Yeah, right after I wrote that post she came inbthe room to print the EN worksheet. While I was writingshe had been reading the basic concepts! So the premise of the post was wrong and I deleted it.

I can't control what she's reading. She's almost done the book mow anyway, and she talks to me about it. She's pretty clear that she isn't reading it as advice. Says it makes her feel good because its the story of someone else's path to self-fulfilment after a personal breakdown. A big part of this is my wife's feeling of loss of self, like she has no idea of her own identity any more. She's tryong to work that through with our therapist, and I'm being Mr strength, supporting her and reminding her of wh she is, and that I love her for it.

I'm seeing too many episodes of "relationship talk". She and you both need to experience some genuine joy and fun together and this is the perfect season. Take her ice skating or something new. DO NOT talk about emotional needs or how to fix the damage.

Just go to her - say - let's take a break and go have some fun. Do some perfume or cologne testing at the mall. Listen to a Messiah Sing In concert. Do something that takes the pressure off of repairing the relationship and just do something that will serve that purpose without being obvious.

This morning I checked the keylogger and discovered that in her "recovery journal" (something our therapist suggested we both keep), she had written a letter to the OM. Cue crap about how she still looks for him everywhere, how she misses him and still loves him. She knew I wanted to delete all the photos and she looked through them one last time. In the letter she talks about keeping one, her favorite. And she talks about wanting to try for our marriage to work, and how she has to build up my trust in her again, as well as her trust in herself.

So I learned a few things.

1) she genuinely wants to try to make our marriage work. That's a good thing.
2) she's still in withdrawal (sigh).
3) she doesn't see any contradiction between keeping one photo and mooning over this jerk, and rebuilding my trust. Privately, I call this kind of nonsense the Fog horn. Because it cues very loudly that this is fog talking, and its best to cover your ears!

I told her today that we have to delete the photos. She insisted on doing it with me there to see rather than having me do it myself. She showed some impressive hiding places as she deleted them all. She says she didn't realize that photos were a violation of NC (neither did I until Melody and others on this board explained). I explained that anything that gives the emotional kick of a connection with the jerk is a breach. She's allowed to write whatever she wants in her journal, but no reminders. She suggested a few other small reminders that I should get rid of, and I did.

It was a damn hard conversation. ANOTHER one. KaylaAndy you are so right that we have to stop having these, but dammit she just set us back to day one od withdrawal again!

So clearly I can't go away and leave her here, it will wreck everything. I said I would be OK with going away if she had concrete plans to get out of town herself, and I guess we'll talk about those tomorrow. As it is, the conversation was too emotionally charged to be useful continuing. I blew up at her really badly at one point when she was resisting deleting the photos and calling me controlling. Agh.

We spent the rest of the day decorating our christmas tree and being positive. Tonight we go out to see some supportive family friends.

She is back to being physically cold with me. She lets me give her a Peck on the cheek now and again, and I can hug her (she responds well to that at least), but no reciprocation from her at the moment.

So I'm back to withdral, with strengthened EP to keep her from backsliding. At this point the only thing she could do to get anything from him would be to walk to his house. She says she would leave me first. She says "I can't promise that I wont do it, but I can promise to try, and if I have to do it, to at least leave you first." Small comfort.

I have to give this some time to cool off. Too many seroous talks in too short of a time doesn't help my cause! But I will be keeping my eyes open for one last picture, though it didn't look like she left one. Otherwise I guess I'm back to plan A. Merry Christmas to me!

lostexpat, you did GREAT! The fact that she has been looking at the OM's pictures might be an explanation for why she is still so foggy. I would still keep your eyes peeled for secret phones and any other avenues of contact.


That would be ok if you are going away WITH HER, but you should not be traveling apart. You should pledge to never spend the night apart again.


This is a huge problem and makes me wonder if she is not doing this now. This would explain why she needs "space." Let her know if she walks to his house it is a deal breaker. How far do you live from him? If you live close enough to walk, you might want to MOVE. Trying is not doing and you have to have protection.

Is this why she wants "space?" Is she walking to his house? Is he coming over when you are gone?

Mel, I have a question about expat's situation, and you probably know the answer.

What do we advise on recent (or even distant) way wards writing about their feelings after the affair in a journal? I think it must keep them wallowing and focusing on what they are missing (puke) rather than using exercises and techniques to stop thinking about the affair. I think keeping a journal could prolong withdrawal.

Perhaps Dr H has talked about his on the radio, but if not, what do posters think - especially ones who have been through withdrawal?

I agree. Pining away for her addiction only keeps her feelings on the front burner. That is a good point.

I was just wondering that, myself. This wayward appears to be keeping the torch burning by journalling about how much she misses POSOM.

A recovery journal should focus on recovery. And writing letters to the OM is not recovery. That being said, you can't really address this without giving away your keylogger. Is there a way you can address this without giving that up? I think it is valuable that you can read her journal for now in order to keep tabs on her.

First of all, we're not really in walking distance. It would be an hour or so... she'd have to take the subway etc. From the content of her journal letter, I know she hasn't seen or heard from him. So that's something.

Second, I agree about pining in a journal being a bad thing. I think the best way to handle it is to talk to the therapist about it, and make sure the therapist clarifies the purpose of the journal. Its definitely not worth giving up the keylogger for!

As for travel... I need this time with my family, for me. She can travel and be with supportive family, and have 2-3 sessions with the therapist a week. Those are good things. And she feels like she needs time to feel like herself again - read "get through withdrawal". Frankly I don't have the strength to be close to her as she gets through withdrawal again. Having time away will be a blessing.

Being apart is not good for your marriage, though. Your marriage totally affects your quality of life, so when you are apart, you add to the detachment at a very vulnerable time. Spending the nights apart is NOT GOOD for even good marriages. Your marriage is on life support. I would reconsider any plans that take you apart from each other over night. It is NOT GOOD for your marriage.

I don't like the sound of this. Going through withdrawal is NOT a good time for a wayward to be away from their spouse. This is part of the heavy lifting, lost.

How does the therapist help your marriage? What is she/he doing for your marriage EXACTLY? Most therapists cause more harm than good. Is this one helping?

If you go away without her, she WILL go see the OM. I know because I am a WW. If my husband had left me to "find myself" while I was in withdrawl, I would have run to POSOM. I, too, wrote letters to my POSOM. It does keep the fire burning.
I don't know why you won't address her issue of depression. Is she suicidal? Her depression has to be treated before you can work the MB program. Dr. Harley is right about that.
This is the last time I will ask you about it. I'm concerned for your wife's mental stability.

Hi comedy -
I'm not really addressing the suicidal aspect because I think its a red Herring here. She has talked about hurting herself, for the first time in about ten years. She mentioned to the marriage counselor that she had suicidal thoughts after our first big "discussion" after she got back. To my knowledge those haven't recurred, and I don't think she is suicidal. But I was worried for a bit, there.

I can't do anything about the letter to the POSOM.right now. Its not a daily occurrence ; it only happened once after a big fight. So I have to wait that one out for a bit. It is a bigger problem that we haven't gone a day without a serious talk since she's been back. That's the pressure she's really talking about and resisting. Every day a new blowup or challenge or demand. I have to stop that, but its been very hard.

The other part of the pressure she's pushing against is the pressure for physical affection and sex. I have a great need for physical affection, as well as for sex. And I still thrill at her touch, and still want to make love to her. When I cool my heels she tends to initiate affection more, and we can snowball to quite intimate cuddling. But she shuts off when she feels like there might be sex coming. Even when she's clearly enjoying everything. It kills me to think that this is because her body still belongs to the POSOM. It makes me feel like she's cake eating even without him around. Unfortunately I can't talk to her about it without initiating another serious talk. So I'm trying tobjust let the conversation, affection, and recreation do their work. Trusting that sex will come with a bit of time.

Day 1 has been pretty good. I'm still waking up with mild anxiety attacks at about 8am, and the only way to relieve it is to get up and go for a long walk, take some time to do things that recharge ME. When my WW woke up we agreed to stick together during the holidays, though now she is considering going to hawaii with me. It's an open invitation from my family, but it all depends on her comfort level. I don't want to force her into a situation where she feels intense guilt for the past 24x7, that would just build a lot of negativity. We have another option of going to visit her cousin and friends, on vacation in a small town a few hours away... that would be lower key, have more options for activities together and apart as we're feeling like it. Either way we're going to try and stick it out together to find a way of living where I'm not a dependent emotional leech, and she's not feeling pressured to move into relationship rebuilding until she's ready. The deal we struck:

* no "serious" relationship talks at least until we can sit down with our therapist to do it (Jan 2 IIRC). These daily talks are killing us, and all the important stuff is out there now.

* no mention of the A between us until that same date

* When one of us is in a funk, the other will try to give them what they express a need for. IE in my case I often need physical affection. She often needs space from my helicopter relationship building so she can "breathe it out" and come back (meaning I leave the room or just sit quietly while she gets through it).

* More or less daily: we will get out of the house to do something we both enjoy, together.

* We will both make an effort to have real conversation with each other, not stonewalling.

* We will allow physical affection and SF to happen organically, but we both understand that one should not always lead to the other. This was a big frustration for her in the old relationship, that affection always had to lead to sex. Our rule for now is that affection is good, and we will follow where it leads when we feel like it honestly... but that we will both respect each other's "veto" when things leave the comfort zone.

So day 1 was pretty good. We did slip up and tlak seriously briefly about her coming to hawaii. She mentioned "I just have to hope that OM wants me to be happy and move on in my life. I can't stand the thought otherwise. No contact is really hard." I said "Yes, no contact is really hard. Even when you know why you have to do it, it doesn't make it easy. But you have to stop worrying about what he thinks. What he - what you both did was disgusting and hurtful to everyone and everything you love. I understand that it hurts, but you have to stop romanticizing it. This wasn't some great love, it was a terrible thing to do. This is a guy who made a move on a married woman the second time he met her. Don't waste your thought on him." She cut me off at the end and said we had to stop talking about it. Fair enough, no serious talks!

But it hurts of course. It's very hard to think that while I'm captain of the Plan A team, being loving, interested, good looking, and respectful, her heart is still with this POSOM. I know that she's fighting it and that's just withdrawal... and she doesn't rub it in my face or anything... but it still hurts. When she doesn't want to let me hold or touch her, it's because of the POSOM.

I just keep reminding myself of three things:

* It's who she is TODAY that matters. The past is done and nothing can change it... but who she is TODAY is someone who is trying to fix things.

* Be the lighthouse. Dont' respond, just listen and be the damn lighthouse.

* He stole her away from me while I was present but not fighting... I can DEFINITELY take her away from him while he's gone. Time and absence are on my side. Just gotta be awesome, build tension between us, and let time do it's thing.

Hopefully.

I just don't understand marriages where spouses have separate holidays. You should never have got to the stage of considering going to Hawaii with your family while she does something alone. Married people just shouldn't do that! That kind of separate activity is indicative of independent behaviour and separate existences more generally in your marriage.

Your plan all along should either have been for you to go together, or not go together. You don't say what the final decision is on Hawaii, but whether you go there, or go away with your friends, or don't go anywhere at all, you need to spend breaks and holidays together.

lostexpat, are you married?

lost, is SF one of your top ENs? Because this agreement the two of you made has effectively ended SF as you may want it. She has been given permission by you to refuse SF indefinitely because it's out of her 'comfort zone'.

She has a valid complaint if it's true that affection has always led to SF. Affection shouldn't necessarily 'lead' to SF. Those are two separate ENs, although they often dovetail. She's right to feel resentful if that has always been the case in the past. She may have felt that you were taking advantage of her need for affection as a means to an end: SF for you.

But the way you're addressing this makes me concerned that the two of you will become 'cuddle buddies' because anything more than that will be outside of her 'comfort zone' and she'll 'veto' it.

I'm a firm believer that spouses should have sex as often as possible. SF typically isn't a No.1 need of a wife, but the affection and intimacy that revolves around SF typically IS. Frequent SF blends a couple of pretty big ENs for both spouses. I would revisit this 'veto' agreement. I'm afraid it's going to come back to bite you. I would suggest that you renegotiate this and come to an agreement regarding a schedule for SF. Agree that, at other times, the two of you will be affectionate, but will not have SF.

My honest feeling is that she is not interested in having SF with you and this is a nifty way for her to dodge it - with your blessing, no less.

Vacations should always taken together. I'm not sure what the deal is with you going on vacation with your family and without her. If she's not comfortable going, go somewhere else together.

The deal with the separate vacation is that originally it was supposed to be both of us. Then this happened, and it became neither of us. Then we had a big blowup about this whole thing - she was "depressed" and stonewalling me, and I was frustrated as hell, because I thought she was out of Withdrawal. I just threw up my hands. Where we are, we have no support network to speak of. We've only lived in this country for 3 months! So when I'm really in a low place, I have no one to turn to except the phone. After the blowup, I was feeling completely hopeless... I thought "that's it, I'm just going away with my family. I need this to recharge. It won't help us any to be separate for that time, but if she's out of town I know she won't see the OM. It will just be space for her to come out of her depression and to see the therapist for extra sessions." Basically, it's exhausting giving all my energy to this relationship and person when she's not giving anything but negativity back, and I was running on empty.

Then I found out that the reason she was depressed was that she spent a night pining over pictures. Back to day 1 of Withdrawal, and in that state I definitely can't be apart from her. So we're planning the holiday together, but whether we go to Hawaii or more locally depends on what we decide today. Anyway the goal is to find a way of living together where we aren't making huge withdrawals every day with relationship talk. My private goal is to build in behaviors that make deposits in the core ENs. She won't get them all because she's in W, but I will and it will give me strength for when she's really slumping.

Melody, yes we are married.

Maritalbliss, this is a temporary agreement. Yes SF is a top need for me. It's also a top need for her. We do need to figure out how to have affection without sex, and I'm ok with doing it this way for a little bit. I am only in the last week feeling ready to start having sex with her again... and she's still in Withdrawal, so it makes sense that she's conflicted and in pain about the whole prospect. We're still just trying to spend more than 48 hours without fighting or bringing up "the relationship"!

Day 1 as I mentioned was quite good. After I posted, we talked about her aversion to too much affection or sex... seh said there were two things going on for her.

1) She was afraid of giving me false hope, like giving affection would make me think that she had "made her choice" and we were back together again. ("made her choice": she says she has decided to stay and try for the relationship, but her heart isn't there yet. "Made her choice" means that heart and mind are both on board... or in MB parlance, that Withdrawal is really over.)

2) Sometimes it just gets too intense and she feels uncomfortable. She doesn't know why, it's just sometimes something inside her stops saying "go go go this feels great" and starts saying "stop".

I said that number 2 is natural and normal and something we should respect for the time being. I think it will diminish and disappear with LB deposits, probably fairly quickly. Then I said "you shouldn't worry about number 1. I know that you're in a really painful place right now, starting Withdrawal all over again. That takes a few weeks to get through, and I'm not expecting that your heart will be 100% committed until that's over. But in the meantime, affection and sex are two of the best ways to build connection to each other, and we shouldn't block them out."

After that talk, she got much more physically affectionate with me. We talked (nicely, respectfully) for a long time... she needed to vent some fog-induced fears that it won't work out, that she's not made for monogamy, etc etc and I was in a place to listen without letting it hurt me. As always, the chain of reasoning just takes us to "I don't know what will happen in the future, we just have to take this one step at a time. When we're in a stronger place together, we'll be able to take better stock of the future."

Anyway it was a Deposit kind of talk, even if it was about relationship fears. We held each other a lot and I gave a back rub... that very easily could have gone sexual, but I kept it at just affection to keep her comfortable. In basically 24 hours we went from nil to Conversation, Recreational Activities, and Affection, with an open door to Sexual Fulfillment. I figure those are fantastic gains!

So Bliss, at this point I'm just happy to have 3 of the 4 core needs being fulfilled for each other on a daily basis. She's in withdrawal and can't receive all of the deposits, but she can receive a lot of them and does respond positively. On a track like that I don't think it will take long to get to SF, and if it does we will work out options like a schedule... but in the meantime, we seem to have found a track with lots of deposits together during a really hard time, so I'm not pushing my luck. I'm trying to think like the POSOM who seduced her in the first place - take your time, just build deposits and be patient.

This is very good, lost. I wasn't aware that SF was a top EN for her. If that's the case then the agreement the two of you made sounds temporary and you'll work back to having SF.

I think you're doing great getting her through withdrawal - keep going!