I got your back on this one, sweetpea:



Now stop it.

Marital:

Yup, I felt bad the rest of the day. Told FWH my plan to make it a fun, sexy outing to buy new fragrances, and he was less than enthusiastic.

He said: Oh, just go buy them already.

He wasn't annoyed, but didn't leap at the chance to reclaim these stupid massage oils either with a fun outing.

My gut tells me that he thinks my DJ was an overreaction. That I'm being too sensitive about a trigger: the oils.

Yes, he may feel that it was. The point is that you withdrew from his love bank with your outburst. It served no positive purpose.

I know how difficult triggers can be. But expressing them as an AO won't serve you.

But that isn't something to dwell on - learn from it and keep going forward with recovery.

Marital:

Spot on, as usual. Wondering if you would advise on the topic of a lie detector that NG suggested as part of my due diligence on FWH's affair.

Totally understand if you don't have time. You are ALL over these forums, and this isn't a make or break issue.

Tx,
SP

No prob - I've got free time at work right now and this keeps me from snacking out of the snack box.

The poly? I went back and pulled one of your posts that helped me arrive at my answer to your question:
My answer is skip the poly. You don't feel the need right now. That is your call.

Reserve the right to a poly in the future if you feel the need to then.

Marital:

Thanks for the affirmation of my gut feeling on the lie detector.

Glad I could help YOU for a change and staying out of the snack box!

One more question: So ArmyMama and I have been chatting a bit on her thread. She says FWH is lying about the contents of his chats with POSOW. He told me she did most of the talking, and they never discussed their spouses.

A) Can that be possible in affairland? B) Is it important to MAKE HIM be more specific about what they talked about?

My feeling? I have never felt comfortable with his vague recollections of their conversations. But now I don't know if that's something I NEED to address to vanquish it, or if KNOWING more details would be like more little nails being drilled into my head.

Thoughts?

Oh, yeah. I remember those days, when I agonized over what they talked about. It was crazy-making.

Sure, it's possible they didn't discuss spouses. Think about it: discussing their spouses would certainly put a bit of a damper on the romantic atmosphere, you know?

However, their spouses are the elephant in the living room. As hard as they tried to swim in their fog, neither spouse was far from their mind. So, what to do with these spouses? Why, paint them as neglectful/abusive/cold/etc, in order to justify the affair, of course. It wouldn't have been very romantic to say something like "I love my spouse, but I have bad boundaries so I'm having an affair with you."

Consider that your H was a pretty standard wayward who did all the standard wayward-speak ("My W doesn't like/love/understand/mean anything/pay attention to fill in the blank me" or "It's been years since we had fun/laughed/spent time together fill in the blank."

Consider that he said all of that. Can you accept that he was a typical wayward who was spouting whatever he thought the OW wanted to hear so she would give him the attention he wanted? Can you accept that he was using her? Because he was. It was all about HIM, then. Not even HER. Just HIM.

That's straight from my H's mouth He said he was ready to say whatever it took to keep OW's 'hits' coming. Addiction. Yuck. Nasty stuff.

Is it? What do YOU think?

TOTALLY made me laugh, Marital! My FWH also said he probably said pretty much anything that came to his mind to keep those "hits" coming, too.


I can accept typical. I LOVE thinking that he used her.


What do I think? What do I think? What do I think? ...

I think knowing the content would really hurt me. I think MAKING him reveal what he said would be detrimental at this point and useless. Because I do think it was all designed to keep the hits coming.

Really, the the ONLY time this really bugs me is when he fails to meet my requests to pay attention to me during vulnerable moments (recent funeral/late biz meeting).

I rarely think: What did he say to her?

I'm almost always saying to myself: Gosh darn it! I specifically asked him to call/text and he hasn't. But he certainly couldn't STOP himself from texting/calling her.

So, it's not really about the what was said.

It's that FWH is not meeting an emotional need, one that doesn't come up very often.

I guess I'll try saying: Hey, FWH. Calling or texting me today is the NO. 1 EMOTIONAL NEED of mine today. Please, for our marriage and my sanity, make some deposits.

If he doesn't understand that, we'll have some more serious work to do.

Thanks again, Marital!

"Really, the the ONLY time this really bugs me is when he fails to meet my requests to pay attention to me during vulnerable moments (recent funeral/late biz meeting)."

Exactly why it bothers you everything does i am sure! when you are sensitive.

" guess I'll try saying: Hey, FWH. Calling or texting me today is the NO. 1 EMOTIONAL NEED of mine today. Please, for our marriage and my sanity, make some deposits."

thats exactly what i said, i would love it if you texted me more and not just about the weather... HA

do you really want to know the nitty gritty? an A is bad already, how much worse could it be.

Sounds like a good approach, sweetpea. And don't beat yourself up too badly about the episode over dinner. It's natural that you're going to have triggers, and it simply isn't possible to make the BEST response every time. Keep trying, of course, but don't beat yourself up when you slip.

WSs don't always understand how important it is to the BS to get all the reassurance they need. Somehow you need to make your WH
understand how important it is that he call when he's going to be late or when you're apart. It creates way too much anxiety for the BS is the WS doesn't check in.

Best of luck!

SweetPea,

I finally had some time to read your thread. All I can say is, we are SOOOOOOOO in the same place right now!

I'm glad I read through everything here as I've been struggling with all the same issues: my anti-versaries are hitting hard these next few weeks: I discovered the affair Oct. 8th - and H left on the 15th. I'm not looking forward to those days AT ALL.

In December I went to a funeral for my step-grandfather and had to go alone. H was home with the kids and I was only away for 2 days - one night, basically. That was hard though. H did a good job of keeping in touch though. HOWEVER.... I have struggled a lot with the thoughts of "all he did" for HER that he "never did for me"!

I am proud that I have never lashed out at him - not once - about the A or OW. Although, a dead silence is in the room when we are watching tv or a movie and infidelity comes up. I don't think it's terrible that you did it at dinner. You have feelings, of course! I have a way of getting really quiet and zoned out when I trigger. I don't have to say a word but I know my H knows at that moment. Heck, eerily, he could tell by email the other day with me trying to be slick about it that I was feeling off!

As for the details of your H's convos with OW, I would tend to say you don't need to hear all of that. You've read some of my posts, so you know I've been going through the same sort of thoughts: I didn't ask stuff previously that are now nagging at me... However, I think specific conversation stuff would just drive you a little crazy. The conversations I read via email I will NEVER get out of my mind. NEVER. Of course, if you truly need to revisit that to heal then you just do. YOu said though that you know it will hurt you. Why torture yourself when it was just a bunch of fog babble between the two fo them anyway? It wasn't REAL!

Anyway...just jotting down some of my thoughts.

Thank you to everyone who has posted to SweetPea because you have inadvertently helped me as well!!! I'm somewhat "new" around here. Not new-new because I was on here last year, but I had stopped posting months ago and recently began again. Long story, lol. But let me add...no drama...I wasn't upset or avoiding advice... just working recovery and busy in other ways.

Sweetpea,

Here's something to think about regarding H being away and not texting as often as you would have liked. Instead of couching it in terms of EPs, how about talking about it in terms of affection. Have you worked on the affection chapter in HNHN? It was the first one the MB coach had H and I do.

And the scenario would be something like, "I would really like it if you would text me XX times during the period of X to X." An alternative would be, "I would really like it if you would text me at XXX o'clock and YYY o'clock." H can agree or disagree. Your H could come back with "I don't think I can text at YYY o'clock because I will be in a meeting". These statements/tasks are specific and measurable and could be part of the overall affection plan. Our coach even suggested that H check off his affection list every day. I made up a spreadsheet of things H agreed to do and left it on the computer desktop. He can refer to it any time he likes. And when we do our UA planning on Mondays, we take a look at whether he did everything on the list.

It feels very clinical to both of us and the clinical feel to me does not deposit very many LB units. However, it gets us both in the habit of doing those affectionate things that we like. I have a lot less on my list than H does, but that seems to be the nature of this EN. And of course, there are times when we surprise each other with something affectionate. These deposit the most LB units.

What do you think?

Oh, and Sweetpea, I agree about the poly. It sounds as if you don't need it. And about H conversations with OW, could it be what you might be looking for is the affirmation that your H would be open and honest with you IF you wanted to know, not the nitty-gritty details of the conversations? I really got side-tracked with my comments on my thread. Basically, I ended up wanting all kinds of details. I am a detail person and my H lied for a long, long time. But what I really wanted to know was that he was truthful.

AM

ArmyMama:

Thanks so much for the post! I LOVE the idea of being very specific, and, yes, even one slim little text would do it for me, and I know he would be able to meet that request and probably more.

He's super affectionate physically: always kissing and hugging, and I wouldn't trade those for the world. But he does have to up his game when I ask him to.

Yes, I would LOVE for it to be spontaneous, but I'll take "reassurance" over spontaneous at this point!

RE your thoughts on FWH's convos with POSOW. I honestly believe he THINKS he's being open and honest about "not being able to remember much about" their talks. But part of me also thinks he's willfully not remembering those conversations so that he doesn't have to relive them AND so that they don't harm me.

Again, I've thought about this more, and what usually triggers my outrage over his calls and texts is NOT the content but the sheer volume of them. And this usually only arises when I've specifically asked him to text or call, and he doesn't.

So, I really need to impress upon him about this being a BIG DEAL need when I ask for it. And being specific will really work for him, I'm sure.

LOL!!! Army: I'm chuckling that you use an excel spreadsheet for affectionate acts. It's a BIG JOKE in our house how I created an excel spreadsheet to help our boys monitor how often they took the dog out when she was a puppy and being potty trained. It was routinely ignored!!! So I'm glad your FWH is using it as a tool to help him.

And, lastly: I totally agree on the lie detector. Thanks for your perspective.

Have a great Friday!

Friends:

FWH and I are taking a weeklong vacation with friends to wine country in Northern California. Can not wait!

However, Monday is the ANTI-versary of my FWH calling skankho after their initial September hookup (Puke! Puke! Puke! Puke!) to start up his long-distance affair. (Puke! Puke! Puke! Puke!)

I KNOW he won't even think about it on Monday. He's "over it." Hates thinking about any of it.

Me? These ANTIs drag me down and burst my recovery bubble. I end up feeling that FWH SHOULD SHOW A LOT more remorse. Yes, he IS remorseful when I get triggered and down about his affair. But he never brings up any feelings of sorrow, pain or shame unless I'm in a bad spot.

Does this mean he hasn't given me enough "just compensation"? Or is he not meeting my need to be more in tune with my emotions, something he readily admits he doesn't meet very well?

Hmmmmmmmmm.

OK, SP, time for me to hug you back!!!

((((((((((((Sweet Pea)))))))))))))))))

I know EXACTLY how you feel...exactly! In fact, I just posted on another thread about this: that I wished my H would express his remorse more, wondering if he REALLY feels badly enough or if he still justifies what he did....

Sunday is a big Dday for me, followed by the whole next week. I'll be praying for you as well as myself!

(Jealous on the wine country trip! I LOVE NC!)

Here's the thing I am trying to remind myself right now: If I am supposed to love my H for who he is, I have to accept that he is not going to say and do things exactly as I want him to do, but as the person he is. He has a different personality. His "love language" is different than mine.

My H is the same way - over it - and while he keeps telling me he knows I can't just get over it - I am sure he wishes I would.

I don't know the exact answer. If you find one, let me know! I just keep plodding along, making sure I'm telling my H what I need. Do I wish for that grand guesture? Of course! But right now I am focusing on all the little things he is doing right. I go back and forth with needing the grand guesture from him. Sometimes I think if I just work on myself enough, H will realize what he has and want to give me the moon. Other times I think it's ridiculous that I feel I *need* the grand guesture I don't feel I'm getting... I get mad that H doesn't supply it. THen I get mad at myself for not accepting the every day rather than looking for pie in the sky....

It's frustrating!

THis is the thread I'm talking about:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2549990#Post2549990

My post is at the end (currently). But THIS is the kind of remorse I want to KNOW my H has... and while he might, I sure don't hear it like this. Would like to.

Sunny!

Sunday, I will be thinking of you (but sorry, not posting!).

You know, why isn't a grand gesture in order? Can't you tell him that you need him to do SOMETHING?????

What is it that you'd like?

Me? I have told my FWH that what i would REALLY, REALLY like is for him to post to some Betrayed Spouse, who is REALLY hurting, and tell them that it can get better and how he redeemed himself. He says he will do it, but that he needs some time.

Oh, and a new expensive wedding band! KIDDING!!!

Sunny, do come here on Sunday for moral support. Remember: No love busting or outbursts. Just calmly tell him if you're bumming out and tell him what you need: hugs? kisses? love notes?

Cheers,
Sweetpea

He can't read your mind. Let him know this day causes triggers for you and you'd love his help building new memories together of happier times.

Just Compensation is changing his actions to prevent another affair, avoiding doing things that make you miserable, and building a romantic relationship with you.

Is there anything he is doing -- or isn't doing -- that might allow him to carry on another affair?

Is he doing anything to make you miserable right now?

Is he doing the right things to build a romantic relationship with you?

A man typically does need to show a great deal of remorse at the start of recovery if the recovery is to be successful. (Dr. Harley has a different standard for women, saying he's often guided recoveries where the woman may never express remorse for her affair.) If he's expressed such remorse, though, it's unfair to demand it further of him.

My single most important question for you is this:

Are you spending at least fifteen hours a week alone with your husband meeting the needs of affection, intimate conversation, sexual fulfillment, and recreational companionship?

Usually, if you are spending at least that much time together, the feelings you express (wanting/demanding more remorse from your spouse) subside over time....

SweetPea, you made me laugh! One of the things I've been asking for is a new wedding ring!

Now - my reasons make a long story - don't want to hijack your thread further. Just sayin. lol

You're right though - as is Door - you have to ask for what you want. My thing is, what if you ask and you don't get?! What then? It's somewhat rhetorical - for both of us.

UA time definitely helps!

No. His EPs are solid.

Nope. He's really a great husband. Very loving and attentive. (Am starting to feel, well, childish)

Yes. Though I do wish he'd ask me about how I'm feeling more (an early need after DDay, but not it's just to let me know he's thinking about ME! And flowers every once in awhile would be really nice!


He did, and worked really hard in therapy.


We do get enough UA time. I guess most of my whining is about these ANTIversaries. I'm still a bit mired in the significance of them; FWH is not. Wishes they never existed.

But wishing does not make it so.

Maybe my plan on Monday should be: Hey, FWH. Last year on this day, you picked up your phone and called skankho, to reignite your affair. I don't want to see your phone at all today. Oh, and checking in on my emotions throughout today would put a lot of deposits in my love bank.

How about that?