Penni, I had that kind of thing for 25 years. It sucked. And his bad behavior escalated. He never actually hit me, but he hit the kids a couple of times. And then my husband had the affair.

If Dr. Harley suggested that you separate, I think you need to consider following his advice. You are still in the "honeymoon" phase of your marriage. It will only get worse. Twenty-five years from now, you don't want to be like me-divorced with a bunch of kids who never see their father because he never bothered to have a relationship with them.

Penni, is your H familiar with MB concepts? He sounds like a bully, and I say that because my H used to be a bully. He didn't like conflict - he wanted everything to flow smoothly (his way) so that everyone was happy and there was no hassle. If conflict appeared inevitable, he would resort to bullying tactics to get the outcome he desired. That is unrealistic and will create massive resentment for you. We had to work on his bullying to get 'his' way in our marriage, and that involved a lot of work with the POJA. It sounds like your H is similar. How are you doing with the POJA?

MB, that sounds very familiar. He has a really hard time dealing with conflict and he likes to shut it down as quickly as possible. POJA is very difficult with him if it is around something he has strong feelings about. He moves to being defensive instantly and once he has decided on a course of action (even if I don't agree with it), finds it very difficult to deviate.

He is somewhat familiar with MB concepts. I have gotten him to read the basic concepts and he even filled out the questionnaires a long time ago. I even got him to speak to Steve once more recently, and he said that Steve said a lot of things that made sense, but refused to talk to him again because he thinks therapy is for people with serious problems (and i am the one with the problem). In general, he thinks that MB is too "cookie cutter" to work and that it requires him to give up part of himself.

MB, what got your husband to see the problem in his approach and change?

Oh. Good. Grief.

Penni, I went back and read a lot of your old posts. Since you got married, your husband has engaged in EAs. He lies and puts his friends and his hobby before his marriage. He hid his spending from you. He told you he wanted a divorce and started moving into the basement until you gave in to his demands. He categorically refuses to attempt POJA and calls you "controlling" when you ask him to end his IBs. Now he's gaslighting??

Penni, the issue is not that your husband doesn't "see" but that he doesn't CARE. He doesn't have a problem with his approach, YOU DO. He doesn't care. You have already told him.

Since you are here posting tonight, I take it he didn't take you out to punish you?

I went over the POJA with him. He didn't like the idea. Many don't, initially. There are a lot of people who don't like the idea of losing some perceived 'control' over things. It wasn't easy to get the POJA going, I'm not going to lie to you. But I remained consistent that the POJA was another tool to protect our marriage.

I like to control things. My H does, too. Two controlling individuals creates an interesting dynamic for a married couple.

Approach it as a team. I think one of the hardest things for my H to learn was that I wasn't the Marriage Police - I had the utmost protection of our marriage in mind. And he had to learn that he wasn't going to be 'penalized' if he 'got it wrong'.

Determine your rules of engagement. What is the best way you can initially address something? If something bothers you and you are starting to butt heads, you may want to consider backing off and emailing your concerns to each other or writing them down for the other spouse to read. That can help to take some of the moment's emotion out of play. That works really well for us when we're at an impasse. It gives us a chance to back off and look at all sides of the issue.

Now? We still have times when we say "Let's wait on discussing this." So much of it depends on both parties committing to having their marriage foremost in their mind. Both parties have to let go of their control first.

He is working late, the plan was for a late dinner, I will know in about 20 minutes if he is still into going. Look, I married him for a reason, he is funny and charming and can be really sweet and thoughtful, and he is really into family. He does his share around the house, he works hard, he's attractive, and SF is great. There are many things worth saving here. I don't feel like I am in an awful situation (it probably sounds like it because this is not a place where people post how great everything there hubby did that day was), I just want to make my current situation better.

MB, thanks for your post. Yes, I think my previous behavior of nonstop DJs and SDs has made my H scared of trying POJA. I have changed a lot, but I am not sure he trusts it yet. He always used to say that I acted like I knew everything and I knew exactly what we needed - I did do that. I am/was controlling. I think it is hard for him to imagine a situation where we could negotiate in a way that makes us both happy. Maybe i am just being impatient.

I have done really good at backing off before things get emotional now (we used to have awful fights) but we don't always get to a resolution. The conversation we had today would have previously ended in some nasty words - this time no harsh words were said, no voices were raised, we just didn't agree. It may not sound like a good situation to outsiders, but for me, it's progress.

That is very scary. Have you considered that maybe outsiders are immensely more objective than you are? Why do you believe that one of the top marriage experts in the US, Dr Bill Harley, told you to separate? Why do you think many of the posters on this board have told you the same thing?

It is because all of those good things you cite do not compensate for your husband's extremely uncaring, mean, thoughtless behavior. He not only routinely gaslights you, but he refuses to meet your needs. There is nothing sweet about that. That is mean.

But you are telling us that this is "progress." Do you understand how you sound to outsiders? When I read your post to my husband about your H's reaction to your request for attention, his mouth dropped. I did not tell him anything beforehand. He had never heard of you. But he was even shocked at how callous and cruel your husband is.

For you to call this "progress" makes me think you have stockholm syndrome.

Your H doesn't use POJA because he is a renter and he is basically wayward. From what I can remember you have been workin on Plan A (eliminating lovebusters and meeting his needs better with little expectation for him to meet your needs) for a LONG time and he is still not onboard.

How long do you plan to Plan A him for?

Wow. Just wow.

We're having an extremely busy holiday season, too. A few days ago, I told Markos in tears "I'm feeling very emotional and needy right now." He responded by showering me with affection and attention. He let me know that he adored my emotions, and my needing him.

Agreeing with Melody and her husband -- your husband doesn't care about you at all. Dr. Harley advised you to separate? Why are you still with this man, then?

I waited 15 years for our lives to become "normal" so that we could increase our intimacy. There was ALWAYS something going on. Always some crisis. Finishing college, busy season at work, too hot, too cold, too pregnant, just had a baby, someone's sick, too tired/anemia, etc.
Some people are better at coming up with excuses to NOT do something than to do it, regardless of the energy it would take (or the rewards) to change their behavior.

Objectively, looking back, I'm embarrassed of what I tolerated. But I didn't gain that objectivity until after the relationship ended. I wish someone would have helped me see what I was missing - she never had any plans to try and meet my needs.

opt

Opt - The difference is you realized the mistake and worked hard with your xWW to fix the problems. That makes you a great man.

You tried all you could to save that marriage. I think that is admirable in a man.

Dh and I were just discussing this earlier this week. How much we tolerated from our previous spouses and how it makes us shake our heads in disbelief now. We both agreed it was a pretty good refining work....making us see needs and the marriage clearly and making us want to be the best mate we can be.

Hey thanks Tough and SW! I need a little encouragement right now. My tenant is moving out and with the D, my financial margins are bleeding edge thin. Very nervous, but hopeful.

Penni, I hope you consider all the good guidance you're getting here. Of course take your time, but know ultimately the decision is yours to remove yourself from a situation in which you are not able to thrive. The alternatives are many and varied even if it doesn't seem like it. From working hard on the program to getting out and "going alone."

opt

here

Hi All, thanks for the tough love. I think after a while, you forget what's normal. Prisca's example is exactly what I wish would happen.

We still went to dinner and he initiated the conversation about this topic. He said, "Could you just say, 'I'm really looking forward to spending time with you' and I will take that as code meaning that you are feeling needy. I just hate that word, needy."

The rest of the evening was very good.

It seems weird to get wrapped up in semantics.

He also admitted that as soon as he starts feeling a little emotional about something, he loses the ability to be flexible and understanding - he immediately moves to defending himself. He said he wants to work on it, but doesn't know how.

Maybe MB's suggestion about writing stuff down will help.

Dr. Harley didn't tell me to separate, he said to keep complaining and that eventually he would either change or I would want to separate.

Penni,

I'm a linguist, and I'm usually the first to say that semantics are important because it's how we communicate.

However, in this case, I don't care WHAT words you choose to use, it's his reaction to your needing attention that is alarming.

So he doesn't care for the word "needy." Doesn't excuse him telling you that you're incredibly annoying for wanting attention and that you "should just wait it out, rather than saying something, since everything will go back to normal after the holidays."