I have begun to realize how much my wife has suffered because of her one month affair. She is truly the most remorseful WS I've seen on these sites and it had eaten away at her self -image to the point of suicidal thoughts. She is getting much better, every day and I credit my fulfilling her EN's for that, but it is a hard road for her. Her parents and siblings are very fundamentalist (so-called) Christians, and even though I have forgiven her , they cannot or will not, and refuse contact with her, which doesn't help even a little bit. My daughters, friends, and my family have been most supportive of her, and without that support group we wouldn't be nearly as far along with our recovery as we are. How many other BS'S have experienced the same issues? When their WS is so remorseful that it actully has set back recovery?

That's a good question. One I will have to think about. My initial thought was it was me holding us back, but I'm not so sure on further reflection.

I had a similar problem with my inlaws. They remained supportive of her and condemning of me and it has hindered us in minor ways.

CV

CV, until this happened, she and her dad were very close, she was a "daddy's girl". He will not speak to her at all. It makes it much harder for her to have a positive self-image with this hanging over her head.

Excellent subject. It's me, myself, and I who has slowed our recovery. She has been steadfast in not addressing any part of it which has drawn out anger in me but probably is for the best.

She has worked on self worth issues and personal improvement.

Basically anyone who is in the know doesn't speak of it almost like it never happened. I asked if her parents brought it up last month when we visited them in any way: no.

So ignorance has been bliss for her.

For me, not as bliss, but that's another thread.

MM, in my thread, I noted that I actually had to put my recovery on hold while we worked on my FWW.

Her problem was not familial condemnation, but personal (which I suppose is less encompassing, but more intense, less "avoidable" but more addressable, than your FWW's issues). I would submit, however, that the calumny heaped on her by her judgemental family is actually working on her private self-doubts and shame. (If you or I were castigated for being treasonous to our country, we would not invest a lot in berating ourselves for that foolishness, but write off the critic as a lunatic. Our FWWs had no such easy way out.)

It got so bad that I had to exact a promise from her that she would not do anything self-destructive, reminding her of the devastation such actions would precipitate on our children, who remained her treasures.

For us in came down to a sense of proportion and weighting. Thirty-seven years of devotion, fidelity, comradeship, and affection could not be erased by a handful of days of misguided straying.

I reminded her intentionally, and pervasively, of the good things we had done together and she had done for me and others. We reminisced about vacations, about how we started and raised a family, about our connections to friends and colleagues.

We made mistakes. We both corresponded on the "purple" infidelity site and the "BW Henhouse" chewed her up and spit her out when she tried to conduct a rational discussion of what failures on both sides lead to the temptations she yielded to.

There was no silver bullet. It was more of an ongoing support and re-validation of her worth. It was not rapid. I'd say six-to-eight months passed before she ceased having crying jags (usually in the shower, which she thought I did not know about). But what worked were two consistent messages, which I discovered the first week: "You are a GOOD person that did a HORRIBLE thing," and "I'd rather go through this with YOU than live a trouble-free life with any other woman."

MM,

I feel I could've written the same post NG did. One difference: I feel my W is still in the 'rebuild' phase, but improving daily.

And the 2 consistent messages NG wrote about....same thing here, word-for-word...

Thanks.

This is heartbreaking MM. Makes me want to shake her parents. Unfortunately it is not that uncommon for parents to be judgmental of their grown children way past what is appropriate. I have a good friend who got pregnant as a late teen and had a baby out of wedlock. She was remorseful, broke off the relationship with the user boyfriend and that baby is now a fine 14 year old boy. She has married a fine man and they have another child together. And yet my friend's father has never viewed her the same since. He is hardnosed to the point that he can't forgive! He does speak to her...in fact he let my friend remain at home with the out of wedlock child until she married 3 years later...so it is not as bad as your wife's situation. But it breaks my heart in both cases.

One thing we see commonly is a wayward spouse who makes lots of noise about their sorrow and repentance but won't do the work required for recovery. A lot of people, of both genders, feel like the way to recovery is to be very emphatic and emotional about how sorry they are and how terrible it was that they did this, and how it will never happen again, etc. None of that will sustain the marriage if both husband and wife, wayward and betrayed, do not start protecting each other and meeting each other's intimate emotional needs.

Dwelling on mistakes of the past is one of Dr. Harley's enemies of good conversation, and intimate conversation is one of the most important emotional needs. (It's even important for men who don't rank it highly. )

This is so absolutely true and very astute of you to say, Markos. What alleviates guilt [to a great degree] is REDEEMING ONESELF. That means making AMENDS to one's victims and changing the bad behavior. Saying sorry over and over again without supporting actions and crying crocodile tears will not alleviate guilt. It's a great attention getter, but does very little to solve the problem!

A person who has commmitted a crime should feel guilty. They can do one of two things with that guilt: a) try to compartmentalize it away or b) take action steps to make up for one's crime, ie: make amends and change bad behavior.

That will lessen the guilt by redeeming that person. However, a person who does nothing expect cry the blues will not lessen their guilt.

My guilt for my own bad behavior propelled me into action. I made amends, changed my behavior and learned to EMBRACE the guilt as my conscience's warning system. That warning system keeps me from committing FUTURE CRIMES. That is a good thing, not a bad thing.

What that person should not do is engage in SELF PITY. Self pity is a distraction from taking appropriate steps to redemption. Playing the drama queen will not solve the problem.

I find this to be not very nice. Your point could have been made without taking a potshot at others...others who are in extreme pain at that.

What that person should not do is engage in SELF PITY. Self pity is a distraction from taking appropriate steps to redemption.

It would seem that self-loathing (exacerbated by her parents' expressed attitudes) is the problem MM raises here, as it was in our case. That is not the same as self-pity. In some ways they are almost diametrically opposed.

Self pity would stem from an internalization of "worth" not recognized or unfairly stigmatized. "Why are (they, events, fate) doing this to me? I do not deserve this!"

Self loathing is based on a degraded opinion of self, and accepts whatever calumny is presented. MM did not state that his FWW was resentful or actively defensive toward the parents' opinions.

The point of "redeeming oneself" is key. The variation is the amount of "redemptive" behaviour that the individual FWW would require of herself, and how accepting she would be of its value.

What turned the trick in our case was demonstrating and reinforcing the importance of the huge balance of "redemptive behaviours" stocked away prior to the crisis. Rebuilding on that foundation was effective.

Self pity is evidenced when a WS carries on about her poor lot in life. Said lot in life being a direct result of her bad behavior. I don't know if that is what MM's wife is doing, but it is very typical behavior. When I did this early in my AA meetings, it was quickly nipped in the bud.



For me, touting my former "good behaviors" was not redemptive because they were part and parcel of the very person who committed those crimes. It was empty praise. Those good parts did not protect me in the past and they obviously wouldn't protect me in the future. It went like this: "I was just a good person who did bad things!" I liked to parrot that rationalization and tried to make it work, but it never passed the smell test because I always came back to this simple truth: that was the person who committed those crimes. Just didn't work for me because the truth is that I was a bad person. The truth is the truth. If a person is not defined by their behavior then by WHAT? You will know them by their fruits and my fruits were BAD.

What did work was making DRAMATIC CHANGES that resulted in my becoming a REAL good person that I could esteem. Not just little cobbled together bits and pieces that in truth did not constitute a good person. Making amends to my victims, changing my behavior in a dramatic and meaningful way, practicing self control and decency, and demonstrating [to myself and others] responsible behavior in the present. After a few years of this, I felt better about myself.

That being said, I STILL have guilt about my crimes. It is not disabling, it is therapeutic in the sense that it prevents me from committing more crimes. I EMBRACE that guilt and consider it a gift from God that has protective qualities in my life.

Put another way, NG. I had to accept and admit that I was a BAD PERSON in order to change my behavior and accept that I was a GOOD PERSON. That admission was the first step towards redemption. Honesty is the first step.

This is very good, NG, and something I have tried to do since almost immediately after D-day. In my wife's case, familial condemnation and her self-image are interconnected. Pre affair, she was as rigid in her condemnation of EMA's as her parents are towards her affair. Also, pre-affair, she had a huge support network of friends and family to help her with problems, but the key to that network, the linchpin (so to speak) , was me, her husband. When my job went south and I began to have to travel a lot and was home rarely and for short periods, she felt she had lost me, the key to her happiness. Since I wasn't around to and since whenever I WAS around , I was exhausted and bitter about my work situation , she didn't have the knowledge of where to turn. What SHOULD have been OUR issues, became HER issues (lonliness, sense of abandonment, lack of communication) and MY issues (work stress, mental and physical exhaustion, and bitterness). Because we both saw the issues differently , we ceased to meet each others EN's. Because of her rigid upbringing, her sense of self-loathing was immense.

The issue of wayward guilt was covered on the radio show last week when they interviewed the recovered couple, John and Julie. Joyce asked Julie if she had guilt:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3691

"People have a problem with guilt when they haven't really turned the corner." Dr Harley

Yes NG's post was excellent.

Your point above (bolded) is so true. With my friend, she leans heavily on her dh and they have a wonderful relationship....if she lost that relationship I can easily see her slipping into depression and self-loathing. She struggles with depression anyway. It is hard to turn off those tapes of parental condemnation. Hopefully she can get to the point that she can realize that their harsh treatment of her is indicative of THEIR character not hers. And hopefully she can accept the fact that sometimes we just don't get the parents that we want/need/deserve.

this is absolutely right, NG. My wife has accepted an ENORMOUS amount of humiliation and degradation, without one word of defense, or one excuse. Once, right after D-day, she said that she couldn't understand how I could even look at her, because she was human garbage! I can't imagine feeling that way about myself. She has been completely submissive to my wishes, and has made my healing her main goal, to such an extent that she sometimes neglects her own. This is why I am such a proponent of radical honesty and the POJA, and insist on absolute strick adherence to them .

My wife had no self pity.

I had pity on her.

I couldnt imagine that she could be so disinclined to face the real world outside of OM fantasy world that she would stay in a situation she clearly did not enjoy towards the end. As he was her "employer" she enjoyed a part time job that allowed her summers off and only worked a few hours a day. Sure, it didnt pay as much as we needed her to earn but it gave her the ability to be with her kids after school and during the summers. To keep this going, she gave OM affection and companionship.

I believe her regret. I pitied her that should would allow herself to be used in such of way to maintain this lifestyle. I pitied her that in her bizarro world this made sense to her. I pitied her that she let a man control her.

I blame me for not seeing it.

I have said before the woman I call my wife is someone different after dday. Someone with self worth, confidence, and soley focused on us. Three things I find incredibly attractive in a woman.

Ive once asked her how she feels around my mother and others in my family and some friends who know, she said "I hold my head up high and dont let anything distract from my goals. I have 3 things on my mind at all times, my kids, my husband, and our growth together. Nothing else matters. Letting my mistake get me down and thus lose that focus is unacceptible. I will never do anything that will be unacceptible. The fact that you have given me this chance will be something I spend forever thanking you for."

Getting caught and ending her A was something she apparently wanted and more importantly, needed. As the book says an affair is similar any other addiction. Mother's day last year she had an intervention. She took the opportunity and has ran with it.

MM,

From time to time my W will still say to me:

"I don't know why you are so kind to me when I don't deserve it. Thank you for being gentle, a gentle man."

At times I am still putting my own healing on the back burner in order to help her resurrect herself...her 'new' self.

thanks.

"I was just a good person who did bad things!" I liked to parrot that rationalization and tried to make it work, but it never passed the smell test because I always came back to this simple truth: that was the person who committed those crimes. Just didn't work for me because the truth is that I was a bad person. The truth is the truth. If a person is not defined by their behavior then by WHAT? You will know them by their fruits and my fruits were BAD.

Well, Mel, I obviously cannot speak to your qualities in your pre-MB life. (Although given your current soothing, warm-hearted, and easily forgiving nature, it would be difficult to imagine your being anything but a Texas angel from birth!)

But the existence of "good person she was" (what I fought to bring back to my bride during her recovery) FAR preceded the period (not firmly fixed, but let's say twelve months leading to d-night), and FAR exceeded in duration (those same twelve months) when her marital compass went "clunk"!

I never wasted my time arguing her supposed "goodness" during the time of falling in love with OM. I am (surprisingly!) not that altruistic. I worked to get her back to thinking of herself in the prior manifestation, and stop fixating on the dark days.

So, "Yes" we can agree that doing evil things defines and identifies an evil person. My goal was to help re-establish the "new" one more on the lines of the "initial" one IN HER MIND!

MM, your call: Can she get back mostly, or entirely, on her own efforts? If not, dude, sorry to say you're gonna have to strap up and work that problem too.