is cake eating and affection is one of his top needs, then affection wouldn't be unwanted, so it wouldn't be a turn off.

If he is no longer cake eating and he has chosen the OW, then the affection would be unwanted and would be a turn off.

I think it depends on the specific wayward's need for affection and their level of cake eating.


AKA: hurtagainbydavid, hurtingstill
Me: BW/WW 36
Him: WH 37 (2time2timer)
DD x 2: 8 and 5
H's 1st affair D-day: 10/2001
H's 2nd affair D-day: 1/16/11
My threesome w/H and OM: 7/21/11

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by hbd
[

My H was chased by OW #2 (confirmed per their co-worker) and he LOVED it. He couldn't get enough of her chasing him.

Has Dr. H specifically talked about men with the combination of admiration and affection? From what I've read in his books, this is a rare combination that hasn't specifically been addressed.

Again, you are confusing affection with chasing. They are very different things. Dr Harley has never said that chasing IS effective in certain circumstances. And you have to keep in mind that we are talking about being chased by someone with whom he is emotionally DETACHED. He is emotionally DETACHED from his BW. Not so with an OW.

What is your definition of chasing? What specific actions would be considered chasing?


AKA: hurtagainbydavid, hurtingstill
Me: BW/WW 36
Him: WH 37 (2time2timer)
DD x 2: 8 and 5
H's 1st affair D-day: 10/2001
H's 2nd affair D-day: 1/16/11
My threesome w/H and OM: 7/21/11

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Originally Posted by hbd
[

IMO if the wayward is cake eating and affection is one of his top needs, then affection wouldn't be unwanted, so it wouldn't be a turn off.

It is a turn off coming from someone he is detached from, though. This is why it is virtually impossible to meet the needs of a wayward. The point of Plan A is to give the message that the BS would be willing to meet the EN's of the WS in the FUTURE if they end the affair. Actually meeting needs in that situation is almost impossible because the WS's lovebank is closed to the BS.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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hpd, why do you think Dr Harley limits Plan A for women to only 3 to 4 weeks?

What do you think his reasoning would be?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
hpd, why do you think Dr Harley limits Plan A for women to only 3 to 4 weeks?

What do you think his reasoning would be?

According to SAA, it's limited because living with a wayward is emotionally taxing on the BW.



AKA: hurtagainbydavid, hurtingstill
Me: BW/WW 36
Him: WH 37 (2time2timer)
DD x 2: 8 and 5
H's 1st affair D-day: 10/2001
H's 2nd affair D-day: 1/16/11
My threesome w/H and OM: 7/21/11

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Originally Posted by hbd
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
hpd, why do you think Dr Harley limits Plan A for women to only 3 to 4 weeks?

What do you think his reasoning would be?

According to SAA, it's limited because living with a wayward is emotionally taxing on the BW.

And what else does Dr Harley say? He gives another reason when it comes to women.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by hbd
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
hpd, why do you think Dr Harley limits Plan A for women to only 3 to 4 weeks?

What do you think his reasoning would be?

According to SAA, it's limited because living with a wayward is emotionally taxing on the BW.

And what else does Dr Harley say? He gives another reason when it comes to women.

Remind me. smile


AKA: hurtagainbydavid, hurtingstill
Me: BW/WW 36
Him: WH 37 (2time2timer)
DD x 2: 8 and 5
H's 1st affair D-day: 10/2001
H's 2nd affair D-day: 1/16/11
My threesome w/H and OM: 7/21/11

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l learned a lot about my H's affair from the glut of electronic details he left in its wake.

From what I can see, my H loved and lapped up the twice (or more) daily phone calls from her (he made calls too, of course), and the text messages that greeted him in the morning and that sent him to sleep at night. He loved being told that he was handsome, a great lover, sweet, kind, intelligent and all the rest of it. There were also emails when they could not speak freely on the phone.

OW told him those things constantly. She never let a day pass in over 3 years without telling him flattering things, if she could help it.

When I found out that these messages were being sent, and the calls were taking place several times per day, I was upset (on top of the usual affair upset) because he and I have never had a relationship that included those things. I realised that I had failed at something at which she had been so successful, and I was also hurt that he never wrote loving things to me.

Once I found about the buried affair (buried for two years after I first found it, 6 weeks in), I told him that the affair had to stop or we would have to divorce. In the absence of MB, I did not insist that he changed jobs, so it was easy for him to continue speaking to her at work, and seeing her when he travelled.

From that D day (2 years in to the affair) onwards, OW began to chase him, rather than just show him her love. She threatened suicide if he broke it off for good. She invented lies about her H having found out and planning divorce. She told my H that he owed her, since she had wrecked her marriage for him and was hated by her H and children and had no future now. She begged and pleaded and guilt-tripped.

That turned him off. Not enough to stop the affair dead as should have happened on D day, but enough to make him want out. He did not need her hysteria and tears. He believed that she should have known that an affair was limited in where it could go, and she was not playing fair by making demands, threatening to out him to me, and those kinds of things.

She could only win him back by playing down the crazy behaviour and pretending that she was fine and that they could be friends - special friends who had loved each other and who would always be dear to each other. By doing that, she was able to keep contact alive, with a phone call every few months, for the next five years until this year, when I found evidence of its continuing.

I'm giving this (long!) example to show how I understand the difference between flattery/admiration and chasing, and how I have seen it work for my H.

I have done a version of Plan A (without really knowing what it was, pre-MB), but the carrot, needs-meeting part of Plan A was never any good with my H without the stick. Unless and until he heard from me that our marriage was over if this affair continued, he never respected me.

He was due to retire in May this year, and for the first time ever, in April, he used the home PC to send her his home email address, so that they could stay in touch when his work email and phone would no longer be available to him.

When I found out(via the keylogger), I first told her H (again) and then told my H that I knew about the contact, and the plans to meet after he retired. His reaction on hearing that I had "tried to break up her marriage by telling her H" was to walk out of the house and go looking for a flat in which to live. He was beyond furious, and told me that our already very shaky marriage was over.

I did not chase him. When he got home, I told him that since he was willing to leave me and the kids to defend the honour of his part time ho (with whom he did not even want to live; he just wanted a sexual relationship with her ad infinitum), he could move out to a hotel immediately.

He refused to go, and the law in the UK does not give me the right to get him out on the spot, but I planned to change the locks when he next went to work, after the weekend.

That never happened. Two days later he asked to speak to me, and told me he did not want to leave; he had never wanted to leave. He said that nobody would ever make him as happy as I make him.

I made him speak to a Harley coach, and thereafter send the NC letter to her home and block her email addy at work. 3 weeks later he retired, and lost access to the work email addy and phone calls for good. He has no mobile phone. He is at home all the time, and we are doing the MB online course.

My point is that I did not chase him, ever. I held a lot of cards as the faithful wife who loved him, and mother of his kids, and I played to my strengths. He could have his ho, and I would not try to stop him from choosing her, but he could not have us both, and if he tried to have us both he would lose me.

There is a lot to be said for dignity and for laying down standards, when it comes to a BW and her H's affair. Men like my H, who have no trouble having affairs, seem to have a high EN for flattery, but they do not admire clingy, weepy, weak women, I have found.


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In my case, from what I can tell, my WH did the "chasing" and OW let him chase.

WH didn't think he had a chance with her, just like when we met, he didn't think he had a chance then either.

At one point, I confronted OW with their "friendship" and she told my WH that she wasn't going to talk to him anymore......let the hardcore chasing begin. She really knew what she was doing. She ran away, and he ran after her, leaving me and my children behind. She won. But what a prize she got. puke

Being in Plan A is one thing. I do believe that it is why DrH suggests such a short Plan A for women(I actually asked this question and he answered). A BW is to show the willingness, but then she needs to run away, and let her WH chase her.



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DSx2: 10,12
DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09
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Originally Posted by Scotland
Being in Plan A is one thing. I do believe that it is why DrH suggests such a short Plan A for women(I actually asked this question and he answered). A BW is to show the willingness, but then she needs to run away, and let her WH chase her.

That has been the most effective strategy in my experience. What is amazing is that in most cases, when a BW goes into Plan B, all of a sudden, her completely detached WH starts chasing her! I can't count the times a WS has gone crazy to try and get through to a BS that he has been ignoring her for months. It is the most astonishing thing. I have had 2 or 3 WH's even threaten court action if they were not allowed to get through. [I know of one that was successful too crazy] But the week before Plan B began, he wouldn't even return her calls.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Scotland
Being in Plan A is one thing. I do believe that it is why DrH suggests such a short Plan A for women(I actually asked this question and he answered). A BW is to show the willingness, but then she needs to run away, and let her WH chase her.

That has been the most effective strategy in my experience. What is amazing is that in most cases, when a BW goes into Plan B, all of a sudden, her completely detached WH starts My H seems to go in and out of wayward thinking.chasing her! I can't count the times a WS has gone crazy to try and get through to a BS that he has been ignoring her for months. It is the most astonishing thing. I have had 2 or 3 WH's even threaten court action if they were not allowed to get through. [I know of one that was successful too crazy] But the week before Plan B began, he wouldn't even return the her calls.

So every time H starts showing wayward mentality, I should play hard to get? Otherwise, I should offer my affection and not play hard to get? Is that right?



AKA: hurtagainbydavid, hurtingstill
Me: BW/WW 36
Him: WH 37 (2time2timer)
DD x 2: 8 and 5
H's 1st affair D-day: 10/2001
H's 2nd affair D-day: 1/16/11
My threesome w/H and OM: 7/21/11

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Originally Posted by hbd
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Scotland
Being in Plan A is one thing. I do believe that it is why DrH suggests such a short Plan A for women(I actually asked this question and he answered). A BW is to show the willingness, but then she needs to run away, and let her WH chase her.

That has been the most effective strategy in my experience. What is amazing is that in most cases, when a BW goes into Plan B, all of a sudden, her completely detached WH starts My H seems to go in and out of wayward thinking.chasing her! I can't count the times a WS has gone crazy to try and get through to a BS that he has been ignoring her for months. It is the most astonishing thing. I have had 2 or 3 WH's even threaten court action if they were not allowed to get through. [I know of one that was successful too crazy] But the week before Plan B began, he wouldn't even return the her calls.

So every time H starts showing wayward mentality, I should play hard to get? Otherwise, I should offer my affection and not play hard to get? Is that right?

That means if your husband is in an affair and you are in Plan A, don't chase him.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Yep. Ditto on that!

But what you don't do (and imho this goes for either sex) is to appear needy, clingy, or weepy.

If you are a gal, and you look fabulous, smell amazing, and stop with any begging or pleading or constant texting or calling, and it STOPS? The man in your life goes bezerk usually.

Men don't like to be chased also b/c it's not in their dna. THEY are the hunters. THEY like to be the one doing the hunting.

And if the ow chases first? They might respond if they have poor boundaries, but when the wh's get sucked in is when the OW pulls a bait and switch, and she suddenly cuts off contact with THEM and then they begin the chase with her. JUST LIKE WHEN A BW GOES TO PLAN B.

My xwh's two skanky ow both pulled this trick. It's the chase, tease, and then run tactic. They try to chase the mm. They might get him a bit, maybe a ons or something if the man is like my xwh with horrible boundaries and a feeling of "entitlement". But they usually ditch the ow quickly and return to the marriage. In our case, the ow kept on pursuing, and kept on trying to flatter and worship at the altar of my xwh's massive ego and it worked a bit...BUT he didn't leave home.

When d day happened, she PRETENDED to dump him and leave him be for say a few weeks...THAT was what sent him off into crazy psychotic wayward lalala land.

And you know what? When I went to plan B he went crazy psychotic also, tryng to track me down all the time. When once he found out I was on vacation (at my family's home) he tried to have the local sherriff track me down at home (we were separated when I went to plan B) and the sherriff refused. Basically he tried to use the sherriff to see if I had indeed come home from the vacation. See if I was home.

Another time, he had decided in his crazy foggy brain, that I was having a revenge affair with a doc i worked with (um...NO that never happened), so he himself PRETENDED to be the sherriff and called the coworker doc of mine up at TWO IN THE MORNING and demanded to speak to ME.

The doc/friend laughed his butt off and asked Darth if he had caller ID or knew that he had caller ID, for it was showing DARTH'S NUMBER, not the sherriff at all. My friend then said, "No she's not here and no she would NOT do that, but in the morning when I am having a morning coffee with the sweet wife you are cheating on openly, I will be thrilled to tell her how crazy you are. Clean up your mess." That's what he told him.

So yea, GIVE THE MAN a chance to chase. This is why I preach and others here too, that if you are getting ready to go to plan B, make sure you look amazing all the time around your wh, smell amazing, cook great meals, always smile and laugh. He will wonder what you're up to.

then you go plan B if he doesn't end the destructive affair? He will GO BEZERK. Like Melody told ya'll, many come home right away after that or some go to bizarre lengths (like my xwh) to make you break plan B.

If his desire to "chase" you is strong enough, he will end the affair and meet the conditions to come home and return to the marriage.

Last edited by peachyisback; 08/03/11 02:13 PM.

Change happens by listening and then starting a dialogue with the people who are doing something you don't believe is right. ~Jane Goodall
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Thanks all, this is great stuff to get me thinking about chasing vs showing love. I believe one of my WH's top EN's is admiration, when he was in Aus he spoke quite a bit about what I now realise was OW stroking his ego in London. Things like him handling conflict with other men well, women being interested in his sexually etc. I have been trying to offer compliments in texts and phone calls whenever I can without being over the top.

Can anyone offer suggestions on how to show love and commitment without chasing? How did you show WH this? Was it always a matter of waiting for WH to initiate contact and then being on best behaviour? I get confused given most of the Plan A in SAA is based on John meeting Sue's EN's, rather then female meeting male.


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Originally Posted by Caracal
Thanks all, this is great stuff to get me thinking about chasing vs showing love. I believe one of my WH's top EN's is admiration, when he was in Aus he spoke quite a bit about what I now realise was OW stroking his ego in London. Things like him handling conflict with other men well, women being interested in his sexually etc. I have been trying to offer compliments in texts and phone calls whenever I can without being over the top.

Can anyone offer suggestions on how to show love and commitment without chasing? How did you show WH this? Was it always a matter of waiting for WH to initiate contact and then being on best behaviour? I get confused given most of the Plan A in SAA is based on John meeting Sue's EN's, rather then female meeting male.

Caracal, don't contact him, that's how. Constantly contacting him is chasing him. And it is a turn off to men and will only beat you down when he doesn't respond. Let him be the one to initiate contact and then when he does, be as pleasant as possible.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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