I'm not sure how to approach this - I guess I just want to get some feedback from others who have recently gone through the D process or are even still in the process.

My story, the Reader's Digest condensed version;

I am a vet of the SAA forum. My now exW had an EA, and after many months of trying to recover, we ended up divorcing. We were married for 21 years, most of them happy, with the usual issues faced by all couples. We have two fantastic children, DD20 and DS17. We were both responsible for the marriage weakening to the point where she was more unhappy than I, and she found a 'friend' on Facebook to fill some of her ENs. This POSOM pursued my ex, and she fell for the attention he was giving her.

I found MB shortly after discovering the EA, tried to use the concepts to save the marriage, but we failed. She just never got out of the fog, and couldn't/wouldn't take any steps to make me feel 'safe' in our relationship by establishing EPs and boundaries to ensure another EA wouldn't take place. In fact, she continued to communicate with POSOM and establish 'friendships' with OM even though I made it clear how much it hurt me and was destroying our marriage.

Once I was convinced the marriage was over - my LB was empty and I just couldn't take it anymore - I moved out of the house and filed for divorce in May of 2011. The D process was ugly, but it's over.

Once I moved out and filed, I went to Plan B and the communication with WW stopped with the exception of anything to do with our kids. I HAD to take this step - seeing her and talking to her still hurt a lot. Also, we really couldn't communicate much without it turning into an argument, and I was way too burned out to deal with that. After an initial stage of trying to work out a property settlement ourselves, even that communication had to stop and everything went through our attorneys.

Now that it's over and we are moving on with our lives, I am starting to wonder if my 'going dark' during the divorce process has hurt my relationship with my kids, especially my son who lives with his mom. I rarely see him, and when I try to arrange for us to get together he is either busy or just doesn't respond. It hurts. We get along great when we do get together and I never, ever bad-mouth his mom, but I just sense that he's confused by my refusal to be 'friends' with my ex. It makes me wonder if I shouldn't try to establish some sort of 'relationship' with her for the sake of the kids.

I should be clear - both kids know what happened. They know about the EA; they know who POSOM is (they even met him); and they both understand why I decided to end the M. However, I think they both have bought into WW's concept of a 'friendly' divorce, and would prefer that the four of us all get along. They saw their grandparents on WW's side live that way. They were divorced for many years, neither ever re-married, and got along as 'friends' for all the years my kids knew them. They have both passed away, but I think the way they lived gave the kids an idea that divorced couples could, and should, stay friends.

Maybe this is just post-divorce blues, but I'm really struggling with what kind of relationship - if any - I should have with exWW. I'm still struggling with being bitter about the whole thing. As far as I'm concerned, exWW, POSOM, and an enabling ex sister-in-law destroyed my family. But I certainly don't hate my ex - I just feel bad that she changed so much and became someone I couldn't love anymore. Is it even possible to be 'friends' again? I will always have a place in my heart for who she was when we were happy together, before she became a stranger who I could never love.

Linus

Hey Linus!

I remember you from when we were both living on SAA together, pretty much two years ago.

I can't offer any great words of wisdom other than to share my experiences and what works for me. A lot of it may not relate directly because my children are much younger than yours, 11 and 7 now.

Anyway, not wanting to separate from them or get them caught in the crossfire is why I never went to plan "B". My WW refused to leave the house and I dang sure wasn't going to move out and away from my boys. So we managed to live under the same roof and keep things as normal as possible for them throughout the divorce process and until it was finalized.

It totally sucks if your son feels alienated by your plan B. Totally not your fault, but one of the realities in the fallout of divorce is that there is collateral damage.

Becoming all chummy with your ex-wife will not change that now. All you can do is continue to make the effort and take every opportunity you can to be with your son. Show up to all his activities and be as supportive as you can, I promise he will notice. Plan activities and outings with him well in advance so there isn't the opportunity to not call you back or be too busy.

For me, I have forgiven my ex-wife and I totally get that she was very far into emotional withdrawal for years before the affair (One thing I hate about SAA forum, sometimes some of the fog talk is actually true). So I'm not going to forever vilify her for what she did. We get along fine now and we cooperate very well in scheduling our days with the boys and in making decisions on their future. I can be in the same room with her and even coexist quite peacefully when we are both present at the kids activities.

But, neither considers ourselves friends. There is very little conversation outside of topics that concern the kids. There are no family outings, Sunday dinners, or -shudder-, shared vacations. (My brother has done this and I can't understand it). I try to follow the idea of parallel parenting rather than cooperative parenting. I have seen a time or two when we get a little too chatty or an exchange runs too long and the boy's start to get a little hope in their eyes...That is unfair and needs to be avoided at all costs.

My recommendation is to have a business-like relationship with your ex-wife. Cordial, polite, even cooperative and respectful, but not necessarily friendly.

Take care and you will adjust and be happy if you allow yourself.

I attribute your son's detachment as a natural part of being a teenager. I see this all the time with teenagers. My own son detached from me when he was a teenager [age 17] living with his cheater father and it was just a normal phase. We are now as close as ever and talk on the phone every day! Teenagers have no desire to be around a boring parent. They want to be with their friends. So I wouldn't worry about that. Being "friends" with his mother would not change that but it would probably cause you great stress and maybe even depression.

Most people are naturally triggered in a very bad way by being around the ex-spouse.

So don't worry about maintaining a relationship with your XW. It won't hurt your kids if you don't and it will probably be better for them if you don't because it only causes you stress. Having a stressed out, depressed parent does not benefit your kids.

In the case of my XH, I stayed in touch with him for a few years and just stayed angry and bitter for years. I went into Plan B a few years back and I have to tell you it has been pure bliss. I no longer feel anger or bitterness with him out of my life.

My suggestion to you would be to continue to be there for your son and let him be a teenager. He will come back to you when he grows up a bit. And DON'T make "friends" with your XW. That will only bring back your anger and bitterness. And it certainly won't help your relationship with your son!

My uncle who lives down in FL who I only speak to once or twice a year called me the other day to ask me how things were going with the D. I gave him a quick rundown of where we are in the process - I did not bash STBX or anything. I try to be brief when speaking with him, he is a doctor and very busy, our phone conversations are always short.

He also talked to me about his D which was final about 2+ yrs ago which was due to his XW's A. He went on and on about it and I just listened. I asked if he still has contact with XW? He said, yes, "for the children". I couldn't help but wonder after that this "contact for the children" is actually keeping him stuck.

Same thing with a dear friend of mine. Her D from her WXH was five years ago, but they still have contact. To this day, when I see her, she still talks so much about her D and has so many complaints about her WXH. I have told her about Plan B over the years and like my uncle, I think she believes it is better to "communicate for the children".

I have talked to BOTH of my kids (9 and 16) about how most divorces are not amicable, people are often left with bad feelings afterwards, and it makes more sense to me to try to find peace than to try to force a relationship. They both understand!

I agree it keeps people stuck. How galling it is to believe you should be "friends" with someone who lied and cheated on you. Who would ever choose such a person for "friend?"

It kept me stuck for YEARS in my resentment against my XH. Funny how that has changed since I have had no contact! It is popular mythology that one needs to "communicate for the children." One does not have to communicate with the other parent to be a good parent, and more often than not, it makes the parent WORSE. I am the IM for a lady who is divorced and I can tell a MARKED difference in her attitude when she has had to "communicate" with her XH. She is happy, confident and peaceful when she is not in contact with him. It makes her a BETTER parent, not a worse parent.

The notion that it is good to "communicate for the children" is one of those bumper sticker idealogies that are not well thought out but blindly accepted at face value. It belongs in the same category as "closure," "soulmates" and "if you quit that diet you will gain the weight back..." etc, etc, etc.....

Thanks all - as usual, y'all make a lot of sense.

MelodyLane, it makes me feel a LOT better to hear that your son acted the same way at the same age. I keep telling myself that he's just 'being a teenager', but it's nice to have that reinforced. We do get along great when we are together, so I do feel like the relationship is good. I just miss seeing him every day, even if it's just exchanging 'Hey!'s' as we go about our day. I'll keep working at staying in touch with him any way possible.

I also get along great with DD20 - we were always close - and she's handled everything pretty well with one notable exception. A few months ago it was brought to my attention by another family member who's active on [shudder] Facebook!!! that my daughter had accepted POSOM as a 'friend'. We had some words about that. I didn't handle it well at all. Talk about an AO! We ended up hugging and crying about it and we've moved past it. But, it told me that she didn't fully grasp what her mom had done to me, and what POSOM represented. To top it all off, she's in a relationship with a guy who has cheated on her! I just don't get it. Anyway, that's over and done with. I don't know if she's still 'friends' with POSOM on FB, and at this point I don't want to know. She'll figure it out someday.

Ahhh - life after divorce. Quite an adjustment after 20+ years of family life. Better days are coming! Plan B full steam ahead!

PS - schtoop - I certainly do remember you from SAA days. You were a great help to me. Hope you're doing well.

Don't blame him because you are old and boring! I know of so many divorced/divorcing parents on our forum whose teenagers do not want to go on visitation because they want to be with their friends! Susie's teenager and a few others I can think of resist visitation for that reason.

One thing my son and I did over the years was talk on the phone. Even though he didn't have much time for me, unless he needed new clothes/shoes, he has always liked talking to me on the phone. We talk almost every day to this day!

Yep - I get that! Even I have to admit that right now my life is boring

Phone calls are a good idea. We text back and forth once in a while (see, I'm sorta 'with it' - I text!) but I'll make more of an effort to call. Talking is always better.

I can see the typical conversation;
"Hi son - just wanted to say hi and see how you're doing"
"Hi dad"
"So, how's school going?"
"Um, it's okay"
"Are you still working a lot of hours"
"Um, Yep"
"Well, be careful - don't overdo it. Any new girls in your life" (He broke up with his gf a few weeks ago)
"Um, nope"
"Everything ok at home? Do you need anything?"
"Um, yeah it's ok. Nope"
"ok, let's make sure we get together soon for (wings, a burger, food). I'm off next Tuesday if that works for you."
"Um, ok, sounds good"
"Ok - I'll check with you in a couple of day - love you son."
"Um, ok - love you too"

At least a teenager can't 'grunt' over the phone (or can they?)

You are sooo boring!! I guess the difference is that my son LOVES TO TALK!! So I was able to focus on that and keep my relationship somewhat alive even though I was too boring to visit.

Am really impressed you can text! You are so "with it!"

Is your home warm and inviting and home-like?
Do you have things your 17 year old and 20 year old would like to do there and space for them to have a corner of their own?
Are their friends welcome to come over with them?

I think a lot of problems with children, even nearly grown ones is being a 'home' in structure.

Comforting, welcoming, family friendly home environment.

Maybe ask them to come over and make your place over to be more welcoming and home like OR even ask them to go looking for a new place with you that they can feel is another home for them!

Wow, that is a toughie Linus. I would hate to have to establish a relationship with an ex just to maintain a relationship with children. That sounds painful. I was reviewing some materials the other night from my parents' divorce and custody suit (all this stuff dragged out for years) and sharing it with Prisca for the first time as part of my history, and it was amazing to see all that pain come back. I was so thankful that I got to stay with my (betrayed) Dad, and got to stay almost completely away from my (very wayward) mother, and I think it COMPLETELY SUCKS that all children (and betrayed parents) don't get this arrangement.

I tend towards thinking you should do what you have to do to get a relationship with your kids, and try to take that relationship to a place where you don't have to deal with your ex any more. But I'm really, really mindful of the emotional damage it can do you to be involved with your ex. Is she still actively wayward? If so, I think I would try to not go there. Otherwise, cordial contact might be safer for you.

I have trouble buying the idea that a lack of relationship with your wife is what is keeping your kids too busy to see you. I understand that might buy into the fantasy of a friendly divorce, but I think this is really being given to you as an excuse. I wonder if there's some other thing wrong that needs to be changed to get them back into your life, and I'm not sure how to find out what that is. You almost need to "Plan A" them.

Linus!!
Sorry you're here. I remember when we all hoped we'd be over on the recovery board together (us 4, ), I guess it wasn't meant to be. I think we would all agree we are better off for the knowledge we've gained from MB.

I'm glad you started a thread. You'll get a lot of support and there are some great folks here going through all this in different stages.

I would not worry about your son. I tink he is acting pretty normal. I also think boys have a different relationship with their Dads than their moms. I don't believe he needs a "fun" dad (not to counter anything anyone has said above, I'm just making a different point). A boy needs to know his dad is a rock of integrity and strength. Not flighty and flakey or prone to whims. Someone he can count on if he gets a little too close to the edge.
I think this goes especially for the boy who's parents are divorced. Even more so for a kid who's Mother is lacking in various areas of maturity.

I also don't know what your custody schedule is Linus. I think kids have trouble transitioning. So if he's with her a lot, coming over could be a little disruptive to his rythm. You can see how the motivation might be low. My kids have a hard time the first day here, even though I have 50/50 physical custody. It's an adjustment every Wednesday for them. I consider my arrangement the best possible, but it's still not great. You just have to make the best of it. Which gets you back to the lesson we have to try to teach them- make the best of a bad situation.

Linus do you think he could be having some conflict because he doesn't want to have negative feelings for his mom, but he feels you have resentment towards her at this point? Sorry if I'm being presumptuous, perhaps you've already been over all this territory with him. Just bringing it up as it occurred to me. Heaven knows it's hard for a 17 year old to even identify their own feelings as it is.

I also have some other insight. Imagine that!! My GF's daughter and son are about the same ages as your kids (22 and 20). We've been trying to offer them a different perspective on dating. The MB perspective. There is some great insight over on the dating board. Dating the MB way boils down, in my understanding, to a big long interview process for a long term partner, and finding out what you like and what you don't like in a partner.
Bottom line. For your daughter. cheating is what we call a deal breaker. No if's ands or buts. It's bye-bye time. Next customer. I know you've already helped your daughter over that hurdle, but I offer it b/c of what you said in your original post.

I guess what I'm saying is that you have so much to offer your kids as they face challenges of their ages BECAUSE of your experiences here. Because of what you've learned about relationships, LB's, $LB principles, EN's.

Hang in there Linus. It's been a long haul for you but I believe the worst is in the rear-view.

opt

Great observation, Opt.



There really is no custody schedule. At his age, he's allowed to live with who he wants, and he lives with his Mom for a few reasons, all that are good. I'm certainly ok with the arrangement. I'm glad he's with her, although with work, school, friends and just being a 17 year old, I doubt they see a lot of each other anyway. They get along fine, and I'm very happy about that. I see him when I can - there is no 'schedule'. We stay in touch, but I just miss seeing him every day.

I'm sure this is happening, Opt. As I mentioned, he's always been close to his Mom, and I'm sure he's certainly not thrilled with her 'activities' with POSOM, but still loves his Mom which is good, but hates that his Dad has been so hurt. It really has to be difficult for him to deal with these feelings.



Yes, the worst is over. Better times are ahead for all of us

Markos - I LOVE the idea of 'Plan A' with the kids. It makes sense! The 'carrot' part will help me to focus on spending time with them and being a good Dad, and the 'stick' part will be, well, reminding them that I still am their Dad and once in a while they will need 'guidance' from the ol' man:)

. . . is still a work in progress.

Trying the cordial, polite route, I sent an email to XW on her birthday with the subject line 'Happy Birthday'. No message, just the subject line. She had sent a text to me on my birthday, so I thought it would be nice to do the same. Plus, hey - I'm not a 'cold hearted orb' (Graeme Edge) and I really am no longer angry.

I figured I'd either get no reply, or at the most a 'Thanks'. Instead, I got a reply that basically stated that she is sad, can't understand what happened to us, and why I don't speak to her. She asked me to reconsider for the sake of the children.

I really didn't need that. I don't know if the fog is lifting and reality is setting in, or if this is just more gaslighting.

I haven't responded, and I'm not sure I can. As much as I'd like to have that 'cordial, polite' relationship, I'm afraid it will keep turning into a back and forth about who did what.

Let the 2X4's begin . . . .

Liney, you opened the flood gates.

I remember sending an email to my ex shortly after the D was final. Much to the admonishments of my mentors here (Not2Fun, and a couple of others). But I couldn't help explaining to the ex that we just simply didn't speak the same language anymore. We had drifted apart and in spite of my efforts to present a program that might have helped us at least see things from the same perspective, she had declined to avail herself to the same information.

I don't know that I would recommend this as a course of action.

But I do think another Plan B letter would be appropriate. This time send a copy to your son so he knows your feelings, AND she wont be able to spin it into "Your dad is so mean and bitter, he won't even talk to his own ex wife, blahblahblah"
[Of course you can leave out the part about conditions for reconciliation if you would like.]
No DJ's Linus -- we can review the letter here first if you wish.

IOW, I think she has given you another opportunity to explain your position. I really feel this might be a chance to solidify things with your son as well -- it might spur a conversation with him, you never know.

Others may disagree whole-heartedly.

opt

I never really sent a Plan B letter. I did explain my feelings many times, and sent emails stating them also, but it was never a real Plan B letter. Once I was convinced that she would not work with me as far as any kind of EPs, I just gave up.

She knows my position - she just doesn't agree with it.

Of course I still care about her. I don't want bad things to happen to her. I just want both of us to move on, and to be cordial to each other when we do have occasion to need to speak or to be together. Our son's graduation is soon - I really don't want his day ruined because of ongoing tension.

It's over. I want to heal.

I wouldn't respond all because, no matter what you say, she'll think the opposite and you'll never be able to convince her or reason with her...that's from Wayward 101 if memory serves It'll likely just start a whole lot of back-and-forth where she tries to get the last word in and everyone will get caught up in the drama again.

Do you think you're a better person when you don't have contact with her?

If so, then I'd tell your kids why you don't want anything to do with the ex (they're old enough to understand) and then promptly "forget" ex-wife's email address and birthday.