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hey sunny. yes, i've been plan a-ing for the last couple of weeks, but don't think i've been doing a good job of it. the second half of last night went well: provided lots of affection, and got several kisses and spooning to go to sleep last night. how i wish he would TALK to me! i have a good plan for this weekend as well.

i have started drafting an exposure letter to send to all his friends and my family. he doesn't have any family. i don't know about exposing to ow's possible b/f - she never reciprocated any of his advances, only deflected, but...maybe i can find out, anyway. i guess if anything he needs to know someone's tried to poach her (and that she wasn't poachable).

i will post the letter when i can, hopefully today. i will do it on monday after i've had the opportunity to really plan a this weekend.

how long after that should i wait to plan b? i had an email from the harley's this morning (thanks mod!) and had to resend the request for counselling, so it probably won't be until next friday. i am loathe to plan b before then, unless i simply can't take it any more. last night i was able to call a woman i know and vent, and that helped me significantly so i didn't AO when he got home, and instead we had a relatively pleasant dinner. we also worked on revising our ENs. surprise, surprise, conversation is now at the top of his list. but having one with him is like pulling teeth. he either "grills" me: "what did you do at work today? why did that happen? what did you say?" or i try to speak with him and get one word answers and have to keep pulling (pushing?) to engage him. he does talk with me about trivial stuff, but nothing from the heart/about our life.

i've got work now. thanks again :O)


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Sample exposure letter. recommendations please!


Dear FOJ
I am writing to ask you for help. As you know, J and I have been married for 16 years. I love him very, very much and want our marriage to continue.

(MB forum: I include this next part as it was never exposed originally) J had an affair with a woman he met on the internet 5 years ago. We went through 18 months of hell before he decided he wanted to commit to the marriage. During this time, he was using several different email accounts, a fake name, and even meeting women here in XX with wine and flowers before he went to CAN to consummate the relationship hed cultivated with XX. Following which he came home, looked me straight in the eye, lied, then proceeded to expose me to possible STIs. He then spent 6 months in marriage counselling, telling me how much he loved me and wanted to be married to me, while carrying on long distance with XX. Then, it seems he was able to commit to the marriage, and I thought we finally had an honest and open relationship.

I tell you this ONLY so that you can understand that when I find J chatting online with single women, about birthday suits and bubble baths and buying her crotchless panties (paste in messages), which he later tries to tell me is just a joke, I not only dont think its funny, I am terrified for the state of our marriage. Especially when later he tells me he loves me and would do nothing to hurt our marriage, he tells OW (paste in message where he says he will still text her and Im a sneaky, insecure b). I have proof of everything I have stated here. I am responding the way your own wife would if you were having such conversations with single women after having already once committed adultery. He is currently telling me that he loves me and wants our marriage, while simultaneously telling his friends (paste text where he says hes done and will leave me).

I love J very much and have worked very, very hard to keep him happy at home. I do not expect you to take a side or tell/check up on him. I only ask that you tell him his behaviour is wrong. That a married man does not tease and flirt with single women online or lie to his wife. Our family needs to stay intact. He needs to commit to us. Please help me preserve our marriage by asking him to stop his behaviour.
Sincerely,
Letty


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I'm not as good as the vets who've been around longer on the letters. My first though is in your last paragraph. I would change that business about taking sides to not expecting them to side between you but to side FOR the marriage and provide support.

My exposure letter was not as detailed - was more succinct. I didn't give specifics but stated I could provide evidence. You want to sound calm, confident, and rational in your letter - not like you are wanting revenge or just a jealous wife. In that regard, you may want to shore it up to be more professional. Not that it is terrible - or sounds irrational - just not sure it needs all the detailed stuff. (That could be for follow up, if needed.)

I'm hoping those with a little more experience can pop in soon. smile

As for when to go in Plan B...that depends. Although, if you have already been in Plan A for a few weeks you don't want to be in Plan A much longer, that's for sure! For women it it typically no longer than 3 weeks.

You said your H was aware of your spyware. Have you seen any more evidence of his goings on? If he is indeed aware, he will just feed you what he wants you to see. I guess I'm wondering why on earth he would want you to see texts calling you a crazy b@#$* and that you go before his computer, etc...


"The #1 reason why people give up so quickly is because they tend to look at how far they still have to go, rather than how far they've gotten."

Me, FBW(46) H, FWH (43)
M - 21 yrs & counting
D (20)
S (18)
S (16)
Surviving and Thriving since November 2010 thanks to MB!
My Recovery Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538986#Post2538986
My Original Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457141&page=1

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thanks sunny. through my tears, i did make one mistake on the texts. it was "she goes before my camera." no computer. i guess my brain was expecting that instead!

will work on the letter. since it's going to all married, male friends, i thought that the background was important, because it provides context for my current fears, but if the vets think i should take it out, i will. will take your advice about the last bit.

(sigh) i don't know how he knows about the spyware. i just had to show him how to adjust the brightness of the screen, so how could he know? unless he looked in the history. i was stupid enough to think it wouldn't show up there (duh). have now deleted all traces, but i cannot access the online page to switch from free to paid version (expires today). everytime i try, nothing happens. have tried different browsers, etc. think i'll go stick the dongle into the main computer, which isn't currently connected, and do it from there.

on the upside, plan a went well yesterday. and our appt is thursday morning (6.30am!). greatly looking forward to it.


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Originally Posted By: Letty
thanks sunny. through my tears, i did make one mistake on the texts. it was "she goes before my camera." no computer. i guess my brain was expecting that instead!

will work on the letter. since it's going to all married, male friends, i thought that the background was important, because it provides context for my current fears, but if the vets think i should take it out, i will. will take your advice about the last bit.

(sigh) i don't know how he knows about the spyware. i just had to show him how to adjust the brightness of the screen, so how could he know? unless he looked in the history. i was stupid enough to think it wouldn't show up there (duh). have now deleted all traces, but i cannot access the online page to switch from free to paid version (expires today). everytime i try, nothing happens. have tried different browsers, etc. think i'll go stick the dongle into the main computer, which isn't currently connected, and do it from there.

on the upside, plan a went well yesterday. and our appt is thursday morning (6.30am!). greatly looking forward to it.


Check out the link HDW provided, most definitely! I guess the background would need to be considered in the context of which the people that you are exposing to need details...but my thoughts are that you can always provide those specifics later, if need be. Sometimes short and to the point makes you sound more competent.

I was wondering what you might have found (if anything) through the computer/phone spyware since your H apparently knows about it. ???

It makes sense that he said camera instead of computer... but either way, it just shows his wayward thinking at that time.

So, with Plan A going well do you think H is just laying low right now or what?

What's the appointment for on Thursday? With the lawyer??


"The #1 reason why people give up so quickly is because they tend to look at how far they still have to go, rather than how far they've gotten."

Me, FBW(46) H, FWH (43)
M - 21 yrs & counting
D (20)
S (18)
S (16)
Surviving and Thriving since November 2010 thanks to MB!
My Recovery Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538986#Post2538986
My Original Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457141&page=1

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Letty Offline OP
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Thanks H, for the link. We haven't had internet at home now for several days; peeving me off! customer service in this country is practically non-existant. i am hoping very much our home phone will be re-established by wed so we can make the all imp call on thurs!

sunny - i am not very good at plan a. i don't know how attractive i made marriage to me over the weekend, as i seemed to cry a lot. however, we spent the entire weekend together, beginning friday after work, and it was lovely. lots of top 5 ENs being met on both sides. we gardened together, worked around our house together (installed a "big cat" door), listened to some MB radio, went for a drive, went to a car show, SF (i pulled a neak after dinner, lol), etc, then last night reviewed what needs were met, and specifically HOW.

we had a very open and honest conversation sat night, which was a revelation to me. he so often doesn't talk to me about anything important, and it was lovely to hear him speak, and speak honestly. i was able to explain that i don't get angry as sad and frustrated at what an effort it is to communicate with him, and he told me that while on thursday he was VERY angry with me for giving him an ultimatum, after some thought he could see how it wasn't "you got up and decided to really make me mad" but a progression of behaviour that *resulted* in the ultimatum.

we spent a lot of time talking about ENs, and love languages, and reading the case studies. i feel inside that he is maybe starting to "get" it, but i don't want to be all pollyanna about it. i am still keeping the poly on the table, among other things. we are both looking forward to our appt with dr harley this week, even if it is at 4.30am our time! i am continuing plan a during this time, working on improving it each day. i am hoping that plan a will progress to...recovering? but i am still organising a plan b with a target date.

re the spyware. i am having a lot of trouble with it, and our inconsistent internet service is not helping. i don't know if he really "knows," or if he made it up. i am able to access all his accounts with his passwords (we use lastpass to create and store unique passwords), and there has been little contact with females - the only female he spoke to was a model who asked about a shoot in another city in two weeks, and he texted her back that he was unable to do it. he also told me about it. i am going with him on that trip - we have determined that as much as we both enjoy the PD we get out of travelling for work-related issues (and that one would have been a paid photo shoot), it's not worth the potential damage to the marriage. we looked at our schedules for the next 8 months, and planned mini-breaks around the trips so that we can accompany each other. in the meantime, no females.

sunny, can you tell me how you managed to transition from A busted! to recovery? did you do the online programme? i plan on doing that; it's a pity we can't attend a programme in person.


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If you're going to plan A, you've got to commit and be all in! Do you know all the intricacies of it? I assume you have read up on it but there are some good posts around about what it is and what it isn't...and about carrot/stick, etc...

But...very good to read that a lot of ENs were met over the weekend! smile And excellent work on the appointment - I had forgotten you mentioned getting the counseling appt through MB. AWESOME!

As far as H opening up - I have found that it comes much easier when you are building that real intimacy the MB program produces. Things don't come down to who's right/who's wrong anymore when there's a disagreement and you get to know each other in such a better way than ever thought possible...and the sharing becomes natural rather than forced.

In my situation, once the affair was busted it didn't take long for the recovery process to begin. The exposure ended the affair within days and plan B was also only days for me...then H was willing to meet my terms for recovery to begin. He moved back home about a month after I exposed the affair and we began the MB at home program: the workbook along with Lovebusters and His Needs Her Needs. We had CDs to listen to as well as the workbook and books. When you "do it yourself" rather than through the online program you don't get the personal counseling, but it has been effective for us. You have to be disciplined enough to actually do it though and not let it fall by the wayside because the crisis is "over" and no one is holding you accountable.

There used to be a weekend you could attend but Dr. Harley no longer does those.


"The #1 reason why people give up so quickly is because they tend to look at how far they still have to go, rather than how far they've gotten."

Me, FBW(46) H, FWH (43)
M - 21 yrs & counting
D (20)
S (18)
S (16)
Surviving and Thriving since November 2010 thanks to MB!
My Recovery Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538986#Post2538986
My Original Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457141&page=1

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Letty Offline OP
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it's the "being strong" that's the hard part for me, as without home phone/internet i haven't been able to lean on my sister or mother, and it would be wonderful to be able to just ring and be able to vent, then buck up and get on with it. but it is getting easier by the day. i have no idea, though, how women with an h in an active a manage it, though it is easier to take action than it is to sit back and hope!

things appear to be going well here. he is responding well to plan a, resulting in more carrot than stick. he is even returning ENs. i got several texts today while at work, and a dinner plan before i'd even had lunch. i've always pretty much ignored my mobile before; it was often uncharged or under my car seat or whathaveyou, but since neither of us has access to a regular phone during the day it is a great little all day helper!

we've got a lovely weekend planned as well - picnic and evening at a sandy beach (most of our beaches are rocky) before our summer runs out.

i am going to purchase the MB online programme for us to have ready for thursday. tonight we're working through the last 2 basic concepts he's not familiar with: giver & taker and 3 states of mind.

you know, after 4 good years, it was this last year that has been rocky. i had 2 surgeries back to back, and he was great for my 3 months of recovery (and immobility), but after going back to my full time job, i was exhausted all the time and had very little energy for meeting ENs, which i think was my problem and fault. i kept thinking about it, you know? but i couldn't seem to work up the energy. how terribly i would have felt if i were on the other end of that! and, no surprise here, neither one of us talked about it. i don't want that to ever happen again. it is hard to keep up when you're several years down the road, but let me stand as an example of the dangers of letting your relationship slide, no matter what the extenuating circumstances are.

ok, i'm off. catch you later!


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I understand what you mean about letting things slide. Just keep in mind that even if you did slide, your H should have coped in better ways rather than chatting up OW!

I know when I look back at the pre-crisis marriage I had it's easy to see the ways in which I needed to be a better wife - hindsight (and MB knowledge) being 20/20. It still doesn't excuse H's behavior though.

I'm sure you're not blaming yourself, but I just wanted to remind you that at the base of both of our H's bad behavior is their terrible boundaries with the opposite sex. That HAS to change for recovery to truly happen! And...there needs to be a switch from Renter to Buyer in the marriage.


"The #1 reason why people give up so quickly is because they tend to look at how far they still have to go, rather than how far they've gotten."

Me, FBW(46) H, FWH (43)
M - 21 yrs & counting
D (20)
S (18)
S (16)
Surviving and Thriving since November 2010 thanks to MB!
My Recovery Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538986#Post2538986
My Original Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457141&page=1

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I agree with Sunny. While you can and should take responsibility for your pre-A marriage, the affair is 100% on your WH's shoulders.

Are you in recovery now? You wouldn't be in Plan A and recovery. One or the other. Plan A would happen if there was an ACTIVE affair, or if you were trying to get your WH to commit to recovery.


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PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION

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hi scotty. trying to get H to commit to recovery. i think we may be there. i find the sitch kinda confusing, myself.

ok, so had 1st appt with steven harley today. mostly an introductory thing, but he was on w/H for a loooooong time, and just clarified some things w/me. basically, H has to get off his duff and take responsibility to be in the programme or not, and he can action this be educating HIMSELF with MB concepts. he did not discuss our questionnaires with me.

getting up at 4.15am to have this appt was not easy, nor was corralling 150 male high school students for the rest of the day after that (though driving H's new camero just imported from the states did give me a certain amount of cachet today). but it was worth it, i hope! we'll see, i guess, when H gets home from work, though i have to remember that he will be as knackered as i am.

as it's thursday night here, i am very eager for the weekend and our beach day. H is working very hard; 10 hour days and saturdays right now. and H is NOT an engineer! lol.

sunny, you said that SF helps with the going back to sleep thing. but that would mean I'D have to wake up! uhuh j/k!


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I hope your H was receptive to what he heard from Dr. H, Letty. That will tell you a lot about where his head is at. Just be prepared for whatever reaction you get from him.

A: totally receptive (which would be great!)
- make sure actions follow words! Set a plan.

B: totally unreceptive and defensive - not that unusual after being called on the carpet.
- don't overreact to this; decide now how to handle it.

C. Apathetic or midstream acceptance - he still is not 100% on board with wanting to change or seeing the need to but is trying to appease you so you won't take further action.
- again, don't overreact; decide how to handle it.

How long do you want to continue to plan A if H is not all in?

Remember, your goal here is an exceptional marriage: one that makes you feel safe and is fulfilling for both of you.

If you are too tired to handle H's reaction to this, put off the conversation when you are rested and rational. smile I know I would feel off getting up that early! Kudos to you for making it a priority!!! And on the new car! smile

As for the sleep issue, I think it's easier for men to be woken up than women for SF, lol. Be glad your H isn't an engineer - all the literalness can drive one mad at times!!! LOL


"The #1 reason why people give up so quickly is because they tend to look at how far they still have to go, rather than how far they've gotten."

Me, FBW(46) H, FWH (43)
M - 21 yrs & counting
D (20)
S (18)
S (16)
Surviving and Thriving since November 2010 thanks to MB!
My Recovery Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538986#Post2538986
My Original Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457141&page=1

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sorry to take so long to respond. i wrote a semi-lengthy reply last weekend that apparently disappeared into the ether! i've had a big crisis at work, and am still dealing with the drama queens who can't cope, and when home want to devote my time to UA and EN meeting, so little time to be online.

got up early on sat morning to have 2 appts with dr harley yesterday. i'm hoping that our next one can be a bit later, as i'm just not ready to converse at 6.30am after what had been a full and stressful week (work related). this time i'm going to have my questions written down so i know what i want to say.

also, our books arrived, and i am halfway through both surviving an affair and HNHN. some good stuff in there, but something bothers me, and it bothered me in my appt yesterday too. i'd like to hear from some others about this. it's pretty personal, but it's something that's bothered me for many years.

it seems to me that there is still, in this day and age, an outdated notion that all men want is sex, and that women don't really care, unless they are "in the mood." now, i've never had a houseful of kids, nor did i have to work full time while raising a child, so maybe i'm unusual. but...sf is one of my top 3 ENs. i have spent my life reading articles about how women need to meet men's sf needs, and thinking the whole thing is hogwash and wondering when men would get the message that women value sex too! the only time i've been with a man who wants sf more often than me was with my first love in my early 20s (we were the same age). of course, i'm looking at this issue from the perspective of an age 50s H, rather than, say, a 32 yo H. but i'm a bit disappointed with this line of thinking. while i can appreciate sf for the UA time, and affection, it is the sf itself that is important to me. perhaps i have a high level of testosterone? dr h quetione me over it yesterday, certain that i was using sf as a substitute for other ENs, and he was rather surprised that it is the physical side, not the emotional/mental one that is my primary goal with sf.

anyhow, i doubt that's a very clear paragraph. (sigh) i just don't know.

anyhow, in other news, our beach picnic last weekend was absolutely magical. i read from the 5 love languages on our drive out, we played checkers and waded in the tide, had our picnic, then watched the stars come out. it was amazing. (and H had some needs met too :O) it wasn't so amazing when we discovered we were locked into the beach parking lot, but instead of being angry (h can often be a hothead) we just continued trying to name constellations while waiting for security. we've both talked about it all week as a lovely day.

there's been an awful lot of EN-meeting going on, on a wide scale, not just bits & pieces. i'm feeling really positive, and have hope that this will be a real recovery and not a false one, but i am not ready to put all my eggs in one basket just yet.

on the funny side, here's a little anecdote. on thursday i had a pretty bad day at work. when i got home, H wasn't home yet, so instead of moping i thought i'd turn the energy into action. i got dolled up, put on a little something i'd bought from the hooker shop in hollywood, boots & all. i heard the truck pull in, put myslf into an attractive position, then...i heard the lawnmower start up! lmao, note to self: next time, be a better communicator. a note on the porch saying "come upstairs for a surprise" may get me better results!

back to work tomorrow and can't wait for the drama to end on thursday, do or die. hope y'all have a great week. i will try to pop in more often, but don't really want the tech at work to read all this stuff!


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Well, it sounds like your H is on board with the MB program, Letty and that's great!

I don't blame you for not wanting work associates to be privy to your personal life. Good thing you think about those types of things. Many people do not. Even if the techies don't necessarily go snooping, they basically can know everything you ever write if they so choose. Sorry work is such a downer right now. Sounds like it is short term though, so that's good.

I laughed when I read your Thursday scenario! LOL

So, where exactly do you stand at this point? Are you still in Plan A or do you feel the two of you are now in recovery? Has he met all your conditions for staying in the marriage? Have you made sure he is not in any contact with other women and has shored up his boundaries? That's very important for not having a false recovery! No more badmouthing you to his friends?

Is H also doing the phone consultations or just you? Have the two of you done the worksheets?

As for the SF, I understand what you are getting at. I consider myself pretty high drive as well. In fact, when H read HNHN he got a little defensive over the SF issue saying, "Why is it everyone thinks men just want sex all the time. It isn't true." I had to point out to him that it might seem lower on his need list than with other men because we have always had SF very frequently and I am usually up for it as much as he is. When you're not suffering from the lack of something you want, there really is no conscious thought of making it a priority to be met. A man in the desert cries out for water while a man surrounded by fresh water doesn't think twice about needing it.

Now, it's an interesting thought that you may be replacing other needs with SF. I am no expert and I've wondered about that too: if my high drive is my psyche trying to get what it needs in this way. But, like you, it seems my drive is as much about the physical as anything else. It just isn't something I think too much about because hey - why complain! It works for me - works for H - and we can focus on other needs since we're both happy in that dept. smile

Now, if your H isn't as high drive as you are, then I would consider it an issue. Otherwise, my thoughts are just to focus on other top needs.

Something to consider: Emotional Needs as described in the MB program, in my view, have a deeper meaning than what one might normally consider in the context of the definition of "emotional." I used to think an "Emotional Affair" was an affair that was romantic and lovey-dovey and just not yet consummated. In actuality, an Emotional Affair doesn't necessarily have to be lovey-dovey. It just has to meet a deep need that someone has with or without all the flowery stuff.

For instance, you may have a woman whose husband works a lot. Lets say she really is not getting help with the kids at all. Along comes "Ben" who tosses the ball with little Johnny and Sam every afternoon - allowing the woman to get a much needed break. Of course, Ben's love bank starts to fill pretty quickly and the woman's husband starts to pale in comparison.

This need for FC of the woman's may not sound all that "romantic" in nature - but is a top need. We wouldn't normally think of FC as an EMOTIONAL thing - would we? Well, not without the MB program we wouldn't. Because Ben is meeting this need instead of the woman's husband - she's in danger of crossing some boundaries. It's because the ball throwing, FC meeting shows care and commitment; not because the ball throwing, FC meeting is any kind of turn on.

Same thing with the DS support need a man may have. It speaks to something deeper.

Therefore, it could be that the high drive - even the physical positivity gained - speaks to something deeper or other EN's even if it *seems* just physical and not "emotional."


"The #1 reason why people give up so quickly is because they tend to look at how far they still have to go, rather than how far they've gotten."

Me, FBW(46) H, FWH (43)
M - 21 yrs & counting
D (20)
S (18)
S (16)
Surviving and Thriving since November 2010 thanks to MB!
My Recovery Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538986#Post2538986
My Original Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457141&page=1

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Letty Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: SunnyDinTX
Well, it sounds like your H is on board with the MB program, Letty and that's great!

i certainly hope so. i can see from the computer that he has been veiwing the MB videos each day, which is a good sign, but i'm feeling a little once bitten, twice shy. this is not to say that i'm not open to receiving ENs met from him, just that i'm not ready to toss plan B in the bin just yet.

I don't blame you for not wanting work associates to be privy to your personal life. Good thing you think about those types of things. Many people do not. Even if the techies don't necessarily go snooping, they basically can know everything you ever write if they so choose. Sorry work is such a downer right now. Sounds like it is short term though, so that's good.

sadly, i don't have a very good relationship with our tech, so i'm always wary of what i'm doing/typing at work. otoh, you are right about other people. i know of oe man who both surfs dating sites and chats online with those women at work. geez.

I laughed when I read your Thursday scenario! LOL

the best part about that was i was able to laugh it off! we have a plan for this weekend to help fix that up - going to hike out to a local waterfall and enjoy some outside time. no, i won't be wearig the stripper clothes!allergic to mosquitos doh2

So, where exactly do you stand at this point? Are you still in Plan A or do you feel the two of you are now in recovery? Has he met all your conditions for staying in the marriage? Have you made sure he is not in any contact with other women and has shored up his boundaries? That's very important for not having a false recovery! No more badmouthing you to his friends?

excellent question. this is at the top of my things to discuss next appt with steven harley. i feel we are in recovery, not plan a. he has met conditions, and has shored up his boundaries. we had a discussion about the badmouthing, and how i felt about it. he said it was a way of lashing out with his anger. i pointed him in the direction of "if you hadn't been doing anything you shouldn't have, you wouldn't have been angry. it appears one of his friend is teasing him over this, but he's taking it with good humour.

Is H also doing the phone consultations or just you? Have the two of you done the worksheets?

yes, we both have appointments, have done the worksheets before each apt, and discuss afterwards.

As for the SF, I understand what you are getting at. I consider myself pretty high drive as well. In fact, when H read HNHN he got a little defensive over the SF issue saying, "Why is it everyone thinks men just want sex all the time. It isn't true." I had to point out to him that it might seem lower on his need list than with other men because we have always had SF very frequently and I am usually up for it as much as he is. When you're not suffering from the lack of something you want, there really is no conscious thought of making it a priority to be met. A man in the desert cries out for water while a man surrounded by fresh water doesn't think twice about needing it.

lucky you! i have, in the past, often times felt like mrs roper! (<--showing my age) i have learned to be creative in getting him there. wink

Now, it's an interesting thought that you may be replacing other needs with SF. I am no expert and I've wondered about that too: if my high drive is my psyche trying to get what it needs in this way. But, like you, it seems my drive is as much about the physical as anything else. It just isn't something I think too much about because hey - why complain! It works for me - works for H - and we can focus on other needs since we're both happy in that dept. smile

i can see that it is a way to meet feeling close and having UA time, but i just want it, lol.

Now, if your H isn't as high drive as you are, then I would consider it an issue. Otherwise, my thoughts are just to focus on other top needs.

Something to consider: Emotional Needs as described in the MB program, in my view, have a deeper meaning than what one might normally consider in the context of the definition of "emotional." I used to think an "Emotional Affair" was an affair that was romantic and lovey-dovey and just not yet consummated. In actuality, an Emotional Affair doesn't necessarily have to be lovey-dovey. It just has to meet a deep need that someone has with or without all the flowery stuff.

For instance, you may have a woman whose husband works a lot. Lets say she really is not getting help with the kids at all. Along comes "Ben" who tosses the ball with little Johnny and Sam every afternoon - allowing the woman to get a much needed break. Of course, Ben's love bank starts to fill pretty quickly and the woman's husband starts to pale in comparison.

This need for FC of the woman's may not sound all that "romantic" in nature - but is a top need. We wouldn't normally think of FC as an EMOTIONAL thing - would we? Well, not without the MB program we wouldn't. Because Ben is meeting this need instead of the woman's husband - she's in danger of crossing some boundaries. It's because the ball throwing, FC meeting shows care and commitment; not because the ball throwing, FC meeting is any kind of turn on.

Same thing with the DS support need a man may have. It speaks to something deeper.

Therefore, it could be that the high drive - even the physical positivity gained - speaks to something deeper or other EN's even if it *seems* just physical and not "emotional."

yes, i understand what you mean here.
they are a great opportunity to talk about boundaries (tv especially! i can hardly bear to watch private practice, they are so unprofessional even without including their poor relationship skills! though it did get interesting or a sec when addison's friend asked her if she was just the kind of person with poor boundaries, and if that was why she could never retain a committed relationshp.

well, the trying time will be over in 2 days, hooray! soon it will be the school holidays and i am sooooo looking forward to them! but tonight is date night - dinner & a movie. i feel so decadent seeing 2 movies in 2 days (the other was for work).

have a good week ;-)




PS: i typed this on my h's netbook; apologies if i missed any letters out. the keyboard is HORRIBLE!


fBW 49
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DD 22
DDay 6/07
D 8/15
Letting Go
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I apologize for missing your entire post for a few days here! Sometimes I sign in from my phone and not everything pops up as clearly on there. Then, when I sign in via computer, it doesn't show as having new posts.

Anyway, I'm glad things are going so well!

I laughed at the Mrs. Roper comment, lol.

Well, now that the few days have passed and the weekend is here, you should have plenty to look forward to. smile

Good job on keeping up with the program!


"The #1 reason why people give up so quickly is because they tend to look at how far they still have to go, rather than how far they've gotten."

Me, FBW(46) H, FWH (43)
M - 21 yrs & counting
D (20)
S (18)
S (16)
Surviving and Thriving since November 2010 thanks to MB!
My Recovery Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538986#Post2538986
My Original Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457141&page=1

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Letty Offline OP
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well, here it is, another weekend. i'm afraid i'm suffering from end-of-term exhaustion and winter blues. a southern calfornia girl does not transplant well to a country where it is cold and gloomy half the year. it's been raining all week, with no end yet in sight. at least it's not freezing (yet).

appt w/SH last weekend was informative. i got smart and emailed my questions inadvance. the most important one was "are we in recovery?" he said yes. he also said it would still be work. and it is, but at least it's positive work.

H got himself a stern talking to over responsibility and whose it is. that straightened him out some. we've had some good converations this week going over our ENs and LBs, though i'm feeling a little disgruntled about a couple of those.

didn't get out to the gorgeous place last weekend due to weather, but did go bowling, which was heaps of fun. as soon as he's out of the shower, we'll be planning the 4 day weekend we have thanks to easter. our daughter has decided not to drive down due to the bad weather, so it'll be just the two of us. maybe we should get a "big pig" and consume it? (lol, the big pig is a 15lb chocolate "rabbit" - gross, eh?)

we've another appt at 5.30am tomorrow; the one before the last we can afford. i've read SAA (alone, but highlighted to give to him) and HNHN (together). i guess my Q tomorrow will be where to from here?

had better pop off. i'm feeling very melancholy today, and don't want it to throw a rod into what's going well. have the next two weeks off, so will be able to pop in more often.


fBW 49
xWH 55
DD 22
DDay 6/07
D 8/15
Letting Go
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Sorry you have the blues, Letty. It happens to me at certain times and it is not easy! H has done a good job helping me if I tell him I'm having a down day. It typically happens to me when I'm hormonal.

Good for you guys for sticking with the counseling! How did H take the stern talking to? Was SH saying H wasn't taking responsibility for past actions or in recovery or overall?

How are you handling the disgruntlement? Is this something you want to discuss? I know we've gone back and forth a little on my thread about a few things. In fact, since you are officially in recovery (YAY) perhaps you want to move your thread?

Keep working the program. Keep being open and honest.... you're doing a great job!

And I say YES to the 15 lbs of chocolate! LOL Although, funny story: we aren't allowed to eat chocolate bunnies in my house. H says it's cruel to eat the bunnies. We have to go with chocolate eggs instead. LOL (long story!)


"The #1 reason why people give up so quickly is because they tend to look at how far they still have to go, rather than how far they've gotten."

Me, FBW(46) H, FWH (43)
M - 21 yrs & counting
D (20)
S (18)
S (16)
Surviving and Thriving since November 2010 thanks to MB!
My Recovery Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538986#Post2538986
My Original Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457141&page=1

Joined: Jan 2012
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Letty Offline OP
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news here, and none of it good. instead of rehashing a very painful weekend, i'm just posting the email i sent to my mother yesterday, with some further comment below it.

>>dear mom,

i'm sorry, i wasn't awake enough to really talk. i'm sorry to tell you things are not fine at all. i have left FWS and will be filing for a separation order tomorrow. i am not currently at home; i am staying with a friend today/tonight, but moving back home tomorrow, packing up his stuff, changing the locks, and filing for a separation order from the family court.

since FWS has gotten back into photography, he has communicated inappropriately with a young woman who had modelled for him. when i told him i didn't think that was a good idea, he moved the conversation off facebook to texting on his mobile. needless to say, when i discovered this, our relationship was set back to square one. i was willing to try to work through his problems/issues/whatever, and we have just spent 5 weeks in counselling with a well-known USA doctor, at the Marriage Builders center in Minneapolis. This has been very expensive, and required us to get up at 4am to meet the time difference, but i thought it was worth it to save nearly 18 years of a relationship. however, during this time he has lied repeatedly, and also erased history from both his phone and the internet.

i cannot keep trying to do this with a chronic liar. whatever problems he has, he needs to work them out. i cannot bear the stress and agony of what has been happening between us. while i don't believe he has had a physical affair, he has been unable to fully commit to our marriage. this morning he came home from work and told me he could not meet my conditions, and that he wasn't sure our relationship could be saved.

i feel that i have done everything in my power to support this marriage and meet his emotional needs. while he has tried, he has not taken responsibility for his own actions, and has not committed to the marriage. i have been pushing a cart uphill and he has been simply following me, not doing his own bit.

i love FWS with all my heart and want to be married to him, but what more can i do?

i appreciate any support you can give us both with our marriage. our country's law calls for 2 years separation before a marriage can be dissolved; however, this is not what i want. at this stage, i am only trying to protect myself from more pain and lies. i have a little hope left that maybe this will be the wakeup call he needs. but i may be mistaken, in which case i will be devastated.

it is very hard to be alone down here with no one. i have my mobile phone with me, which accepts email and skype. i would love hearing from you. my skype name is XX<<

so...after FWH came home yesterday and told me he wasn't sure our marriage could be saved(after another big lie the night before), i handed him a letter i had written the week before after yet another lie. i then left the house and have not been in contact since. i stayed at a friend's house yesterday. she was very kind and kept me busy, as it was a holiday here.

FWH texted me "xoxoxoxxo" = "i love you" in our text code, at 8.45pm. i did not reply.

i came home this morning after i knew he'd be at work, and just went through my list. had the locks changed, packed his stuff, filed for a separation order (which the court did NOT want to do - stuff for a later post!), and wrote my final letter. oh, i also got him a PO box for service of the papers, as i have no idea where he'll go.

when i got home, there was a note on the door "xoxoxoxox." but in the living room i found his doodle pad, and in it was something he'd written (intended for me?) that said: "what i want. i am not a baby and won't be treated like one. 1. my phone. 2. to go to car stuff without you thinking i'm up to something. 3. i'm not asking to use the computer."

the good news is i've had some lovely messages of support from my family and friends. the bad news is i live 12,000 miles from anyone who loves or cares about me (though my friend from work has been wonderful).

so, plan b-ers, what comes next? i am dreading him coming home and finding the bag/letter/locks changed and what his reaction will be, but plan to be out at the doctors getting some antidepressants when he is expected to arrive home. should he suprise me by coming home early, i will simply get in my car and drive away as he's coming down the stairs from the garage (my car is parked at the other end of our property). i have an appt w/our lawyer tomorrow to talk through our business/financial commitments and work out a cash flow system for now (he is enjoying, apparently, a 5 day weekend - office closed today). the lawyer has had a head's up from me in the past about our troubled marriage, and that i was giving FWH some time to pull his head out of his [censored], but that i would possibly need to see him in the near future. he was also the one who helped me locate a polygrapher in this country (nearly impossible!).

i have also called our DD and told her everything. i didn't plan on that until she came home for a visit later this week, so it could be in person, but he had texted her last night asking "have you heard from your mother today?" so she texted me and asked what the heck was going on.

i guess my Qs are: what is the worst part of being in plan b and how can i combat it? today i have been busy, but i dread tonight. i dread being alone in our home. but mostly i dread him saying that he can't do this, he can't commit, he won't change, and we're done. however, i am ready to be strong and not take him back on promises and lies. i am dark. my IM is my lawyer. i know that when i finally get 5 minutes to be alone with my brain i will be devastated.

this is long enough. cheers everyone.


fBW 49
xWH 55
DD 22
DDay 6/07
D 8/15
Letting Go
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