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Please note that this quote is a *revision* of the original article. It is quoted, as originally written, in the Dr. Harley would Plan A Joyce" thread. The quote is posted by Mr. W on the first page.
Those who quote the older are likely unaware of said revision.
Review and revision is one of the marks of professionalism exhibited by Dr. Harley (think about the SAA revision with more emphasis on exposure).
Its not "folklore," its just no longer current material. No, that's not accurate either. The passages MrW cited were truncated. They were also routinely misused by posters here. The wider context, which you could only see by reading the whole article, was that Dr Harley was discussing the things most people said before infidelity ever happened to them, and the contrast between that and what many people did AFTER it had happened to them. He was making the point that, in common with many people, Mrs Harley had said that she would kill him, and he had always thought that he would leave. BUT: It seemed not to work that way for many people when it actually happened to them. That was the point that I always understood him to be making. The article was about how amazing it was that people wanted to recover their marriages after betrayal - but they did. By the beginning of this year, I had read so many men here distort the message of this article by saying that Dr Harley would not recover his own marriage, and when I began the online seminar and was able to contact Dr Harley directly by email, I asked him about the article. He clarified with me that he was NOT saying that he would walk away and not look back. He was saying that he had at one time believed, like most people, that he would leave, should his wife be unfaithful. However, his experience working with couples showed him that their desire to recover would probably be shared by him. The point of the original passages was that we are surprised when we find ourselves facing the reality of an affair. He rewrote those passages after I pointed out the way they were being used. He did that to clarify his position and to stop the misunderstandings on the board, and not because he had revised his attitude. He rewrote them because the original did not express his point clearly. Your last paragraph is a repeat of my statement; there was a revision - as you state - to clarify and contextualize the statement. I understood the context in the original, as on Dday I did not throw my wedding ring at NGB's face as hard as I possibly could and tell her to hit the bricks as I had previously imagined I would have. This was stated in the aforementioned thread. However, some of that lack of context is why this revision and clarification was a big enough deal to be posted. The "misuse" was commonly held by several posters, as you mention yourself, and was not often corrected. In this regard, referring to this misconception as "folklore," knowing full well the proliferation of misconception as well as being directly knowledgeable of the revision, is frankly disrespectful to other board members. Simply stating that it has been revised and clarified would be sufficient without the backhanded insult to community intelligence.
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Please note that this quote is a *revision* of the original article. It is quoted, as originally written, in the Dr. Harley would Plan A Joyce" thread. The quote is posted by Mr. W on the first page.
Those who quote the older are likely unaware of said revision.
Review and revision is one of the marks of professionalism exhibited by Dr. Harley (think about the SAA revision with more emphasis on exposure).
Its not "folklore," its just no longer current material. No, that's not accurate either. The passages MrW cited were truncated. They were also routinely misused by posters here. The wider context, which you could only see by reading the whole article, was that Dr Harley was discussing the things most people said before infidelity ever happened to them, and the contrast between that and what many people did AFTER it had happened to them. He was making the point that, in common with many people, Mrs Harley had said that she would kill him, and he had always thought that he would leave. BUT: It seemed not to work that way for many people when it actually happened to them. That was the point that I always understood him to be making. The article was about how amazing it was that people wanted to recover their marriages after betrayal - but they did. By the beginning of this year, I had read so many men here distort the message of this article by saying that Dr Harley would not recover his own marriage, and when I began the online seminar and was able to contact Dr Harley directly by email, I asked him about the article. He clarified with me that he was NOT saying that he would walk away and not look back. He was saying that he had at one time believed, like most people, that he would leave, should his wife be unfaithful. However, his experience working with couples showed him that their desire to recover would probably be shared by him. The point of the original passages was that we are surprised when we find ourselves facing the reality of an affair. He rewrote those passages after I pointed out the way they were being used. He did that to clarify his position and to stop the misunderstandings on the board, and not because he had revised his attitude. He rewrote them because the original did not express his point clearly. Your last paragraph is a repeat of my statement; there was a revision - as you state - to clarify and contextualize the statement. I understood the context in the original, as on Dday I did not throw my wedding ring at NGB's face as hard as I possibly could and tell her to hit the bricks as I had previously imagined I would have. This was stated in the aforementioned thread. However, some of that lack of context is why this revision and clarification was a big enough deal to be posted. The "misuse" was commonly held by several posters, as you mention yourself, and was not often corrected. I n this regard, referring to this misconception as "folklore," knowing full well the proliferation of misconception as well as being directly knowledgeable of the revision, is frankly disrespectful to other board members.Simply stating that it has been revised and clarified would be sufficient without the backhanded insult to community intelligence.I meant no disrespect to other board members and I apologise for my backhanded insult to community intelligence.
BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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I eant no disrespect to other board members and I apologise for my backhanded insult to community intelligence. Your grace is to be admired. I trust if I have offended you, you will say so or notify my posts as you feel necessary.
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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Thank you. *edit* Also, THANK YOU for advocating for that revision.
Last edited by HoldHerHand; 12/03/11 04:20 PM.
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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And now this ..... Why not start over fresh with someone new? Because you are still experiencing an emotional whirlwind from time to time. Because you still have an emotional attachment for your unrepentant WH. (love bank still has some remaining units) Because you are vulnerable to someone who will flatter and charm you. Because you will be comparing any male prospects to your wayward and that will hamper your discernment about their virtues, or lack thereof. Simply put, you are not ready. Any "someone new" will be a man. Any man could be capable of hurting you with an affair (or otherwise). THAT'S the scary part. Second marriages have a higher failure rate for many reasons. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Be particular when dating. Be clear minded and pragmatic. Be free of nagging/lingering doubts about your current husband. Be already content with yourself and who you are. Be able to resist a reflected sense of self via a man who flatters you. Be able to discern the difference between flattery and admiration. (Guess which one has an agenda) Be at peace with waiting for someone who is right for you, not just right away. Be able to see  's where they exist. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ And, lastly ...... Why not start over fresh with someone new? The way you have phrased this question convinces me you are far, far, far from ready. "Start over" is the wish fulfillment oft expressed by the war weary (you). Your very question is wishful, not mindful. I dont mean myself here, Pep. I mean if you HAVE a repentant spouse (I do not) you still may decide to divorce, with the long term goal in mind of 'finding someone new'. I.e, those in the position of choosing may still find the choice of someone who has never betrayed them, more appealing. I am divorcing because I am married to someone unrepentant. If he remains so (and even if not - like you, I would have preferred a quicker show of repentance) I have the long term goal of finding someone new - but I agree I am nowhere near ready yet and cannot let anyone meet my needs at this time.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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The way you have phrased this question convinces me you are far, far, far from ready.
"Start over" is the wish fulfillment oft expressed by the war weary (you).
Your very question is wishful, not mindful. And you are q right - I do 'wish' I was ready! However I know that I am not.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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This has been a helpful thread for me Indie, thanks. And you are q right - I do 'wish' I was ready! However I know that I am not. Ditto from me. I often think how much easier all of this pain and heartbreak would be to bear if I had someone to comfort and distract me. But I can see how unhealthy and selfish that kind of thinking is. I am divorcing because I am married to someone unrepentant. If he remains so (and even if not - like you, I would have preferred a quicker show of repentance) I have the long term goal of finding someone new - but I agree I am nowhere near ready yet and cannot let anyone meet my needs at this time. Ditto again. More and more, and as regretful as I feel with this decision, recovery is not in my best interests. Even with a high LB$ balance that I have for the man he was, it would be easier for me to build a healthy relationship with someone new. When I am emotionally ready of course. It hurts even to write this, but it is where I am at right now.
Me (BW): 35
Married 1999 with no kids, DDay July 2011, OC born September 2012, Divorce final November 2012.
WXH (Gollum) is corrupted by his A, and now forever bound to it.
Plan B has set me free.
"Mourn the man he was. Know the man he is."
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He rewrote those passages after I pointed out the way they were being used. He did that to clarify his position and to stop the misunderstandings on the board, and not because he had revised his attitude. He rewrote them because the original did not express his point clearly. That's encouraging. It has been troubling for me to read it and am glad that his views have been refined. CV
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I dont mean myself here, Pep. I mean if you HAVE a repentant spouse (I do not) you still may decide to divorce, with the long term goal in mind of 'finding someone new'. I.e, those in the position of choosing may still find the choice of someone who has never betrayed them, more appealing. I realize that.  I am using your thread as a device to obliquely speak to others. (maybe  I have someone special in mind)
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Recovery is so difficult. Why not start over fresh with someone new? Recovery WAS very difficult. Interacting with the F?WS is a trigger in and of itself. I think I cried a little almost every day for at least 6 months after dday1 back in 2007. Divorce is easier in some ways but it is harder in other ways. The divorce process itself is very stressful and not having your children with you every day and basically having very limited control of what they are being exposed to when they are visitation with the WS is hell. So I guess what I am trying to say is even though my recovery efforts were basically thrown in my face and I was burned...again...I would wholeheartedly encourage any BS (especially one with kids) to try to recover the M if their WS is willing to get onboard with MB. Definitely. Plan D is not really *easier*. Maybe I will feel differently down the road...
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Recovery is so difficult. Why not start over fresh with someone new? Recovery WAS very difficult. Interacting with the F?WS is a trigger in and of itself. I think I cried a little almost every day for at least 6 months after dday1 back in 2007. Divorce is easier in some ways but it is harder in other ways. The divorce process itself is very stressful and not having your children with you every day and basically having very limited control of what they are being exposed to when they are visitation with the WS is hell. So I guess what I am trying to say is even though my recovery efforts were basically thrown in my face and I was burned...again...I would wholeheartedly encourage any BS (especially one with kids) to try to recover the M if their WS is willing to get onboard with MB. Definitely.
Plan D is not really *easier*. Maybe I will feel differently down the road... I feel sure you will. In the early days of my Plan D I was such a mess I didn't think I would survive. The only thing I knew for sure was that I would not stay and take the disrespect his double life was heaping upon me. 2 1/2 years after D-Day I am remarried and thrilled I didn't stick around with WxH trying to make it work. However, he is the seriel kind of cheater. And like Kirby there wasn't enough 'good' in that marriage to make it worth the fight. The keylogger allowed me to see the truth about him...not the full truth of 26 years of marriage I am sure, but enough to know he wasn't the kind of man I wanted to be married to. I totally believe in recovering marriages when there is true remorse and just compensation. The kids are worth it if nothing else.
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Preserving a marriage is the path I have chosen. It would be healthier for me to end my marriage. The red flags were there before I married. I had learned about a five year affair that ended my WW�s first marriage.
There was the company Christmas party (one month after we were engaged) where she left me to get us both a beer and did not return. Instead she sat down at a table that included her ex-lover and I sat and watched the clock tick for twenty five minutes until I walked over to her and asked her to dance only to have her walk away from me and return to the same table talking one on one with her ex-lover. I waited one dance and walked over again to ask her to dance only to have her engage in conversation with her ex-lover half way through the dance about an employee they both knew who needed to be driven home.
There was the very romantic Christmas card I stumbled upon in a file cabinet drawer from her ex-boss, apparently saved as a valuable keep sake (found two weeks after we were married). There were the tears when I asked her to never see him (her ex-boss) again that same day and a month later. This married man�s family portrait (with wife and children) remains in a wallet of photos that she carries in her purse to this day.
There was her ultimatum that she would either divorce me or I send my then 15 year old son (who was admittedly a little challenging and rebellious) away from our home (while her then 6 year old and 11 year old continued to live with us) at the end of our first year of marriage (she was pregnant with our now 12 year old son at the time).
There were the years of begging her to schedule weekend evening time so that we could go out together.
And finally there was the day (April 26, 2009) when I returned home one Sunday afternoon to hear her say �I love you� while ending a phone call using tone and intonation that is not how she says that phrase to family members.
There was the day I put a voice activated recorder in her car (October 2009) only to hear her talk to a friend about the man she worked with that she respected that she went to in order to make herself feel better when school was hard and how he was just someone she needed then.
There was the admission of an emotional affair with a man who she had an internet and telephone based affair with (he died of pneumonia in late 2010).
Today my married life is well� empty. I live in fear and in pain most everyday. My sleep has become so difficult that I have slept through the night for more than six hours once in the past year. I show attention and affection and we have a date night each week and we spend much more time with one another. I her own way she tries.
I long for the intimacy that would allow me to have her honesty but it is not to be. Just as Dr. Harley writes, most affairs are never discovered.
Truthfully, my life is as close to hell as I believe possible. I have known the terror of combat, the death of both my parents 20 days apart, the suffering of my first wife who led an on-going affair with a man I considered a close friend (prior to his involvement with my wife). And nothing comes close to the unrepentant behavior of my wife.
Having seen the damage to the children of my first marriage that divorce brought I cannot yet make myself choose this course for my 12 year old.
But my life has no joy, and the loneliness of living her lie is an on-going torture.
I have worked on my love buster (principally Angry Outbursts) behaviors and have conquered them.
You can�t quite call my circumstance �Recovery� and all I do is continue my MB based marriage counseling. My life is about fear. My life is about pain. I once asked this board if there were any members who �stuck it out� in my kind of situation. Suffice to say there were no respondents to my posting.
Several veteran posters here steered me through the ropes. I owe my life to one of them. If I can do this� any member here who has had a wayward spouse repent should learn something� They have someone who is trying to do the right thing. And you guys and gals who have been betrayed but have a repentant spouse have no idea how much I envy you and how happy for you this poster is.
Is it possible to recover absent full disclosure and honesty? My MB based counselor believes so. But he admits not having any science behind that. It certainly doesn�t feel like it most days.
In my selfish moments I want to know �Where is the pay off for my putting myself through all this fear and pain?� I am trying is all I can say. This is absolutely the hardest time of my life. My divorce (in my first marriage) was so much easier in so many ways.
So an unsolicited opinion� If you have a truly repentant spouse� You have what at least one person would gladly die for. You have a chance to make something good out of that which was bad.
Any day of the week I would trade places with you.
A different side to the question asked but relevant or so I think.
Hurtingturkey
Me: BS 57
WW: 50
Mine: DD30, DS29 and DS wounded Marine 23
Hers: DS23, DS19
Ours DS 12
DD# 1 April 26, 2009
DD# 2 Jan 31, 2010 (our Anniversary)
WW admitted do EA with OM # 1
WW refuses to identify OM # 2
Fear wears you down.
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