In the studies and years of experience with Dr. Harley's work what is the percentile of men who have moved from having many affairs in their marriage to becoming monogamous? Married 23 years, children college age,separated 8 months,he is currently having affair with subordinate,says he is looking for new job, I am hanging on to plan b and he keeps pushing for plan c He says he wants our marriage but needs the new job first. After getting new job , he says he will do Dr. Harleys plan for recovery. Should I even entertain getting back with him-we can get divorced after 1 year apart. I want to believe in Dr. Harleys marriage building steps and that they will make our marriage work. But there is that inner voice that says are you crazy? How many affairs has your husband had? He will never change. Can a person change their whole prediposition? What is the likelihood? What has Marriage Builders seen? Do I gamble another 2 years of my life on this?

We have several serial cheaters here who have transformed their marriages, but it takes a radical 180 change in lifestyle. And a radical, nuclear exposure.

In your case, I would not even consider it until he gets a new job and gives up all overnight travel and makes his life so transparent that it would be impossible to cheat. One suggestion would be to work TOGETHER all day.

But the fact that he is is "currently having an affair with a subordinate" tells me he is not even remotely serious.

Have you exposed his affairs wide and far?


Yes, he wants your marriage, but also wants his affair. He is hoping he can get away with keeping BOTH, which is why he wants Plan C. Your husband is not serious in the least and should not even be considered.

If I were you, I would stay in Plan B, expose the affair wide and far and FILE FOR DIVORCE. You win either way with that plan. If he does make a dramatic, 180 degree change, you can consider dropping the divorce. And if he doesn't change, you will be divorced. You win either way.

Your H is just saying this in order to persuade you to break Plan B and speak to him. He is not interested in doing the things to recover his marriage. Or he would be DOING the things necessary to recover your marriage.

I would shut the door tighter and file for divorce. There is nothing here to save.

I understand your your response because I am thinking along your terms. Thanks for the reinforcement. One question is why would he linger in Plan C? To have his cake and eat it too? I need to figure out a plan B. That really safeguards me from him.

I would simply tell him that you cannot have anything more to do with him if he is still in contact with his OW. If he wants to save the marriage he is going to have to grow up and accept the responsibility of the marriage.......
Then I would simply say please do not contact me if you can't give our marriage your only attention, go see a lawyer and start the ball rolling show him you are serious and then go NO CONTACT yourself with your WH.............
Unless he meets your terms he will never change and you will never be happy......
jessi

Absolutely. Almost EVERY WS tries to remain in Plan C because they want both.


Exactly. And we can help you with this. Go to the notable posts section and look up the thread titled "How to Plan B correctly."

Do you have Surviving an Affair? There is a plan B letter in there that should be sent. The plan B letter is very important so I would suggest posting it here and letting us help you with it. It will be the last thing your WS sees before you go dark so it is important to be clear, meaningful and concise. We will be glad to help you with it.

radical, nuclear exposure....your comment on the topic of exposing his affairs. I have only exposed this last affair to our children and our friends which I did once he moved out. Should I tell them about all of the other affairs? If so, why?

Absolutely. I would tell everyone. I would most especially expose the affair to his company and to the OW's family. Expose to all your parents and ask them to speak to him. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so exposing them is ruinous. It is also the best way to make a wayward to see the error of his ways. The more people who know, the more people to support you and the more people to hold him accountable.

Exposure is the most potent weapon against affairs. BAR NONE.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2486981#Post2486981

I would send a formal letter to the Director of Human Resources, a key VP and both your H and the OW's supervisors. [cc all of them so none are tempted to throw the letter away]



Then send a private message to the OW's family and friends on facebook. Copy and paste all her contacts into a WORD doc and prioritize them based on family relationship, marital status, and send them all a PM that goes something like this:

Dear family and friend of Skankyhola,

I am writing you this message to enlist your help in persuading Skanky to end her affair with my husband, Joe WS. Joe and I have been married for 27 years and have 2 very heartbroken children. Joe has left home to pursue his affair with skanky. This affair has been ongoing since XX-2010 and started in the workplace.

I am asking that you use your influence to persuade her to leave my husband alone. My husband has said that he wants to work on the marriage but we need your help in persuading her to leave him alone.

I would happy to provide the evidence to anyone who asks. Please have her parents call me at XXX-XXX-XXXX so I can speak to them personally.

Thank you for any support you can provide,

Mrs Knowing

I will re-do my exposure. I did not touch on some of those approaches.

Last year, after reading Mr. Harleys books
I did expose the affair to family and my children (told and showed them the plan b letter) and meet with his boss just before my h moved out. Being a small company his boss just basically told them to stop. I went ahead into plan B and my h said he wanted to work the marriage out and that the affair is over.(We know that is not true as long as they work with one another)

Currently, my h said he is trying to get another job. He says it is tough out there to get a new job.......he wants to support his kids in college..... etc.Blah Blah Blah

He has read Dr. Harleys books and says he is in the fog. And he knows he will be there until he gets a new job. And he knows this means daily pain for me until he has no contact with the OW at all. Being in the fog, he still engages in not disclosing everything and independent behavior and all the other fog related behaviors.

I tell him Plan B until he gets a new job. He pushes plan c as I have said. I am writing today I guess to get the confirmation that I just need to start a divorce and move in that direction. Keep moving and if the 180 turnaround comes out of him then we can look to recovery. As you said. Thanks.

Dr. Harley talks about the fog for the wayward, what state does he ever use for the betrayed? I feel like I am in a state called the DARK. It is like a spell?

knowing, what is your understanding of Plan B? It sounds like you still speak to him so I am not sure what you mean. Did you send him a plan B letter? Does he KNOW what Plan B means?

Also, who is this OW and have you exposed to her family members?

And what is your understanding of Plan C? What does he push exactly? What does he want?

Knowing,

I have lots of empathy for you. I'm in much the same place as you: long-term marriage, adult children, and a husband who has had multiple affairs. Hope you have a good support system and can stay strong in plan B. Do what you need to make a good life for yourself, independent of your former life with WH.

A WH who has betrayed you multiple times should not be trusted, no matter what he says. He may even believe his words himself, but until he has actually established NC with his AP, there's no reason to even listen to his words.

Easier said than done some days, I know. Work on healing yourself from your WH's betrayal. If he ever demonstrates his ability to commit to a monogamous marriage with you, you can decide if you want to take the risk of trying to rebuild.

Dear knowing:

You might want to take a look at my thread, as I think it's a little unique.

My husband (CGIR) began having affairs after we were married for less than two years and finished his last affair in 2010.

I think we are a unique in that I didn't get the truth about these affairs until a year ago last week. My period of "trickle truth" didn't last for weeks or months; it spanned our entire married relationship.

I also think we are unique in that we did not start with a foundation of an intimate relationship that we could then return to after the affairs. CGIR had a private life for just about thirty years and I had a "fantasy" life (fantasy meaning unrealistic, or conjured, not "dreams come true") for that same time period. It turned out that I did not know him at all, and my thoughts and feelings never mattered enough to him to get to know who I was.

We're trying, and he's working hard. He's trying to "get it right" and does a lot for me.

Schoolbus seems to think there is real change. She spent a lot of time posting to him and me when we first started posting here.

Truthfully, though, "if I knew then what I know now," I don't think I would have stayed. Most days it still feels too hard.

It's really hard to live without safety or trust.

But, if you read my thread, you can see what Schoolbus said about hypotheticals.

Good luck.

BV

knowing,

(waves to bv)


I am in a marriage that has experienced multiple affairs. Let's count:

He has had:
Two one-night stands
Left me once for three months for an emotional affair he had (and the OW in this case never even gave him the time of day LOL)
One EA
One PA that lasted about 3 months or so (the most recent one)

I have had:
One ONS
One EA


So.


Can a marriage be repaired after all of that???????





Yep.


In your case, and in your situation, what you are asking is, "Can a person really change?"

and

"Can two people repair a relationship after so much damage?"


Two different questions there.

I will answer the second question first: Yes. Two people can repair a relationship after so much damage. The trick is that both people have to recognize their own contributions to the damage, be willing to openly admit their faults, be willing to CHANGE, and to actively participate in changing - with an open interactive conversation regarding those changes taking place as an ongoing part of the package. There has to be a plan, the two have to know where they are taking the relationship, and they have to understand that this will not happen overnight. Patience, mutual respect, and lots of conversation are important. Basically, follow the MB plan, and you can hardly go wrong.


The second question....Can people really change?


Of course. Well, there's an old joke:

Q: How many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb?
A: It doesn't matter - the light bulb has to really WANT to change.


Anyway, in life, we change every single day. It happens so slowly that we don't really notice it. Consider your own self at age 14. Then at age 18. Then age 22. Keep going, skipping 4 years each time, until you get to your age today. Have you changed?

Do you see fundamental changes in yourself? Of course you do. You have changed what you value, what you thought you needed in your life, core ideals in some cases, even perhaps changed your opinion on quite controversial topics that you thought you would never change.

People undergo radical change all the time. People begin committing crimes late in life, who might never have done so before, and shock their families and friends when they are arrested. On the other hand, hardened alcoholics stop drinking and go sober and never drink again - completely changed - and also shock their friends and families.

So when we talk of change, we think "he will never change". The truth is, "he is always changing", perhaps just not changing the things we want him to change



Work Plan B. Go very very very dark. Let him suffer the consequences of his behavior. If he has any chance of saving himself, Plan B will secure your love for him while he pulls his head out of his rear end.

SB

How many affairs has your WH had?

Can anyone lead me to a thread that covers the basics of how to approach a divorce? How to find the right attorney? And the best process (ie at fault,mediation,collaborative) in order to get the best outcome, money wise? Lots of alimony! Not giving it all to an attorney either. Websites? Does Dr. Harley have anything on this? And how to tell the children?

Look at the Divorce/Divorcing Forum

SB

Thanks for the input. I will go dark on Plan B as you say. And I will look at attorneys. I just asked questions on that.

WS must come to the table with a new job (away from OP who he will never contact again), go through withdrawal, be totally transparent. Wow! And then be fully committed to working the MB plan with me.

I guess the WOW! comes into play because I am looking at WS thinking he can not even tell the truth nevertheless accomplish the above. A true 180 change.

When asked how many affairs I am ashamed to answer because there is a part in me that feels responsible for them. Yes I know it was his choice in every situation but I stayed with him after each. Always hoping things would get better: obviously never having the right tools. I feel deep down "once a fool always a fool" to have ever believed him. That scares me even now about considering a future with him. "Fear"

SB I think it was you who wrote on a thread about exposing the A and how the anger and a blow up by the WS is normal. I would love to reread it but can not find it again. Do you recall this thread?

The anger and blow up after exposure are common. Just expect it.

I did write recently about that...can't remember where! lol

I will look for it

My H has had numerous affairs. You can change your marriage.

You do own some of the blame for the state of the marriage that set the stage for the affairs. The choice to have affairs belongs to your husband, and is 100% his fault. While your marriage might have needed work, the solution did not include finding another person and having sex with her. That just did not help the marriage, did it? NO. It made matters worse, not better.

It made you believe you needed to change, and you did things to work on the marriage - and you felt guilty. That guilt is misplaced. You did nothing wrong, your husband did. Guilt is what you should feel when you do something wrong. You did not have an affair!

In the past, when your husband had an affair, you probably worked very hard on yourself, trying to fix what you thought was "wrong". You did things, and he just continued on. At first, he acted sorry, did a few things to "make up", and then after awhile things laxed back into the way they were before the affair.

That's the mistake. The situation prior to the affair is not really addressed - so the marriage does not get changed! What ends up happening is that another affair occurs, because nothing gets solved. The affair might end, but the situation that led up to it remains.

Marriage Builders concepts addresses this issue. Use the concepts here, and you actually can SOLVE the problems that lead to the affairs.

Read the concepts. Use them.