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<small>[ March 22, 2004, 03:24 AM: Message edited by: LoveMyEx ]</small>

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Actually, I used to write Xianity in hopes of annoying xians; but I recently found out that it is a normal and considerate way of spellig it. Something that has to do with the Greek thing. I don't know too much about it; but now i just write it because writing the word "christ" is silly.

Most xians incidentally, don't even know what the FISH symbol is for. I do. So I could actually draw a little fish instead of "christ" and there wouldn't even be any disrespect in that either.

Damn! Well, at least there are other fun ways to annoy xians like throwing bibles out of hotel rooms and into the toilet bowls and then the pools, which I do often.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BatoutofHell....it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that you're *TRYING* to start a war here. What gives?

The terms of service state that discussions are to be RESPECTFUL. I see no respect in your post at all. How sad that a group of adults can't have a decent discussion about religion, without people crossing the line of what is acceptable.

For the sake of the Christians here, I certainly hope that their faith allows them the strength to ignore your post and the hatefulness that it implies.

Shame on you.

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clay,

the C.S. Lewis quote is just another opinion, so what is your point??

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by *^aeri^*:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Actually, I used to write Xianity in hopes of annoying xians; but I recently found out that it is a normal and considerate way of spellig it. Something that has to do with the Greek thing. I don't know too much about it; but now i just write it because writing the word "christ" is silly.

Most xians incidentally, don't even know what the FISH symbol is for. I do. So I could actually draw a little fish instead of "christ" and there wouldn't even be any disrespect in that either.

Damn! Well, at least there are other fun ways to annoy xians like throwing bibles out of hotel rooms and into the toilet bowls and then the pools, which I do often.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BatoutofHell....it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that you're *TRYING* to start a war here. What gives?

The terms of service state that discussions are to be RESPECTFUL. I see no respect in your post at all. How sad that a group of adults can't have a decent discussion about religion, without people crossing the line of what is acceptable.

For the sake of the Christians here, I certainly hope that their faith allows them the strength to ignore your post and the hatefulness that it implies.

Shame on you. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Aeri, these are my sentiments exactly. Thank you for your post for were I to say the same it would probably be dismissed as one of the Christians being defensive about the whole thing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BatoutofHell....it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that you're *TRYING* to start a war here. What gives?

The terms of service state that discussions are to be RESPECTFUL. I see no respect in your post at all. How sad that a group of adults can't have a decent discussion about religion, without people crossing the line of what is acceptable.

For the sake of the Christians here, I certainly hope that their faith allows them the strength to ignore your post and the hatefulness that it implies.

Shame on you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*^aeri^* - batoutofhell is a very angry and bitter OP. He is very angry that the woman he chose to commit adultery with is now after him like a crazed sadist. He continues to justify himself as the "innocent" party, blames his "need" to be her consenting adulterer upon her homosexual and abusive husband and his desire to be her "white knight", and thinks that he alone is the "victim" in this case.

It is quite typical of many to "blame someone else" for their own stupid mistakes. And Christianity is often the "focus" of that rage and animosity because God has set a "set of standards" that all people are to obey or suffer the consequences. Most people "rail" and "rant" about anyone being a "higher authority" than themselves and continue to serve "self-interest" as their personal "god."

What so many who rant about Christianity either fail to see, or willingly choose to ignore, is that Christianity is the only "faith" that is based upon reliable, proveable, scientific fact.

In response, and to keep their self-directed desires as supreme, they claim ridiculous things about Christianity (i.e., see the previous post that lists quoted opinions from avowed atheists and unbelievers as the "final proof that their position is "truth".) In short, they do precisely what the Scripture tells us that they will do, they "worship" the "created" over the Creator.

As this thread has shown, it is "fair game" to attack, demean, and vilify anything "Christian", but heaven help us (pun intended) if we speak out for Christ or against sin. For example, it was stated that someone never saw non-Christians advocating anything that would be harmful to others, or thoughts along that line. Let me simply point to ONE example, among the plethora of examples, that refutes such a spacious and utterly false statement....NAMBLA.

But take heart all who know Christ as their Lord and Savior, these "times" are predicted and must come to pass. One can choose to believe that fire will not burn and hurt, at least up until the fateful day that they find themselves cast into the furnace (or microwave if you prefer a modern convenience) and that they must then face the reality of their willful, or misinformed, belief.

"I am the way, the truth and the life..." Truth is simply that....truth, whether we choose to accept it or not. It is not the Christian's duty to "convert" anyone. It is simply our duty to proclaim the truth and each individual is responsible for their own acceptance or rejection of Jesus Christ.

So, in answer to the original thread question, "do non Christians, atheists and agnostics belong here?", the answer is YES...and so do Christians. Sin is sin and has painful consequences. Part of being "Christian" is to try to help others in need, whether they themselves are Christians or not. You cannot "force" help on anyone who doesn't want it, and things of God are "foolishness" to unbelievers anyway. So help where you can, but know that it is always THEIR choice as to whether or not to accept and implement any help that is proffered.

Remember, much of what you "hear" posted here is being posted by individuals with emotions and passions raging and out of control. They are, in most cases, reacting emotionally and intolerant of anything that they perceive as potentially adding to the pain that they already feel, like introspection often causes. There are some, who violently oppose any notion of Christianity because they know that their chosen "lifestyle" would have to change if they willingly submitted their lives to the "lordship" of anyone but themselves. Regardless of their motivation, you cannot "change them." Change comes from within the individual.

You can offer a "reason for why you believe what you believe" so that perhaps others not so dogmatic in their hatred of, or opposition to, Christianity may see that Christinity is founded upon a "proven, real, legitimate PERSON." That person is Jesus Christ, who lived, died, and bodily rose from the dead to set free from eternal death all who would willingly accept the gift that He offers.

Think of it this way, if it helps, you cannot remove the gun from the hand of the person bent on suicide as their "best choice and the best belief for their life." THEY have to come to the point of realization that suicide is NOT the best answer and that there IS another way. But to commit suicide or not to is up to the individual regardless of how YOU "know" it's the wrong choice and try to help them to understand it.

It's also interesting to see, as the preponderance of this thread attests, that we are, as a Nation, rapidly becoming a country where we want "Freedom FROM religion" and not "Freedom OF religion." All that the "Founding Fathers" ever intended with the drafting of our constitution was that the federal government NOT establish a "State Religion."

They left it up to the people to have freedom of religion not freedom from religion. Some were atheists, some were agnostics, some were Christians. They left the "evils" that came from abuses of State sponsored religion and declared that ALL faiths (religious or non-religious) were welcome in this new nation and that NONE of them would be "Forced down the throats of all Americans as the 'recognized' and 'only' State religion."

<small>[ March 22, 2004, 07:36 AM: Message edited by: ForeverHers ]</small>

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Sounds like this topic was the place to be last weekend. Sorry I missed out on all the "fun".

Forever - Thank you for the background on Bat. It is obvious he is really hurting - shame to unleash it in such an outlandish way but that is apparently his coping mechanism right now. This is the perfect example of why Jesus' grace and mercy is so needed now. Your insights were right on and God bless you today!

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To ForeverHers -
Good reply
I know, this is OT - We were in a discussion before about losing salvation. I believe a person can lose it because there are several examples in this thread where I think it is clearly demonstrated. (My intent is not to hijack this thread).

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batoutofhell,

--Damn! Well, at least there are other fun ways to annoy xians like throwing bibles out of hotel rooms and into the toilet bowls and then the pools, which I do often.--

TR--I can't speak for others, but this actually wouldn't annoy me either--


Separation of Church and State? or Separation from Church and State--you decide--


Pennsylvania 1776, Preamble. We, the people of Pennsylvania, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and
humbly invoking His guidance--

Vermont 1777, Preamble. Whereas all government ought to ... enable the individuals who compose it to enjoy their natural rights, and other
blessings which the Author of Existence has bestowed on man

Virginia 1776, Bill of Rights, XVI .. Religion, or the Duty which we owe our Creator .. can be directed only by Reason ... and that it is the
mutual duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each other ..

South Carolina, 1778, Preamble. We, the people of he State of South Carolina. grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this Constitution.

Maryland 1776, Preamble. We, the people of the state of Maryland, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberty

Massachusetts 1780, Preamble. We...the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging with grateful hearts, the goodness of the Great Legislator of the Universe ... in the course of His Providence, an opportunity .and devoutly imploring His direction

Georgia 1777, Preamble. We, the people of Georgia, relying upon protection and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this
Constitution...

New Hampshire 1792, Part I. Art. I. Sec. V. Every individual has a natural and unalienable right to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience.

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Well, I actually agree with most of the things BOOH is saying.

But I think I disagree with his approach.

I would encourage ALL to have respect. It's great to disagree, even better to say why you believe like you do, but please be respectful.

Wiffty, extremely well said.

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Atheists don't burn books. Atheists don't tell people how to think or what to do </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">a) Obviously they just throw them into swimming pools or out windows to destroy them, rather than burn them. Big Difference.

b) Atheists don't tell people how to think or what to do? Then what are you, BOOH?, because by your own definition....you are not an Atheist.


bp22...I respect everyone's opinion, because all too often they prove Mark Twain correct...

"It's better to let everyone think you a fool, than to open your mouth and eliminate ALL doubt!"

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hurting Promise Keeper:
<strong> Forever - Thank you for the background on Bat. It is obvious he is really hurting - shame to unleash it in such an outlandish way but that is apparently his coping mechanism right now. This is the perfect example of why Jesus' grace and mercy is so needed now. Your insights were right on and God bless you today! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is so easy to attack the messenger when one disagrees with themessage. BOOH, whatever your background, keep your opinions coming: they are a nice foil to all the christian proselytizing that goes on here.

If I hear again how the founding fathers were all christians I think I'm going to puke. Anyone ever read Thomas Paine's Age of Reason? Anyone even know who he was? Is he still taught in American History?

http://libertyonline.hypermall.com/Paine/AOR-Frame.html

For those who do not wish to read a long treatise . . . the following quote pretty much sums up the thought of one of the origional founding fathers.

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

Love and peace to you all. Really. I mean it.

<small>[ March 22, 2004, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: Comfortably Numb ]</small>

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Numb and all others that are misquoting Thomas Paine. This is an excerpt from Thomas Paine's "Age of Reason" This clearly demonstrates that he believed in GOD. He may have been against organized religion but clearly he had respect for a higher power.

CHAPTER I - THE AUTHOR'S PROFESSION OF FAITH.
IT has been my intention, for several years past, to publish my thoughts upon religion; I am well aware of the difficulties that attend the subject, and from that consideration, had reserved it to a more advanced period of life. I intended it to be the last offering I should make to my fellow-citizens of all nations, and that at a time when the purity of the motive that induced me to it could not admit of a question, even by those who might disapprove the work.

The circumstance that has now taken place in France, of the total abolition of the whole national order of priesthood, and of everything appertaining to compulsive systems of religion, and compulsive articles of faith, has not only precipitated my intention, but rendered a work of this kind exceedingly necessary, lest, in the general wreck of superstition, of false systems of government, and false theology, we lose sight of morality, of humanity, and of the theology that is true.

As several of my colleagues, and others of my fellow-citizens of France, have given me the example of making their voluntary and individual profession of faith, I also will make mine; and I do this with all that sincerity and frankness with which the mind of man communicates with itself.

I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life.

I believe the equality of man, and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy.

But, lest it should be supposed that I believe many other things in addition to these, I shall, in the progress of this work, declare the things I do not believe, and my reasons for not believing them.

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.

I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe otherwise; they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine. But it is necessary to the happiness of man, that he be mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving; it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe.

It is impossible to calculate the moral mischief, if I may so express it, that mental lying has produced in society. When a man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime. He takes up the trade of a priest for the sake of gain, and, in order to qualify himself for that trade, he begins with a perjury. Can we conceive anything more destructive to morality than this?

Soon after I had published the pamphlet COMMON SENSE, in America, I saw the exceeding probability that a revolution in the system of government would be followed by a revolution in the system of religion. The adulterous connection of church and state, wherever it had taken place, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, had so effectually prohibited, by pains and penalties, every discussion upon established creeds, and upon first principles of religion, that until the system of government should be changed, those subjects could not be brought fairly and openly before the world; but that whenever this should be done, a revolution in the system of religion would follow. Human inventions and priest-craft would be detected; and man would return to the pure, unmixed, and unadulterated belief of one God, and no more.

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As for the founding fathers of our nation here are some links that may intersest you. Really the Indians lived here first but if you are talking about why America is America then check these out.


http://history.hanover.edu/texts/adamss.html

http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/revolution/mayflower.htm

http://pilgrims.net/plymouth/history/

http://www.csustan.edu/english/reuben/pal/chap1/chap1.html

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0840557.html


And just so you know I was Roman Catholic until age 9 when I became a devout atheist, and at age 34 GOD reentered my life. I am a christian and proud of my Father. How else could you explain your miniscule exsistence in this universe?

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Lion:

I have not misquoted Thomas Paine. I put in an exact quote. Why would I post a link to the work of issue if I was going to then misquote it? Sorry. You're wrong, again.

Further, this discussion is about Christianinty . . . not a belief in God. So, you are zero for two. Keep swinging . . . eventually you may get lucky.

I'm sorry for your childhood and your pent-up hostility.

<small>[ March 22, 2004, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: Comfortably Numb ]</small>

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ok, I think there is some confusion going on. There are many of us here who believe in God, we don't believe in organized religion, nor do we believe that the bible is inerrant. Because of that we have been told we are NOT Christians, NOT saved, etc. It seems that many Christians are of the opinion that you can't be a Christian without devoutly studying the bible and attending a church. Yet, they also turn right around and say the only way to salvation is with a personal relationship with Christ and belief in his death and resurrection, as well as the trinity.


On a different note, this is an interesting site that I found when further looking into the origination of the bible, the various translations, etc.
Not for the reading of the vast majority of Christians, but some of the rest of you might be interested in reading it.
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhlintro.html


Every time I come to this message board these days I end up with the song "where is the love" by black eyed peas running through my head!!

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Dear Numb,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Further, this discussion is about Christianinty . . . not a belief in God. So, you are zero for two. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, this is, according to the title, a discussion about NON -CHRISTIANS, ATHEISTS , AND AGNOSTICS .

Perhaps you'd like to read the title again?

(Are you always this rude?)

clay

<small>[ March 22, 2004, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: clay_6291 ]</small>

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by clay_6291:
<strong> Dear Numb,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Further, this discussion is about Christianinty . . . not a belief in God. So, you are zero for two. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, this is, according to the title, a discussion about NON -CHRISTIANS, ATHEISTS , AND AGNOSTICS .

Perhaps you'd like to read the title again?


(Are you always this rude?)

clay </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I'm usually pretty nice. I just don't like zealots.

This entire discussion has been about Christianity. . . perhaps you would care to read the previous posts . . . not just the title of the thread?

I would ask you if you were always so rude . . . but I have read your previous posts so I already know the answer.

<small>[ March 22, 2004, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: Comfortably Numb ]</small>

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Hi Jill,

I haven't talked with you in ages. Would love to know how the dating is going? As I recall you love antique cars, I hope I am correct in remembering that...Is this still one of your passions? I also think you may have had two guy interest at the time. Is it still going that good? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Anyway, on your topic. All people belong here, and that is probably the problem. I have seen athiest and agnostics, pushing their views on here, telling Christians they shouldn't think this way or that way and they should not believe the way they do, and calling Christian's "Bible thumpers" or other names, thinking this is okay to call them these names, as much as I see Christians and religious people pushing their views on people.

When you have such a diverse group of people it is to be expected, and even though, some, no matter what their beliefs, can get disrespectful, I think that for the most part, people have to expect that when they post for advice, all religions, agnostics, athiests, etc., will "push" their beliefs on what they think is correct on others. Why would they say something they didn't believe?

Take care and hope this helps a little,

Anna

<small>[ March 22, 2004, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</small>

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Hmmmmm.......

Numb's an over-zealous anti-zealot.

Interesting. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

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Numb,

For your clarification:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If I hear again how the founding fathers were all Christians I think I'm going to puke. Anyone ever read Thomas Paine's Age of Reason? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have not misquoted Thomas Paine. I put in an exact quote. Why would I post a link to the work of issue if I was going to then misquote it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry here you are wrong clearly Thomas Paine gives a statement of faith. Just because he doesn't subscribe to organized religion doesn't mean he isn't a Christian.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Further, this discussion is about Christianity . . . not a belief in God </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey your 0 for 2. The original post was about non-Christians, Atheist, and Agnostics belonging here. Which incidentally I believe all faiths or non-faiths have a right to be here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry for your childhood and your pent-up hostility. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">0 for 3. I am not here because of my childhood nor do I have pent up hostility. I am here because I want my marriage to be better. I just found it interesting how people who are not of the Christian faith find it so easy to attack us. But send me your address and I will promptly send you my insurance info. Certainly you qualify as some kind of doctor or therapist making that kind of diagnosis. And last but not least and really this is my favorite.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Zealot:
Pronunciation: 'ze-l&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Late Latin zelotes, from Greek zElOtEs, from zElos
1 capitalized : a member of a fanatical sect arising in Judea during the first century A.D. and militantly opposing the Roman domination of Palestine
2 : a zealous person; especially : a fanatical partisan </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am gonna take it that you meant the second definition since we are not in the first century A.D. Am I fanatical partisan because I have the faith that there is a here after. Or are you the Zealot because you vehemently deny GOD.

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