What would you do if the friend threw your little daughter across the room? Do you know what I would do? I would call the police and file assault charges.

That's what I feared you would say--tell our friends and let them decide if they want to press charges. I almost told the mom today on the phone then didn't. I don't know why I didn't--afraid, I guess, of consequences. Of hurting BH even more. I still feel guilty about the A and want to make it up to him somehow, but then I have to remind myself that in this case he's doing this damage to himself. BH insists that it was just a gentle shove and I'm blowing it out of proportion. Maybe BH should be the one to tell them so he can explain exactly what happened?

BH says he will never touch OC, but that he'll do whatever he must do to protect her. He felt he was protecting her in that case. He knows the risk he runs of losing OC to the OM for good if he ever hurts her. He forgets that people don't use fists to solve problems nowadays--they press charges!

I just wish BH would make everything easier by getting counseling, get on meds, and work through the MB program with me 100%. I know I'm the villain with my A, but I can't singlehandedly save our M. I'm growing more and more hopeless.

My concern is for the child that was hurt. Your H is a big boy, that child is 3 years old. If someone did that to your daughter, what would you do? Would it be ok for bystanders not to tell you? Would you accept that?

I really wish you would email Dr Harley. You are NOT the villain, wanthealing. You have made just compensation for your crime. That does not oblige you to cover up wrongdoing for your husband. Doing so makes you an accessory to the crime, so to speak.

You're right; I would NEVER allow someone to hurt my child and get away with it. I have a bad feeling our friends may no longer be our friends after this. I don't know that I could be friends after something like this if it happened to my child. I would, however, like for my BH to tell them himself. I think he owes it to them to be honest.

I will e-mail the Harleys again. Since BH won't seek help, I will (even if I have to clog up Dr. H's e-mail with my inquiries!). I've listened to some of the other shows dealing with abuse, and certainly Dr. H has no tolerance for it, but sometimes it seems like the marriage still has a chance if the abuse stops. In my case the abuse has stopped toward me (and BH has never hurt OC), but it may pop up unexpectedly somewhere else. I just don't want to misrepresnt the current context to Dr. H. We'll see what he says.

I don't want to be a "marriage at all costs"--does this describe me? Am I blind?

WH, the thing is that your H's abuse has not stopped at all. It is just directed in other areas. Most recently at a 3 year old. The scary thing is that your H does not seem to understand this is wrong. Do you see the problem with that?

Yes, I do see the problem. Until BH gets real mental help, plus anti-anxiety meds, I can't help him. And I can't force these things on him. I don't know if Plan B would apply in my case since the abuse isn't something I can measure regularly. He may not do something for months...then something sets him off and it's too late. Even if he were to get help, there's no certainty it would help since I thought we resolved the physical abuse long ago, but having a child brought something out in him that makes him want to fight for her--even fight little kids.

I see the problem; I just don't see the solution.

Thats why I think it would be a good idea to tell Dr Harley and get his perspective. You know he doesn't mind and he is already very concerned about you.

I know how Dr Harley felt when he said "I don't want to be a troublemaker." My feeling, though, is that it would cause more trouble if you just allowed your H to sweep this under the rug. This is very alarming.

the problem of your h's behavoir in your situation is down the road. you said he has gotten into fist fights with his best friend your brother.

so here's a man who is willing to try and knock out his best friend's and BIL's teeth

what happens when in another year or two oc has an insecure period and doesn't want to go for visitation? there's crying and clinging and begging please i don't want to go.

oc is obviously hurting so does your h protect the oc by beating up om or maybe just take it out on someone else? you? another child?

your h is supposed to be an adult. tonight at my granddaughters soccer practice (12 yo's). two girls playing around and one gets mad and punches the other in the back. as the coach (according to your h's way of thinking) i should have gone up to the girl who hit the other and given her a sock in the arm to knock her across the park.

i agree that you need to set the boundaries with him right now. if this EVER happpens again YOU will call the police. also it is MANDATORY for him to get anger management help.

wanthealing, I think you definitely need to read Dr. Harley's pages here about an abusive spouse and anger. I posted links on a thread recently about this; I will see if I can dig them up.

Your husband has a serious anger problem. I encourage you to look into what can be done about it, and what you can do to see to it that he gets help. I don't know if he needs drugs or not, but he needs to do something about the anger.

I agree with the other posters who say this is extremely alarming.

wanthealing, Dr. Harley told my wife that our marriage could not recover/improve/get to where we wanted it until I solved my anger problem once and for all. It's one of really very few cases where I've seen someone post to Dr. Harley and his answer was essentially "it's not in your hands; it's up to your spouse" and he offered her no advice (of course he knew I was reading).

Getting into anger management was one of the best decisions I have ever made. I had to learn how to not become angry at my wife, not become angry with our children, and not become angry at work. I had to learn how to stay calm NO MATTER WHAT, even in the face of extreme provocation. When it comes to children, I have six small children, and I promise you that there are times when dealing with them is extremely frustrating and anxiety-inducing. Just a couple of weeks ago we went to the store, a little later in the day when the kids were tired, and they were bouncing off the walls. After shopping around for an HOUR or so I suddenly realized how amazingly calm I was, never raising my voice, never really feeling excited, slowly and methodically corralling each child and enabling my wife to shop (and protecting other customers in the store! not to mention my kids from each other!) and I thought "I can't believe this. I never could have done this six months ago. I would have been a basket case."

Prisca learning not to tolerate angry outbursts from me is one of the best things that has ever happened to me. It forced me to get help, and I am thrilled with the results.

Your husband's anger has escalated to the level of physical violence. With a child. With a child who is not even his to discipline! wanthealing, angry outbursts are insanity. There is literally no way to predict what your husband might do during an angry outburst. If that sounds frightening, that's because it is frightening.

Please don't feel that you can leave this problem in your marriage unsolved. Please talk to Dr. Harley about this one as well. I listened to your previous call, and I didn't pick up on any indications at the time that your husband had an anger problem, even though Dr. Harley did say it sounded like something unusual was going on with him. Now after hearing this, like other posters, I am alarmed. This problem has got to be brought up and dealt with or it is only going to get worse.

Please listen to MelodyLane, okay? Talk to Dr. Harley and Joyce again and bring this up.

wanthealing, in addition to being a great marriage therapist, Dr. Harley is also a great expert on anger. I don't know if you listen to the radio show regularly or not, but Dr. Harley talks about anger very, very frequently on the show. There's lots of information about effective versus ineffective therapies for anger, completely eliminating angry outbursts, Dr. Harley's own history with anger (did you know that he once blew up at a car he was working on and attacked it with a sledgehammer? )

wanthealing, here's some links. Have you ever gone through all the articles on this site? They are often very revealing even if the titles don't sound like they are about your specific situation. It helps to see Dr. Harley's concepts brought to bear on a lot of radically different situations. Even couples who come to his seminar who haven't had an affair receive a copy of "Surviving an Affair" with a note that "Dr. Harley would like for you to read this" because there are so many helpful concepts in there for all couples. In the same way articles about religious differences are helpful even for those who aren't religious, articles about control, dishonesty, etc., are helpful even for those who don't perceive a problem with any of that in their marriage.

Anyway, that was a tangent. I encourage you to read the whole site. But in the meantime, I strongly urge you to read these parts:

Angry Ourbusts

On this section, there are 2 pages about angry outbursts, 3 pages about domestic violence, and 6 pages about abusive marriage, and 2 pages about controlling husbands. I strongly encourage you to read all of these, even if you don't feel like the titles deal with a problem you guys have:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5505_qa.html

Oh good. I just now saw this. So maybe my previous post urging you to email Dr. Harley wasn't appropriate.


Well, yes! Dr. Harley has helped a number of people overcome problems with anger.


The thing about anger, is that it is a habit that is reinforced each time you engage in it. Each angry outburst (and a lot of other behavior, really) is a rehearsal for another angry outburst, making the next one much much easier to get into, much more natural, much more likely.

I never had angry outbursts against Prisca when we were dating. She never even saw an angry outburst on my part until we were just about to get married. But I was busy rehearsing my anger in other ways.

From what I've seen, angry outbursts on my part make withdrawals in Prisca's love bank even when they are not directed at her. Especially if they are directed at our children. (At one point last year, I thought Prisca was being unfair because she was listing AOs that were not directed at her! I never mentioned it, though, thankfully, because about that time I started listening to the radio show and reading Dr. Harley's AO chapter carefully and realized how anger is a habit that is reinforced no matter who it is directed against.)

Yes, I will be sending the Harleys an e-mail today explaining a bit more about our situation. In the brief segments it's hard to set a full context, but I'll try to be thorough in my e-mail so that he gets the info he needs to advise us.

I'll also read the articles. I read some of them a year ago, but to be honest I was more focused on working on changing me for the better because of my A rather than finding stuff to help BH. But thanks for the links, Markos!

Also, I really appreciate hearing about your story of recovery, Markos. That sounds exactly what I would love to see in my BH--a healthier ability to respond, not emotionally react, to problems. I feel a bit more hope after hearing of your changes, Markos.

Now to formulate an e-mail for Dr. H...

Markos, in the recent call she told Dr Harley that her husband used to hit her and continues to verbally abuse her. There is a history and pattern of anger problems including physical assault with her and others.

Wow, I totally missed that. See? This is what I get for listening to Marriage Builders at work! I should listen when I can pay attention!

Hey, at least you're tuned in!

Wanthealing,

I have been reading along with your thread but it got tedious in the middle so I jumped to the end. I believe I have also posted to you in your earlier posts.

As all of you know I firmly believe in the precepts of MB. I like the organization, I like the ideas, and I like the approach. But, I am also a scientist and I have lived on this planet for over 7 decades. I KNOW that nothing is flawless and I know that humans rarely are perfect. Which means the chances of you and/or your H following MB to perfection is remote at best, and the chances of the events and people in your life allowing you to follow MB perfectly are even more remote.

I think that no contact for life is a great idea. I think in your situation it is a very remote likelihood because of the OC.

But here is the problem, you KNOW you are still vulnerable to OM and I don't mean in a slight way. I mean you are still addicted hence your very smart move to avoid all contact. What you have not admitted to your H is that in comparison to OM your H is a failure and frankly not much of a man. I say that as a man. Further I would submit to you while you think your OM is cunning, you KNOW your H is a complete fool.

Why am I saying these things? One you need to admit them. Two, you need to tell your H the truth, he cannot measure up and never will until and unless...he gets a grip.

1. He has physically abused you.
2. He has mentally abused you.
3. He is NOT meeting your needs.
4. OM, not him, is providing for OC.

AND FINALLY, he hasn't realized that if you file for divorce he will NEVER see OC again. It has been determined legally that he has not legal right to see OC.

Now given this last statement you would think that you and your H would realize that if you want him to be part of OC's live you have to want to remain in your H's life. IF HE wants to see OC again in his life it is his job to provide a partner that with support, love, affection, etc and not abuse verbal or otherwise.

You chose OM for a reason and sadly those reasons have NOT gone away, and you KNOW it. That is why you are so adamant about NC as you should be.

The concept of NC for YOU, is not some pie in the sky, theoretical discussion about addicts are always addicts. Nope for you OM is still the better choice because your H has made him the better choice. Your H needs to know this, think about this and then develop a plan to become the husband you need.

If he won't...divorce him!!!!!!

How is that for blunt and to the point? You have not been honest with your H although you have brought him to this site. Let him read my message and hear the disdain I have for his stupidity. He should NOT be friends with OM, you should not be friends with OM. And until and unless he decides to change his mind you should definitely stay away from OM and probably your H as well.

Think about this carefully.

God Bless,

JL

JL, you hit on many of the points that Dr Harley made in his recent discussion with wanthealing. That her H is such a poor choice in comparison to the OM. Wanthealing explained to Dr Harley that she still has feelings for the OM. HOWEVER, she has told her husband this. He has told her to grow up.

Even if her husband did straighten up and fly right, continued contact between her and the OM will ALWAYS be verboten. She cannot be in contact with him - EVER - if there is any hope of recovering the marriage.

And that does not mean for 1 year or 10 years, but FOREVER. PERIOD. So it is not a remote possibility, but an absolute requirement if she wants to ever have a recovered marriage. Her husbands improvements will never change the fact that she will be eternally triggered by the OM. To think otherwise is to ignore the nature of addictions.

Is that inconvenient? You betcha. [not as incovenient as the alternative] But is it impossible? Of course not. And like Dr Harley said, you need to make that happen.

Mel,

I agree and disagree and that is mainly semantics. OC will grow up go to school be in events that he/she will want her parents to attend. Parents? That means Mom/H as well as OM. Is both of them attending a play, a game, graduation contact???? I don't think so. Since OM is now legally in OC's life, OM and Mom will cross paths but H should be there as well. There can be no Mom goes to the play, OM goes to the play and H stays home, that I totally agree with. Will OM and Mom need to talk about serious issues that can arise in OC's life? Yes, given that OM is in OC's life. Is that contact? Yes it is. Is it good? No it is not. Is there someway to buffer this so that there is no 1on1 time? Sure and those ways need to be explored.

WH:
H does need to get his head out and decide if he wants to be a good husband or not. He is NOT entitled to behave anyway he wants, if he wants to remain a husband. Her affair, the presence of OC does NOT entitle him to fail and be forgiven for that failure, "just because..."

God Bless,

JL