Thorned Rose,
Thanks for that link! I was trying to find one like that. I have seen some stuff from the primers and knew they were very Christian in nature because it was important then for the children to be taught God's Word. But I couldn't find anything online so I appreciate that link. As a public school teacher, it is interesting (and sad) to see how "far" we've "strayed" from our Christian roots. I believe the problems in our society (which I see manifested in the children's lives in my classroom) are a result. It is the law of sowing and reaping.

SJ,
I am at my computer needing to do HW and did this research as a major procrastination break! But now I better get it done since I have class in about an hour and half!

-----After reading such hostility and even what I would consider, blasphemies, against God and against godly men (in this thread... of which are not surprising because people have hated God since the beginning of time and will continue to until He returns), it literally sent chills up my spine (to the point that I sensed evil and did not want to be in the midst of it). After doing some quick research on things I knew but couldn't articulate off the top of my head, I feel "inspired" and wonderfully reminded of why America is the nation that it is.

If it weren't for its Christian roots, in fact, it'd be a whole different story. So many nations today still face civil wars, oppression, anarchy, slavery, massive wide-spread poverty and disease... they still practice things like vodoo and human sacrifice, and so on. And it is a direct result of the fact that these nations, as a whole, do not acknowledge the Creator. They do not believe or give thanks to a God and they do worse, they worship false images and idols.

Interestingly, Christianity is spreading at a more rapid rate in many of these countries than it is in the U.S. It seems that God is working overseas and many people are converting to Christianity.

<small>[ March 23, 2004, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: LoveMyEx ]</small>

ComfNumb,

The debate on T. Paine goes both ways and I'm sure will go on forever. Since he's dead, we can't ask him. Perhaps he was the "Judas" of the Founding Fathers. Perhaps there were indeed other Founding Fathers who didn't truly believe.

The fact remains... this country was founded on Christianity and a belief in God as Creator and Jesus Christ as Savior. All one has to do is look at such things like the Pledge of Allegiance, money ("in God we trust"), patriotic songs, historical documents, early American textbooks, and so on. Even our Constitution which is the basis of our laws.

The laws of our nation stemmed from the laws of God (10 Commandments). It is God Himself who created a system of laws because laws PROTECT people. People view God and His laws as stifling or antiquated or simply mythical and nonsense, but they are not. They are protections for us because He loves us.

If we all followed the commandment "Do not kill," we'd have no murders. If we all obeyed the command of "Do not commit adultery," most of us wouldn't be on this website grieving over our marriages. If we obeyed the command of "Do not steal," we could trust people and not worry about thieves, etc. If we obeyed His laws, peace would rule the land.

It is our sin that causes us to break His laws and do "our thing." And the result is pain, suffering, and even lawlessness (perhaps not in America, but in many places in the world). However, we have a Savior and it is through His blood that we are forgiven for breaking all the laws. If it weren't for Him, we'd all receive the punishment we deserve because we are all lawbreakers. Unfortunately, many people (like yourself) refuse to believe and thus, do not receive God's forgiveness offered freely through Jesus Christ because they remain lawbreakers. Their sin separates them from God. Only Jesus can bridge that separation.

You cannot be forced to believe any of this and perhaps there is a war waging in your soul in which you refuse to believe. I can see it in what you've written here. You think all of this is stupid, foolishness, and arrogance perhaps. You think Christians are judemental and try to force their doctrine upon you. That, my friend, is conviction.

Any person in America is free to speak about God (thanks to those Founding Fathers and Pilgrims who began this nation). In other countries, it is not so. People are beat, imprisoned, tortured, and killed for speaking the name of God or Jesus or Christianity.

I understand that there are those on this board who dislike Chrisitans "proselytizing" but we have an amendment in our Constitution that gives us Americans the right to free speech (within bounds). Thus, we are free to speak about God just as you are free to speak about your hate for God or your beliefs against God. I am free to tell you that there is a God who loves you and you are free to call me a moron.

Anyhow, I rarely offer direct Biblical advice to those here unless they are Christians who are likeminded. However, when we tell others to not commit adultery, we are giving them Biblical advice. When we admonish men on here to love their wives, we are giving Biblical advice. When we say to a man here that he needs to not call his OW, it is because he ought to love his wife and calling his OW is not loving. Biblical advice. Whether you realize it or not, advice can be given that is Biblical but yet not outrightly stated that it is such.

I still personally believe very strongly that this site is far more a non-Christian site than a Christian one simply because of philosophies and types of advice given. Although, I have felt that there are more Christians in the infedelity board, which seems odd, but I think maybe it is because they have reached a place of complete brokenness and despair and often, that is when we turn to God. Just a hypotheses of my own.

If God does not exist (and we are therefore not created with an omniagenda), then upon what basis do we make decsions, IOW how do we order our lives... this is mostly for you bp22, atheism is illogical (and is actually a relgion itself anyways).

Keep in mind that it is necessary to make decisions constantly, and making them in the absence of a difinitive set of principles is simply making default reactive decisons, there is no null decision, life does not allow for that option.

After you mull over the above (if so inclinded) what is the problem with believeing God exists? (a proof that is not necessarily easy, but can be done using atheists own tools). IMO atheists define the notion of hypocrisy, they are generally (in my experience) "worse" than Christians in holding on to illogical postions...a curious phenomena considering their dependence on logic.

Jillybean,

Please ignore this post. I am speaking to all of those who have hijacked this thread, including myself since I have joined in. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


I just have one questions for all the atheists out there? If I believe in God and He doesn't exist, when I die, what have I lost?

If you don't believe in God and He does exist, when you die, what have you gained?

If you think all Christians are hypocrites, then become one and show the rest of us how to be a perfect christian. God knows I could use a good example, as I am the worst. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


I'm precious

Isn't it hilarious? Atheists spend a lot of time and energy trying to convince you that something doesn't exist. If it doesn't exist, then why are you trying to prove that it doesn't exist.

<small>[ March 24, 2004, 07:02 AM: Message edited by: Wilson48 ]</small>

sufdb,

While I am a believer, and not an Atheist, I see a problem in your argument...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Keep in mind that it is necessary to make decisions constantly, and making them in the absence of a difinitive set of principles is simply making default reactive decisons, there is no null decision, life does not allow for that option. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It sounds as if you are stating a belief that Atheists do not have a well-defined set of principles. That's a pretty big leap...

I have friends who aren't believers, but they are people with values and principles. Most of them are in line with mine, in fact. The only difference is that I believe in a Lord and Savior, and they do not. Most of my friends who call themselves Atheists would really fall into the "Humanist" category.

But to say that because someone doesn't have "Christian" values and principles, they don't have any at all, is wrong.

My other point was this...many Christians I know believe that God is in control, all the time. They believe that He guides us in our decisions, if we allow Him to. So how does that fit into your argument? If God is in control, then how do OUR principles effect our decisions? If our lives are "pre-ordained", then what difference does our "free will" have? How do "Free Will" and "Pre-Ordained" co-exist?

I know that you didn't address some of these issues, and this isn't an attack. Just part of a friendly discussion...so don't get all upset. I'm just curious how other's think about certain things.

clay

Clay posted: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have friends who aren't believers, but they are people with values and principles. Most of them are in line with mine, in fact. The only difference is that I believe in a Lord and Savior, and they do not. Most of my friends who call themselves Atheists would really fall into the "Humanist" category.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Atheists can be morally upright. People do construct fine ethical systems without God. Even so, questions linger: “Why ought I to be moral at all?” “Why should I do the right thing if it doesn’t pay off?” “Why do human beings have dignity and value?” The God of theism offers solid grounding for moral obligation, accounting for a number of facts that naturalism can’t explain.

Although the non-theist may believe that objective moral values exist without reference to God, there is an ultimate question: What underlies those objective moral values? How did we get to be that way—moral beings who recognize right and wrong? We have to be moral beings before we can know what is moral. Randomness and chance can't make sense out of moral obligation or human dignity.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How do "Free Will" and "Pre-Ordained" co-exist?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is a tension our finite minds cannot comprehend.

"For indeed, the Son of Man is going as it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!" (Luke 22:22)

clay, if I was proposing atheists have no principles I would have specifically said that. My point was if an argument was offered along the lines of just live life, enjoy the moment, one doesn't "need" a plan, then that itself is a plan, and not a very good one.

I have debated with many atheists, they usually just get mad at me because I don't discuss "Christianity", I use their own "logic" to debunk the atheist conclusion...and that just seems to irritate them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by i'm precious:
<strong>I just have one questions for all the atheists out there? If I believe in God and He doesn't exist, when I die, what have I lost?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your sunday mornings, and if you tithe as the Bible says to, 10% of your income.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Wilson48:
<strong>Atheists spend a lot of time and energy trying to convince you that something doesn't exist. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>

I wouldn't bother trying to argue that there is no such thing as God, because I can't know that for sure. What I do know is that the Bible is not the "infallible" word of God, as Christians generally believe it is.

Also, it is like telling a child that there is no such thing as Santa Claus. If people want to believe in God though, it's no skin off of my nose.

Hootie...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It is a tension our finite minds cannot comprehend. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds like a fancy way of saying "I don't know" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We have to be moral beings before we can know what is moral. Randomness and chance can't make sense out of moral obligation or human dignity. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One might argue that being good to your fellow man, and the development of morality, could be the result of an evolutionary process. Through trial and error, mankind could have learned that it is more expedient and more rewarding to be nice to their fellow man/woman, as opposed to being completely self-serving. As there are always variations in the gene pool, some of the species may not have learned, or could have chosen to ignore, those lessons.

Thoughts?
sufdb...

I'm glad you didn't mean that Atheists have no principles. I think, though, that if you go back and read your original statement objectively, you could see how someone could come to that conclusion.

clay

<small>[ March 24, 2004, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: clay_6291 ]</small>

clay...One might argue that being good to your fellow man, and the development of morality, could be the result of an evolutionary process. Through trial and error, mankind could have learned that it is more expedient and more rewarding to be nice to their fellow man/woman, as opposed to being completely self-serving. As there are always variations in the gene pool, some of the species may not have learned, or could have chosen to ignore, those lessons.

sufdb... Yes, morality is a biochemical manifestation of evolutionary pressures, as it must be. However, if one believes we are created beings then the evolutionary principles are divine. We "understand" them using science, because our brains were created with that capacity.... The Bible just spells them out directly, there will be no conflict between the two methods of examining moral principles (aka right and wrong) because they are the same, as they must be.

Actually there is an article in Discovery magazine this month about exactly that, the evbolutionary sources of right/wrong ...ethics/morality. You might enjoy that.

clay..I'm glad you didn't mean that Atheists have no principles. I think, though, that if you go back and read your original statement objectively, you could see how someone could come to that conclusion.

sufdb...I understand how you concluded that, which is why I did not chastiste you for the conclusion (albeit mistaken). This venue of communication requires shortcuts if one is to get much accomplished...IMO it is best to assume nothing beyond what is actually written, as it is written.....but if there seems the need, then ask for clarification, as you did.

<small>[ March 24, 2004, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

Even if there be no hereafter, I would live my time believing in a grand thing that ought to be true if it is not...Let me hold by the better than the actual, and fall into nothingness off the same precipice with Jesus and John and Paul and a thousand more, who were lovely in their lives, and with their deaths make even the nothingness into which they have passed like the garden of the Lord.

Thomas Wingfold

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Actually there is an article in Discovery magazine this month about exactly that, the evbolutionary sources of right/wrong ...ethics/morality. You might enjoy that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I haven't seen that article yet, but Discover is one of my W and my's favorite magazines. I have to say, though, that it has lost a lot since being taken over by the Penthouse/Bob Guccione group. It seems to be a lot more commercially minded than scientifically minded now. I lean towards Scientific American now.

clay

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by clay_6291:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Actually there is an article in Discovery magazine this month about exactly that, the evbolutionary sources of right/wrong ...ethics/morality. You might enjoy that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I haven't seen that article yet, but Discover is one of my W and my's favorite magazines. I have to say, though, that it has lost a lot since being taken over by the Penthouse/Bob Guccione group. It seems to be a lot more commercially minded than scientifically minded now. I lean towards Scientific American now.

clay </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Penthouse? Crimany, there oughta be a law...

Sci Am has a related article this month as well, called half the brain, the two articles tie in nicely together.....you would probably also enjoy steven pinkers books, especially one About How the Mind Works (or some such)...has a lot about emotions, morality, kinship bonds etc as relates to cognition, genetics, and evolution...


Enjoy.

Well, I wrote back last night, but my LONG post was lost. Didn't have the strength to write it again! Yeah, I know, use a text editor...

Let me address the one issue. What is the problem with religion? Why do I think such a belief if bad?

I'll summarize what I wrote last night.

1. My personal experience in life...my early life (until 18 or so) was very born again like. Yet I also believed in science, so I always tried to "justify" the two together...even taught sunday school a few times to tell everyone what I had "found". Well, after physics, I lost all need for faith. And that's what I think of religion, I think it is a "need". It answers the hard questions, fills people with hope, and provides them a sense of safety, importance, love, eternal life, etc.

Is that a bad thing?

Well, I think it can be...and here is why.

A. My STBX looked at me during my months of tyring to reach her, tell her about my yearnings and longings, and she said "You need jesus". She never looked within herself, she never tried to make an attempt, she never could "grab the brass ring" and run with what life has to offer. I think anytime that religoin gets in the way of a relationship, especially a marriage, it is a VERY bad thing. Yeah, I agree, my STBX might be an extreme rare case. Many here seem to have both faith and a sense of personal development, desire, etc. I can understand how my (and her) upbringing might have been to "extreme" of a brainwashing.

B. I got married at 20. I picked my mate at 12. I know both of these were stronly influenced by religion. I wanted to have sex. I was horny. So I got married. Geez. What a mistake.

C. And this is my biggest problem with religion. I said before, I think religion fills a "need" that people have. Hence my wife's comment...you need jesus. Well, I think that prevents people from finding the real answers, from learning and exploring, and from trusting in themselves. I think people leave to much up to "faith" without fully exploring the possibilities.

Prayer is a wonder example. I despise the attitude of "I'll pray for you", or "I felt the power of your prayers". What's with the power of prayers? Why not just feel this strength, hope, and desire YOURSELF...why do you need to think people are praying for you in order to do so? What if you pissed off your church friends...will no one pray then? And you'll just lie in your bed, and without the power of prayer, die? LOL Silly, yes, but it's the exact idea.

To me, people who accept things on faith, they answer their questions without having to learn, to study, to search themselves.

I think that cuases a lot of low self esteem. I think that is a significant cause in the depression we see. If as a society we depended on ourselves, our own answers, our own ability to question, experiment, and understand, I think we'd be MUCH better off.

Medicine is a wonderful example. Thank god (LOL) that scientist and doctors don't put all their faith in jesus. Luckily they ask questions about how things work, and experiement, and then understand. Becuase of those things, and those things alone, medicine has come a long way.

I don't think the bible has offered any guidance in the world of medicine, science, etc. I think it only provides the answers for the masses, answer that require no thought, no process, no experimentation.

On a clear dark night, many people look up I guess and marvel for 20 seconds about the beauty god created. Then they go inside, sit in front of the TV, and waste a few hours before going to sleep. LOL NO, I'm not saying christians do this...I am saying most americans seem to do this.

On the other hand, there are those who will sit, stare, and marvel for hours. And then they ask the questions. And then they do the experiment. And then THEY understand.

So, that's my biggest peeve with religion. I think it was created as a manner to keep "social order" and also to answer people's questions.

Every society in history, far as I know anyways, from the most remote indian tribe, to the city dwellers, they have all conjured up dietys of some form. I think to answer the "great questions", like why are we here? Where did we come from? Why are we different than birds, etc. And also for social control. It is a wonderful way to get people to be controlled...this religion...and with that control you can do mighty things.

You can fund your mansion, you can blow up people you don't like, you can get armies to march and fight in his name, you can do all sorts of gibberish...with nothing more than this blind faith.

That really bothers me. I think people are like sheep, they want to be led, and they are very content to be led. Answer their questions, give them eternal hope, and VOILA...you have an army.

That indeed can be taken as a DJ or major stroke with a really wide brush. But mostly, I think it is very accurate. There are ALWAYS some exceptions, perhaps many of them, but by and large...in my experience in life, it fits very well.

As for source of morality without religion, I think that developed as social civilazation developed. Wolves live in packs...they thrive better. As do lions. As do herds of antelope, etc. People also are very social critters. We live in packs. Some of us perfer the much smaller packs...LOL...like living in the boonies. But anyways, social critters we are. I think we have developed a sense of compassion, of love, of caring for others, and I think without religion, we would still have that.

There are crooked and selfish people, religious or not. I think our current administration might be a great example of that. I know our corporate leaders most certainly are.

Slappy mentioned santa claus...I had a long comparison of santa and god. LOL They are very similar in my mind. One we outgrow at age 10 or so, one we don't. I think society would be much better off if we all accepted them both as tales...and just relied on ourselves, each other, and searched for the answers.

People always say there's no atheist in foxholes. Well, I'll say this, there's no faith when your on the operating table, either. LMAO

Sure, you'll have faith that you'll awake and the lord's will will be aligned with your own, to live, but why go under the knife anyways?

That is what I think is so "hypocritical" and shows the absolute failure for religion. People adopt modern science and technology whenever it fits them. But when the same science and technology starts to put their beliefs in question, they run for the hills, call it hersey and try and burn people at the stake. literally. Or stop stem cell research.

I wonder, when in 40 years, and you can pop a stem cell from your brain or wherever, and grow a new heart for your body. I wonder if the christians will be doing it, or will they still refuse?

I know the answer...and when they look back to 2003 and read all the fighting the fundamentalist did, they will have to brush it off somehow....Hmmm, let me see, what will be the rationalization then??

I live my life in near agreement with religious views. But I don't cling to the "rewards" it has to offer. In fake, I rebuke them all as bonk. I don't need rewards to do the right thing, to help others, to be considerate. I get my own rewards, I feel good. I believe it is the proper thing to do. I won't go to heaven, nor hell. My life here for 80 years will not determine my ETERNITY. I won't get to see my dead children (miscarriages), my dead brother (he 4, me 6), or my dead dog. I'll die like everyone else, leaving behind only what I have left.

I think people should lose the faith, and find the desire to really learn the answers. Seek out the reason, and understand them.

I do think it holds society back. Back big surprise, that is EXACTLY what it is intended to do.

Slap posted: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Also, it is like telling a child that there is no such thing as Santa Claus. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BP similarly posted: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Slappy mentioned santa claus...I had a long comparison of santa and god. LOL They are very similar in my mind. One we outgrow at age 10 or so, one we don't. I think society would be much better off if we all accepted them both as tales... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To place belief in Santa Claus or mermaids and belief in God on the same level is mistaken. The issue is not that we have no good evidence for these mythical entities; rather, we have strong evidence that they do not exist. Absence of evidence is not at all the same as evidence of absence, which some atheists fail to see.

Hootie...and I hate to start this again...

But I have to ask...

Can you PLEASE SHOW ME ONE SINGLE PIECE OF PHYSICAL EVIDENCE? Just one?

All I ask is that it is REAL, predictable, provable, anything that "science" would associate as real evidence.

Just one PHYSICAL piece.

Am I the only human alive who hasn't seen the evidence of the supernatural? I really think I am going to start seeking out the occult...I just want to see something supernatural, good or bad. Just once. And I will suddenly have to stop in my tracks and ask "Wow, what was THAT?"

I've seen majic tricks on stage...all I did was look for the mirror/wires/etc. and I couldn't see a thing. VERY IMPRESSIVE...but surely we don't think it was a miracle, do we?

What is the PHYSCIAL EVIDENCE. PLEASE TELL ME.

The bible is a book...to believe it, to take it as the word as you do, that takes faith! You have faith, and believe the book inspired by a diety.

But you have to show me the physical evidence.

That's the difference. In science, we can predict what will happen, perform the experiment, and observe. Maybe we are right, maybe we are wrong. If we are right, and it happens repeatedly, over and over, we say that we think we understand that. If we are wrong, and it doesn't go as we think, than we say we were wrong...and modify the theory, and try again. But there is ALWAYS proof, evidence, reproducibility.

If you can show me proof, that can be supported, predicted, and shown to be repeatable.

If Elijah came back today, and we built the big altar to Baal, and it was not consumed...and then I watched Elijah's sacrifice, and the entire altar, be consumed by god, on demand, 5 times in a row, than I would say, hey, you have something there. It might be god, or it might be one heck of a neat lighting inducer...I'd investigate and determine which. See, that would be proof.

Or if I could see the dead rise off the table...and I could make certian the person was dead...for 3 days....and not be out in the bush were it is possible I just can't detect a heartbeat or other life functions. Let's say if I speared his side and watched him bleed out, I'd be convinced of death. To see him rise again, and to levitate to the sky 40 days later, I would believe something is up...or the aliens were playing games with us. LOL

That is why, I think, we don't believe. You have a nice story...it sounds wonderful...I wish my 80 years here could determine my eternal soul...I really do. Heck, I wouldn't even have to change much in my life.

Actually, on that note, here's a little something for ya.

If I DID KNOW of the almighty, and I was so convinced in his power, I would become the most evangelical convert that history has ever seen. Kinda like I did now, but the other way. LOL

I mean, how can people know that the almight creator of the eternal universe is always watching, and that one day they will be pals with him, nad yet they sin?? You HAVE TO BE KIDDING ME!!!! Do you realize what you are saying? You are letting these miserable 80 years today, in this life, in any ways shape or form hold you back from being the closest possible to the almight creator?

Why is that? Why not have a crown so full of jewels as you walk those pearly golden streets, why don't you do anything and everything, in these meager 80 years on earth, so that you can be as close to him as possible?

See, I don't understand that either. It's like, folks believe what fits them. What is convienient for them. You know, I love jesus and all, but I have to have this BMW...while I drive by the homeless. You know, I have to have 2 or 3 houses, while I fly over the poverty stricken inner city. I have to have the 800,000 house in the burbs...when the homeless sleep in my new sub-zero cardboard box I tossed out.

Hmmmm, I don't understand that. In fact, that too me seems like proof that people just pick the parts that make them feel good.

What did jesus tell Zacheus? And what did he do? Surely zacheus will be walking with your lord in a high place. So why not give your all to jesus today?

I suspect I will get slammed as being instigating...LOL...I'm not. I'm dead serious. For those who take such a literal interpretation, why not lay down your riches, all of them, and walk with the lord? Why did my STBX seem to skip the parts of the bible that said wives, don't withhold nookie from your husband, lest he start to have to think about his needs being met elsewere?

I'll say my saying again....There's no people of faith when their aorta is rupturing, their heart is in arythmea, or their bowels are obstructed.

You know, I can only think of one man in modern times who has given up his riches to follow the lord. Given up millions and perhaps billions, a life of pure luxury, to follow his beliefs. Who can you think of? I can think of only one....Ossama Bin Laden. Can you think of others?
Why not? Why not you?

I'm not talking to any specific...I'm talking to all believers in general. Have you REALLY questioned your faith? Your committment? Your following of your lord? Or do you just kinda take and pick the parts that you think fill your needs for security, for happiness, for eternal life?

Those are kinda fighting words I think....but the best teachers in life teach by asking questions. Becuase they cause you to think. Spoon feeding is one thing, but to think and arrive upon the answer, that's a whole 'nother story.

Hi bp22,

I'll play with you. First, I can think of someone else who gave up everything to follow her beliefs:
Mother Theresa. And I can give you a rather lame proof for God, though you might reject it. Caveat, though--I stole the proof from another person!

Can we first define God? God, in the Judeo-Christian sense, means The One, the beginning and the end, Alpha and Omega. For this purpose, let's use a simple definition, and omit the dogma of Virgin birth, papal infallability, the Resurrection, etc, and keep it really, really basic. Can we agree that for believers,

1. "God" means "Creator of the Physical Universe."

Can we also agree on this next point?

2. Time passes, from the past, into the present, and on to the future.

Given that, can we agree on the next statement?:

3. The past was either finite or infinite in duration. That is, the amount of seconds, days, years, etc. before the present moment (day,month, year...) must have been either infinite or finite in number.

4. History has an end in the present. (The future is not measurable or definable as history.) So if the past was of infinite duration, an infinity came to its end. But this is a self-contradiction.

5. Therefore, the universe did not have an infinitely long past; but a past of finite length. Therefore, it had a beginning. The universe had a beginning at some point.

6. The universe was created. Out of nothing came something. Out of infinity came creation and the structure of the universe, time, the solar system, etc, etc.

7. Thus, if it was created, a creator of the universe, God, exists.


When I was a child, and my dad went on deep-sea fishing trips, I would cry each time the boat disappeared beyond/over the horizon. I couldn't conceive of the fact that he was there; that I just couldn't see him; that my vision was imperfect. I'd cry inconsolably. I'd think that he was never coming back (mind you, I was really young <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) In our sometimes horrible world, it is very easy to consider God in the same way I saw that boat. "I can't see it...therefore it's not there"

Just rantin'

jo

Is that any different than:

1. god, if he exists, can do anything.
2. have god make a rock so heavy he can't lift...
3. goto 2 (oh, he can't do something)


I'm not trying to "play", it is a serious question to those who so vehemently believe...why are they not doing everything possible to spread the word and take up his cross and follow him? Are they just lukewarm christians, to be spewed from his mouth?? (those are the verses, right?)

Anyways, I used to fight with myself about the lukewarm part...I didn't want to be lukewarm...I was a bit of a jesus freak in my younger days...LOL. Oh well, live and learn.

And regarding mother theresa, I was thinking her as well. But did she turn down a life of riches and luxury? And as a catholic, don't the born agains condemn her to burn in hell next to me? Was she truely saved? I'm not up on Mother Theresa, she was a wonderful woman for all humankind as far as I know. Indeed, perhaps one of the very most selfless people ever.