|
|
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,521
Member
|
Member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,521 |
MM,
I can say in all honesty NG and others gave me similar advice -- or atleast pointed out the cruel irony ogf the situation: that it was on ME to help my WW, even in my crumpled, betrayed state, in hopes for a greater good later (after the MB plan had a chance to 'take hold').
And you know, when I think about it, I think they were right, for now, even though she has bad days in recovery, my W will bend over backward to get me straight or out of my funk or get all four wheels on the MB track if one slips...
My point is, once the fog clears, I think it becomes clear to the WS just how much the BS sacrificed, worked, perserved out of love, care, and protection for our (F)WS, and they tend to resolute in THEIR commitment to recover.
Hope that made sense...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1 |
I never wasted my time arguing her supposed "goodness" during the time of falling in love with OM. I am (surprisingly!) not that altruistic. I worked to get her back to thinking of herself in the prior manifestation, and stop fixating on the dark days. Put that way, it makes sense. It defies logic to try and paint a person who commits adultery as a "good person." They were not. But to your point, she may well have been a good person BEFORE she committed adultery and successfully redeemed herself afterwards. (Although given your current soothing, warm-hearted, and easily forgiving nature, it would be difficult to imagine your being anything but a Texas angel from birth!) Thank you for that!! Yes, I am very forgiving because much was forgiven ME.  However, I don't believe in unwarranted, cheap forgiveness. And yes, I was a Texas angel by birth! ![[Linked Image from cheesebuerger.de]](http://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/teufel/a018.gif)
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,495
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,495 |
CV, until this happened, she and her dad were very close, she was a "daddy's girl". He will not speak to her at all. It makes it much harder for her to have a positive self-image with this hanging over her head. Understood. I think in retrospect, for us, it was both of us, in different ways, at different times holding back our recovery. This will be a hurdle to overcome. There is an EN that she is letting her dad fill (or had previously filled) that you will need to identify and work to fill. Maybe admiration? CV
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,495
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,495 |
MM, in my thread, I noted that I actually had to put my recovery on hold while we worked on my FWW.
Her problem was not familial condemnation, but personal (which I suppose is less encompassing, but more intense, less "avoidable" but more addressable, than your FWW's issues). I would submit, however, that the calumny heaped on her by her judgemental family is actually working on her private self-doubts and shame. (If you or I were castigated for being treasonous to our country, we would not invest a lot in berating ourselves for that foolishness, but write off the critic as a lunatic. Our FWWs had no such easy way out.)
It got so bad that I had to exact a promise from her that she would not do anything self-destructive, reminding her of the devastation such actions would precipitate on our children, who remained her treasures.
For us in came down to a sense of proportion and weighting. Thirty-seven years of devotion, fidelity, comradeship, and affection could not be erased by a handful of days of misguided straying.
I reminded her intentionally, and pervasively, of the good things we had done together and she had done for me and others. We reminisced about vacations, about how we started and raised a family, about our connections to friends and colleagues.
We made mistakes. We both corresponded on the "purple" infidelity site and the "BW Henhouse" chewed her up and spit her out when she tried to conduct a rational discussion of what failures on both sides lead to the temptations she yielded to.
There was no silver bullet. It was more of an ongoing support and re-validation of her worth. It was not rapid. I'd say six-to-eight months passed before she ceased having crying jags (usually in the shower, which she thought I did not know about). But what worked were two consistent messages, which I discovered the first week: "You are a GOOD person that did a HORRIBLE thing," and "I'd rather go through this with YOU than live a trouble-free life with any other woman." Some of the details are different, but we essentially did this too.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,521
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,521 |
Gents,
Admiration/attention: that was it for my W, too. Once 'daddy' cut her off a few years back, things began to crumble...I was in my own lost world, and that was an EN I was not meeting. Then the affair...really a viscious cycle...getting admir/att. -- leading to sex -- in order to hold onto the admir/att.
Thanks.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 400
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 400 |
This is very good, NG, and something I have tried to do since almost immediately after D-day. In my wife's case, familial condemnation and her self-image are interconnected. Pre affair, she was as rigid in her condemnation of EMA's as her parents are towards her affair. Also, pre-affair, she had a huge support network of friends and family to help her with problems, but the key to that network, the linchpin (so to speak) , was me, her husband. When my job went south and I began to have to travel a lot and was home rarely and for short periods, she felt she had lost me, the key to her happiness. Since I wasn't around to and since whenever I WAS around , I was exhausted and bitter about my work situation , she didn't have the knowledge of where to turn. What SHOULD have been OUR issues, became HER issues (lonliness, sense of abandonment, lack of communication) and MY issues (work stress, mental and physical exhaustion, and bitterness). Because we both saw the issues differently , we ceased to meet each others EN's. Because of her rigid upbringing, her sense of self-loathing was immense. Yes NG's post was excellent. Your point above (bolded) is so true. With my friend, she leans heavily on her dh and they have a wonderful relationship....if she lost that relationship I can easily see her slipping into depression and self-loathing. She struggles with depression anyway. It is hard to turn off those tapes of parental condemnation. Hopefully she can get to the point that she can realize that their harsh treatment of her is indicative of THEIR character not hers. And hopefully she can accept the fact that sometimes we just don't get the parents that we want/need/deserve. Smiling Woman, this is something, I'm working on, but it is difficult to get her to see that her dad is anything but right.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,352
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,352 |
My wife has accepted an ENORMOUS amount of humiliation and degradation, without one word of defense, or one excuse...I can't imagine feeling that way about myself.
Well, that isn't surprising. You have not done anything like she did. Sadly, your FWW could not, a priori, imagine what it would feel like, either, as she would likely have made more careful choices to avoid the result she deals with now.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 400
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 400 |
"I was just a good person who did bad things!" I liked to parrot that rationalization and tried to make it work, but it never passed the smell test because I always came back to this simple truth: that was the person who committed those crimes. Just didn't work for me because the truth is that I was a bad person. The truth is the truth. If a person is not defined by their behavior then by WHAT? You will know them by their fruits and my fruits were BAD.
Well, Mel, I obviously cannot speak to your qualities in your pre-MB life. (Although given your current soothing, warm-hearted, and easily forgiving nature, it would be difficult to imagine your being anything but a Texas angel from birth!)
But the existence of "good person she was" (what I fought to bring back to my bride during her recovery) FAR preceded the period (not firmly fixed, but let's say twelve months leading to d-night), and FAR exceeded in duration (those same twelve months) when her marital compass went "clunk"!
I never wasted my time arguing her supposed "goodness" during the time of falling in love with OM. I am (surprisingly!) not that altruistic. I worked to get her back to thinking of herself in the prior manifestation, and stop fixating on the dark days.
So, "Yes" we can agree that doing evil things defines and identifies an evil person. My goal was to help re-establish the "new" one more on the lines of the "initial" one IN HER MIND!
MM, your call: Can she get back mostly, or entirely, on her own efforts? If not, dude, sorry to say you're gonna have to strap up and work that problem too. NG, my efforts have been mostly to give her the support, love and understanding to handle this issue herself. You know from my posts that most of what I've already done was , at least in part, to help her regain a positive self-image. She is getting better all of the time, but it is so hard to see her suffer, when something triggers her depression and shame. I also have used the POJA to good effect, by showing her that this is OUR problem and not just HER problem, so that what we do , we both can get behind with pride and enthusiasm.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 400
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 400 |
My wife has accepted an ENORMOUS amount of humiliation and degradation, without one word of defense, or one excuse...I can't imagine feeling that way about myself.
Well, that isn't surprising. You have not done anything like she did. Sadly, your FWW could not, a priori, imagine what it would feel like, either, as she would likely have made more careful choices to avoid the result she deals with now. This is actually one of the best tools we have for recovery. I am constantly giveing her "attagirls", for all she has done, so far, and she really, really , really appreciates it, and says it helps her more than about anything to get praise from me.
Last edited by mirrormirror; 03/20/12 02:18 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 400
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 400 |
CV, until this happened, she and her dad were very close, she was a "daddy's girl". He will not speak to her at all. It makes it much harder for her to have a positive self-image with this hanging over her head. Understood. I think in retrospect, for us, it was both of us, in different ways, at different times holding back our recovery. This will be a hurdle to overcome. There is an EN that she is letting her dad fill (or had previously filled) that you will need to identify and work to fill. Maybe admiration? CV This is so true. I have been invested with God-like powers, and I'm always having to say that I'm a human being and have f**ked-up, as well. Being Adored probably had it's positive uses, right after the affair, but now I'm much happier being Good ole' MM, with a wonderful new wife. I know, she looks a lot like the old one, but she is much wiser and more honest than the old version. LOL
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,352
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,352 |
..she really, really , really appreciates it, and says it helps her more than about anything to get praise from me.Good! Increase the dosage, Doctor! Together, find ways that she can (legitimately) feel good about her efforts. (Did I ever mention belly dancing.....?) As for "Ma and Pa Brimstone" - not a lot you're going to achieve directly with them. Keep modelling (displaying) your new relationship, ensuring that they are aware that the schism will be between them and your family, not just them and your FWW. ![[Linked Image from planetsmilies.net]](http://planetsmilies.net/vicious-smiley-1761.gif) Brimstone? NG, I'm offended by your generalization.
You could have made your point without being nasty!What, another would-be moderator?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 400
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 400 |
I have made it clear that she is my wife and I have forgiven her and their opinions are not wanted or needed, and if she isn't welcome then neither are her children. My daughters are on board with this, BTW. They and their mother's relationship has improved 100% since we moved. And "ahem", we HAVE been doing some new things , in the romance and sex department, that have made her feel like a Desert Princess, and me like a Sheik. LMAO!!!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 400
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 400 |
[
Self pity would stem from an internalization of "worth" not recognized or unfairly stigmatized. "Why are (they, events, fate) doing this to me? I do not deserve this!" Self pity is evidenced when a WS carries on about her poor lot in life. Said lot in life being a direct result of her bad behavior. I don't know if that is what MM's wife is doing, but it is very typical behavior. When I did this early in my AA meetings, it was quickly nipped in the bud. Self loathing is based on a degraded opinion of self, and accepts whatever calumny is presented. MM did not state that his FWW was resentful or actively defensive toward the parents' opinions.
The point of "redeeming oneself" is key. The variation is the amount of "redemptive" behaviour that the individual FWW would require of herself, and how accepting she would be of its value. For me, touting my former "good behaviors" was not redemptive because they were part and parcel of the very person who committed those crimes. It was empty praise. Those good parts did not protect me in the past and they obviously wouldn't protect me in the future. It went like this: "I was just a good person who did bad things!" I liked to parrot that rationalization and tried to make it work, but it never passed the smell test because I always came back to this simple truth: that was the person who committed those crimes. Just didn't work for me because the truth is that I was a bad person. The truth is the truth. If a person is not defined by their behavior then by WHAT? You will know them by their fruits and my fruits were BAD. What did work was making DRAMATIC CHANGES that resulted in my becoming a REAL good person that I could esteem. Not just little cobbled together bits and pieces that in truth did not constitute a good person. Making amends to my victims, changing my behavior in a dramatic and meaningful way, practicing self control and decency, and demonstrating [to myself and others] responsible behavior in the present. After a few years of this, I felt better about myself. That being said, I STILL have guilt about my crimes. It is not disabling, it is therapeutic in the sense that it prevents me from committing more crimes. I EMBRACE that guilt and consider it a gift from God that has protective qualities in my life. Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner, ML, but this is exactly how my wife feels. She has become very proactive. She told me the other night, that she doesn't work with "intentions", she doesn't "intend" to do this or that, she IS doing this or that. The difference is huge. Her remorse is a motivating factor for her.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,025
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,025 |
Your wife has the right attitude. No try...just do. Her feelings will follow her actions. Just focus on staying active. Active learning and active implementing the MB Plans.
Completely unintentionally, my wife beat her depression using MB. She used the "feelings follow actions" behaviorist model to literally overcome depression. No more trying different meds. No more doctors and counselors (talk therapy). When she feels herself slipping she just focuses on what she needs to do and gets going. After a busy day, week, month who's got time to be depressed (of course, she's got a much more involved better husband too...which helps)
Bloom where you are planted.
Mr. Wondering
p.s. - I know the subject of your friend is over and I hope no one takes my comments as license to continue the conversation but I didn't get the time to throw in my two cents last week and just wanted to point out two things. 1. you can do whatever you want about your longtime opposite sex friend, all MB/Harley is basically saying is that his professional experience and studies have led him to conclude that if you want a great marriage/recovery you should model the behavior of the most successfully married couples and such couples don't have opposite sex friends ...particularly ones they've EVER had any intimate relations with....as "friends" of any kind. 2. I gave up a long time opposite sex friendship that I hadn't even been intimate with in my situation though I would have likely been as resistant as you at the outset (as a BH why do I have to give up friends type attitude). Later on...my wife wasn't enthusiastic about such friend so I just let the friendship fade away without fanfare. When you both really sit down and implement these plans to your entire lives and prioritize your marriage over everything and everyone else...these decisions become easy and necessary. I'm not encouraging or supporting you breaking the MB rules and don't suggest you post about it either but were you and your wife to POJA a relationship with this woman (and I don't suggest you do) discussing and establishing boundaries yourself (and applying these MB rules and extra-ordinary precautions to yourself to the extent you can being perhaps creative) also goes a long way towards rebuilding your wife's self-esteem to and building her love-bank TOWARDS you as the great husband. You see all efforts you make which prioritize and protect your marriage as well as by your actions and concerns demonstrate that you don't believe yourself to be immune to being a wayward spouse yourself (you're human and capable of making the same mistake she made...and thus, you don't think you are better than her). As Marcos, I believe, stated....statistically betrayed spouses are the most likely spouse to NEXT have an affair. Think how easy the justifications and rationalizations would be. The slippery slope is practically a vertical slide into waywardism and I've seen friends here and in real life take that route and it's always just as nasty and destructive as the initial affair.
The most vulnerable persons are those that presume they are invulnerable...they won't see it coming, they won't take even the most basic precautions and they won't plan WITH THEIR SPOUSE how they should avoid it BEFORE/WHILE it starts happening to them.
Anyway...I hope bringing that up wasn't and isn't a problem. My intentions are to help you AND your wife.
FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered
"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,025
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,025 |
oooppps.
Last edited by MrWondering; 03/21/12 10:57 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1 |
[]Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner, ML, but this is exactly how my wife feels. She has become very proactive. She told me the other night, that she doesn't work with "intentions", she doesn't "intend" to do this or that, she IS doing this or that. The difference is huge. Her remorse is a motivating factor for her. MM, I hope she will listen to that radio clip I posted above because she might get some relief from hearing it. She is doing all the right things by focusing on changing herself. Her attitude is that of someone who is dead serious and she will see the results. Bring the body and the mind will follow. Your wife sounds like a real dear and I admire her hard work.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 400
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 400 |
Your wife has the right attitude. No try...just do. Her feelings will follow her actions. Just focus on staying active. Active learning and active implementing the MB Plans.
Completely unintentionally, my wife beat her depression using MB. She used the "feelings follow actions" behaviorist model to literally overcome depression. No more trying different meds. No more doctors and counselors (talk therapy). When she feels herself slipping she just focuses on what she needs to do and gets going. After a busy day, week, month who's got time to be depressed (of course, she's got a much more involved better husband too...which helps)
Bloom where you are planted.
Mr. Wondering
p.s. - I know the subject of your friend is over and I hope no one takes my comments as license to continue the conversation but I didn't get the time to throw in my two cents last week and just wanted to point out two things. 1. you can do whatever you want about your longtime opposite sex friend, all MB/Harley is basically saying is that his professional experience and studies have led him to conclude that if you want a great marriage/recovery you should model the behavior of the most successfully married couples and such couples don't have opposite sex friends ...particularly ones they've EVER had any intimate relations with....as "friends" of any kind. 2. I gave up a long time opposite sex friendship that I hadn't even been intimate with in my situation though I would have likely been as resistant as you at the outset (as a BH why do I have to give up friends type attitude). Later on...my wife wasn't enthusiastic about such friend so I just let the friendship fade away without fanfare. When you both really sit down and implement these plans to your entire lives and prioritize your marriage over everything and everyone else...these decisions become easy and necessary. I'm not encouraging or supporting you breaking the MB rules and don't suggest you post about it either but were you and your wife to POJA a relationship with this woman (and I don't suggest you do) discussing and establishing boundaries yourself (and applying these MB rules and extra-ordinary precautions to yourself to the extent you can being perhaps creative) also goes a long way towards rebuilding your wife's self-esteem to and building her love-bank TOWARDS you as the great husband. You see all efforts you make which prioritize and protect your marriage as well as by your actions and concerns demonstrate that you don't believe yourself to be immune to being a wayward spouse yourself (you're human and capable of making the same mistake she made...and thus, you don't think you are better than her). As Marcos, I believe, stated....statistically betrayed spouses are the most likely spouse to NEXT have an affair. Think how easy the justifications and rationalizations would be. The slippery slope is practically a vertical slide into waywardism and I've seen friends here and in real life take that route and it's always just as nasty and destructive as the initial affair.
The most vulnerable persons are those that presume they are invulnerable...they won't see it coming, they won't take even the most basic precautions and they won't plan WITH THEIR SPOUSE how they should avoid it BEFORE/WHILE it starts happening to them.
Anyway...I hope bringing that up wasn't and isn't a problem. My intentions are to help you AND your wife. Mr. Wondering, your comments have always been thoughtful and practical, and I, of course, don't mind you bringing up this issue, but you must also realize that I'm reluctant to open this topic again.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 400
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 400 |
[]Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner, ML, but this is exactly how my wife feels. She has become very proactive. She told me the other night, that she doesn't work with "intentions", she doesn't "intend" to do this or that, she IS doing this or that. The difference is huge. Her remorse is a motivating factor for her. MM, I hope she will listen to that radio clip I posted above because she might get some relief from hearing it. She is doing all the right things by focusing on changing herself. Her attitude is that of someone who is dead serious and she will see the results. Bring the body and the mind will follow. Your wife sounds like a real dear and I admire her hard work. No more than I do, ML. My wife has never belonged to me as completely as she does now, and I to her.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,146
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,146 |
My wife has never belonged to me as completely as she does now, and I to her. This is exactly what should happen as we allow our spouse to exclusively meet our EN's. Extraordinary Care + Extraordinary Protection = Extraordinary Marriage.
Recovery began 10/07;
Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 25
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 25 |
Reposting to SAA forum. Thanks
Last edited by Skidooman; 03/24/12 12:10 PM.
BH 37(ME)
FWW 37 2 PA's
Married 9 years, together 10.
DS 5
DD 3
D-Day 11/04/11
|
|
|
Moderated by Ariel, BerlinMB, Denali, Fordude, IrishGreen, MBeliever, MBsurvivor, MBSync, McLovin, Mizar, PhoenixMB, Toujours
|
1 members (1 invisible),
328
guests, and
42
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
