You do understand that by doing for someone, your feeling of elevated affection is actually a reflection of joint satisfaction of some mix of your ENs of admiration, appreciation, and worthiness.

(Don't get me wrong: I'm not downplaying the importance or desirability of you actions. I'm only positioning them in the proper setting.)

You do something fine or loving for someone else. Even if they do not adequately express their thanks (and especially if they do) you know that such appreciation for your action is established. You enjoy experiencing that reflection, and your LB$ increases. You also know you had the ability to effect an increase in benefit to someone/something through your own initiative and actions, and get a shot of "worthiness" (aka: self-esteem), which again deposits LB units.

We all have these impulses and subsequent reactions. Onlywhen it becomes excessive, usually resulting in a "KISA complex", does it raise concerns.

What you have described is not recovery, but unconditional love, which is a disaster to marriages. Romantic love is created by having YOUR needs met. That is how people fall in love. You don't fall in love with someone just because you meet their needs. That is not how it works.

Meeting someone's needs without reciprocity only creates resentment on the part of the giver. It also leads to a marriage characterized by neglect and abuse.

Have you read these?

What's Wrong with Unconditional Love #1
What's Wrong with Unconditional Love #2

I guess my thoughts are their is something "greater" than romantic live. Something more that envelopes romantic love but transcends it. Romantic love is a predecessor to true love. I think the principles at MB help architect a great marriage but ultimately the foundation goes deeper than anything me or my spouse can do on our merits alone. If I rely solely on us as fallen mortals we'll fail again. I gotta do like it all depends on me and pray like it all depends on Him. Marriage is sacred and all I can control is my relationship with her and my relationship with God. MB gives me the tools to assist my marriage relationship but the source of strength comes from divinity.

Ps what does "kisa" stand for?

I think thats really cute, but what holds marriages together is romantic love. THAT is the foundation of a great marriage. People who are in love don't get divorced. There is nothing greater that "transcends" romantic love that will hold your marriage together. Nothing. Not committment, not unconditional love, nothing. Romantic love comes from GOD and if you want to hold your marriage together you will take the steps to ensure your marriage has it.

If you don't have it, you are likely to end up divorced.


The "strength" to do what exactly? God will not hold your marriage together against your will or your wife's. You have to use these tools to do that.

I guess my thoughts are their is something "greater" than romantic live.

Sure, off the top of my uneducated brain I can name two forms of love that might supersede a strong "romantic" love linking a husband and wife.

Secularly: It may well be that parental love might have a stronger call on one's devotion, although it would be difficult to isolate the variables. Suppose, however, a well-matched second-married couple encountered a situation in which one spouse's child needed special care that other spouse resented giving. The love of child might well trump the marital love between them, causing a rupture.

Sacredly: I have heard it said that not only is the Almighty's love for us the utmost expression possible, but there are cases in which a person's love for the Almighty exceeds the love possible for any other human, spouses included. (There are saints whose histories include just such abandonment.)

Well, those two cases being offered, HH, unless you are thinking of adopting your current wife, or aspiring to Canonization, you might better be satisfied with creating the strongest "romantic" love with her that can be envisioned. And that, my friend, is best achieved through the principles and practices of the program.

But, and this I can say with full conviction:
KISA = Knight In Shining Armor

p.s. romantic love is "true" love. Very true!

I guess we're squabbling over semantics because I don't disagree with you in practice. I define romantic love as the infatuation stage that last 24-36 months that every long term relationship goes through. That's the love is blind stage. True love can encompass that love but its deeper more genuine live that loves with eyes wide open. This live speaks the love language of the other even when they don't feel like it. This love is greater than the counterfeit that's based on lies and deceit that affairs selfishly indulge in. True love is more give oriented without sacrificing self. When both marriage partners work towards this goal a marriage is at its pinnacle state in earth.

You believe all this because you don't understand how romantic love is created. If you knew anything about Marriage Bulders you would understand that the program creates romantic love that does not fade. Couples stay married due to romantic love, not because of some "love language" or even because of a commitment. Romantic love is "REAL LOVE." It is a genuine, "deep" love that sustains marriages.

Dr. H has been ultra-clear in his definitions of romantic love, etc. Why redefine terms?; it invites semantic confusion. Romantic love is not infatuation. A cursory reading of "His Needs, Her Needs" demonstrates that. We need to stay consistent with the MB concepts and terminology, and not confuse the discussion with other stuff.

My wife got turned off by the MB program during the online seminar because she doesn't believe SF is an emotional need and mist certainly shouldn't be my top need and refuses to go back to it right now because she felt DR. H was saying to "fake it til you make it" regarding SF.

My wife got turned off by the MB program during the online seminar because she doesn't believe SF is an emotional need...

Oh, okay. My wife got turned off by her astronomy course because she doesn't believe the planets orbit the sun. She dropped out. That doesn't mean we reject Copernicus and Galileo, and redefine the Laws of Physics, just to suit her!

The people who have applied this program to this marriage, and have also maintained infatuation in their marriage because of the proper application of this program would disagree.

That's all fine but I cant sell her on it right now.

Sometimes I wonder when I hear something like this if the problem is not so much about not believing SF is an emotional need as it is resistance to the idea that that need should be or has to be met regardless of the relational environment; that because it's a need, the other is obligated to fill it, and perhaps it's that perceived hint of force she's repulsed by. Has she read "Question of the Ages" article? If not, it might help persuade her to give MB a chance, especially if you show her that you understand and agree with it as well.

That's all fine but I cant sell her on it right now.

Uhh, selling her is not vital. You're the FBS; she doesn't get a vote! Remind her you still have the unplayed "Get Out of Marriage Free" card. Try "selling" her on the alternative she's facing. Or...continue to let the wayward steer the recovery bus, badly, which has been going on quite a while, yes?

Today's show may be of benefit to you. It doesn't seem you two have the no contact, EPs, and transparency in place. If they aren't, it's a deal breaker. In today's show, Dr. Harley was telling the WW that she had to close her love bank to all men except her husband, then told the husband how he could help her open her bank to him.

I'm curious to learn more about this. Is their a psych term to describe this construct? I believe one spouse has the power to prime the pump in the relationship and its working...too slowly but working nonetheless. Thanks

HH-I think many of us are finding you and your marriage travails exasperating. Your wife, as described by you, has no doubt found this a while back.

As has been said to you too many times in the past, a clear, no nonsense plan to recovery must be created and shared with your wife. A great marriage is cultivated from the cesspool you are still mired in when both enthousiatically work that plan.

When you are still figuring out how to please her so she'll "please you" at this late stage, you need a new plan.

You see, her malaise and unhappiness is a result of a very little change after dday. Perhaps the only difference is she isnt sleeping with the other guy.

The successful adherents to MB took the opportunity to make collosal changes in ours lives. We gave our spouses a chance to show us they are forever committed to us. These changes are up to you to layout. Many guys, like you and I, need more bedroom action. Some want a cleaner house, maybe dinner on the table once in a while, financial support, and etc from their wives on top of the standard NC and transparency things.

How long are you going to stab at the windmills of "priming her love pump" to make her love you more? At this late stage, she has shown little inclination to meet your needs.

HH, the level of your denial is probably the biggest problem right now.

You have been making excuses for your WW's fogginess and have repeatedly emphatically stated the A "is over". SugarCane pointed this out on the first page of this thread -- when you admitted you found contact w/n the last two weeks. Then you did the same thing months later here in this thread, tried to skim over the fact that found recent broken NC again.

You have ignored questions about whether the OM's BW was informed and how it was that your WW was able to break contact if you have implemented EPs and a keylogger on her computer.

You have given several reason for her refusal to meet your ENs (such as feeling severe guilt over the A and now it is due to her being anti-MB when you just a few months ago said she was on board with MB????) and completely denied it would have anything to do with there still being C.

It is impossible to begin to fix the problem when you are in complete denial of what the problem is and just want to sweep the A under the rug. I would suggest you go back to the beginning of the thread and re-read all the advice you have already ignored.