My goodness...you people are..? and have vocabularies that are keeping Google in business.

Ow-wah...my head hurts.

Happy for you, Stretch!

This is interesting SB. I used to call the way people like to catagorize each other as they were,"pidgeon holing', me.

Short story about that.

In 1988 thier were some guys that were friends of mine, and one of them I was especially close to, because he had a sensible head on his shoulders.

The company we were contracting for was not doing well, and because I knew what I knew I said I was going to apply for an AT&T Data tech position in Boston,(we were working in framingham), because a teacher freind of mine told me they were looking to hire outside.

Well my frinds and us were all talking together, and I guess he felt like he wanted to let me down easy, as he said I would never pass the tests. With a kinda smirk, (Them good'ol boys).

I said,"Well I'm sorry but I can't give a F876 What you think XXXX<(Which then was followed by woos and ahhs from the rest of the peanut gallery). But listen let me tell you why, you have allready decided my fate, depth, and intellegence and if I listen to you I will deserve that fate. Its up to me to prove you wrong, but living to just prove you wrong is a waste of time also, so I decided I don't give your opinion any weight at all.." Of course I smiled and just let it roll off, and they still didn't understand me, but that was OK.

Of course they all said, "Ok good luck", but I didn't need that much luck, I had skill, and I wasn't superstitiuos.

Yes I aced the tests and got the job, wanna bet they found a way to lower thier estimation of the job to fit thier own small vision?

To bad guys I had a company car and a good job, you can bet I would have encouraged any of you, just as I was allways open to teach you, and did at times also, without ridicule.

Ok Story over..

I suppose in therapy, one of the biggest battles we face is our concepts. "Well if she/he didn't XXXXX everything would have been perfect!" " She/He did it all!' When the fact is maybe she/he drew out the big guns early and blew a big hole in it, but the other wasn't paying attention somewhere, because it takes two all the way, and both ways.

But here we are, the old world is gone, can we agree on a new one? In that new one what will the economy run on? What will be valuable? Me and You? Well thats the idea.

How much credit do we give to the other that they might have a point? where do we sign the aggreement? What is the contract that gaurantees we get our fair share? What if we are more capable of love than they are? (Yes that requires definition), of course we are talking about the takers side of this, and also a balance in reality and comparisons and.....Ok gonna stop, because when you feel loved you don't spend much time comparing, and the giver does his job also, sometime while the taker suffers.

Then that taker, figures it out, "aha, I have to give something undeserved, to get back something undeserved, because if you figure it all out really, none of us deserve to be loved, not this way, not as a process, but yes we can do it, scared and trembling all the way, hoping they treat us like they would like to be treated, if we needed something.

The taker doesn't really like that, but its brought to its knees in reality. Because the taker will gladly take it all and then say, "Thanks, better see someone about that heart wound, got any more?"

The giver wants its gift to be acceptable, but it needs to learn what is acceptable, and needed, but that taker is evaluating the gift, and the giftee,"Do they really need that?, what am I getting out of it?" "Tell me why you need that. Do you really need a condo in Paris and two weeks vacation a year alone to feel good about your life? See the taker is nessesary, but not supposed to be a tyrant either. "No your place is in the home, and should go there directly after work, we are saving for that house right?",(See My father).

No wonder affairs thrive in secret, the marriage they sprung from was some kind of secret aggreement with no definitions set up ahead of time. Oh yeah, we all do the swearing to (That Man living in the Sky) to cover the bases, but we didn't read it right, its OUR marriage, he can't be in it unless we allow Him, and He does'nt do slavery. He was here all along when we say,"Where was God when.." Did you both go to Him and ask for help or trust the dopamine high and take confidance in your feelings? I know I did both, and the second marriage swore to Him, and still things went bad. But I didn't listen to him all the time, and my feelings failed me for strength.

But the magic can still be there, but the world has changed and humbled us, and that is a gift to the wise. Now its time for instruction, and God never turns away those with a broken and contrite heart.

I see Dr H and his teachings, along with the people here as angels, ministering the healing truth to very confused people, along with the removing of the wrong concepts that cause them the pain in the first place.

All life is a gift, and the chance to share someones life with them, respecting thiers as He does, is also a gift, and to create children, well, that is a priveledge we have, not a right.

To stand for that is the bottom line, the rest is all details.

God Bless you in this time

Its tiring sometimes. Would like to post more

Spent some time reading my thread the past couple months. (Not revisiting the early days.... thats a dark place.) But just looking since late April. Since i have been more level headed.

Interesting. Some great pieces of advice i have missed.

Tired now. Its late. But check this space.

I will write more on the subject: "I wonder when my window will close? Has anyone else warned her my window will close someday and her opportunity for happiness will be gone?"

Lot of talk lately in our deep processing conversations about how she still doesn't feel better. She feels worse.

She is scared because she wonders if LOVE can come back. She says maybe once its flamed out... its out.

My PC believes there is something called a Deeper Love which means you really understand the differences in your partner. And even what you don't like, but you love them for it anyway. Harley calls it Romantic Love. Mark Twain said only people together for 25+ years get the great chance to experience it.

So about this idea that "once its gone... its gone... and cannot come back"....

I responded, (avoiding DJ), well we've been reading some experts on the subject like Harley and Chapman ("Love Languages") that do not believe that. They believe in building romantic love. Love is a choice" She said, "hmmm."

I believe that right now the major shift in our marriage work is that for over a year she was focused on fixing the bad hubby. Fixing what's wrong in him. Now... there is something clearly broken in her. And the work is 50/50. We are both working on ourselves. That's uncomfortable to her. She responds by saying, "It sounds like its all blaming me. Its all about fixing me. All my fault."

No. We just discovered its 50/50. We both have work to do. Why does she hear and feel as though that means its "all her fault?!?!"

Why is it that this shift from 100/0 to 50/50 is so depression inducing?

Before: Fix the monster hubby. Revisionist history created an evil bad hubby story. So bad that the selfish affair behavior was justifiable!!!!

Now: We both have issues. She made a selfish mistake. She is depressed. Her depression is not all about her marriage and a useful excuse for running from challenges. Husband still has a lot to own up too. He has plenty of remorse. A lot he wants to do better. We need to both work together.

But she has expressed that what she is hearing is this... "Oh its all my fault now. You think I am just stubborn. Its my fault that I don't feel love now."

Oy!

My EN's are not highly met these days. She couldn't tell me my top 5 the other night. She didn't remember them. She told me, "As I stand on my feet, discover who I am, assert myself and figure out what I want, you won't like that. You won't get all the admiration and praise you came to expect. That's why you might fall out of love with me."

What a pile of refuse. What is that story line?!?! From some mid 1970's woman's lib script? I asked her, "Is admiration among my top 5 EN's?" She said, "I'm sorry I actually don't remember."

I calmly told her, "I will fall out of love if my top 5 EN's are neglected over time as I patiently wait and try to deposit Love Units towards you. Your bank was closed before exposure. I was trying so hard. And I didn't understand the barrier I was facing. That was cruel. Now I get it. I am better for understanding our life now. So now I am still trying to deposit Love Units. The door is barely open, but I WILL keep on trying."

Let me suggest something to you. As a mother of four children I understand the exhaustion that comes from the daily in and out of our lives. I do four loads of laundry/day, two loads of dishes, cooking, cleaning, changing, homework, reading, playing, interacting, etc.

I made a list of what is important to me as a mother of four and if my POSWH ever comes back how I need him to fulfill the FC need.

One of my WH top EN's is Domestic support. I will not get out of the tasks of maintaining our household. One of my top EN's if FC. I need him to be a great father. My WH being an absolutely lousy, no good, POS father while in this affair is draining my LB super quick.

Have really digested her FC need? I know if my WH was able to really come back full swing and engage in the most amazing father role on the planet my bank will fill up quickly. I don't want to have to ask him to do stuff with the kids -- I want him to "100% do stuff with the kids." Engage them like he has never before and give them the utmost security on the planet.

To make this long and drawn out (SORRY!!) are you fully hitting the EN's the way they really need to be hit for her?

You may have to keep tweaking how you fulfill the EN's to really deposit the love.

If my WH comes home and does a lack luster FC --- I know I will probably get more pizzed than happy. FC is my highest EN.

I believe the only reason I didn't have an affair was because my POSWH was able to deposit so much into my bank by being a great father. It is so sad because he is draining the love just as quick by being and awful wayward father today.

Figure out your action on the EN -- if you did it slightly different that may have a stronger deposit then if you are doing in her eyes (1/2 azze!)

Just my 2cents!!!

She is scared because she wonders if LOVE can come back. She says maybe once its flamed out... its out....the major shift in our marriage work is that for over a year she was focused on fixing the bad hubby....there is something clearly broken in her....That's uncomfortable to her....Why is it that this shift from 100/0 to 50/50 is so depression inducing?...But she has expressed that what she is hearing is this... "Oh its all my fault now..."...My EN's are not highly met these days. She couldn't tell me my top 5 the other night. She didn't remember them.

I was reading a study the other day that proposed that many of the stupid meaningless injuries and deaths that occur today to teenagers attempting low-percentage stunts are influenced by the confusion in their minds that in real life, there is no "Replay" button!

WW clearly does NOT understand the limited paths that will open to her over the immediate future. Full recovery and working toward a strong marriage is one. Returning to her fantasy-life with "Guitar Man" (who, if memory serves, spit her out like a piece of used gum) is not another. Dissolution and a lonely life as an aging, mid-40's divorcee, now KNOWING (instead of whining about) her personal emotional flaws looms as the other.

If NG could jump out of your system, I would energetically shout at her that not "buying in" to the effort that is required to avoid the last path is almost guaranteeing its ultimate existence. YOU cannot bring that information to her, as the TRUTH to modern American WSs gets transformed into an LB, so that leaves your MC, or some other intimate acquaintance (in our case it was our blessed family friend).

You might want to find that intermediary.

ETA: "Forgiveness" is a gift from you to her. For her to whine about the difficulty in unwrapping it is.....tawdry.

T/J

I hope you are writing (in a?) a book, NG. If not, your musing's are for naught as not captured in one place. Do it.

Have at it.

End T/J.

Stretch: have been in your corner since day one, my friend!

@toughlove. FC is her nbr one. I am continually doing more and more. Thx for the reminder. Dont let me forget. Sad to say that my interpretationn now is she doesnt see it or believe its real. I am motivated to give FC for myself and the four children. Its real. Its for life whether or not she accepts it its wonderful for me and for them.

@NG. So true. Someone needs her to see that. Its an LB from me. Daddy is a link in the chain. My PC said just as you say. Hopefully our MC can get that out. Or a friend that was exposed to. Maybe good cousin

@surfer. It means a lot. Thank you

If not, your musings are for naught as not captured in one place.

Wow. Thank you.



But I prefer to consider them as a form of written "mandala", those remarkably
detailed sand paintings created by Buddhist monks as forms of worship.
Here today......dispersed by the turmoil of the vagaries of life tomorrow.

Just don't tell Tex. She hates guys who get all "mushy"!

Like it or not Stretch, the W is not going to drive this. Its the last insult to a BH that most of the time we have to finish what we started under our own power. Shes going to look to you for leadership through this whole process and beyond.

Look after yourself and have some faith.

BTW Neverguessed, I finally got around to translating your signature. Hilarious!

Can I suggest one?

Mulier est hominis confusio

Stretch: this lands on your thread, but it's nice...

A written mandala is made up of a number of concentric circles, inside which bright, positive, meaningful words are written. As we write words of love, gratitude, peace, and harmony, the power of those words is poured into the mandala. The process of writing the words heals and revitalizes us. When the mandala is completed, it continuously radiates this healing energy to humanity and the world of nature.

Love that many here follow this point >> "The process of writing the words heals and revitalizes <<.

Even Texans can agree with that!

Duck!

Yeah, so don't mess with us.

Should try that. Now NG's reference to his words as a Mandala makes sense. A fella can learn a lot here. Actually, a mandala has come home as a child's homework assignment more than once so i should have known.

Praying for you Stretch, you will come through this conflict, keep fighting the good fight.

Stretch,

I often refer people to read a short but quite insightful book because it really aligns nicely with MB concepts. I see that your counselor has the two of you working on yourselves, and your wife is missing the idea of why she is doing this. She doesn't seem to see why fixing you has never (and will never) work to make her happy, and how the issues she faces won't ever be repaired using that approach. The book I'm talking about gets to the heart of this matter - and the second one that follows it really hits it as well. Either one helps, but reading them in succession might help her get the idea, if she is willing.

They are both by The Arbinger Institute:

1. Leadership and Self-Deception: Getting out of the Box

and

2. The Anatomy of Peace

They are both written by this institute which is actually a philosophy group, but their aim is to help people understand their own motivations in life. Exactly what we are talking about here - why we do things, and how to get past these hurdles that we seem to see as "problems that other people are causing for us".

The "Leadership" book is written from the standpoint of a businessman, but the concepts are readily adaptable to any relationship, and they actually do include marriage within the book. The "Peace" book uses marriage and family relationships.


I can't speak highly enough of these two books, because everyone who reads them has come back and said how much they see themselves in them. Yet, how different we all are.....


Even if your wife doesn't read them, you might want to check them out. Because if YOU just use the ideas, you can effect change in her. Tried and true.


SB

Thanks schoolbus. I will get them very soon!

We are going through a tough patch right now. Hopefully going to come out for the better. I need to lead. I need to stay strong and have quiet confidence. I have shared that my window may close someday as all my EN's go unmet (she freely admits she is not trying to meet my needs. In MC today she went on about "I wash his socks, he has clean underwear, I feed the kids." Our MC was floored I think. Obviously I need more in the marriage than that. I never heard that last ditch language of defense from her. My wife is way too emotionally intelligent to believe that laundry is somehow my big EN. I don't know where that came from. Maybe she has herself painted in a corner.)

Honestly, I think she is just plain AFRAID to work on herself. These books may help.

She was depressed last night about an upcoming family reunion. "I won't have fun. I can't have fun. The kids demand my attention. I get no joy out of it. I get no time to talk to my family."

I asked the MC, "What do I do? How do I help when I sense that depressed despair." I traditionally have said things like, "Its not that bad. Its not true. Look at the bright side. Cheer up." So, those don't help your depressed spouse. Our MC's advice was, "Just let her know your present. You hear her. Ask, 'What can I do to help?'"

So I asked her. "You can watch the kids. You sit and joke with my family and I am constantly parenting the kids needs. You are having a jolly old time and I a getting exhausted and I never get to have a visit."

I hear her. I told her I heard her.

HEre's the thing. When she is depressed, and I ask how I can help, I am tired and frustrated and feeling unloved and unwanted because the answer has been for so lon, "Fix this bad husband or bad father behavior of yours. Your bad husband and father behaviors are why I am depressed."

I am WORKING on those. And she is still depressed! I told her.... from the heart... I would like to hear a different response. What does she need, what help from me, what help from herself that has nothing to do with "FIXING" her bad husband?!?!

I just don't know if she is working on her depression in any other ways besides:

A) unhealthy choices (food, fantasies, drinking.)
B) a pill
C) fixating on why her husband is the cause.

The husband can be taken care of. He loves her. He is devoted deeply for better or worse. He has tremendous strength and will to be the best for her. Believe that!

On the other hand, he can just go away if she prefers.

Then what?

Better start working on healthy ways to deal with depression before its too late for the marriage.

Why does every small conflict affect her so deeply?
Why doesn't she believe she could hold a job?
Why did she hate every job she had? Waking up? Getting dressed? Bosses? Conflict? Stress management?
What are all the unhealthy ways she deals with depression?
What are healthier lifestyle choices? Exercise? Different foods? Vitamin D? A support system? (That's me #1 plus about fifty other people I could name who love her.)
What are though habits that are unhelpful?

Is she able to make a commitment to Recovery?!?!

Dear Stretch123:

I have never posted on your thread, and can only speak for myself, but I will tell you, it is VERY hard to work on depression. Simple yes; easy, no.

For some people (like me), depression is a filter which sharpens the way you perceive worthlessness in yourself and negativity and hopelessness in the world. You see the world one way, and everyone around you is telling you that you're wrong - "Its not that bad. Its not true. Look at the bright side. Cheer up." When my husband would (and still does) say these things to me, it was the ultimate DJ. I heard him telling me that my thoughts and feelings were wrong, which only reinforced my feelings of worthlessness - if I were a better, stronger person, I would "just" cheer up. The fact that I couldn't proved....fill in current thought about worthlessness.

Changing thought habits? Again, simple, yes; easy, no. For me, trying to change my thoughts was like trying to change the perception of my physical senses. I saw blue, but everyone was telling me that until I saw yellow, I wouldn't be healthy. So, I would set out at the beginnning of each day to "see" yellow. My eyes would tell me something was blue, but I would say, "No, that's yellow," and try to mistrust my own eyes. When that didn't work, I'd try to "fake it to make it" and talk and act as if I saw yellow.

Somedays, the sheer concentration and effort it took to do this paralyzed me. I had to decide to do something functional (get up, get dressed, go to work, talk to people) OR change my thoughts. I couldn't do both.

So, I "functioned."

I don't know if my perception applies to your wife's, and I hope I didn't pull your thread off track, but I just saw myself in the questions you asked.

Best wishes to your wife for her recovery -

BV

Hi Stretch - I just read your last two posts and they struck a chord with me. My WW shares some of the qualities you mention; i.e. the job she got last year was 'perfect', but she quit a month later. Then, the next job was 'awesome and a great work environment', but she quit three months later. Her current job pays about $10/hr with very little chance for a big raise, but it's a 'great job.' So, she's setting herself up for some misery there too. In other words, there is no way she can make it on her own in the long run on that salary. She'll either have to work another job or do something - cars get older, roofs need replacing, etc.

My WW has gained about 20# or so and it shows on her. That depresses her - the fact that she sees DS only part time brings her down, etc. The list goes on and on.

Why am I telling you all this? Well, you notice that it's all short term thinking that doesn't live up to expectations. That feeds the self-destructive cycle, of poor eating habits, lack of exercise, bad behavior, etc. In my case, I'm sure the escape is the OM, but that too will disappoint at some point. She'll be out having a good time and that little boy of hers will pop into her mind and tug at her heart strings for just a second. That'll be long enough to ruin the evening.

You notice that I don't enter the picture anywhere here. It's the selfish part of all WS - it's a core attribute they all share. So, until your WW starts looking at her own behavior, analyzing it by herself or with a counselor and truly taking responsibility for HERSELF, her decisions and her actions she'll be depressed IMHO. The quick fixes help for a while, but ultimately they're a letdown. She's still looking for a scapegoat (you) or a quick fix (food, pill, etc.). That's the spiral of self-destruction that I think many people fall into.

IMHO - you, Stretch, need to focus on you and your kids. There's some element of control there. Your WW really needs to work on herself, her demons and her issues. That's her responsibility - you can't FIX her - only she can do that. You can create a positive and supportive environment around her, but she has to be willing to accept it and embrace it. I'm guessing that won't happen until she realizes the impact her choices have had on her family. You, like me, are the scapegoat for every bad decision she's ever made. I got news for you, YOU'RE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HER P-POOR DECISION MAKING. That's hers and hers alone. She needs to process that and that will take time. I hate to say it, but your WW is really starting to pi$$ me off.

Hang in there Stretch!