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This thread has certainly prompted a lot of heated debate, and I surely hope it has been helpful for people to get some things off their chest.

I wonder if now that we know everyone is welcome (at least in theory) from various backgrounds and with various beliefs, do we need to continue this thread?

It has rather morphed from something that is relevent to helping people build marriages into a variety of religious, social and philosophical debates among virtual strangers.

Whether you are a Christian or not shouldn't preclude you from enjoying encouragement and challenge in terms of how to improve your MARRIAGE.

Perhaps there is another website for those people who want to debate in greater depth on these other issues.

It just doesn't feel very productive to me. Interesting... stimulating for some... sure. But not productive for the intended purposes of this site.

Just my opinion, which I am sure will be completely rejected by people on all sides of the issue.

<small>[ March 19, 2004, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: emss ]</small>

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In a perfect world, "no", but even God allowed for Sin in the world - and sent his son to save the sinners.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by batoutofhell:
<strong>
...I mean, the only thing that sounds kookier to an atheist than what christians believe is what christians think other people believe! Face it, xians think every other religion is a cult and that their followers are nuts! Actually, let's add to that --- christians think that every other denomination of christianity is filled with nuts.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually Bat, I know something that sounds even kookier: when persons who are obviously and incredibly mis-informed about Christianity rant on and on about how "Christians believe this" and "Christians do that" and "Christians are such lunatics", all because we have the audacity to express a view. What is it you find so unnerving about that?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
MMOH said it best, "No knowledge of where we came from is going to come from reading a # of short books written by some bare-assed, half-starved, protein deficient, illiterate jews, wandering around in a desert, in a nomadic tribe, hallucninating from the oppressive heat and conditions in which they tried to eke out an existence."
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can I assume that you have some reason for all this slander? Apparently slamming Christians is too limiting for you, since now you're branching out to attacking Jews as well.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

Prayer does not work because no on is listning. If there was, there would a hell of a lot less choir boys being molested by priests. How arrogant is it to think that god is answering someone's prayers about getting a new job, passing a test, winning the lottery, stopping a leak in the roof, fixing a bone; but "he" does not care about little kids being molested, buses flying off cliffs, nuns being raped, etc.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'll certainly grant you that the issue of prayer and how/whether God is listening has tormented many a believer who sincerely wonders how it is that God allows such profound suffering in the world.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
You would also have to believe that "he" supported all the naked aggression and misery xianity and religion has caused mankind throughout history. Honestly, xianity's history is deeper in blood than the nazis. Do the #s if you wish.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again you make sweeping declarations of what Christianity is and what Christians believe
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

I never met an atheist who knocked on people's doors, trying to convert them. Atheists don't burn books. Atheists don't tell people how to think or what to do or try to create laws to MAKE PEOPLE DO THINGS.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I suspect your blanket assessment of atheists may also be naive. Some atheists may have an attitude of 'live and let live', but some clearly are not satisfied with eliminating religious influence in their own lives - everyone else must be similarly deprived as well.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

Atheists don't have a history of torturing people who don't think as they do. xians on the other hand wants everyone to be like them. And if they can't kill or convince them; they'll encourage politicians to make laws that deny people's freedoms and civil rights. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you SURE it's the CHRISTIANS you're talking about? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Incidentally the founding fathers despised xianity and organized religion.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry, but this lie has been repeated so often that some people actually believe it. You can continue to believe it, or do a little actual historical research. It's up to you.
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
If they didn't, THIS WOULD BE a xian country. It's not. We are free to think what we want without threat of prosecution. That's why we need to keep religion out of schools. No kid should ever feel alientated because he does not want to say "under god." </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Certainly no quarrel with that last sentence.
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Incidentally, can someone please name for me one televangelist that Jesus would want to pal around with in heaven? How would "he" feel about people wearing GOLD crosses studded with diamonds? How would "he" feel about multi-million dollar churches? Religion has always been about two things --- $$$ and power. That's it. You give religion the $$$ and they have the power. Oh, but you get to walk away feeling like you bought some extra chips that you can cash in when you get to "heaven."
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">PLEASE don't tell me your opinion of Christianity is based on televangelists! IMHO, most (not all) televangelists are to true Christianity what professional wrestlers are to sports.
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Come on! Lighten up! There is nothing wrong with being part of a highly evolved species. It could have been worse. You could have been born as a Venus fly trap. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We ARE highly evolved! (Notice my opposable thumbs!) It's just too bad that our moral selves haven't evolved as fast as our physical selves.

And just for the record: I'd rather be born the fly trap, than the fly. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ March 19, 2004, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: fireandice ]</small>

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I'm with emss on this one. This has ceased to be a useful thread. The MB concepts are human ones and would work for practioners of any faith or of none. If we all adhered more to discussion of the basics of MB rather than riding our own hobby horses we would grate on each other far less and likely progress in our marriages far more.

As I am not without sin, I am not casting stones, but maybe we should be building?

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This is a marriage builder website. We are all here for that purpose. If you post on a bulletin board where people from all walks of life are reading and responding, you should expect opinions and beliefs that differ from your own. If you don't like someone's advice, ignore it. What do you gain by starting an argument or insulting someone who is anonymous and has no real influence on your life?

*jillybean-this was in response to some of the arguments that I have read in this thread.

<small>[ March 20, 2004, 12:57 AM: Message edited by: cleopatra ]</small>

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While I am a believer and a Christian, I found the following information interesting. I didn't know so many of these people were outspoken Atheists/Agnostics. I still respect their works, though. I just find it interesting....especially the quotes by Abraham Lincoln and Mark Twain.


Quotes:

The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.

-John Adams, U.S. President



This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.

-John Adams, U.S. President



Every sensible man, every honorable man, must hold the Christian sect in horror.

-Francois Marie Arouet "Voltaire", French author and playwright



Christianity is the most ridiculous, the most absurd and bloody religion that has ever infected the world.

-Francois Marie Arouet "Voltaire", French author and playwright



Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and common sense.

-Francois Marie Arouet "Voltaire", French author and playwright



Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.

-Francois Marie Arouet "Voltaire", French author and playwright



I am an atheist, out and out. It took me a long time to say it. I've been an atheist for years and years, but somehow I felt it was intellectually unrespectable to say that one is an atheist, because it assumed knowledge that one didn't have. Somehow it was better to say one was a humanist or agnostic. I don't have the evidence to prove that God doesn't exist, but I so strongly suspect that he doesn't that I don't want to waste my time.

-Isaac Asimov, Russian-born American author



Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.

-Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor



Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.

-Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor



All religions have been made by men.

-Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor



Religion is just mind control.

George Carlin, comedian



I don’t believe in God. My god is patriotism. Teach a man to be a good citizen and you have solved the problem of life.

Andrew Carnegie, Scottish-born American industrialist and philanthropist



It may be that our role on this planet is not to worship God, but to create him.

Arthur C. Clarke, author



Religion is a byproduct of fear. For much of human history, it may have been a necessary evil, but why was it more evil than necessary? Isn't killing people in the name of God a pretty good definition of insanity?

Arthur C. Clarke, author



Faith is believing something you know ain’t true.

-Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist



If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be -- a Christian.

-Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist



It (the Bible) is full of interest. It has noble poetry in it; and some clever fables; and some blood-drenched history; and some good morals; and a wealth of obscenity; and upwards of a thousand lies.

-Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist



A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows.

-Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist



Our Bible reveals to us the character of our god with minute and remorseless exactness... It is perhaps the most damnatory biography that exists in print anywhere. It makes Nero an angel of light and leading by contrast.

-Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist



I cannot see how a man of any large degree of humorous perception can ever be religious -- unless he purposely shut the eyes of his mind & keep them shut by force.

-Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist



If there is a God, he is a malign thug.

-Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist



I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment, to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure.

-Clarence Darrow, American lawyer



I believe that relgion is the belief in future life and in God. I don’t believe in either. I don’t believe in God as I don’t believe in Mother Goose.

-Clarence Darrow, American lawyer



For myself, I do not believe in any revelation. As for a future life, every man must judge for himself between conflicting vague probabilities.

-Charles Robert Darwin, English naturalist



The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us, and I for one must be content to remain an agnostic.

-Charles Robert Darwin, English naturalist



Religion is all bunk.

-Thomas Edison, American inventor



I cannot believe in the immortality of the soul.... No, all this talk of an existence for us, as individuals, beyond the grave is wrong. It is born of our tenacity of life -- our desire to go on living -- our dread of coming to an end.

-Thomas Edison, American inventor



I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religion than it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.

-Albert Einstein, German-born American physicist



I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism.

-Albert Einstein, German-born American physicist



I do not believe in the immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it.

-Albert Einstein, German-born American physicist



Neither in my private life nor in my writings, have I ever made a secret of being an out-and-out unbeliever.

-Sigmund Freud, German-born psychologist



Religion is comparable to a childhood neurosis.

-Sigmund Freud, German-born psychologist



I turned to speak to God, About the world's despair; But to make bad matters worse, I found God wasn't there.

-Robert Frost, American poet



Forgive, O Lord, my little joke on Thee and I'll forgive Thy great big one on me.

-Robert Frost, American poet



I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way.

-Robert Frost, American poet



History does not record anywhere or at any time a religion that has any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unkonwn without help. But, like dandruff, most people do have a religion and spend time and money on it and seem to derive considerable pleasure from fiddling with it.

-Robert A. Heinlen, American science-ficiton author



Any priest or shaman must be presumed guilty until proven innocent.

-Robert A. Heinlen, American science-ficiton author



All thinking men are atheists.

-Ernest Hemingway, American author



Our nada who art in nada, nada be thy name. Thy kingdom nada, thy will be nada as it is in nada. Give us this nada our daily nada and nada us our nada as we nada our nadas and nada us into nada but deliver us from nada; pues nada. Hail nothing full of nothing, nothing is with thee.

-Ernest Hemingway, American author



That it is wrong for a man to say he is certain of the objective truth of a proposition unless he can provide evidence which logically justifies that certainty. This is what agnosticism asserts and in my opinion, is all that is essential to agnosticism.

-Thomas Henry Huxley, English biologist



With soap, baptism is a good thing.

-Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer



For the most part we inherit our opinions. We are the heirs of habits and mental customs. Our beliefs, like the fashion of our garments, depend on where we were born. We are molded and fashioned by our surroundings.

Environment is a sculptor -- a painter.

If we had been born in Constantinople, then most of us would have said: 'There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet.' If our parents had lived on the banks of the Ganges, we would have been worshipers of Siva, longing for the heaven of Nirvana.

As a rule, children love their parents, believe what they teach, and take great pride in saying that the religion of mother is good enough for them.

-Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer



The clergy know that I know that they know that they do not know.

-Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer



All who doubted or denied would be lost. To live a moral and honest life -- to keep your contracts, to take care of wife and child -- to make a happy home -- to be a good citizen, a patriot, a just and thoughtful man, was simply a respectable way of going to hell.

God did not reward men for being honest, generous and brave, but for the act of faith. Without faith, all the so-called virtues were sins. and the men who practiced these virtues, without faith, deserved to suffer eternal pain.

All of these comforting and reasonable things were taught by the ministers in their pulpits -- by teachers in Sunday schools and by parents at home. The children were victims. They were assaulted in the cradle -- in their mother's arms. Then, the schoolmaster carried on the war against their natural sense, and all the books they read were filled with the same impossible truths. The poor children were helpless. The atmosphere they breathed was filled with lies -- lies that mingled with their blood.

-Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer



Question boldly even the existence of God; because if there be one, He must approve the homage of Reason rather than that of blindfolded Fear.

-Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat



I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.

-Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat



Religions are all alike – founded upon fables and mythologies.

-Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat



It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

-Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat



The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being of His Father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.

-Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat



I wasn't raised Catholic, but I used to go to Mass with my friends, and I viewed the whole business as a lot of very enthralling hocus-pocus. There's a guy hanging upon the wall in the church, nailed to a cross and dripping blood, and everybody's blaming themselves for that man's torment, but I said to myself, 'Forget it. I had no hand in that evil. I have no original sin. Theres no blood of any sacred martyr an my hands. I pass on all of this.'

-Billy Joel, American musician



I believe that all important matters have to be settled here, not in the clouds somewhere after we kick off.

-Billy Joel, American musician



The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma.

-Abraham Lincoln, U.S. President



During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.

-James Madison, U.S. President



In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people.

-James Madison, U.S. President



Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.

-James Madison, U.S. President



I'm glad some people have that faith. I don't have that faith. If there is a God, a caring God, then we have to figure he's done an extraordinary job of making a very cruel world.

-Dave Matthews, Australian rock musician



Who wants to go to Heaven with all those ******* angels?

-Marilyn Manson, American rock musician



The wretchedness of religion is at once an expression and a protest against real wretchedness. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the feeling of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of unspiritual conditions. It is the opium of the people.

-Karl Marx, German economist and political philosopher



The social principles of Christianity preach cowardice, self-contempt, abasement, submission, humility, in a word all the qualities of the canaille.

-Karl Marx, German economist and political philosopher



O senseless man, who cannot possibly make a worm and yet will make Gods by the dozen!

-Michel Eyqyem de Montaigne, French essayist



Faith means not wanting to know what is true.

-Freidrich Nietzsche, German philosopher



So long as the priest, that professional negator, slanderer and poisoner of life, is regarded as a superior type of human being, there cannot be any answer to the question: What is truth?

-Freidrich Nietzsche, German philosopher



The Christian faith from the beginning, is sacrifice: the sacrifice of all freedom, all pride, all self-confidence of spirit; it is at the same time subjection, a self-derision, and self-mutilation.

-Freidrich Nietzsche, German philosopher



All religions bear traces of the fact that they arose during the intellectual immaturity of the human race - before it had learned the obligations to speak the truth. Not one of them makes it the duty of its God to be truthful and understandable in his communications.

-Freidrich Nietzsche, German philosopher



The most serious parody I have ever heard was this: In the beginning was nonsense, and the nonsense was with God, and the nonsense was God.

-Freidrich Nietzsche, German philosopher



There is no devil and no hell. Thy soul will be dead even sooner than thy body: fear therefore nothing any more.

-Freidrich Nietzsche, German philosopher



Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.

-Thomas Paine, American revolutionary



All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.

-Thomas Paine, American revolutionary



It is fear that first brought Gods into the world.

-Gallus Petronius, 1st Century Roman courtier



I condemn false prophets, I condemn the effort to take away the power of rational decision, to drain people of their free will--and a hell of a lot of money in the bargain. Religions vary in their degree of idiocy, but I reject them all. For most people, religion is nothing more than a substitute for a malfunctioning brain.

-Gene Roddenberry, Creator of Star Trek



Religion is based . . . mainly on fear . . . fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand in hand. . . . My own view on religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it as a disease born of fear and as a source of untold misery to the human race.

-Bertrand Russell, British philosopher, educator, mathemetician, and social critic



Fear is the parent of cruelty, therefore it is no wonder if religion and cruelty have gone hand-in-hand.

-Bertrand Russell, British philosopher, educator, mathemetician, and social critic



The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind.

-Marquis de Sade, French libertine



My view is that if there is no evidence for it, then forget about it. An agnostic is somebody who doesn't believe in something until there is evidence for it, so I'm agnostic.

-Carl Sagan, American astronomer and author



The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one.

-George Bernard Shaw, Irish-born English playwright



At present there is not a single credible established religion in the world.

-George Bernard Shaw, Irish-born English playwright



If God has spoken, why is the world not convinced.

-Percy Bysshe Shelley, English poet



By the year 2000, we will, I hope, raise our children to believe in human potential, not God.

-Gloria Steinam, women's rights activist



I do not believe in the divinity of Christ, and there are many other of the postulates of the orthodox creed to which I cannot subscribe.

-William Howard Taft, U.S. President



To regard Christ as God, and to pray to him, are to my mind the greatest possible sacrilege.

-Leo Tolstoy, Russian revolutionary



I can very well do without God both in my life and in my painting, but I cannot, suffering as I am, do without something which is greater than I am, which is my life, the power to create.

-Vincent Van Gogh, Dutch painter



Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile.

-Kurt Vonnegut, American author



I believe in God, only I spell it Nature.

-Frank Lloyd Wright, American architect

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Clay,

May I ask the source of this list?

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F&I,

I was searching for some information in regards to the quote by BOOH (interesting acronym, btw) when he said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Atheists don't tell people how to think or what to do or try to create laws to MAKE PEOPLE DO THINGS. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was trying to find the name of the woman who has taken the issue of the Pledge of Allegiance (...under God...) to court every year since Eisenhower added those two words in the fifties.

I went to Yahoo.com and searched for Famous Atheists, and came up with a gazillion websites. Many had these same quotes in them, but this one had them in the most concise manner of any.

The website was:

http://www.no-god.com/article/quote.html

I don't pretend to support these views, nor do I guarantee their accuracy. If you look around, though, they are all over the place. The Presidential ones should be pretty easy to verify, I would think.

Again, I thought it was interesting, and applied to the topic.

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It is an interesting list. I recall hearing a radio program that addressed both the faith of Jefferson and Lincoln. I seem to recall that for much of Lincoln's life, he studied the bible, I do believe daily, but didn't understand the plan of salvation.

I do believe he did accept Christ as his savior much later.

However, my point is, we don't know where in any man's spiritual journey these quotes might be uttered. So I contend in Lincoln's quote, that it may not be his, "final answer"

Just more food for thought.

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Thanks, Clay.

I was just curious. As any modern public figure learns to his/her sorrow, snippets of uttered words can be so thoroughly folded, spindled and mutilated as to bear no resemblence to what was actually said, or what was intended.

I don't mean that it applies to all these quotes - just that it's something I like to remember.

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Hootie:
<strong>Are you saying that one day you bowed your knee to the Lordship of Christ,</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>

I did, but I was a kid.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>...and then one day you decided He wasn't worth following, or he was a liar or lunatic? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I realized that he was at least partially fictional.

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I have one thing to say to that list Clay...


A GIANT A-MEN!!!

LMAO

And Hootie...When I was a child, i thought like a child...oh yeah, shades of 1COR13, eh?

That is when I professed to the world that I was saved...and there's no doubt that I bought it all...hook line and sinker.

But not one to ever give up on my questions and thought, after a year of physics in college, I realized it was indeed all just bunk....and will definately say today that I am an ex-born again christian.

So yeah, I have been told I was never saved, I have been told I still am, etc. Frankly, folks can say anything they like. I will say I was brainwashed, wrong, and on the road to a very "disillusioned" life. But for me, science, logic, and thought provided the light...and I have been freed from my brainwashing, indeed!

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Can I assume that you have some reason for all this slander? Apparently slamming Christians is too limiting for you, since now you're branching out to attacking Jews as well.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fireandice - I really don't have anything further to add to this because it really isn't the place for it; but I would like to make one thing very clear. Yes, I dispise xian-insanity. I am a complete infidel. I am a 3rd generation atheist; but I never have been and never will be anti-semetic. My mom's side of the family are Jews. That of course qualifies me to be a "member of the club". I can't escape it and I am proud of it. It's a heritage. Kind of like being Italian or something. So let's just be clear on that, OK? The Jews have been through enough bull**** throughout history. Enough people hate them for no good reasons, and I have no desire to join the group of uneducated *******s who encourage hate on a gentle and spiritual and educated group that has always minded their own business and tried to improve their own lives.

Xians on the other hand inspire a lot of hatred in "non-xians" by trying to shove their beliefs down everyone's throats. I am sure you are a nice guy. Of course there are nice xians out there who mean well, etc. But why in the world anyone would want to call themself a xian and to openly associate themselves with a group that has caused more misery and naked aggression against mankind than the Nazis is beyond my comprehension. There was no "son of god" Jesus, but even if there was --- HE would NOT be a xian. Especially since the mythical Jesus was a Jew. Doesn't that say it all? Honestly. If you want to be close to Jesus, then understand HIS religion as best you can. It seems a lot better than buying into the nonesense written by 70 different people, all over the world, with differents plitical agendas, over the course of 1,500 years.

The BIBLE is filled with so many contradictions! Honestly, how can you believe a word in it? If you are lookng for insipration, there are plenty of inspirational books out there. if you are looking for a hero, there are plenty of REAL heroes to admire; and if you are afraid to die, then do something to immortalize your name and make a difference; but don't just believe a bunch of plagiarized fiction just in hopes of walking around on a cloud or in a garden in some fantasy called heaven with some boring, uneductaed nuns and priests and Jerry Falwell!

By the way, most of my friends are atheists, agnostics, humanists and other freethinkers and as far as I have been able to tell --- they don't drink, do drugs, gamble, beat their wives, cheat, steal, have tattoos, rape little boys, or burn witches. Amazing, huh? And they didn't even have to pray into the air when a waiter brings food to their table, wear gold crosses, spend their Sundays on their knees, shooting abortion doctors, or tring to have teachers or lawyers or judges fired if they don't get into lock-step with the demands of the xian right's agenda.

I guess god works in mysterious ways, huh? Give the good life to those who can't believe the unbelievable and want some verifiable proof before allowing themselves to be beaten into submission by those who feel they have the burden of converting everyone to the ways of Jesus.

By the way, if atheists had a history of killing and torturing millions in hopes that they can "burn their bodies to save their souls" I would be the first in line to call myself anything else. There's enough ugliness in the world, so why would I want to associate myself with ugliness? I'm sorry, my friend, but xianity has a history that is way too filled with murder and greed and torture and lies and deception and I don't see how anyone with a clear conscience and honest heart can categorize themselves there.

Oh, and I forgot who mentioned HITLER way back when, but he was NOT an atheist. He was totally into superstitions and mythology, etc. He was, however, a vegetarian, and he was very nice to his dog and his mistress; so it goes to show you how you can't throw a label on someone and expect it to epitimize what they are and what they do.

By the way, to show you how open minded I am --- I've got WHAT DREAMS MAY COME playing on the TV right now. Great flick!

<small>[ March 21, 2004, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: batoutofhell ]</small>

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only people who can understand and type the english language belong here. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

yes, i am an atheist. . . .

religion is a political system, with a different figurehead, but a political system none the less. political in that it has a heirarchy, that it recruits followers with promises, it has rules to follow, and ideals.

the fact that there are many different ones currently in existance, and many before christianity, one should stand back and say, "what has been the purpose for man's creation of religion and God?"

my answer is that God is the embodiement of personal hope. the hope that one has when life events are beyond one's control, and uncomprehensible, the hope that one needs to bring some meaning to the unexplainable, and the unknown, particularly the future.

i have been to jerusalem, toured the holy sites, and i do believe that there was a great philospher named Jesus Christ that lived about 2 milleniums ago. . . and he tried to bring a political system, political stability to the region, where mostly, the people were very divided along tribal lines, and mostly an agrian society, in a location where agrian society was very difficult to farm and harvest. . . where unexplainable events were the norm. . .

however, as the world becomes smaller, and there unknowns become smaller, and medicine in particular becomes better and more knowledgeable, there is less need for religion in our daily lives, with the exception that we are all here by random chance, a speck in the universe, and once gone, we will be dead for a very long time. . .

life is wonderful, and difficult, the human experience can produce some very fun times, and some very difficult times. . . once you accept randomness as the prevailing pattern, then you will not need religion as much, but you will accept everday as another opportunity to live and learn. . with only ourselves and our memories as connections with the past. . .

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whenifindthetime --- very well written! I used to write stuff like that, but the fact is, xians aren't interested in the true history of religion or xianity. most xians don't know what the heck a catholic believes, or a Baptist, or a Mormon, or any of the other 200 denominations of ther own religion. It's scary. People will research buying a house or a car or a college for hours or days or weeks or months; but religious people don't do research on "the business of saving souls." Education has always been the enemy of religion.

Personally, i think it's kind of fun to talk to people who believe in religions and mytholgy and thier cast of characters. I wish xianity was more interesting, though. At least the Romans and Greeks had these sexy goddesses and perverted gods that were nailing mortal virgins and giving the warriors awesome gifts and hanging around on the battelfields, creating storms and other cool stuff.

A lot of very beautiful and inspirational concepts developed out of Asian religions.

Native Americans have rich and incredible and wonderful beliefs.

Wicca has some interestng concepts going for it. I have spoken to people who believe in other dimensions and aliens, etc. All of these things show a lot of creativity and these people smile and are filled with joy and wonder.

And then comes xianity with its angry old man in the sky who is too weak to destroy lucifer and who sent his only son to the desert 2,000 years ago, had him hang around with a prostitute and some closet homosexuals, and then decides to have him bleed to death on a cross; just so anyone who believes this happened can live forever in heaven, and anyone who existed and died before Jesus came to town, and all those who exist afterword and who don't buy into this story can all burn in hell --- which is run by Chief Burner General -- Lucifer. Oh, and it was really nice of god to make sure the poor innocent Jews got blamed for it all! Whatta guy!

Come to think of it; isn't Lucifer a GOOD GUY? After all, where would the whole story of salvation be if there wasn't an alternative? So is that why Jesus and his dad let Lucifer live and run rampant --- because HE needs him to run Hell? After all, who else is qualified to run that place and keep the fires burning? I mean, sure there are lots of meanies throughout history, but can they really be trusted to run the place right, for all eternity?

Oh, and IF the Jews did kill Jesus, doesn't that make them the good guys too? After all, where would humankind be if Jesus got run over by a fruit wagon or died of a STD instead?

This is all so silly.

Incidentally, I have changed my mind --- I think this sort of talk belongs on this MB site. here's why --- if your H or W buys into the whole Jesus story and you don't ... run to the hills! DO NOT HAVE CHILDREN with that person! Watch Carrie if you don't believe me.

Your kids don't need to be eating wafers, wearing crosses, and going from Santa Clause to "god" just so he or she doens't have to take responsibility for his or her own life and decisions.

On the other hand, IF you both believe in this stiff equally, get married and stay married so single atheists don't have to worry about xians being on the market --- except as prostitutes. But PLEASE, leave the kid alone. Let them read some books and make their own decisions about what they should or should not believe. It's the only right and fair thing to do.

<small>[ March 21, 2004, 10:36 PM: Message edited by: batoutofhell ]</small>

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BOOH,

I understand what you are saying. I have a couple of responses.

First...I am a Christian, not an Xian. I don't worship a bald man in a wheelchair; I worship who I believe is the Son of God/God Incarnate. I don't know if you do that as a jab...the way some try to eliminate "Christ" from even Christmas by writing Xmas, or if you are simply trying to be expedient, or lazy, in your responses by using the first Greek letter of Christ. I don't know why it bugs me, but it does. That's not to say that you should stop using it...I just wanted to state my "bug-gedness" about it.

Secondly, what I am hearing from you is not your hatred of Christians, per se, but rather your hatred of those who have set up organized religions in the name of Jesus Christ, while in their actions completely defile the name of Jesus Christ. Please do not confuse the two. Anyone can follow the teachins of Christ...He never said that we needed to belong to one church or the other. I know many people who believe in Christ, and live their lives according to His teachings, who have never stepped foot in a church, because of many of the same feelings you have. There is a huge difference between being a good Christian, and simply being the member of a church that labels itself a Christian Church. A lot of people in church, as well as out of church, aren't Christians. Please consider this.

As I am the resident Quotesmith, I would like to add the two following quotes, from one of my favorite authors, C.S. Lewis.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> C.S. Lewis 'Mere Christianity' page 10-11
Now if once we allow people to start spiritualising and refining, or as they might say "deepening," the sense of the word Christian, it too will speedily become a useless word [as gentlemen did]. In the first place, Christians themselves will never be able to apply it to anyone. It is not for us to say who, in the deepest sense, is or is not close to the spirit of Christ. We do not see into men's hearts. We cannot judge, and indeed are forbidden to judge. It would be wicked arrogance for us to say any man is, or is not, a Christian in this refined sense. And obviously a word that we can never apply is not going to be a very useful word. As for the unbelievers, they will no doubt cheerfully use the word in the refined sense. It will become in their mouth's simply a term of praise. In calling anyone a Christian they will mean that they think him a good man. But that way of using the word will be no enrichment of the language, for we already have the word good. Meanwhile, the word Christian will have been spoiled for any really useful purpose it might have served.

We must therefore stick to the original, obvious meaning. The name Christian was first given at Antioch (Acts 11:26) to "the disciples," to those who accepted the teaching of the apostles. There is no question of its being restricted to those who profited by that teaching as much as they should have. There is no question of its being extended to those who in some refined, spiritual, inward fashion were "far closer to the spirit of Christ" than the less satisfactory of the disciples. The point is not a theological, or moral one. It is only a questions of words so that we can all understand what is being said. When a man who accepts the Christian doctrine lives unworthily of it, it is much clearer to say he is a bad Christian than to say he is not a Christian.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And to WIFTTy...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> C.S. Lewis 'Mere Christianity' page 56

I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept his claim to be God." That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a good moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic-on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg-or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great moral teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.


</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">clay

<small>[ March 21, 2004, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: clay_6291 ]</small>

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First...I am a Christian, not an Xian. I don't worship a bald man in a wheelchair; I worship who I believe is the Son of God/God Incarnate. I don't know if you do that as a jab...the way some try to eliminate "Christ" from even Christmas by writing Xmas, or if you are simply trying to be expedient, or lazy, in your responses by using the first Greek letter of Christ. I don't know why it bugs me, but it does. That's not to say that you should stop using it...I just wanted to state my "bug-gedness" about it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, I used to write Xianity in hopes of annoying xians; but I recently found out that it is a normal and considerate way of spellig it. Something that has to do with the Greek thing. I don't know too much about it; but now i just write it because writing the word "christ" is silly.

Most xians incidentally, don't even know what the FISH symbol is for. I do. So I could actually draw a little fish instead of "christ" and there wouldn't even be any disrespect in that either.

Damn! Well, at least there are other fun ways to annoy xians like throwing bibles out of hotel rooms and into the toilet bowls and then the pools, which I do often.

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by batoutofhell:
<strong>
Fireandice - I really don't have anything further to add to this because it really isn't the place for it; but I would like to make one thing very clear. Yes, I dispise xian-insanity. I am a complete infidel. I am a 3rd generation atheist; but I never have been and never will be anti-semetic. My mom's side of the family are Jews. That of course qualifies me to be a "member of the club". I can't escape it and I am proud of it. It's a heritage. Kind of like being Italian or something. So let's just be clear on that, OK? The Jews have been through enough bull**** throughout history. Enough people hate them for no good reasons, and I have no desire to join the group of uneducated *******s who encourage hate on a gentle and spiritual and educated group that has always minded their own business and tried to improve their own lives.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, you are not anti-semitic, but you concur with this statement?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
MMOH said it best, "No knowledge of where we came from is going to come from reading a # of short books written by some bare-assed, half-starved, protein deficient, illiterate jews, wandering around in a desert, in a nomadic tribe, hallucninating from the oppressive heat and conditions in which they tried to eke out an existence." </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, I get it. You have no problem with the Jewish PEOPLE. But the Jewish religion is utter b******t, is that it? Well, at the risk of repeating myself, it seems obvious that your contempt for people of faith goes well beyond the realm of Christiantity.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
Xians on the other hand inspire a lot of hatred in "non-xians" by trying to shove their beliefs down everyone's throats. I am sure you are a nice guy. Of course there are nice xians out there who mean well, etc. But why in the world anyone would want to call themself a xian and to openly associate themselves with a group that has caused more misery and naked aggression against mankind than the Nazis is beyond my comprehension.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bat, I am truly sorry. But you are not alone in your lack of comprehension. That Jesus would love a worthless sinner like me enough to die for me is beyond my comprehension too. But I'm glad He did.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> There was no "son of god" Jesus, but even if there was --- HE would NOT be a xian. Especially since the mythical Jesus was a Jew. Doesn't that say it all? Honestly. If you want to be close to Jesus, then understand HIS religion as best you can. It seems a lot better than buying into the nonesense written by 70 different people, all over the world, with differents plitical agendas, over the course of 1,500 years.

The BIBLE is filled with so many contradictions! Honestly, how can you believe a word in it? If you are lookng for insipration, there are plenty of inspirational books out there. if you are looking for a hero, there are plenty of REAL heroes to admire; and if you are afraid to die,</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>

But I'm NOT afraid to die. Christians need not fear death. I don't want to get on the next bus, mind you, but I'm not afraid. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> then do something to immortalize your name and make a difference; but don't just believe a bunch of plagiarized fiction just in hopes of walking around on a cloud or in a garden in some fantasy called heaven with some boring, uneductaed nuns and priests and Jerry Falwell!

By the way, most of my friends are atheists, agnostics, humanists and other freethinkers and as far as I have been able to tell --- they don't drink, do drugs, gamble, beat their wives, cheat, steal, have tattoos, rape little boys, or burn witches. Amazing, huh? And they didn't even have to pray into the air when a waiter brings food to their table, wear gold crosses, spend their Sundays on their knees, shooting abortion doctors, or tring to have teachers or lawyers or judges fired if they don't get into lock-step with the demands of the xian right's agenda.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>

By the way, most of my friends are Christians, and as far as I have been able to tell --- they don't drink, do drugs, gamble, beat their wives, cheat, steal, have tattoos, rape little boys, or burn witches, or shoot abortion doctors. Amazing, huh? Especially when you consider how blood-thirsty some people think Christians are. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

I guess god works in mysterious ways, huh? Give the good life to those who can't believe the unbelievable and want some verifiable proof before allowing themselves to be beaten into submission by those who feel they have the burden of converting everyone to the ways of Jesus.

By the way, if atheists had a history of killing and torturing millions in hopes that they can "burn their bodies to save their souls" I would be the first in line to call myself anything else. There's enough ugliness in the world, so why would I want to associate myself with ugliness? I'm sorry, my friend, but xianity has a history that is way too filled with murder and greed and torture and lies and deception and I don't see how anyone with a clear conscience and honest heart can categorize themselves there.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>

I would say that it is HUMANITY that has the history that is way too filled with murder and greed and torture and lies and deception.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>

Oh, and I forgot who mentioned HITLER way back when, but he was NOT an atheist. He was totally into superstitions and mythology, etc. He was, however, a vegetarian, and he was very nice to his dog and his mistress; so it goes to show you how you can't throw a label on someone and expect it to epitimize what they are and what they do.

By the way, to show you how open minded I am --- I've got WHAT DREAMS MAY COME playing on the TV right now. Great flick! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hitler was a VEGAN???? Well, no wonder he whacked-out. Never trust a person who doesn't like steak! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

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I have never viewed this site as a Christian one (although it does have a prayer request forum which I assume is due to the fact that the owner of the site, Dr. Harley, is a professed Christian). In my opinion, however, this site is far more a non-Christian site than a Christian one. If there's anyone that doesn't "belong" here, it's Christians (of which I am one btw).

<small>[ March 22, 2004, 03:29 AM: Message edited by: LoveMyEx ]</small>

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post deleted/don't want to be a part of this thread

<small>[ March 22, 2004, 03:25 AM: Message edited by: LoveMyEx ]</small>

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