My WW is finally getting to the recovery stage of things. However, I was wondering if there were any good resources and or helps, books, websites etc to help my WW through her struggles of forgiving herself and wanting to repair our relationship more expeditiously? She still struggling with allowing me to show physical affection to her and SF is completely out of the question right now. IC, RC are definitely up, but I feel like we can't start progressing again until we allow ourselves to meet each others TOP needs - Affection/RC for her and SF/Admiration for me. I don't want to come across as demanding, insensitive or manipulative, but how does one go about requesting these things without love busting at such a vulnerable and sensitive time, early in recovery. My wife also is still healing from what she views as MY infractions against her over the time we've been married and is still letting those go and processing the forgiveness towards me(aka fog talk - which is diminishing more by the day - but I have wronged her, a little here and their consistently over a long period of time by being neglectful, manipulative and demanding(my own love busters), whereas she just blasted a cannon ball through me in one fell swoop with her A) that is necessary to move forward.

Is there anything out there that has helped WW heal and get past feelings for the OM. She admits she still has feelings there, but they vacillate between care and anger(he lied to her - ya think?) When she's angry she's warm and close to me, when she's caring she's cold and withdrawn towards me. I don't want her to HATE him, I don't see the point in that, however, I want her to be apathetic towards him. Who gives a flip about that POSOM(even if everyone that knows him thinks he's 'great') Does that ever happen? I don't want her to want to care about him. I want her to be worried about me and our little family, which she's is doing more and more as we progress down this path.

So any help out there specifically targeting WW who feel extreme guilt for their actions to the point where it impedes the ability of the BS to meet their needs?

Thanks

MB is the best place to recover.

Will she come here for help?

What about calling the coaching center or the online program? You're giving a coach to walk her through it.
Online program

Wait just one minute.

I remember your story, because I was about to reply to your thread and then found it gone. Your wife wants to separate from you in July, despite the fact that she says her affair is over, because she wants to sort out her feelings and see if she wants to get a divorce. You have new baby twins, and she was pregnant while she had this affair, which she says did not involve penetration.

Your wife tells you openly that she cannot bear having sex with you and does not want you anywhere near her. On you previous thread, you were trying to pursue a line of "sexual aversion", but many people here were trying to tell you that she was STILL IN HER AFFAIR and that is why she does not want to have sex with you.

Please tell us what has changed to make you say that you are "finally getting to the recovery stage of things". Is your wife still planning to leave you in July?

HH, I remember your other thread. What has changed that has caused you to be in the Recovery forum? If I recall correctly, your WW appeared to still be in the affair. What requirements has she fulfilled that causes you to believe that she is on board with recovery? Did you give her any?

(Examples: paternity test on your children since the affair occurred at the same time she got pregnant, NC letter to OM, exposure of the affair to folks who can help keep an eye on her and OM). Has any of this happened?

A truly remorseful wayward does not want to separate to 'sort out her feelings'.

I believe you should remain in the SAA forum unless something drastic has changed from your previous thread.

She's actively working with me, doesn't want to separate and we're moving forward with cautious decisions about our future together. Things have progressed rapidly in every aspect except the physical touch which she feels will take time, however, she can at least start talking about it with me without completely withdrawing and breaking down. We've had some serious breakthroughs with a MC. One of the biggest breakthroughs was when she found out the OM was actively working on recovering his marriage, which the OMW confirmed to me a few days prior. Once she found that out, she knew he was lying to her(for some reason she knew he was a pathological liar to everyone else, but hadn't lied to her...;-p) She broke down and gave me everything in the form of what happened, details, passwords, she changed her passwords in front of me and gave me a heartfelt apology, I placed a keylogger on her phone and computer prior to all that and am convinced after several weeks now that there is no contact and she is actively trying to get past her feelings that she has created for him. Now she's trying to get past her 'resentment' and 'anger' that's being directed towards me from how I made her feel to the years leading up to her choices, but she's much softer and caring now. She allowed me to get rid of some things in our house that have acted as 'triggers' to both of us. It's been completely exposed and the rumor mill has been running rampant which really killed it.

Curious to know if anyone has a rough timeline of the ebbs and flows of recovery.

Is there usually a day or time where the wayward 'snaps out it' and things begin feeling normal, or is it a continual gradual progression like what I'm seeing with occasional breakthroughs and set backs?

HH, the most impactful thing you can do for your marriage is to spend 20+ hours a week of undivided attention meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs of conversation, affection, recreational companionship, and sexual fulfillment. Without that, this is all hopeless because is the KEY to falling in love again.

It take 20-25 hours to fall in love and 15 hours to maintain romantic love. Dr Harley even recommends going away on a 1 to 2 week vacation together to start things off.

You won't ever recover the romantic feelings in your marriage without this step. I would get the workbook Five Steps to Romantic Love and tear out the UA time worksheet and make copies. Sit down once a week and plan out your next week, writing out date, time, activities.

It is best to plan 4 - 4 hour DATES out of the home. The most quality UA time is spent out on dates where you get cleaned up and are away from the home. UA at home is not the best.

If you don't have a good babysitting source for your children, I would work on getting as many people lined up as possible. Expand your babysitting list as much as you can.

Also, most people REFUSE to do this step because in bad marriages everything comes first. Then they wonder why their marriages STAY bad.

The Policy of Undivided Attention

Five Steps to Romantic Love

If you are counseling in a room together and airing your grievances then you are damaging any possible progress toward recovery. Most marriage counselors counsel conflicted couples together and this practice only results in enormous lovebank withdrawals. Couples in conflict tend to air grievances about the other and they leave the session more angry than when they go in. This is one of the many ways that marriage counselors are destructive to marriages.

So, if your MC is counseling you together in the same room, it could harm any progress you make.

We've had about 8 or 9 counseling session, in which only 3 or so were done together.

I agree. She's getting to this point. I read HNHN and am currently reading Lovebusters. I talked about both books with her but never asked her to read them. She has HNHN in her possession right now without my promting. She's not on board with the 20-25 hours yet, but I think she's getting there.

Are you airing your grievances in front of each other?

HH, does she have Surviving an Affair? Dr Harley recommends they read SAA instead because it is written FOR the wayward.

Another important point is for her to understand that she needs to give you just compensation in order for your marriage to recover from her affair. Dr Harley does not recommend forgiveness. Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?

Here is a radio clip about forgiveness: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3387
[November 17, 2011
Segment: #03387]

Preaching to the choir. However, how do you get just compensation without lovebusting? I feel that if I simply ask, due to the nature of our current relationship, that it would withdraw units.

And I should clarify that she's not on board with the 20-25 hours due to the nature of out lives. The incredible amount of pressures I'm under to finish school and the pressures she's under raising the kids. I know these are excuses, and that the marriage should come first and for me it is, however these are realities that we're dealing with as well.

Explain to her that this is what it will take to recover your marriage. It is real important for a BS to set high standards for recovery or there will be no recovery. If you have no standards, she will just live down to your [non-existant] standards. It is up to you to lead your marriage out of the ditch. You can't leave your life and your marriage at the mercy of a drunk driver and it sounds like that is what you are doing. There has to be a PLAN here or you are condemning yourself to years of growing, festering resentment. If you want to see what a marriage looks like when there is no plan, read the posts by BS's who are seething with resentment years after an affair. Or read the posts from BS's who experienced 2nd and 3rd affairs because they didn't set high standards.

Here is an example of the kind of discussion you should be having with her. Add or remove conditions to suit your situation.

I understand. The reality is that everything comes before your marriage. Your marriage comes LAST. That is WHY you are in this mess. You need to raise the bar!

Nothing will change unless you start living a life that complements your marriage. The nature of your lives is an enemy to your marriage that is leading you to divorce. Your marriage won't last like this.

It was very minimal in one session. The counselor was excellent IMO.

So, what is the counselors plan to get you to change your lives to accommodate your marriage and give it the time it needs? What is the plan?

One problem we'll have is that I'm off to ODS in the military for 5 weeks starting later this summer. So I'm doing everything I can now to get to the point where we can sustain that separation.

Well we've moved out of necessity. This was already planned. And now we'll be in a new state going forward. My plan is to do the MB online program. But I need to present it to her.

ugh.. That will be a disaster. What bad timing. Can you get out of this?

No however, we're living with her parents (who are on board and committed to our relationship and live out in the middle of nowhere)in the mean time until that is over.

Thats too bad. Is there any way she can go with you and leave the kids with her parents?

Has she ended all contact with the OM? Does the OM live anywhere close?

I think there is a point where I can see her half way through it. Yes she could potentially leave the kids with her parents, and they're totally willing and planning on helping out in that dept A LOT, even if it kills them, lol.

All contact has ended with OM and He lives in another state now.

HH, have you asked your WW to take a polygraph to confirm her version of events? Have you tested your children to confirm that they are actually your children? (You need to test both.)

Your WW is having a hard time coming back to the marriage because she is afraid that you're not the bio dad.

Time for a DNA test.

It's been confirmed that the A is over. The kids are mine. And she's been 100% truthful about the affair since true NC.

We've actually moved from a state of withdrawal, to states of conflicts to occasional states of intimacy(on an conversational level). However, regression does happen and she seems genuinely concerned about my needs, but fails to meet my most important needs period, which are absolutely my most important needs NOW more than ever and that's SF and physical touch from her. These two things help me to feel safe and secure in our relationship. She's denying me these things in the name of the pain she's felt about that part of our relationship over the past years. She feels that the little wrongs I caused her(when she admits they were often unexpressed or simply that she thought I didn't care) have accumulated to the point where she thought of me as repulsive, however that stance is definitely softening. However, I'm finding myself withdrawing from her right now because of the lack of my needs being met, my giver has been kicked into overdrive and as a result, I feel like my taker is taking over right now. I feel like I've been the noble soldier who's been bending over backwards to meet the needs that she'll allow me to meet for her, doing everything in my power to finish school and get my degree, and picking up the slack at home to make sure our family moves forward in our lives without it all falling apart or being set back.

Overall, I feel like I'm the wayward spouse here with the way I've been treated. I read other threads of WW who do everything in their power to restore love and trust in their relationships only to be met with withdrawal from their BH. It makes me entirely jealous of those BH's. I can get past this A, I can heal, I know this to be true, but I feel like everything being focused on her, rather than on 'US'. I don't feel like we can ultimately 'heal' individually, without healing each other together in the same process and her denying me affection in both forms of giving and receiving as well as SF just eats me up inside. I feel like I am suffocating with the lack of physical touch that I crave from her. I can count on one hand how many times she's touched me and her limited hugs feel like they're from a 'friend' and not a spouse.

On the good side, IC has risen dramatically and I'm discovering that it's a bigger need for me than I ever realized. And I know that's a major EN for her. So that's a positive. She's expressed to me how much she appreciates me as a Father and how hard I work at being a great father. I've recognized that I think one of the problems in our past that we can learn from is to create fertile, safe soil for IC. I think a LB that we're both guilty of is DJ's in this regard. I know I've withdrawn often in the past about my feelings and desires because I felt they would be met with hostility or criticism. And I do believe men struggle with communicating feelings moreso than women and it's even more destructive for men to have this expression met with criticism. So instead of being open, I've withdrawn on different levels in the past.

I think my biggest needs are: 1) SF, 2) Admiration 3) RC, 4) PA 5) IC
I think her biggest needs are: 1) Affection, 2) RC, 3) IC, 4) Admiration, 5) H/0

Right now, SF and Aff are at zeros. RC is limited, but exists. Admiration is low but present, and IC and H/O is at an all time high.

I've been EXTREMELY patient through all this, probably to a fault, but I have been able to limit the amount of LB's, but have not been able to do as much as I want to deposit love units directly, it's mostly been indirectly by refraining from LB's.

So I guess the root of my question, the reason I started this thread is how does one help their WW come running in and do a cannon ball into the pool of marriage rather than circling around it and dipping her toe in and out of the water when the true means(meeting her EN's) is limited?

I've poured myself into learning all I can to meet her needs, how to be a better husband and father and the results are working, it's awfully too slow for my liking though, but I still feel that she blames me for her A. I used to blame myself, but have gotten well over those feelings months ago. I feel that she is using that blame to justify her feelings and to rationalize what she did. I know she is remorseful. But are their levels of being remorseful? I feel like she's at the sorry I know what I did was wrong, I'm sorry I hurt you, I was wrong and stupid, but I'm not ready to jump into the pool with you yet because I don't even trust myself, let alone you stage.

That's where we're at in my opinion and I'm trying to get her down to the level where she's ready to act, and by acting I mean by allowing each other to meet each other's most important emotional needs.

Help?!

I'm interested in knowing how you have confirmed these things.

Or are you saying that you took her word for everything and don't wish to know more?

HH, if you are satisfied with accepting her pinky-swear about this and don't want to find out otherwise, say the word and I won't bring it up again. But you need to understand that there may be a huge, huge secret that your wife is keeping from you. Secrets about the affair will prevent a proper recovery and further erode the fragile foundation you're on right now.

She's in another state from the OM. I have had a keylogger on her computer and phone for a while. There is no more contact. There are no more secrets.

Now, I'm ready to move forward to help recover our relationship now.

HH, I thought I knew everything. You really don't. Don't allow her to manipulate the outcome of the marriage. Get the whole truth, its the best thing I ever did, even though it was the most painful thing ever for me to hear. Listen to what everyone is telling you, the truth will give you closure. One way or another. Good luck.

I have the truth, the details at this point I don't even care for. I ready to leave all that in the past. I'm more concerned about the present and the future quite frankly. I want advice on how to help my WW become a FWW akin to those other WW on these forums who are feverishly working to make their marriages work with BH who are unreceptive. I'm receptive, I want to heal this, but I want to help and support my wife in overcoming the feelings that ail her right now. I would have never believed you had you told me my wife would be where she is today just 6 weeks ago. A lot has transpired and now, I'm hoping to recover the marriage and love that our relationship desperately needs which is all prospective, not retrospective.

Will she come here and post? So we may help her?

eventually i think she would when i ask her.

eventually i think she would when i ask her. [/quote]

Did you ask her? Did you present the conditions I outlined above? Because I don't see any plan here, my friend, other than "hope." And hope is not a plan. You have to have a PLAN of action.

When is "eventually?"

Did you ask her? Did you present the conditions I outlined above? Because I don't see any plan here, my friend, other than "hope." And hope is not a plan. You have to have a PLAN of action.

When is "eventually?" [/quote]

I've been drafting a plan this weekend. I plan on presenting these things when I sense that it's an appropriate time after I'm done drafting the conditions I'd like to present. I don't just want to spring it on her at the soonest available time, because that might be the 'down' time when she's still dealing with 'withdrawal'. I'm waiting for the opportune moment when we're on a 'high'.

The best time to present it is right after the affair. There won't be any "high times" if you don't have a plan. The sooner you have a plan in place, the sooner she will come out of withdrawal. Feelings FOLLOW ACTIONS so if you are not executing a plan of action, her feelings will linger while your feelings of resentment GROW. The greatest risk here will be your feelings of resentment and without a plan, you are headed right for resentment.

i get the feeling that you are scared of her, and you can't operate on fear. She may not respond well to your plan at first, but that is no reason to wait. You need to get it out there NOW before this state of limbo and resentment gets any more entrenched. It is up to you to drive your marriage out of the ditch. Don't wait any longer! You have already waited too long.

Yeah that's pretty much all true. Had a very resentful week this past week, but was able to come out of it this weekend in a BIG way. We've had some really solid conversations and I sense a normalcy returning to her voice that hasn't been present in previous weeks. I'll see if I can't talk to her tomorrow about it. Life is hectic with the little ones, moving and adjust, but this is my top priority, and I hope it's her's too. But to be fair, we've had a plan and we've executed it nearly flawlessly since it was agreed upon up to this point of the move. Now we need to adapt and adjust with the move in place and continue forward with this new plan. I'll post it here when I'm done tomorrow.

I don't see a plan for recovery here, though. Not having a plan for recovery is a plan to FAIL. I sense that your goal is avoid conflict at any and all cost and I assure you, that would be a huge mistake. Just going along like nothing happened will lead to disaster. You need to blow this bad marriage up and kill it. You have to start over if you want to make it. And I would suggest that conflict avoidance and capitulation is part of the problem.

Okay, so here's the plan. I really am content that I have the facts of the A. Those don't bother me in the slightest right now. What does bother me IS one of the facts. I KNOW she has feelings(not sure to what extent at this point and I know it wavers for her A LOT - but when she's angry at him I feel that she's feeling closer to me, but whenever someone talks badly of him, she defends him and tells that person that she did it too) for the OM still. And what bothers me is I still feel like a consolation, a default. What triggered here sincere apology was when she found out that the OM was actively seeking to repair his relationship with his wife. Then she felt brokenhearted, remorseful and embarrassed for what she'd done. From that day on, we had about 4 of the best days in however long I can remember, it was those 4 days that allowed me to realize how important IC was for me as a EN. Also, I felt like she was actively concerned about my needs. Then she asked how I was doing one morning and I was O/H with her about it. Since even before the dday, my sex drive has diminished and nearly evaporated due to the constant conflict that I saw between us leading up to D-day. I told her that my sex drive was returning and that sent her back into withdrawal from me. Since then, we really haven't been that O/H about 'us'. We've had some great conversations, but anytime SF comes up, it kills it. We're essentially roommates, I can't touch her, or I won't touch her, because I am afraid to push her away. My #1 EN is SF. It always has been, and that's been a big part of the problem in our marriage. I'm guilty of demands and judgments in that arena of our marriage and that's what she's grappling with IMO. Is how our SF has been. From my perspective I can count on maybe 1 or 2 hands how many times she's ever 'initiated SF' with me. It seems that if I didn't ask, request, pressure, demand or guilt it out of her, we would be abstinent. I've always felt this, and I feel that the times we did have SF were mostly out of 'duty' to be the good wife and to get me to stop bothering her. I think these things are roots to where we are today in both of our situations that have lead to other LB's in our marriage. So yeah, I am scared, I'm scared of pushing her away. I'm being patient with her as I think she's still in the withdrawal stage and I'm just trying to wait it out. Things HAVE gotten better overall, I no longer think she wants to divorce, rather she's entirely apprehensive about our future together and doesn't trust herself or me. I'm scared of LBing her if I do request certain things in my plan. I'm scared she's going to stress out and make a rash decision if I load her down with more on her already full plate. I'm trying to be a good, loving husband, understand, non-demanding during this stressful time, but I'm NOT getting my needs met and she's denying me the opportunity to meet her needs in the most productive ways. So yeah, I am scared.

Being in another state, having a keylogger on her phone and computer, being with family, I'm not concerned about the NC at this point. It's been taken care of already and been established. That's where it needs to be, in the past, I don't want to bring it up again. As far as details, I'm comfortable at this point in knowing what I know about the A. Things still bother me, sometimes A LOT, but the thing that bothers me the most right now is NOT having my wife, not having my most important needs meet, SF, Affection, and not feeling like I'm #1 in her life. Right now I feel like the kids and her moving in the 'way' that we left have come first. I don't feel first still and that's what bothers me and it affects how I treat her, I withdraw and I don't know how to snap out of it sometimes. It makes me feel like I'm the WS and that my neglect, my sins, my idiosyncrasies as a spouse is the major problem and that I'm the one that has to go to Herculean lengths to make this marriage work. I see other WW on here going to those Herculean efforts for just compensation and that's what I desire, but I feel like that's my TAKER kicking in and that I'm just being selfish so I can have my needs met. Usually when I read something inspirational I break out of my funks and bad moods, but I feel scared too when I do, because I read that we shouldn't just 'press on' either because that leads to future problems. I want to move forward, but I don't know how. Where I want to start is at the end of withdrawal stage and beginning of recovery stage because that's where I think we are.

My idea is to get the MB online course and go through that together.

To follow those principles, POJA, Radical Honest, UA - meeting each others needs.

Go to a spiritual counselor weekly to have further accountability, guidance, support and spiritual strength.

Continue the EP's that we have established and look for other EP's as they become apparant to us.

Recovery is supposed to start once the affair ends, NOT weeks later when withdrawal ends. Waiting on a plan of recovery only cements her bad feelings and increases your resentment. My concern with you is that you are operating on FEAR and HOPE, which is not a plan. You are so scared of upsetting her that you are squandering your marriage.

You need to step up to the plate here and be a little more assertive. Your complacence comes across as a lack of caring.


Ok, so when will you do this? If you are not able to present a plan of recovery, then I agree you need to get some professional help doing this. When will you sign up?


But you are not following a plan for recovery. A plan for recovery is this:


Once the affair has ended, the next step is to implement the basic concepts, most especially the UA time. The program doesn't work without that step.

If you are not able to present a plan of recovery, I agree you should sign up for the online course and let the coach do it. But you shouldn't be waiting around. The longer you wait the harder it will be to recover your marriage. Don't wait!

I will start the online course with her, if she is in agreement with it this week.

NC was about 4-5 weeks ago, however, it's been about 2.5 weeks since I discovered they had each other's FB passwords and were lurking to keep up to date on each other found via my keylogger. So my time table is it's been 2.5 weeks since NC and I am assured that it has remained this way since due to the keylogger and having so much family in town this month and now having moved to another state.

You have confused her being tolerant of you with "things being better." Things are not better in your marriage at all. Just because she tolerates your presence does not mean you have a marriage. Your goal is to avoid her wrath at any and all cost, our goal is to help you save your marriage. I agree she is right to be apprenhensive about your future. I am too! There is no plan here other than hope and fear.

You need to man up, my friend. This no time to be a timid tommy.

That is a great start. And I would start thinking about your strategy of appeasement and capitulation, my friend. It has not served you well. Will you take the time to read this article?

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2626499#Post2626499

Wow, kinda describes how things have gone in many ways, not 100% by any stretch, but definitely some truth there. However, I have a feeling she would think that this is not the case at all. I know she feels like she's given everything in the marriage, been submissive, been the good wife, lost her identity. She's expressed those things to me. I read somewhere that usually the unfaithful spouse is the one that's giving less in the marriage. What's weird to me about that is I've had far fewer complaints about our marriage than my wife. I dunno if we're exceptions, if I just have a lower threshold for happiness, or if I'm just a relationally retarded and out of touch with her. But it's got me thinking...but I know I can't change her, I can only change myself and I'm trying to make the efforts to change myself.

Is their a MB weekend coming up 2012 or 2013? It seems like they haven't had one since 2010 based on what I find on the website.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8121_POJA_needs.html

I found this article enlightening, however, I'm concerned that the SF isn't merely an inconvenience for her right now(like suggested in the article), but rather an actual aversion to touch me.

HH, the reason people keep pushing you on the affair is that we don't believe that it is over at all. As I remember, people tried to tell you that on your last thread and you hated hearing it. Somehow that thread went missing and you showed up here again, this time omitting all the details of the affair, such as the fact that it took place during your wife's pregnancy and the fact that she wanted to separate in July to think about divorce, and even the very fact that you had posted here at all.

You seem to want to start a clean slate here by telling us that every single concern we had has been dealt with; the kids are yours (although you do not talk about the DNA test), you have all the facts about the affair (although you do not mention the polygraph that we told you arrange, because we were sure that this affair long predates your twins' conception), she does not want to separate (although you are leaving her alone later this summer in order to do the military service) and she is not in contact, which you know because you have a keylogger.

And yet only now do you reveal to us that the keylogger showed that they were "lurking to keep up to date on each other". This wasn't even a one-way lurking, with your wife looking at him because she pines for him; this was a two-way "keeping up to date on each other". Just exactly how deep a denial are you in about this affair being still on?

I think that you are convinced that this affair will not result in your wife's leaving you, because you know that OM has told his wife he is working on his marriage. If he won't leave his wife, then your wife has nowhere to go.

Well, I'll tell you this with the benefit of my experience.

That was exactly the status of the affair in my marriage. OW was deeply in love with my H, and he was in love with her, but he wasn't prepared to leave his marriage for her. She faced this reality again and again after the D Days in which either I or her H discovered something about the affair, and she asked my H to run away with her, and instead he dumped her. She would be be humiliated and scream words of hating him, but then she (not he) would make the first move, to say that she still missed and loved him, and surely if he cared for her he would see her, and she would realise that making demands on him were not the way to get him back. I know this happened because I spoke to her H at length when I finally exposed and he told me her reaction to the news that my H had no intention of leaving me, and I know it happened several times before, because I read her furious emails and text messages to my H accusing him of having used her.

Yet despite being slapped in the face again and again with the clear fact that my H WAS using her and would never leave me for her, she never gave up trying. They last saw each other in 2006 when my H changed jobs to stop travelling, yet she continued to call him at long intervals - perhaps every six months - at his office where I could not monitor anything, to see how he was - just as a friend you understand, and to monitor how his marriage was going and whether his son was old enough yet for my H to feel that he could leave home. This phone contact continued for 5 more years until last year, when my H was about to reitre and sent her his email addy from our home PC - the first time he had ever emailed her from home. I trapped that email with the keylogger.

OW words of love to my H were not just words. She moved out of her H's bedroom about a year into the affair, citing consideration for his need to sleep early as he left for work at 5.30 each morning. The truth was that she could not bear sleeping with him, as she told my H.

During the affair, she applied for as many jobs as she could with the European Union that would take her abroad, so that she could leave her H. She finally got one in Luxembourg (their country was Belgium) and rented a flat and stayed there Monday to Fridays, returning home to sleep in the spare room and ignore her H all weekend. He didn't want her to take the job and he was very unhappy when she came home on Friday nights, slept in the spare room until midday Saturday, went to the hairdresser and then the supermarket, taking about 5 hours to herself for the rest of Saturday, then stayed away from her H until the small hours on Monday morning when he would take her to the station to catch the train back to Luxembourg. He HATED this but his solution to an unhappy marriage was to appease her. She had had a 4-year PA that ended a few years before the one with my H started, and she had planned to leave her H then. She actually got a job in Luxembourg at that time, too, and rented a flat and told her H she was leaving him with the two kids, then 10 and 7 years. Her H nixed the job by ringing the employer and telling them that they were breaking up a family by offering the job to his wife, and they found a way to break the contract.

His wife was furious and never forgave him, and continued dating and sleeping with any man who would use her (her H didn't know about these others - MY H told me about them), until she found my H and they "fell in love".

The affair was discovered by me 6 weeks in, but as it took place abroad (we live in the UK, and my H travelled to Belgium for a few days each month for work), it was easy to hide. My H simply buried the affair and made a strong effort to woo me back. That was easier for a man like my H to do, who didn't see OW all that often and who could definitely enjoy having sexual relationships with two women. It has not been possible for your wife to use the same trick of having sex with you, because, like most women, she cannot bear having sex with one man if she is in love with another.

My H dumped this woman many times (about 8, to my knowledge), and she always "hated" him for that, but she always reignited contact because she was in love with him, and he was always glad to hear from her because he was in love with her. (He kept telling me that he wasn't in love with her - but then he would say that, wouldn't he. Certainly his behaviour was just as addicted as any other man in an affair.)

My point - and I do have one - is that knowing that my H was staying with me did not stop OW from trying to get my H back. She played her game in different ways; something crying and screaming, once turning up at his office in London (when she was in my country for a few days) crying and begging him to take her back - after he had just dumped her because I had found out that they had met again - sometimes screaming that he was a POS and SHE was dumping HIM, and lately, during the final 5 years, calling only every six months, "to find out how he was". Finally, last April, when her H was making final plans to take early retirement and move back to their home country to wait for her, she phoned my H to suggest that perhaps they could meet again after her H had left. My H might not be able to travel to Belgium ever again under my watchful eye, but she could travel to London for a few days and I would never know. They could meet and have sex in central London hotels. They were actually planning to go through with this when I intercepted the email with the keylogger. My H dumped her yet again, and we'll have to see how the future goes.

I'm telling you my story because I believe that your wife is exactly like OW in my marriage, who is very like the WWs that Dr Harley describes. He says it takes a long time for a wife to become so disillusioned with her marriage that she has an affair, and by the time she is discovered by her H she is so checked out of the marriage that it is almost impossible to win her back. Very often the only hope is for OM to dump her - which is what OM in Dr Harley's book Surviving an Affair did to Sue. Nothing that the BH Jon could do stopped the affair. After Sue moved out, in and back out again, it took OM Greg getting fed up with her depression and finding another woman to finally end the affair. Sue went back to Jon because she had nowhere else to go and nothing to lose by going back, and he was prepared to take her back on that basis. Only when she was home was he able to make tiny deposits in her love bank. And only because Greg had moved on was it not possible to reignite the affair yet again. You are lucky that OM in your situation is married and his wife is willing to work on the marriage. That is your only hope for the affair to end; that his wife will make his life hell until he ends it because your wife is just not worth it. Your wife will not end it on her own, no matter how much she sees that she is being used. She is checked out of your marriage and she sees this man as her saviour and she does not believe that he never loved her.

My urging you to find out when the affair started by polygraphing your wife is not to burden your mind with more details that will turn your stomach, and not because I believe the twins are not yours. I'm urging you to do that because I could see from your first thread that your wife is in love with OM and she did not get there by having non-penetrative sex and an EA that only started after she was pregnant. She got there by having a sexual relationship with him that started many months (years) before your twins were conceived.

And it's not over yet, as you have just told us. Indeed, why would it be? Burying the contact deeper and deeper, and finding other ways (Facebook) to keep in contact without actually contacting, are the hallmarks of all long-running affairs. Now, why does your wife do her part in keeping the affair going when she knows OM will not leave his wife for her? Well, partly because she is addicted to the high of the affair and hasn't yet broken that addiction - because she has not been NC ever- and partly because the affair is much older and deeper than you want to admit.

Nobody here enjoys telling you you are a fool for the sake of it, HH. I'm telling you my story because my H's long affair just about killed me. Some of the men here have told you how difficult it is to stop a wife having an affair because they have been through it, and their personal recoveries have been badly stalled by such issues as lack of sex and lack of love.

We know that there is still contact between them and that this is for a reason. your wife is hoping to get OM to agree to leave with her again, as he did once before - another detail that I remember from your thread that you have somehow hidden. They planned to divorce their spouses and run off together, didn't they? OM won't do this now - but your wife doesn't believe that.

Okay; you've had my best, and I won't be back unless you acknowledge what I say and show some sign of wanting to take it into account. Good luck.

OW and her H (in my sitch) to a tee.

She blamed him for accepting a job in Brussels and moving them from their home country, to a country where she couldn't work and lost her status. She hated becoming what she called a "trailing spouse" and being reduced to being "only" a housewife. She would drop her kids at the expensive private school where other mothers were dropping their kids and then running off to do important work for banks or the European Union or the government, while she went home to make the beds. She tried for years to get permission to work and when she got it her H didn't dare stop her doing whatever she wanted, including applying for jobs all over Europe.

He, meanwhile, was providing a much better standard of living for the whole family than they had been able to afford back home. They had a big detached house (unusual in European cities) and 3 cars, a holiday timeshare and she had lots of furs and jewellery. He loved being a father and family man. Yet she was bitter, bored and resentful and paid him back silently for her plight by shagging around. She got stung before in the four-year affair when her driving instructor wouldn't leave his wife for her, but it did not stop her going back for more with my H. And despite her partial confession to him of that first affair ("they never had sex"), her H had NO CLUE how unhappy she was and that she was tucking in to other men left, right and centre.

This is typical I'm afraid, HH.

They don't run them any more. They run the online course instead.

Women have a sexual aversion when they fall out of love. Women need 2 things to desire sex: an emotional attachment and the prospect of enjoyment. She is emotionally detached from you which is what we are trying to help you overcome right now. When you fall in love again, the sex problem will fix itself.

oh wow. So she has not really ended contact? Does she still have the facebook account? Did you notify the OMW they were still in touch?

Because that would explain why you aren't getting anywhere.

What you describe is the rule rather than the exception. Female waywards are often in the practice of making sacrifices. Sacrificing creates resentment which leads to: "By God, I have given and given, now it is my turn to take!!" Extreme giving leads to extreme taking. And men typically have fewer complaints than women. That is the rule. IT takes much less to make a husband happy than it does a wife.

And while you can't change her, you can change your boundaries and are not obliged to stay in a marriage with a spouse who refuses to meet your needs and give you just compensation.

HH, Sugarcane just gave you super advice and if you want to save your marriage, you will take it. I see you working very hard to sweep this affair under the rug and that will lead to divorce. Either she will leave you for OM or her complete lack of cooperation in restoring the marriage will eventually destroy it.

It will take a much more assertive approach than what I see here. Complacence will ruin any chance you have of turning this around.

I am really disappointed that you left out so many key facts about your situation. It is impossible for me to help someone if I don't have the facts. I am confused why you would have me wasting my time like that. I have a marriage just like you do, and I have taken valuable time out of my life to post to you.

Sugar Cane I appreciate your response, however, I feel like part of your reasoning for feeling the way you do about my wife is from projecting some of your experiences onto our experiences. I admit affairs DO have common threads for sure, and some exist here. However, my wife has been doing everything asked of her by church leaders, parents, even me to an extent(I'm just afraid of driving her away and have relinquished many of my requests for that purpose) but she has heeded my requests and does appear to be making amends. I have zero doubts about some of the concerns you expressed. The timeline fits all the emails, texts and phone logs that I've recovered(she's not that tech savvy to cover these things up - I am very tech savvy, I was just too trusting and dense to ever bother checking up). Her story checks out and I'm comfortable with where things are in that respect. I talked to the OMW a few days before she had her remorse episode and she confirmed their end. It's over. It really is, now she has empathy and compassion for him and wants the best for him, but the romantic part is fading fast I know by the way she talks, it's distinctly different from just a few weeks ago. It's over, I'm assured of it because there are some things that I know matter too much for her to sacrifice for this guy and she's realizing those consequences right now.

I do appreciate your posts. I've left out some details, because I don't want them to be out there for my wife to find one day. I know this is anonymous, but I'm just not comfortable with that. I agree I must be more assertive, but I haven't been complacent, I've been trying to demonstrate patience with her. I love her and care for her, and want her to feel the love I have for her. There are some tactics, like the poly I'm just not comfortable with. I don't think it's necessary based on some of the more personal aspects that have happened between us. I'm not trying to waste your time, I appreciate your advice and I like the bulk of it, but there are a few things I just don't feel are right for my marriage.

I just read a blog post she made on our blog and I know what she's saying is the truth. It just brought tears to my eyes that I know she's working on herself to get over this.

Patience won't save your marriage. A plan of recovery WILL. That sounds like a good excuse to avoid taking necessary action.


And how would you know what is right for your marriage? Do you have experience saving marriages? Your own marriage has crashed on the rocks so it is apparent you don't know how to save a marriage. Your best thinking has led you to a terrible place. If you are insistent on doing it your own way, then I am wasting my time here. You seem to want to cherry pick the advice you are getting here, but that is a recipe for disaster.

It is ludicrous of you to question Sugarcane's objectivity when it is clear you are the least objective person on this thread. Not to mention that she is in a recovered marriage and you are not.

The fact that your wife is probably still in an active affair [as evidenced by your recent discovery] is essential and critical information that anyone who is advising you would have to have. Yet you left that out which means I wasted my time here. I question if you are really serious about recovering your marriage, HH. I know I can't help if I don't have all the facts.

I wish you the best.

The affair is over though, there is no more contact. I'm not cherry picking advice, I'm trying to pick it up where I think we are, I don't think re-hashing the past that's been overcome already is necessary. Just trying to go forward from where we are. I plan on doing the online course with her. I think that will help us tremendously.

Complaining that your wife is still withdrawn and neglecting to mention you just caught her having contact with the OM is not "rehashing the past;" it is imparting critical information about your situation. People can't help you here if you withhold critical details. Good grief.

And yes, you are cherry picking the program. You just told me in your previous post that you were picking and choosing because, in your inexperienced opinion, "there are a few things I just don't feel are right for my marriage." ok.... That is fine with me. I have already recovered my marriage. If you don't want to follow tried and true methods then that is your choice. And it is my choice to make better use of my time.

Projecting our experiences on to posters who show up here in similar circumstances is what we do, HH. It's why we're here! Didn't you come here to find out whether anybody had experience in a situation similar to yours and could add their advice to what Dr Harley has published? Isn't that the point of posting on a peer forum?

Your wife has not done everything you asked of her because she did not end contact several weeks ago. She buried the contact deeper underground and disguised it in the form of checking on his Facebook. Technically she did not "contact" him and was able to look you and your priest in the eye and say she hadn't contacted him at all.

She has empathy and compassion for him?

Yet the romantic feelings have faded away?

Yet you caught them in silent two-way contact?

And she is repulsed by your even touching her, long before it gets to sex?

Good luck with that.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to come across as neglecting your wisdom and advice, I do appreciate it, really I do. I'm grateful for people like you who are willing to go out of your way to help others dealing with the impossible.

At this point, my wife is in another state from me until I finish school. She wants me to come down ASAP, which will likely be sometime this weekend or early next week depending on my circumstances finishing up school. She left to get away from the other man and to get settled. She's not planning on separating from me anymore and she talks about our future together now, even though at times she feels uneasy about it. However, I do have that ODS of 5 weeks hanging over my head later this summer that I simply won't be able to get out of. However, she's living with her parents who are very pro-marriage between us and they live in the middle of nowhere which would make it much more difficult for things to happen. Also, she's on communication lock down, there's simply no way for her to communicate inside the house, which with 3 little children will be the majority of her time and when she goes out one of her parents goes out with her. We're making progress,we really are, it's just not fast enough for my liking.

So my question to you is, what more can I tell you that you'd like to know, and what steps or plan do you recommend I follow at this point(But I'm not doing the polygraph though, that's the one thing I refuse as it's not important to ME, I'm content knowing what I know now, it's truly sufficient).

What specifically should I do myself? And what specifically should my wife do?

So you don't even live together? How did I miss that?

She left 3 days ago, and I'm going down there in just a few more. It was logistics more than anything else due to our circumstances right now in the transitions. I'll be there this weekend ready to begin the online course with her.

You said this on 5/26 and today you tell me you are separated. How do you explain that you didn't bother mention you are separated?

That's all true. I guess I define separation as a split to determine the relationship. this is a split of logistics, it simply had to be and it's VERY short term 7-10 days. She's committed to the relationship now and wants me down there with her ASAP. We're making plans for the rest of the summer to be together. I am just here to finish school and finish getting the house on the market to sell. Her motivation to go was to get as far removed from the OM as possible.

Nowhere do I see any indication that your WW is enthusiastic about recovery. NOWHERE. She's being a good little girl and doing 'what is asked of her' - and that's it.

Yes, you're scared. We get that. Your fear is damaging your recovery efforts. So...how long are you planning to be scared and continue screwing up your recovery efforts?

And when do you plan to DNA test 'your' twins?

O.M.G. Are you saying that you're in the military and are leaving your family this summer?

Between this and your blind devotion to your wayward wife - I am very concerned for you. Do you not see the train wreck ahead of you???

I'll be gone for 5 weeks(worst timing ever) in August(I might be able to see her on weekend leave after week 3 or 4...I dunno). I'm hoping to be far enough into recovery to withstand it. I have no choice.

Well I talked to my wife tonight about the course and she's refusing to do it right now. She feels like we're on an individual journey right now to get right spiritually first. Then we can work on our marriage. She said that after I finish school and my exam later this summer, then we can work on the marriage course. She stated there's no time limit and that she's not going to make any decisions any time soon. She's said she's still ambivalent on what she wants and isn't sure if she can be happy in our relationship, even though prior to the 'deeper' conversation we were laughing and joking about some funny things we found on the internet. I expressed that I have a hard time separating the individual progression from the couple progression. And she said she disagreed. She had quite a few AO, and DJ throughout the conversation, and she's tired of me 'wanting' to be what I'm working towards becoming, a better student, husband and father and that only time can prove that to her.

She said she was looking at pictures today and saw some of our honeymoon and wedding and they depressed her, that she doesn't have very many 'happy' memories from that time. She feels like she's lost who she was, sacrificed herself to become who she thought I wanted her to be. And now she's lost. She wants to get back to her past and rekindle her inner self and become that person again before she's ready to move forward again.

I don't think I committed any love busters. I was very calm and understanding and tried to just listen to how she felt. I requested the course, but she asked me to drop it. She wants me to focus on the tasks at hand and quit with the studying of marriage books and internet searches. She doesn't feel like she can work on 'us' until she feels right with herself.

I'm really okay, disappointed, because I felt we'd made more progress, but in her mind progress can only be made individually right now. This was the complete opposite reaction I was expecting from her, but what gives me hope is that we were in a state of conflict and not withdrawal...right?

Wow it sounds to me like a WW who is still in contact with her OM. You aren't home and I'm sure she's still in contact with him.

She wants to work on herself because she is trying to figure out how she can be with OM and keep her BH on the hook. She's confused with herself because the OM won't leave his BW and she has kicked her BH to the curb so she is thinking "why can't you see that I'm ready to spend my life with you OM?" But she feels he's stalling and so she has to keep you on the line so she can have something if OM doesn't pan out.

Dang this is too common. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be harsh but I want you to see the signs so you can fight for and save this marriage.

Kind of hard to save a marriage when you're not at home to fight for it and to fend of POSOM. I would contact the BW of OM and I bet she knows something more.

That, sir, is what you call one huge pile of foggy-WW horsecrap.



She can't "feel right with herself" because she was a married woman banging some other dude. All of her confusion is her trying to convince herself that somehow what she did is somehow OK - or if you wish to be empathetic, she is trying to see it being forgivable.

At their core, an adulterer KNOWS they have done wrong! Their foggy thinking is an attempt to convince themselves that they are not horrible people, and they wouldn't have been unfaithful without good reason.

THERE IS NEVER A "GOOD" REASON TO BE UNFAITHFUL!


So, why then doesn't she have any "good memories" about the marriage?

Guilt.

Her emotional association to the marriage right now is all about pain/depression/justification. She is BLINDED by her current state and mood. She can't bring up "good" memories because she is associating with her current emotional state - WHICH SHE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR! Good memories of the marriage would counter her current attempt at reasoning away her poor decisions, so even IF she did have good memories, she will ignore them in favor of justifying her behavior.

She's selling crap cupcakes, and you are buying, eating, and smiling.

Definitely not smiling about this. I agree she's still foggy. But I don't see how contact was possibly made right now. I have her phone and computer are on lock down, her parents(confirmed this) have never left her alone since she's been there and she's in a completely different state from the OM. I do agree guilt is affecting her judgement, but I can't change her, her feelings or her behavior. What I can do is continue to work on myself, do what I need to do, and love her the best I know how until she's ready to move forward together. What else can I do? I'm really not interested or willing to go down any plan D routes with her, but being 'roommates', just be cordial with her isn't cutting it for me either, feeling 2nd rate while she sorts out herself isn't working for me.

HH-

You are in 'analysis paralysis'.

And, I dont see a lot of remorse from this woman.

There is a certain set of steps to be followed to make you post-adultery marriage successful and happy as clearly outlined by the books and people here.

Hope has nothing to do with it. You are counting on hope to help.

You are not feeling safe in this marriage and her adultery has caused this. Now, its unfathomable that you are still feeling this way after getting caught.

Some cheaters see their world unfold in front of them and invest everything in making the marriage right upon dday. We've seen others who abandon their families in pursuit of an adulterous life. And, then, we see plenty who maintain a wishy-washy existence making their betrayed spouse miserable. You are living with the latter. Either she gets on-board with you or she doesnt.

You set the terms for your happiness.

This is why i presented the plan to her to do the course, she feels my time should be better spent on finishing school and studying to take my big last exam this summer rather than worry about 'us'. that shes trying to work towards making herself 'right' before she can consider working on 'us'. i presented my case, expressed how i felt and she wasn't willing to do it...right now. she asked me to drop it. she's harboring many ill feelings towards me from our past injustices and wrongs that I have committed in our marriage that im trying to remedy. she doesn't want me to make changes for her, but rather for God. i told her again i can't seperate the two in this instance as i feel there is a oneness in marriage that can't be ignored when battling these problems.

Well she could have a secret phone with her at her parent's house.

I knew of this lady that went to stay with her parents "to find herself" and since her parents were older they took naps. This is when she would go for "walks" or run to the store to call her OM.

I'm just saying you're not with her and she seems like she's still in contact with OM. I think she's keeping you on the side until she finds out if OM will leave his BW for her. She's keeping you on the back burner.

If she has a pay as you go phone you would never know.

If you're so sure she's NC with OM why don't you call BW of OM and see if there's been contact? If she hasn't it can't hurt.

Just got off the phone with my FIL where my W is. He was stating that my W had actually talked quite a bit about our future together and making plans and he was quite optimistic about our future if we kept working on making the proper changes in ourselves.

Not saying any of you are wrong here, but could it just be that my W is just struggling with her feelings still. It's only been 2.5 weeks since she found out the news that the OM was reconciling with his spouse. I mean I know she's still in the fog and in withdrawal from the addiction of the affair. She stated that part of her problem was that she always felt like he'd be there waiting for her, like a safety net and now that it is gone, she feels hurt and used by him. A lot of my plan thus far was to just serve her and try to fill her lovebank while she was here(what Dr. Harley calls plan A), which I did and she recognized it she expressed the changes she's seen in me and was appreciative for my patience and understanding during this time. But that she's just not able to let go of some of those feelings of the affair, and even worse let go of the problems that our marriage faced leading up to the affair?

I'm asking, because maybe this is another possibility of our situation. What she's communicating to me is that she's trying to make the changes in her life that make her the person she wants to be. She's not against me being there, but I can't get down there until early next week. And she admits that it will be better when that happens.

So I'm just confused, so many mixed messages.

Eff the OM, dude.

He's not a part of this situation. She is to tell him to drop dead and commit to your life together, unambiguously.

Anything less is unacceptible. Youre setting yourself up for continued abated misery. Life is way too short for her fence walking.

agreed now how do you do that in a non lovebusting way...thats easier said than done.

You tell her that unless she sends a no contact letter and commits to a program of recovery that this will lead to divorce. The biggest problem I see here is you, HH. Since you have absolutely no standards and are not serious about recovery, neither is she.

I already told you what to say to her so I won't say it again. Are you in frequent contact with the OM's wife?

I can safely admit my wife was completely on-board with what it takes to keep us together about 3 seconds after I broke the news to her that I found out about her infidelity. (You can read all about it on my threads.)

But, it did not stop me from laying out just what it going to take on her part to keep keeping me around as I wrestled with all the emotion and junk we all battle. I did this before I found MB, by the way. I told her I want to know everything about the relationship. No matter how ugly. I told her she is to tell him to get lost. I told her our non-existent sex life is to immediately become the stuff of legends. I told her she is to find real employment and to be a contributor to this household. And a whole bunch of other stuff. Or'se its sayonara me. No ambiguity. No hemming and hawing.

Go ahead and read my stuff and you'll see it wasnt no cakewalk for me mentally but she has been a model MB practitioner since day 1. I needed everyone on this board to smack me around every so often but without her focused attention to those top 4 or 5 things I be a single dad today.

She needs to get on board with your wants and needs and really has no say in what you want. Shes the philanderer. She needs to compensate. She needs to make you safe. She is telling you things that are unacceptible.

Did I read you are going away for a month or 2? She needs to be brought into the program before you do so.

What in the world do you mean by this?

My problem is that i can't threaten divorce, because I am simply unwilling to go through with it and right there that makes the threat empty and hollow. i also believe using divorce as a threat is manipulative and that's what got me into this mess in a lot of ways.

i guess I'm torn because i don't know how to give tough love to her, i honestly believe that will drive her away faster than it will bring us closer, but I'm open to other opinions if they're well justified and backed up with evidence to the contrary.

i guess i wrestle with this because I'm not innocent in this either. i hurt her with my admission of many years of a porn addiction that i am actively ending. so the dynamic isn't its all her fault, i don't blame myself, but i played a contributing role to the deterioration of the marriage relationship.

No one is suggesting that you "threaten" divorce, but that you make that PROMISE if she will not commit to the marriage. That is the logical outcome when a spouse refuses to meet the others needs. Unless you are saying you will stay married under ANY conditions and have absolutely no standards? Because that is the impression you are giving me.

What you are suggesting here is unconditional love, which leads to this very kind of abuse and neglect.

Dr Bill Harley: "The concept of unconditional love in marriage usually refers to a spouse�s lifelong commitment to care for the other spouse regardless of what the other spouse does. I�m in favor of a lifelong commitment to care regardless of unfavorable circumstances (health problems, financial setbacks, and other factors outside a couple�s control that can negatively impact a marriage). But I�m opposed to a lifelong commitment to care for a spouse when that spouse makes marriage-wrecking choices. It tends to give such people unrealistic expectations of entitlement�that they should be cared for, regardless of their willingness to care in return. Neglect and abuse characterize many marriages based on unconditional love."

You can already see the destructive effects of unconditional love on your marriage.

"i guess I'm torn because i don't know how to give tough love to her, i honestly believe that will drive her away faster than it will bring us closer, but I'm open to other opinions if they're well justified and backed up with evidence to the contrary."

Do you have evidence that your strategy works? I would like to see the evidence because so far you are batting a big fat goose egg, bubba! You have pushed her about as far away as one can get.

On the other hand, those of us here who are telling you to set some standards are in recovered marriages. We did not get there by fairy magic and appeasement.

Take your right hand, and stick the middle finger on your belly button.




Now... trace straight down about 10 inches.





Now squeeze hard and fast.




Did that hurt?




It should have.


If it didn't; grow a pair, dude. Quit being afraid of her, quit being afraid of "losing her." You've already lost her. Now, nut up and take back what's yours. Put your damn foot down, and make your conditions known.

Let me add one more thing. You are headed for divorce right now. As long as your wife refuses to do anything to recover your marriage, this is hopeless. So you have nothing to lose.

You don't understand that you have already lost your marriage. Once you accept that truth, you may be more inclined to take this seriously. It appears to me that you are more serious about conflict avoidance than you are about saving your marriage. Avoiding conflict will not save your marriage though.

Yep....

Okay so I've been working on this. Let me get an editor on here to help me through this so it's not a LB and that it accomplishes what is necessary.

To my wife:

I want you to know that I love you and care for you. I'm am heeding the advice I received when I was counseled to not allow the standards of my marriage slip because of our current circumstances. This is a request on my behalf that I am offering to you to make our marriage work and to create a relationship of love and happiness with the person that I am choosing to be my lover and best friend friend for life. This is what I will need from you in order to make this work, to allow me to heal and to make our family the best it can be are:

1) I need to be your top priority in life. Everything else that we're dealing with in life needs to take a backseat to US. This is imperative to me. If we're to make this marriage work and to create a loving environment I need the ambivalency to stop through your actions and it needs to stop today. We can not afford to hope and wait for feelings to change. Feelings follow actions. You can accomplish this by meeting my top emotional needs which right now are Aff, SF, AD and RC with you.

2) I need to feel safe in our relationship going forward. I need to know that this will never happen again and that you are committed to creating love in our relationship. You can accoplish this my agreeing to and following the POJA, PORH, UA of 20+ hours weekly and EP's that we determine via the POJA. This also needs to be enforced by eliminating love busters from our lives.

3) I need you to forgive me for my past injustices and allow me to offer you just compensation for my grievances against you. I also need you to forgive yourself and tear down your emotional walls and be vulnerable with me again. No more roommates. I am your spouse and expect us to behave like spouses do.

4) I need for "US" to attempt to a loving and happy marriage where we are each other's best friends. You can help me to accomplish this by ALLOWING me to meet your most important emotional needs which I suspect are Aff, RC, IC, and Adm. and to expect me to eliminate the many love busters from our relationship.

5) I need you to have faith that we can change and will change and that from this day forward we will WORK towards a loving and happy marriage each and every day for the rest of our lives so that each of us finds ourselves married to our best friend and that our children will see that their mother loves and admires their father and that their father loves and respects his wife.

6) I need you to allow me to know your conditions and requests so that I can be the best husband that you deserve and the best father for our children.

Love your husband.

Does she know what all these terms like RC, POJA, etc mean? It was my understanding that she knew nothing about MArriage Builders?


Okay so I've been working on this. Let me get an editor on here to help me through this so it's not a LB and that it accomplishes what is necessary.

To my wife:

I want you to know that I love you and care for you but I am not willing to stay in a loveless marriage. I'm am heeding the advice I received when I was counseled to not allow the standards of my marriage slip because of our current circumstances. I want to create a relationship of love and happiness with the person that I am choosing to be my lover and best friend friend for life. I am not willing to wait or settle for less.

Your affair has been the most painful thing I have endured in my life. But I am willing to give you an opportunity to earn my forgiveness under certain conditions. Here is what it will take:

1) Commit to a program of recovery now, before it is too late. We can not afford to hope and wait for feelings to change. Feelings follow actions so if the actions that serve to create love are not in place, it will never happen.

2) I need to feel safe in our relationship going forward because I cannot endure another affair. I need to know that this will never happen again and that you are committed to creating love in our relationship and protecting me in the future. You can accoplish this my agreeing to and following the POJA, PORH, UA of 20+ hours weekly and EP's that we determine via the POJA.[melody's note: extraordinary precautions are not negotiable and as such, are not subject to POJA.] This also needs to be enforced supported by eliminating love busters from our lives.

3) I need you to forgive me for my past injustices and allow me to offer you just compensation for my grievances against you. I also need you to forgive yourself and tear down your emotional walls and be vulnerable with me again. No more roommates. I am your spouse and expect us to behave like spouses do. [Melody's note: you didn't have the affair so this is inappropriate]

4) I need for "US" to attempt to a loving and happy marriage where we are each other's best friends. You can help me to accomplish this by ALLOWING me to meet your most important emotional needs which I suspect are Aff, RC, IC, and Adm. and to expect me to eliminate the many love busters from our relationship. redundant

5) I need you to have faith that we can change and will change and that from this day forward we will WORK towards a loving and happy marriage each and every day for the rest of our lives so that each of us finds ourselves married to our best friend and that our children will see that their mother loves and admires their father and that their father loves and respects his wife. Melody's note: faith is not what is needed here, ACTIONS are. Faith will come from evidence that this is going to work

6) I need you to allow me to know your conditions and requests so that I can be the best husband that you deserve and the best father for our children.

I know that I have not been the best husband in the past and I am willing to make the necessary changes to make you happy. But I cannot save our marriage alone. If this is to work, it will take a committment on both our parts. Not later, but now.

Love your husband.

HH, I think this attitude is part of the problem and explains why your wife doesn't take you seriously. It is WEIRD and patronizing for you to ask her for forgiveness when she has just assaulted you with the worst thing that can happen to a person. It is like the wife who got the crap beat out of her when she didn't have dinner ready apologizing to the wife beater for not having supper ready on time. It minimizes the assault and grossly exaggerates the "crime" of not having dinner ready on time. I agree that porn use can be viewed the same as an affair, however, the remedy is not the same and it should be not treated the same.

I didn't see anything in your email about giving her an opportunity to earn your forgiveness so I am presuming you are also giving her unconditional forgiveness. A big mistake. Here is Harley's advice in Can't We Forgive and Forget:

here

There is nothing here that tells me that the two of you have to 'get right spiritfully' separately. Did you tell her that this is a part of your healing journey TOGETHER? Because she's foggy. Ignore this. She's foggy. Ignore this.

Why are you reading that crap? Blog posts from a wayward are like drunken ramblings of an alcoholic. Why are you taking that seriously?

I love this, thank you. Lol.

I just got off the phone with her today, and she seemed a lot more upbeat and happy after a good nights rest and our twins were less stressful for her today. She admitted she was in a bad mood yesterday.

I'm still working on that letter and plan to give it to her and talk to her about. The POJA and other acronyms are something we can discuss together.

As far as asking forgiveness, I am in need of it. I have been a less than perfect husband and I am in need of forgiveness as well. I do agree she did do the 2nd worst thing to me possible, however, I have wronged her too and I do desire forgiveness from those things.

Oh, WHATEVER. She is an addicted wayward. They talk like that.

The 2nd worst thing? No, it is the very worst thing.

Your wrongs can be discussed in another context and will be addressed in recovery. It makes no sense to include it here when there has been an affair. Asking for her forgiveness when she has wronged you only serves to muddy the waters and take the focus off the key issue. It comes across as patronizing. The key issue is recovering your marriage from her affair. That remedy will certainly address and correct your wrongs but the focus needs to be on recovering from her affair.

If she is not familiar with those terms, they need to come out. Don't write a letter that your receiver can't possibly understand, lest she gets stuck trying to decipher your acronyms. She needs to hear your message, not get irritated trying figure out acronyms.

The 2nd worst thing. The worst thing would be to betray me like this AND take my kiddos away from me via a D. That's MUCH worse than this to me at least.

Will fix, thanks.

Okay went through and edited my letter today. Thanks for the help on that. I was wanting to add some ideas of what we should do together during our UA time. A couple ideas I had were to read HNHN and love busters together and to do the online course together as well as do the EN questionaire's.

Any other imperative things that should be done early on in the recovery during UA time?

Thanks.

HH, Im afraid you are putting the cart before the horse and havent killed her affair dead yet.

Has she given her guy the final "F-off" letter?

She has embarked on her personal journey to "nookie-ville" with her turd while you are doing a tap dance around her.

We are now 10 pages in to this thread and you are going lose the patience of some really good advisors on this matter until you get this woman to commit to no-freaking-contact for life.

No personal journey
No finding herself
No time off

UA time doesnt work so good while she's pining for a deviant while she's sitting with you.

no contact was established by a 3rd party

Okay here's the update:

WW and I have been in a new state living together with her folks for the past 4 weeks, she's been here for 6 weeks now.

I presented my plan to her(seen above) and she rejected it 'for now' until my exam is over(next week), but she has relented on some things like spending time talking with each other nightly. The 20+ UA is NOT in place, nor will it be in the immediate future, unfortunately. We do spend a lot of time together, it's just not undivided right now. We're currently working with our church leader and a marriage counselor(who is using a lot of MB principles, which impresses me). The counseling(which is virtually free and she's been receptive to) has seemed to help and I do see her heart softening from where it was.

No contact has remained firmly in place, I can verify this because I've been with her virtually every second of every day(if not me, then her parents).

We've been hashing out a lot of our differences. She tells me I'm a great father, been a good husband. She still won't touch me. She says she doesn't want to take the kids away, but that she contemplates divorce a lot. She doesn't 'feel' love for me.

We've talked this over a lot. I keep telling her I believe ACTIONS precede feelings, but she's firmly entrenched in the idea that she can't 'act' until she feels something for me.

I feel emotionally drained as I try to serve her and deposit love units by being an excellent father and giving her time to recharge as she handles 3 kids under the age of 4. It seems like she's often kinder and more thoughtful towards me during the day, but then when we talk at night it seems like she's 'still in the fog'.

She says if we divorce, the other guy has nothing to do with it. It's that she doesn't 'love me' and she's unsure how to get to that love. And when I say that, she means it in an eros way. She says she has philos love for me, but not eros(which is a step up from just a few weeks ago).

I caught her in a dichotomy the last night. She's tells me that she doesn't love me(the way a spouse ought to), but that she's tried so much in our marriage and questions why NOW do I 'start trying'(which isn't true, I've been a pretty darn good husband for some time, definitely not perfect, and I have mistreated her and have my fair share of sins and problems as a human being, but I've always tried to treat her well). I said to her, well which is it? Have you always tried to love me, or have you not loved me? It can't be both? Either you loved me and something changed in you, or you haven't put everything into the marriage that you're claiming you have.

Our anniversary is coming up next month and then I head of to Military ODS for 5 weeks a week later.

She talks as if she's going to move forward with me to my first duty station, and she's going to my family's reunion at the end of the month on the other side of the U.S.

So things are much improved. I just don't know how to help her 'break out of the misty-fog' she's in about her lack of feelings for me. She sometimes believes she can love me again, but it's intermingled with thoughts and feelings of divorce as well.

Do I just continue on in my plan A for the next few weeks, and allow the ODS for 5 weeks to be a plan B to give us some time away?

She says she knows shes not in ant state of mind or condition to make a life-altering decision and won't make a decision for a while either. Though we're both emotionally exhausted even though our communication and openess is at an all-time high.

My kids mean the world to me. I can't imagine my life without my wife and kids. It's the central most important thing to me, nothing else really matters. I want my wife back, and I want to raise my children with her. I need serious help.

Plan B would be a disaster in your situation. This separation will make it that much harder to recover your marriage. Is there no way to get out of this?

Other than that, you should give Plan A your very best shot. Stop telling her she contradicts herself. Just tell her you want to learn to do a better job of meeting her needs. Tell her the past is gone and you want your future with her to be great.

In the meantime, I would get the book, Fall in Love, Stay in Love and leave it lying around. When you are with her, try to avoid any relationship talk and be as pleasant as possible.

Here's another good clip.
Radio clip on how we get back to the way when we were first married
Tell us what you think.

There's really no way out of it. I'm OWNED by the military for the next 4-5 years. My wife is in charge of finding our family housing on or near the base and she's excited to do it. I don't think the separation will necessarily be an awful thing. I think I agree the relationship talk is bringing us down. We had a really good evening out together going for a jet ski ride together on the same jetski at her parents lake house.

Right now my wife doesn't associate positive memories with our courtship and dating time period. We had a 6 month break up before we got back together and eventually got married. She says that she married me because she knew I cared about her and loved her, but that she didn't necessarily believe she loved me the way she 'ought' to.

It would be like leaving a dying patient and coming back in 5 weeks. Your marriage is on its very last legs, suffering from emotional detachment..............and you leave. Which only makes the detachment worse. You can't fix a marriage if you aren't together. The reason you don't understand how damaging it is to your marriage is because your marriage is on the rocks. If you ever recover, you will understand why separation is so damaging to your marrige.

Have you gone to your commander and asked for a leave?

That is probably fog speak though. EVERY wayward rewrites the history of her marriage and her feelings because she has a new point of comparison.

But that is beside the point. The goal is create romance and passion NOW. It doesn't matter if you had it in the past or not. If you didn't have it in the past, then obviously that would not be your goal

If you listen to the clip Dr. Harley explains the important of 15 hrs of UA and what you need to do to fall back in love.

D-Day was back in March
Direct No contact was establish towards the end of April/Early May
Indirect and absolute No contact was established towards the middle of May

I know from the OM's wife and mutual friends that they are reconciling and working on their marriage currently.

How long does the "FOG" take to lift typically? I mean I've seen certain lifts of it in various forms and it seems like she has moments of being 'normal' again at times, then to recoil back into the fog.

Is this typical?

She truly believes what she felt was real(the feelings she felt were real, but were grounded in lies and deceit making in non-authentic and unsustainable).

And that what she can't get past, how she FEELS about me. Nothing else matters, except THAT feeling to her right now. She has so many guards up to protect herself from allowing me to MEET her needs. I take what I can get in terms of meeting her needs. That's the most frustrating part is feeling like my hands are tied behind my back to meet her needs. I just keep on going, but it's DRAINING to not have your own needs met, and to attempt to try to meet someone else's needs only to have it met with such resistance.

Her attitude is this: You go to your corner, I'll go to my corner and work on improving yourself. Then we'll work on us.

I agree, but I've presented this to her, and she's not willing to do it, right now.

How long does the "FOG" take to lift typically?

No answer is possible to this question, because the "wayward", like the "meteorological" fog strengthens and weakens as environmental factors impact it.

"Disturbance" as in wind currents and BS putting fog-destructing elements in place (such as monitored NC and snooping), accelerate the dispersal. Warmth, as in the sun's impact and the effects of effective UA and EN supply, do the same thing.

This is why Mel (and we all) are concerned about your mandatory absence from your WW at this critical time. You will not be able to perform either of those vital elements while separated.

So until you must leave turn up the heat of your actions, and get as much as possible dispersed prior. There will almost assuredly be some reformation of fog while you're away.

I mean I understand everyone is different, but aren't there like ballpark estimates to the length of the fog? I thought Dr. Harley said 3 weeks gets you through the intense withdrawal symptoms, but the latent ones can last a while longer? 3 months? 6 months? a year?

I totally agree about being gone for 5 weeks. However, I'm just stuck between a rock and a hard place. I have a lot of positives in place as in her parents are squarely in my corner in terms of the marriage. And she'll be living with them throughout the time I'm gone. I've been able to confide in her dad explicitly about what's going on(we have a really good relationship) and I know that she trusts and respects his opinions on these matters. Her mom is completely dumbfounded and baffled by her behavior and wonders why she won't just forgive me for my misdeeds and move forward. She'll also be continually working with our church leader and MC while I'm gone and both of these sources are extremely pro-marriage. So I'm just going to have to have faith that this is enough for that timeframe. I'm definitely concerned about being gone, but it may give her time to miss me and really appreciate me more all that I bring to her life, especially as a father to our extremely young children. I have no other options.

It will only add to the sense of detachment and take it longer for you to recover your marriage. You can't fall in love again if you are not there to meet her needs on a daily basis. That is the point. I guess you will have to just take the hit since you can't get out of this.

Do her parents know about her affair?


Dr Harley said it takes about 3 weeks to get through intense withdrawal symptoms. It usually takes up to 6 months to get through the fog, though. In your case, your wife was just in contact with him in May.

How do you know she is not in contact with him now? Does she go on his facebook page? Does she have any pictures?

Did you explain the reasons to your MIL? Anyone who is familar with wayward wives is not baffled at all. It is classic behavior of a WW.

Typically 6 months from D-day? Or 6 months from firm no-contact?

She really won't let me meet many of her needs outside of being a father to our children. I can't touch her affectionately. She doesn't like it when I call her sweetie or dear. She will pray with me at night, but no longer holds my hand during the prayers, in fact she tried once about 2 weeks ago and freaked out saying it brought back memories of the OM.

We're living in the boonies at her parents house, I'm here 24/7 with her throughout the day, she spends most the day taking care of kids, along with her parents. I'm positive there's been zero contact, I've also had eblaster on her phone and computer. So I'm not worried about it. She's trying to change her heart, but is having a difficult time with her 'feelings'. She says she's done things in our marriage in the past that made her uncomfortable for the sake of being "the good wife" and she won't do anything until she is COMFORTABLE with it.

Her parents know all about the affair and they know quite a bit of the details as well.

I take my exam this week and then we're having a family reunion her at her parents house where all her siblings and their families will be here. Then we go out to my families reunion a week after that on the other side of the country. So we're going to be having a lot 'family time' together over the next 3-4 weeks.

She's trying to change her heart, but is having a difficult time with her 'feelings'.

Did she really say that, and you listen to it, each with a straight face? What the HELL can she do with her "heart"? Shall I translate about the "feelings ?

"If I go through the motions, maybe HH will lay off the necessity of my participating in a plan that has proven to work, and he'll settle for a loveless co-existence."

Feelings are whatever, and as varied as, the person wants to portray them as. Example? "I'm nervous about my job interview," and "I'm excited about my job interview," are basically the same thing. Both reflect the body's reaction to elevated levels of adrenaline and other hormones to assist the speaker in an event of some uncertainty and importance.

It is how the speaker chooses to accept and categorize the situation that stamps the difference.

Someone buying in to the program, not having seen results one day 1, would say, "Okay, I've started it, gotten some experience with it, and will be better at it tomorrow" Someone hoping the program will fail and be abandoned, will spit out the cow-dung that WW did to you.

She says she's done things in our marriage in the past that made her uncomfortable for the sake of being "the good wife" and she won't do anything until she is COMFORTABLE with it.

What things? Sexual activities? Baking cookies for the PTA? Traitorous dealings with enemies of the USA? You gotta help us here, HH.

Up to 6 months from the last contact because that is when withdrawal BEGINS. Even looking at his facebook page will put her back to day 1 of withdrawal, which is why I asked about that.

Yeah, Sexual acts in our past. We had a long discussions about them 2.5 years(after first "emotional" affair w/1 kiss) ago about what she felt was acceptable and what wasn't, how she felt about it and I stopped then. It seems like she's so focused on those things today that I stopped years ago and yet I've respected those wishes since that day. She says things have been wrong in our marriage for a while and she chalks it up to my porn usage and that our relationship was filled with lust. I've owned up to these problems and ceased them and put up EP's to prevent relapses. Her problem today is she has something to compare me to. Sex has always been sub-par since day 1 and now she says she KNOWS she has a libido and that she's not sure she can have that with me based on our past. She won't continue in a loveless(it's mostly just sexless/affectionless right now) marriage and that's why she contemplates a divorce. She admits I'm a good father and a pretty good husband overall and that I try hard at those things even though I have my own bits of selfishness at times.

I mean I can't MAKE her change. I can't MAKE her love me. She wants to do these things for the 'right' reasons, because she "FEELS" something for me. She says she did that for too long, felt OBLIGATED to give sex and she wants to DESIRE sex with me before she'll even think of doing it again. She's not going to go the route of: "Fake it til you make it".

I've used this analogy before.

Would you change the oil in your WW's car if she asked? Even if you couldn't feel it in your heart? Even if she had at times in the past let it go longer than 3,000 miles?

You know the punchline, I'll bet. Changing oil involves getting in more awkward positions, takes longer to clean up from, and, depending on what state you live in, unlike SF,can legally be done by someone else. But if she asked you, you'd comply, right?

Just highlighting the ugliest points of your note:

She says things have been wrong in our marriage for a while...Her problem today is she has something to compare me to...she KNOWS she has a libido and that she's not sure she can have that with me based on our past...She admits I'm a good father and a pretty good husband...she wants to DESIRE sex with me before she'll even think of doing it again. She's not going to go the route of: "Fake it til you make it".

Sooooo, she enjoys your child-raising assistance, with NO recompense. Hey, let's not try fighting human development, my friend. The long path to adulthood for human progeny REQUIRED the species to develop some way to keep the male in proximity for YEARS, and not just dashing back in when the female was in estrus. That glorious adaptation was the availability of sexual activity virtually year-round. It's not "unevolved" to expect some sort of that behaviour; on the contrary, it is an indication of our HIGHER evolution.

Tell her this. As plainly as you read it here. The male human stays around to assist the female (ie: supply ENs) in exchange for her doing the same. There is an implied contract between them, and has been since man first walked upright.

She won't continue in a loveless(it's mostly just sexless/affectionless right now) marriage and that's why she contemplates a divorce.

If she can/will not understand/accept the underlined in a fairly short period of time, grant her her wish. She has unilaterally voided the contract.

I don't really get the oil change analogy. Sounds like apples and kumquats to me, I mean you can't compare sexual union between a husband and wife with changing the oil in her car. It's so much more than that which is why this is so much worse that she's so against it. I've never stopped being her husband through all of this. She claims that I'm just NOW stepping up, but I know that's not true. Sure I could have and should have been better in a lot of things, but these are just excuses. I think she's ultimately upset with herself because she's quit on me. She feels the guilt and the remorse and this is how she's coping with it. I just want my wife back. I miss having my wife in my life. I don't understand why it's THIS difficult for her to come back to me and be my wife again.(Any WW's care to chime in, to give me some perspective on why it's hard to re-commit to BH?) I know we have a lot of issues to work through, however, I'm not willing to sacrifice my family over this. My children deserve both of us in their lives. I'm not willing to divorce her over this. She's acknowledged that we have to get to that level of sexual fulfillment for us to work out and I agree it's essnetial for us. She's claiming that SF is her top emotional need right now. It's never been high on her priority list until the affair, though. I think affection and admiration are two of her tops along with domestic support and recreational companionship. She tells me that you don't have to be together to have love for each other and uses her friend from Canada as an example. However, throughout our marriage she was always asking me to spend more time going on walks, hikes, camping, activities like that etc. When we went on the jet ski ride together, I felt she enjoyed it a lot. So I just think she's incredibly lost in the 'fog'.

However, I know I need to be patient with her, but I don't believe patience is sitting on my hands and waiting for her feelings to change. I've BEEN patient. I just don't know how to help her get on board with active patience. It has to come from another source than me. If I recommend it, it's toast before it starts. I need someone else whom she respects and trusts to step up and make these recommendations to her for her to really get it. She's come a long way from just 6 weeks ago, so I gotta have faith that she's going to continue to progress over these next 6 before I have to go.

HH, Steve Harley might be able to sell her on the prospect of restoring romantic love to your marriage. Can you afford counseling with him?

Yes, but I've already suggested this, and she's not willing to at this time. Honestly, I think she'd be more willing after the reunions and my military training are over with to do something like this. The good news is she still talks about the future together with me and makes plans about us after my military training.

The MC is my best bet right now. She's agreeable to him and he's saying a lot of the similar things that MB's talks about.

Is there much difference between SH and JC as far as marriage coaching goes? Does one have more specialty than the other for different scenarios?

But, he has not been effective in selling her on a plan to restore the love in your marriage. He is not your best bet if he is not effective. That is why I am suggesting Steve. Steve could tell you what to say to persuade her to get on the phone with him. And once she gets on the phone, he can be very persuasive.

The besT time to get her on board is before you go. You have lots of time with her now and that would be ideal.

We've only seen him a couple times due to the move to another state. I saw a lot of progress in that short time, so I'm willing to give it more time. I'll talk to him indivudally this week, and he's expressed the same concern in the past, that restoring love is tantamount to moving forward.

I mean you can't compare sexual union between a husband and wife with changing the oil in her car. It's so much more than that which is why this is so much worse that she's so against it.

Sorry dude, it is EXACTLY the same.

You exhibit evidence of "neutering" from the estrogen-fueled intelligentsia that controls the society we live in.

As long as you are willing/eager to be led around by the nose by the women (in the locus-personae of WW) who claim some kind of "primacy" of the SF EN above all others, you and she will stand no chance of making a go of your union.

Here's how this started: Bring home a chunk of sabre-tooth tiger to feed the youngsters and stay-at-home neanderthal women -> get sex. Show up without tiger -> read neanderthal "PlayCave".

Ten million years later, you're chipping in your tiger-meat and accepting "I have a problem with having sex with you." Then you complain to us, but disagree with the truth of the previous paragraph.

Sadly, the society that we inhabit will not let your progeny starve. So the ability you have to withhold your tiger-meat pending a little WW-affection is diluted. But diluted or not, you're willing to accept the crappy exchange (tiger for no....alternative satisfaction) without even the fight!

Straight up dude, you cannot ASK her to change. You may have the capacity to COMPEL her to change. But you won't do that, will you?


**edit**

I'll talk to him indivudally this week, and he's expressed the same concern in the past, that restoring love is tantamount to moving forward.

Oh, dear GOD......Sorry, I've tossed my grenade for the week. Tex, do you want to take this one?

What do you suggest I do NG? Concrete example? I don't think demanding sex will make the situation better. She knows I want to be intimate, she knows I want her to touch me and love me physically. She's even acknowledged that's a worthy desire to have as a spouse, but she feels she's incapable of providing that until she feels 'COMFORTABLE' with it again. I'm at a loss of what to do without lovebusting. I mean she literally freaked out and withdrew from me physically when she offered and attempted to hold my hand during a couple's prayer together a couple weeks ago. How is THAT overcome by anything I DO?

I read a post a few weeks ago about a WW who was posting on here. I can't remember her SN, but essentially she was complaining how she felt like SF was her husband's way of 'using' her, she felt used by it and wouldn't give that to her husband because of that sentiment. She was someone who used to be overweight, but had lost a lot of weight and that was a contributing factor to her affair. Someone gave a great analogy(can't remember it very well) about how giving your spouse SF is not being 'used' for your body. Not sure if anyone else is familiar with this post and that analogy that was used there. I'd be interested in reading it again if I could locate it.

It was WPG, and her current situation and yours are similar. In each case the spouse wanted his/her EN supplied, but not reciprocate to our poster's needs.

As for turning your WW around, only two methods are espoused here. Plan A her into grateful acknowledgemnt that you might be someone worthy of some SF. Plan B her, cutting off HER EN's to show her how barren life can be with an emotionally absent spouse.

Your call, but Plan A is essentially what you've been attempting to do for a while, (Holding hands while praying, sympathetically listening to her barf up nonsense about her "feelings" not connecting with her "heart", etc) only resulting in the pain/frustration/confusion that comes through to us in your postings. And once Plan A is known to be a failure.....

HH-This is one my favorite NGisms, actually. If you read a few times, you may get the gist of it. To me, it describes the sub-par goings-on in my bedroom to what I asked for, nay, demanded after I caught my wife cheating on me.

After she was caught having a sexual relationship with another man, I chose to stay married but I made several parts of marriage designated for change and at the top of the list was SF.

Your current state of sexuality in your marriage (and certainly what is was prior to dday) seems to be similar to mine as well. Its not a job, er..so to speak, not a respsonsibilty, not a 'oh geez, again with this horny freak?' situation, its about a partnership she signed onto 15 years prior, faltered on terribly, and then I gave her another chance to live up to her end of.

I dont ask my wife for SF anymore. I simply TELL her. Or, in fact, in a major change of normal course of action, she'll actual take the initiative. This is not to boast, well, may be a bit. This is an extremely normal thing in happy marriages I have come to learn. Who knew? She has said to me in a moment of passion that depriving me of a normal sex life is near the top of her regrets.

I remember in the bad old days, I used to have to beg for it with things like, 'you have the sexuality of a nun', and 'all I need is 10 minutes, maybe 5, of your time', and other things to badger her into bed. A married man commited to his wife had to beg for a normal function between couples?

On my list of things that will change was that above scene. After 13-14 months of a much improved SF life, Im not sure how (or why) I lived so long without it being normal. The affair itself is emasculating and add in begging for your wife's affection while she was having sex with someone else. Uh-uh. No more. Life is way too short after knowing what she was doing.

I dont know if my interpretation of NGs analogy is quite what he was getting at but I recommend you get to place where 'cleaning her oil' is something you do whether its scheduled or not.

I am plan A-ing all the way through right now. I'm providing her with what she's expressed to me that she wants. Things have gotten dramatically better. Last night she was even talking about the distant future of when I could be potentially stationed on a ship and she being home along by herself for that time with the kids while she was talking to her folks.

We're going to have a semi-natural plan B in effect in essence when I go to military training in August for 5 weeks.

Do you have a link to that post? I can't seem to find that post. Thanks.

I guess I may be too dense and missed the meaning of the analogy altogether again as I think you confused me even more to what he was actually trying to communicate. I appreciate your post, though.

The other dynamic I am faced with is that she thinks I'm just as culpable because I wasn't honest and open with her about my pornography usage in the past. This REALLY bothers her a lot. We talked about it before we got married and I thought I was past it then, but the fact that I never came to her about it after we were married has been a major hold up to her. She says she knows she's done worse, but this still bothers her and it's something I've stopped and have placed all the proper EP's to avoid it in the future too. She feels like I've been unfaithful to her because of it and that she wasn't/isn't good enough.

Sure I can dismiss those feelings, but this is the reality I'm faced with, her perception is still my reality(even as fog-ridden as they may seem).

You're right. It won't. Demanding sex would make things worse.


Follow Mel's advice:

I agree with MelodyLane's advice, and here is why: according to Dr. Harley, women need two things before they will begin to feel like having sex: an emotional connection, and the prospect of enjoyment. In other words, they need to be in LOVE with you, and they need to feel that it is likely that you will make love in a way they enjoy.

Plan A (and/or the making of MASSIVE love bank deposits) generates that emotional connection. It does not feel vital to a man, but it feels OH SO VITAL to a wife! Of course it is best if she can start making love to her husband as soon as possible (and if so you should take GREAT CARE to make it EXTREMELY enjoyable for her!) in order to build the habit and positive associations, but you should not do anything that would be perceived as forcing her or pressuring her to have sex, or even showing yourself to be impatient, as you'll be making love bank withdrawals and making it even harder for her to ever feel like making love.

Dr. Harley says that once that romantic love threshold is crossed, it is a SUDDEN change, and men call him up wondering if their wives have taken hormones or something, because suddenly they want to be sexual with the man they love. It comes on without warning, not gradually.

Please give a listen to the Marriage Builders radio clip I am about to post. What you want is for your wife to be in love with you, because then her instincts will prompt her to feel like meeting your emotional needs. Women have much MUCH less stamina than a man does for meeting emotional needs when their own emotional needs are not being met. You have to come through with your own end of making love bank deposits, possibly for longer than you expect and to a greater degree than you expect.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=68

This is very, very typical. Even when men have done NOTHING at all blameworthy, wives typically blame them for their affairs, sometimes even long into recovery.

It does not prevent recovery, and it does not prevent you from having a good marriage. What could prevent that, though, is trying to have a discussion to straighten this out. Don't try to deny, contradict, fix, debate, or whatever to her feelings. She feels you are to blame, and that's okay. It doesn't change anything about the program or recovery.

By the way, I suggest becoming a regular listener to Dr. Harley's radio show program. It gives a very, very accurate picture about what to expect from a (formerly) wayward wife. Some of it can be very demoralizing, and counterintuitive. And that can be so disappointing that you start making love bank withdrawals trying to get your needs met in order to recover. She OUGHT to be begging for the chance to do anything possible to make it up to you, but that is not going to happen, and if it did it would be so degrading to her that I promise you would never recover a happy marriage.

I asked her what are the 3 things I could do that would help make her feel more loved by me, and then asked what 3 things I could stop doing to help frustrating her.

She won't answer them, she says it's because they deal with intimacy. She correlates intimacy and affection as nearly the same thing. I'm convinced Affection is her #1 EN, but she won't let me meet that Need. #2 I think is recreational companionship - this is hard to do because we have 5 month old twins that dominate our time and energy right now.

I've listened occasional to the radio program, it's definitely good.

The main EN's that I'm 'allowed' to make are DS, FC, and FS. I can't be affectionate. IC typically has led to relational talk because if it's about plans, or dreams the RELATIONSHIP inevitably comes up because she has feelings of contemplating divorce. She hasn't gone through with a divorce for 2 main reasons.

1) She's admitted she's not in the proper state of mind to make a life-altering decision and
2) The kids - she's admitted I'm a great father and doesn't want to take the kids away from me nor the me from the kids.

She's stated that romantic love is a must, but that she doesn't have it for me. However, when I TRY to meet her needs she resists - I KNOW for a fact AFFECTION is #1. She's telling me it's SF, but I'm fairly certain that's not a top 1 or 2 for her. Aff and RC have always been her top 2 throughout our marriage. Just now after her affair has she placed such high priority to SF. So how do we achieve 'romantic' love when I'm not allowed to meet her top needs, even if SF truly is #1, it's not happening. I can't hug her, she even gets upset when I call her sweetie sometimes. She doesn't want me to tell her I love her either. She views all that as 'pressure'.

We've done a few things together and each time I think they've helped she'll later tell me that she was completely uncomfortable doing it and makes it sound like a LB withdrawal.

So I'm at a loss of WHAT TO DO. Basically I feel like she's telling me, SIT ON YOUR HANDS and WAIT for her to change herself.

You're right. Very good advice. I've acknowledged my errors and apologized for how I have made her feel. I'm turning over a new leaf and am trying my best to be a better husband and become more in tune to her needs. She says things have always come difficult or unnatural in terms of creating the feeling of love in our relationship. That marriage should be easy and natural(I think there are times that's true, but reality has a way of changing that from being there ALWAYS. IMO).

You will have to achieve all of this without her handing you the map.

It is possible.

The reason she is not willing to let you meet her intimate emotional needs is she is in withdrawal. It's all in Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts. Review them regularly.

I agree she's still in withdrawal, it's been almost 2 full months since strict no contact(no more visiting FB page)--- I'm a dense male, obviously. So I'll know she's coming out of withdrawal (which could take upwards of 6 months or so) when she's willing to be affectionate with one another again?

Hi HH

I'm almost through your thread and have a few suggestions for you. My ex is former military so I know how the deployments suck especially being bad timing but there are still things you can do to Plan A your WW even while gone. Will be back later tonight.

Thanks, any advice on that subject could be very beneficial. I'm dreading those 5 weeks being away from my family. What HORRIBLE timing indeed. I was suppose to go in June, but thankfully I was able to not go until August.

Oh something I haven't mentioned that my wife said today...
we were discussing moving our stuff in August to our new location because the movers have to come out and check out the house before the move tomorrow. My wife has agreed in the past to get rid of our bed( 1 - Because hello MAJOR trigger, and 2) it's run it's course as well). She asked me what I wanted to do with the bed, get rid of it there or move and and get rid of it.

So her thought processes are to stay in the marriage, though she says her 'feelings' struggle with the idea of divorce.

Is this normal?

You asked on another thread what is Plan C.

Please read. BSs...Plan C is not a plan

I'm avoiding relationship talk outside of our MC we're seeing right now. So I was wondering if I could get some assistance on dealing with my feelings about a few things my wife has said that really bother me.

First, I asked her a few weeks ago to admit that her feelings for the OM weren't real(whether or not I should have or not is irrelevant, I understand now I shouldn't have). She wouldn't do it. This still bothers me. I think if she read SAA she'd figure out a lot faster what really happened to her.

Second, I really want a re-assurance that for us as a couple, divorce is not an option, because I don't think that going forward we're going to do the things to each other that would warrant a divorce. I believe that successful marriage learn to work through their problems and that when divorce is taken off the table negotiating in good faith can occur. Is this an unreasonable request or expectation on my part?

Third, I believe Love is verb and that the feeling of love is the fruit of the action of love. It bothers me that we're just roommates at this point and that we're not working as a team to restore romantic love. She feels that she can't actively love until the feeling of love is present. I guess that the crux of this thread for me, is that I feel completely handicapped in restoring 'romantic' love. That meeting my wife's emotional needs shouldn't be a love buster and it frustrates me entirely.

We don't fight, we don't argue much, we have a very healthy and cooperative parenting relationship, but the 'romantic' love is missing. I feel like she killed off any lingering of 'romantic' love between us with her affair and that she's comparing her illusion of infatuation with what real romantic love is. Is this a disrespectful judgment on my part to feel this way?

Fortunately, MSS did not suggest "demanding" SF, which would be the favorite "phantom bogey-man" of the feminist fringe. In reality, staying with my base analogy, males could no more "demand" SF than females could "demand" an oil change. Read his words again:

its about a partnership she signed onto...years prior, faltered on terribly, and then I gave her another chance to live up to her end of.

I dont ask my wife for SF anymore. I simply TELL her. Or, in fact, in a major change of normal course of action, she'll actual take the initiative. This is not to boast, well, may be a bit. This is an extremely normal thing in happy marriages I have come to learn. Who knew? She has said to me in a moment of passion that depriving me of a normal sex life is near the top of her regrets.

Allowing for certain degrees of variation, this should approximate the NORM of a mutually supportive and loving marriage. (All bets may be off for irrepairable physical/emotional pathologies affecting either party.)

Oh gosh, how oh how do I make sure I'm plan A-ing all the time? I am constantly reeling from some of the 'open and honest' talk of her feelings.

Get rid of the bed if it is an A trigger. Get a new one and hopefully you and the Mrs. will christen it soon. Don't drag A triggers, especially something as intimate as the marital bed, into your new house.



Her feelings were real, HH. That is a bitter pill for BSs to swallow. A BS would love to see their WS hate the AP but that doesn't always happen. Sometimes it does but it also depends on the type of A and a bunch of other factors.


You are being unrealistic. There are always options with anything in life. To say otherwise is denial and delusion. You may not like or want that option but it is always an option.


It is normal to be frustrated and of course you are bothered that your WW is withdrawn. Every BS faces frustrations especially if there is withdrawl involved. See #1 about a WS's feelings. You can go round and round thinking about this...not matter what the answer is or how you choose to see it, it pretty much sucks. There is nothing loving about an affair. I'm sure someone else can explain this better.


That is not a DJ. That is pretty much what a withdrawn WS does...especially WWs.

The family reunions - Plan A by having fun with WW and the kids. You can also use this time to cement relationships with her family members who may lend support if WW is still withdrawn and not getting with the program. Keep these events upbeat. If WW wants to be a sour puss, you still keep upbeat and enjoy your family time.

Plan Aing while away for training -

If you will have access to a computer, you can skype with her if it is allowed. Or use Facetime if that is an option. Ck to see what forms of communication are allowed so you can "see" each other. If you can do this and she seems resistant, tell her you want to see your children and don't argue about it. She will have to be present in some capacity for you to see the kids. And if she still hides you can still check in with the inlaws and see your kids.

Hide cards or love notes either in places she will come across them at various times or get the inlaws involved...give them to MIL/FIL and ask them to leave one out for her to find every other day (or whenever) so that she is reminded that you are thinking about her. They don't have to be long and syrupy...and shouldn't be. Short and sweet; a funny joke to make her laugh; and old pic of you two...think of the things that make her smile.

Flowers - another way to make a nice gesture and let her know you are thinking of her. You can pre-order for future delivery. No need to go overboard but one or two arrangements while you are gone can't hurt. Card should be short and sweet. And if she absolutely hates flowers for some reason, there are other things you can use in lieu of that. Point is make the effort. Worst case you score additional points with the inlaws who will see your effort too and MIL can enjoy them. You may even send MIL an arrangement...always a nice thank you.

Back with more soon...

Here's a good thread on deployments.
Amazin's deployment Thread

Just wanted to point out that the starter of that thread almost divorced now. [divorce filed, they are just waiting for it to be final] Deployments and traveling jobs are a disaster to marriages.

Not trying to be Debbie Downer here, but I think it is important to face reality.

Dr. Harley takes the issue of selfish demands extremely seriously. Not only is it a love buster, in the case of SF it can create a sexual aversion.

Demands are a short sighted way to get what you want. They may get what you are looking for, but they will make you less likely to keep getting it long term.

Doesn't sound like a "phantom bogey man" to me when I read what Dr. Harley has to say.


Am I reading right that you are saying it is logically impossible for husbands to demand SF?


Okay, so the implication here is that she [b]SHOULD meet his SF need, which is a disrespectful judgment, and a nasty bit of entitlement that is pretty much completely the opposite of what Dr. Harley has to say about this.

And as a bonus, there's the subtle stick of resentment being used as a weapon: I'm so gracious to give you another chance after your affair, so you ought to be grateful for the chance to meet my needs. Dr. Harley counsels a wife in such a situation to basically set her husband down and explain "Listen, Buster, do you want to be in love with me? Because if you do, the way you are going about it is all wrong. You are not acting in ways I find attractive; you are acting in ways I find DISGUSTING!"


Okay, I'm going to be all for male initiative and aggression here in the context of a loving marriage and in a context where it's understood that a wife wants to be treated that way. BUT, "simply tell her"? Order her around, in other words? So the advice being handed out here is that a betrayed husband in recovery should order his wife to make love to him? Use selfish demands to get your needs met?

Or am I misunderstanding? (If I am, I wonder how many others will make the same misunderstanding...)

I have an idea. Since this is Marriage Builders dot com, and since the Marriage Builders plan for restoring love and intimacy in marriage works, why don't we advise this husband using Marriage Builders concepts?

When I presented my recently discovered cheating wife my list things I will require to remain married to her, all I thought about was the sex she was having with her OM.

I didnt care one bit about the lunches, shopping, and anything else they did together. I cared about the sex.

I cared about how I spent years deprived of her and how she didnt deprive him.

Therefore, the list of conditions which was accepted without any issue started off with SF-related items.

I wanted to claim her back and all the mental damage, I felt, could be somewhat healed if that element of married rose to a "normal" level.

I will never beg or browbeat for it like before. I TELL HER I WANT WANT HER. If she is not into it for any reason, she will tell me and she has done so since dday.

Im pretty sure MB tells you to list the conditions for recovery and just compensation and to present them to the WS. What are needs may not be your needs, so I resent your implications.

I simply was advising this BH to establish what he wants as his new normal as I did whether its in bed or keeping the house clean or helping with finances.

I think the bolded clarifies a lot. Your original comment without this clarification sounded pretty much like a wtf? Thanks for clarifying.


Agreed

Thanks for the update. How sad. That's why Dr. H always says to get out. When my WH was deployed I said never again.

Plan A is also about the BS working on himself. I'd imagine you will have your fair share of PT during school. Exercise is a great way for you to feel better about yourself as well as get some frustration out. Leaderships skills will also be developed. I hope you see how that can benefit you as a husband, father and individual. When I read your posts you sound fearful and easily deflated. There is little room for that sort of thinking in the military...hopefully you will be reminded of that and apply it to your personal relationships.

Since WW will not have SF, you being away will give her the time (at least in her head) to "find herself", "get comfortable" or whatever she wants to call it. Because she is getting that opportunity (even though there is nothing you can do about it or it is not ideal to be separated) short of more excuses she can't say you were smothering her, nagging her for sex, expecting sex, etc. because you aren't there. You will also not be tempted to love bust about the lack of sex with her since it is physically impossible. The separation might help you focus of other aspects of marital and personal recovery because the SF isn't going to happen. You may even be too tired at the end of the day to think about sex.

Separation sucks here but you have to work with what you have and it is a good thing that she is with her parents. If after a week or two of you coming home (and continuing Plan A), you see no progress with WW then you will have to decide when enough will be enough. If D is not an option to you, there is nothing anyone here can do to help you. If you are willing to be in a marriage at all costs, you'll just have to suck it up.

**edit**

Also, since WW gave birth several months ago...

Most women do not feel attractive after childbirth. Body image is eh, hormones may be out of whack still, tired from lack of sleep and the high demands infants require can take a toll even on the strongest of women. While I would not allow the babies to be a never ending excuse you will have to consider these things. It just adds another negative factor to your R.

ETA:
You can also get DNA testing done to put any doubt to rest. Home swab tests are easily available at Walgreens, CVS, etc. and are an inexpensive way to get peace of mind.

http://www.walgreens.com/store/c/identigene-dna-paternity-test-collection-kit/ID=prod4202920-product

If your twins are identical you only need one test. If they are faternal and you believe there is some way she'd carry two babies by two different men, then you can test both...whatever will put your mind to rest. And no I would not POJA this with WW. Like other snooping she doesn't have to know. Swab cheeks, mail in and get results.

Also here's a radio clip of what BR is talking about.
Radio clip of stress in a marriage after babies arrive

Very likely.

Recovery is hard.

I want to encourage you NOT to let the fact that you have 5 month old twins keep you from doing what it takes to recover.

I have twins, and I know what a job they are at that age.

But they need parents with a strong, romantic marriage. THEY need that from you. They will not get that if you allow them to dominate your time and energy.

Your marriage needs the time for Intimate Emotional Needs to be met -- 30 hours for Conversation, Recreational Companionship, Affection, and Sexual Fulfillment. Your twins will benefit if you take this time with your wife.

Make this your priority.

That sounds perfect. A statement about your feelings (not a demand), and she is free to say "no." I think that should be clarified in a lot of these posts, because without her having the freedom to say "no," it's a demand, and if the Marriage Builders forum is encouraging husbands or wives to make demands, then we are going to be wrecking marriages, not saving them.

What makes something a demand or not is how you respond when your wife says "no," so it's best not to leave that part out. Dr. Harley once told me I was being demanding just for telling my wife "It bothers me that you didn't [take a particular action]."


I'm a lot more straightforward than that. Instead of implications, I'll state straight out that making demands or using resentment over an affair to get sexual needs met (no matter how they rank) is a surefire recipe to destroy love in marriage, according to Dr. Harley.

Unfortunately, you can't sustain romantic love in a marriage unless you are together every day. Sure, we all know people who stay married, but staying married does not mean one is in love. Statistically, these marriages experience epidemic affairs and divorce rates. This is why Harley is adamant that couples do not spend the night apart.

Didn't your husband have an affair, Tammy? I thought you were here due to a troubled marriage.

Yep my dh had an affair but that doesnt mean every guy will. A couple can put stuff in place to keep the romance.

**edit**

Tammy

Many times people say that a career or other choice in life is the will of God, but it is really only their own desires they are listening to.

Waywards do it all the time.

Let me put it back at you: Do you think God would set a purpose in a person's heart for a career that puts their marriage at risk?

Yes, they can. Like "No nights spent apart."

Do you have the book Love Busters? There's a whole chapter at the end about a man who wanted to be a pastor over his wife's objections, with some excellent advice on that subject from Dr. Harley.

God is not some magic pixie dust that will keep your marriage safe when you have willingly placed it in harms way.

I believe you are the only one that has said that.

Tammy, I don't believe that God wants people to risk their marriages with traveling jobs. God doesnt call people to take risks with their marriages. Sure, you may know someone who has a romantic marriage (doubtful) but I also know people who smoked 4 packs of cigarettes a day and came out just fine. Doesn't mean we should be telling people to smoke.

It would be different if you had a great marriage to show in spite of your husbands traveling job, but you don't. And that is the problem, these marriages are fraught with conflict. That is because it is impossible to sustain intimacy when you are not meeting each others needs on a daily basis.

Excuse me, Tammy. According to your signature line:

BS (me) 33 WH (dh) 32
married for 12 yrs-3 kids 11,9 and 4 yrs old
DDay Jan 2005 told of EA with OW1 believed the story found out it was a PA on 11/2010
Another PA also with another woman sometime in between
multiple one night stand on business trips
DD summer 2007 received a letter from a woman believed dh it was from an online affiar. Found out 11/2010 she was also a PA.
DDay Nov 7th 2010 found email saying I love you to OW:(
Last PA was 3/2010-11/2010
NC Dec 9th

Your H had at least 5 PAs AND "multiple one-night stands" while travelling, during a 12-year marriage.

I can't imagine why you try to counsel this poster that his absence from his recent WW, who had an affair while pregnant and is still in severe withdrawal from that, can safeguard his marriage while travelling.

Why would you advise him to take such high-risk action?

**edit**

Tammy

I was under the impression he is military which means if you dont show up you go to jail. Did I have that wrong? If he is military he doesnt have a choice and has to work with what he has got.

Tammy

**edit**

If I had the impression wrong that he has the option to go or not go then that is different. I thought he was in the military - maybe I read a different thread and transferred that idea to this one.

Tammy

Better get prepared for 5 more PAs and multiple one night stands, again. Nothing's changed.

Please refrain from posting advice or personal opinions on another poster's help thread until you familiarize yourself with and understand Marriage Builders concepts.

Where ya at HH?

Whew, just got done with the first part of my 11 hour exam. Such a drain! Finish up the last 1/3 tomorrow :crosses fingers:

Anyways, thanks for all the replies, I appreciate them a ton. ML, BR, Markos and Prisca have been especially helpful.

I'm a little more upbeat today, yesterday my wife and I went to our MC individually. I saw him for an hour, she saw him for 2 hours. She was infinitely more engaged with me throughout the rest of the day and happier with me as well, breathe of fresh air. Since when did I become this horrible, detestable person to be around? Sure I'm selfish, myopic and thoughtless at times, but what Male isn't? I think I'm a pretty good guy, so that felt nice. She even gave me a hug for the first time in weeks when I left for my test.

I guess I've just come to the conclusion to BE STILL. I saw that thread somewhere on BE STILL and it's tantamount. Even though her affair was not my fault, I still have to live with the consequences of it, and I'm willing to because I do love her and want her to be truly happy.

I guess that's why I don't consider the affair 'REAL'. Sure the feelings were REAL, being twitterpatted or infatuated with someone initially is absolutely real. But it's not genuine, it's not REAL in the sense that it's love. It can't be that, because love isn't that thoughtless, selfish or careless.

Markos your posts have resonated the most with me in terms of what to expect and how to go about that from a preparing myself psychological to go through this process.

BR your ideas will definitely be consulted here going forward to try and implement them.

And ML, you're totally right, I just need to enjoy this next month and be as positive an influence on her life that I can be. Hopefully, she'll defog sooner than later out of her current state. I think the reason she's so disenchanted with me, is the OM and her got close by 'consoling' each other on the problems in their respective marriages. Habitually focus on the negatives allows one to only see the negatives. After months of this no wonder she thinks I'm 'repulsive'(much less so today than 4 months ago). I can't change her, I can't make her feel anything, I can't make her do anything. But I can make myself as lovable as possible and keep working on my side of the street and keeping praying to God to work a mighty miracle in our relationship. That's all I can control, which sucks, but that's where I'm at.

So what's your plan to meet her EN until you have to leave?

Here's that thread for you.
Betrayed Spouses........just be still

I'll meet the ones she'll allow me to meet, those being FC, FS, and DS. I'm being OH with her on the IC we have and I'm striving to pay her genuine compliments on the things she does then just go out and have fun on the lake(RC) and with her family during the reunions with her when we're not taking care of the babies.

I THINK her 5 top Emotional needs are:

1) Affection
2) Recreation Companionship
3) Open And Honest
4) Admiration
5) Family Commitment/Spiritual Leader

I could be wrong, but that's my guess based on how I know her I kinda smirk when she says SF is her top need. It's never been that before the affair, I hope it is, but I don't necessarily believe her. Like Dr. Harley says, a need for SF usually predates the relationship and is often pre-mediated with fantasies. I don't think she's ever fantasized about SF particularly prior to our relationship.

Are you in the military?

Yes. I have training for 5 weeks in August.

Thank you for your service.

So what's your plan to stay connected with your wife as much as possible?

My pleasure, I look forward to the next 4 years in the service. It's either gonna make or break us as a family now, but I'm going to have to think that what doesn't kill us is only going to make us stronger. I believe we will be stronger for it. And I'm glad to have the opportunity and skills to serve our great Nation.

I think following much of the list that BR listed out is a great start for a plan during those 5 weeks. I just got home from my exam. DONE!!!! Now I just hope I passed and I can move forward with my life and family.

Right now things seem as good as they've been all year. 2012 has basically sucked for me between finishing school, all the changes from moving, starting my military career, and then THIS. While I LOVE LOVE LOVE my twins, they are so much work and so difficult. Having the emotional drain of this affair and my wife throwing the word divorce around every so often, then the physical demanding nature of the twins I'm EXHAUSTED all the way around. Honestly, I can't believe all that I've accomplished this year. I've been stretched thinner than I ever have, and yet, I'm able to do it. I barely sleep still, partly from the twins, but mostly, I've realized I've suffered from a lot of the symptoms of PTSD, particularly the vigilante in me right now. It's not as strong, but it's still there for sure.

I can't believe how much I've learned and grown through all this though. I SEE the silver lining in all this, but sometimes I just get SOOOO pissed off. I'm really pissed today that I have to one day FORGIVE the OM. I HAVE to do it....ONE DAY, not today, because of my Faith, I know I can and I know I will, but it won't be today, though some days are better than others in that dept. I don't know how much I can until my marriage IS restored, until I have MY wife back, not just the roommate that helps take care of the Kids.

I guess I'm just really frustrated right now. I'm not having a single emotional NEED of mine met right now outside of MAYBE Domestic Support, and even then I contribute there more than most Husbands do, in fact, I will nearly guarantee that I am more in tune to helping around the house, and with the Kids than the VAST majority of husbands, so even then, that need is being met by my wife in many ways, I'm still right there with her contributing and having the twins has a LOT to do with it, there's a LOT to go around.

But the Counselor asked me what was my #1 need right now that wasn't being met. And I realized, it's not even SF right now. It's SECURITY. I have none, even when things are supposedly 'good', the insecurity, the rejection the feeling of abandonment is still there. I'm looking for SECURITY right now. If I got that, then I would at least be having a MAJOR need of mine being met, but I can't even get that. I didn't marry and have 3 kids to divorce and start all over 8 years later. I married to be a father and husband to my family forever. I WANT that responsibility. I just keep wondering why? Why I'm not enough? What's so wrong with me that I wasn't enough? I look back and I do see problems that need fixing, but I wasn't ever unwilling to try and fix things, I wasn't ever not committed to my family. Why would she quit like that? And why can't she re-commit? I mean I KNOW the answers in my head, but in my heart they remain unanswered. It's just so baffling and troubling to me to not get it and to feel second rate when I've given nearly all that I have and knew how to give to my family at that time. Sorry for the rambling vent, I think I just needed to get that out. /vent

I'm really feeling lousy today. I think it's because of the poor night's sleep. I'm working hard and keeping busy(just taking a 15 minute break right now) and just can't get past my thoughts and feelings today. I know I want my marriage to last, I know I love my wife and family. My wife has been more thoughtful, happy and sweet towards me than she ever has since D-Day, but I haven't felt this empty and lonely in a LONG time. I just can't get over the lack of physical affection or lack of SF. There just comes a point in time where it's just completely necessary, yet my wife won't touch me, she won't even change her clothes in front me of me and that just adds so much insult to injury emotionally for me. I don't want to quit, but I feel like I'm running on an empty emotional tank. I feel like I've tried everything within my power to move towards a more successful recovery, but I can't make her do anything at this point. I just don't feel the energy or willpower to try today. It's one thing to ignorantly not fulfill your spouses LB$, it's entirely another to be capable of doing it, know how to do and but choose not to do it. Some of these days are just impossible turmoil within myself. I know it won't last, in fact, I'll probably feel better in a couple hours, but all morning long I just couldn't shake these feelings, no matter how hard I try, they're just lingering and it's upsetting.

I believe youre supposed to lay out a time frame for milestone points in recovery for her to achieve. And if almost 7 weeks since you signed on (not sure when your dday was) and say youre still feeling insecure and a few other of your most critical ENs are being unmet, they where exactly are you?

Youre leaving very soon HH and she'll be home without you.

It's been about 4 months since D-day and 2 months since no-contact.

She's definitely warming up more, but it's SOOO fricking slow. Care to share an example of what you went through in terms of the timeline you're referring to?

Today was a tough day again, I kinda snapped out of it a lot of the way this evening, but I've never been so apathetic towards this process as I was today. I just didn't care. I didn't want to try today, I even felt like quitting(and I might be the most persistent sucker on the planet.) I just didn't have anything left in the tank, luckily her family started to arrive for the reunion and I was able to kick the funk during the afternoon, but those feels scared me quite frankly. The more I tried to push them away, the more I tried to focus on the positive the more intense they were. I really wanted to inflict physical harm on the POSOM. I can't stand that I KNOW she's still concerned for him and yet I feel less concern from her, maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I feel like I'm only here with her right now because she couldn't do this to the kids. I want to matter to her the way I ought to matter to her as a husband. I'm tired of being emotionally AND physically drained. I am just really sick and tired of being in a M.I.N.O. (marriage in name only) right now. I hate the ambivalence of this whole process. I know we can get past that, but this sucks. This is a turdburger for sure to be married and not have a wife.

Hopeful Hubby I have not kept up on your thread, but it sounds to me like you are near the end of your rope. What have you been advised about Plan B?

The stuff you listed above that are bothering you today bothered me since i started reading your thread. I think shes waiting out your imminent departure andyou will be out of sight and mind.

I think you need to make an offensive in this thing before you go. A solid plan b rollout.

Feeling a lot better today. I think Church always helps with that. Plan B is kinda already etched in stone thanks to the United States Military, I have a non-negotiable 5 week absence in August.

Today at church my wife was just a lot more engaged towards me. More eye contact, genuine warm smiles, lots of innocent touches, she even purposefully moved to sit closer to me(not sure if that was to maintain appearances or not) but at this point, I'll give the benefit of the doubt and accept it. Overall I just felt a sense of warmth from her which was nice.

She smelt GREAT today too. And she's always beautiful(I've always told her make-up is optional for her beauty), but when she makes herself up she's a knock-out! Just having a MUCH better day today overall.

The other guy is out of the picture. I know for a fact he's saving face with his wife right now. I heard from the horse's mouth that she's going to reconcile her marriage with him and a mutual friend established that he was BEGGING her to take him back. (What a pathetic waste of life). And for some reason my wife 'believes' his sincerity and honesty towards her. That still frustrates me to this day. He lied to his wife, church leaders, family, yet he never lied to you? RIGHT!!!! How can you be so gullible on this issue? She is so much smarter than this. Affair's make people stupid.

Thats not Plan B, friend, that is just a temporary separation!

Have you read the book, Surviving an Affair?

Yes, I gotta give plan A a minimum of Six Month in my opinion, and that's going to have to include that temporary separation.

Would it be beneficial for me(or the counselor)to suggest to my wife to read SAA, HNHN, LBS or FILSIL books at this point? I've read the first 3, not FILSIL(though the principles look the same as on the website).

If so which ones would be most beneficial? In what order? The affairs been over for over 2 months now, and d-day was over 4 months ago. I'm afraid if I suggest SAA to her again that it's just going to re-hash a lot of the past that we've progressed from(even if I only view it as a little), I don't want to re-hash those things we've moved on from.

Decipher this for more. My wife was asking me how I was feeling, she really truly sincerely wanted to know how I was actually feeling tonight. That she wanted me to be open and honest, because if she can't know how I feel unless I tell her. So I told her. I told her I missed her. I missed her as my wife. I was telling her how rejected I felt, how every time she goes into the bathroom to change, it's a reminder to me. A reminder of the A, a reminder of our deterioration of our relationship. She told me the reason she does it is because she feels like we need to 'court' each other again. She wants it to be 'natural' that we just meet each others needs. That she doesn't want us us to get into that 'rut' again where we just see each other naked or are just having sex. Where we take each other for granted. To me it felt like she wanted to me telepathic to her needs, that if she has to tell me what they are then it's not natural. That I should just know what to do. I'm so frustrated. The conversation went from how I felt to how I need to meet her needs without knowing what her needs are specifically. She said if I wasn't closed off(I had my arms folded) she would have held my hand tonight(LIKE I'M SUPPOSE TO KNOW THAT?) I mean she won't even hold my hand during a prayer. I can't give her a hug. She said, do you want me to give you a hug if I don't mean it?

It's this whole NATURAL talk that bothers me. Recovering from an affair IS NOT NATURAL!!!!! "NATURAL COUPLES" don't cheat! I just think these are unrealistic expectations placed on me.

She gave me an example of when she needed me emotionally speaking. When we were making plans for after school was over(mind you she was pregnant with twins at the time) She felt like I got excited and didn't take her feelings into consideration. However, I have a hard time with this specific example specific this was weeks AFTER her affair got physical.

She said she just doesn't want to continue and feeling unfulfilled. I don't want her to either, but I don't think I can fulfill things that I don't know need to be filled, and I don't think this process is going to be 'natural' by any stretch of the imagination.

HH, your wife is displaying a freeloader mentality:


More here.

None of us are mind-readers. You can't automatically know what her needs are, and vice versa.

You asked about the right books for you to be reading - HH, let me ask, has your WW read SAA? Does she understand what is entailed in just compensation? I know you say you don't want to bring up things that you've already discussed, but has everything been discussed to your satisfaction? A romantic and fulfilling marriage can be created - it doesn't just "happen" by accident - but both spouses must buy in to the program. The truly repentant wayward spouse wanting to earn that "F" must take the load of recovery. Her responsibility is to heal you and to offer you just compensation for her adultery. Part of JC is fulfilling your ENs...and that entails LEARNING exactly WHAT your ENs are, so that she can successfully fulfill them. Either she wants to be married to you or not. She can't remain a freeloader or even a renter for marriage to be truly fulfilling.

Let me address something you said several days ago:

You are not second rate. You are more than enough. My BH said a lot of the same things to me - he gave everything he knew to give to his family: he worked, he was a provider, he gave up many (pretty much all) of his outside interests in order to support his wife and children. And I repaid him how? Not by telling him that I appreciated what he did for us, not by having an O&H conversation about meeting each others' most important ENs, but by giving my love and body to another man. Let me tell you something: It was not about my BH. My infidelity was ALL ABOUT ME. My husband was more than enough. He was not - and IS not - second rate. Neither are you. Your WW's adultery was ALL ABOUT HER. She can sit here now and try to deflect, and try to make it about you, and spout nonsense about this and that from the marriage, but the truth is, problems in marriage - resulting from LB's and unmet EN's - happen. Our responsibility is to communicate to each other when those things happen - not throw our hands up and give up on our marriage, selfishly seeking fulfillment outside of our marital relationship.

Why would she quit? Because she got selfish. She got lazy.

Why won't she recommit? Because she is still selfish and lazy.

Well said, wulffpack girl, well said. And will help many BS's here. Thank you

Wow, thank you for your post WPG. Your words made me cry a little honestly. I wish my wife felt that way right now. She's progressing, I see it in her, I hear it in her voice, I see it in the way she even looks at me. It's so small, and so subtle right now, but it's changing. I recognize it. But I've just been on emotional life support the past week, grasping for air. I think once my test ended I had this huge let down emotionally. Like I've been giving, and giving and giving and I just have had little left in the tank.

I keep trying to communicate to her that touch is what I need, a big part of that IS SF for me. It always has been. But I can't even get a hug from her right now, so to expect SF is just asinine on my part, and quite frankly, I don't want to force the issue either, especially after Markos' remarks on the matter. But the touch, affectionate touches would do wonders for me right now. It'd help me feel safe, and secure and loved.

Something she said last night that stood out was that she always wanted that emotional support from me, when she was relating the concrete example that happened AFTER the affair. That's something entirely different than what's been said the past 4 months. The "I don't think I've ever loved you" she's maintained for you which has evolved down to I have philos love, to eros love, now it's I have always wanted it from you. That made me feel good, even though the conversation didn't end great. She seemed happy again this morning and last night she asked me to name 5 things that I consider to be 'romantic' that would just happen, that aren't planned, that happen spontaneously on a daily basis. (I'm very analytical and deliberate, especially on how I show love, I plan things out and think she'll enjoy something, and I think I've lost LB$ because it's 'not' natural).

Thanks for the 'freeloader/renter/buyer' example. That helped a LOT to help me understand. I mean, I've not been perfect. I know she HAS expressed needs in the past and i sometimes ignored them, minimized them or simply just didn't understand what those needs were or the magnitude of those needs. Also, it's good to for me to understand that needs change as time passes. I realize my own needs have changed and changed dramatically en lieu of these events.

I said to her last night that I WANT to meet her needs, but that I don't always know what to do or what to say to meet those needs. That I am willing to be taught what those needs are, and that just set her off to where she rolled over in bed and ended the conversation and we went to bed for the night. I just laid there and wondered? What? What did I do/not do? WHat did I say/not say? I'm sure she was thinking that the POSOM would have said or done what she needed right there. Like she was giving me a chance to redeem myself and I failed. That's what it felt like to me at least.

No she hasn't read SAA, or any 'MARRIAGE' book...yet. She's focusing on the New Testament and another book right now. She doesn't have a lot of time to read much right now due to the incredibly time-consuming nature of our twins, now family reunions, etc. When I go off to my military training, I'm assuming she'll find more time to read some books then. I've invited her to read SAA and HNHN with me. But to no avail...yet.

Here's your problem.

You are hedging your bets on trying to cold read a still-foggy wayward.


You can't really talk her into much right now, and doing so... well, trying to talk her out of the fog just pushes her deeper into it.


Why?


Because even though she is foggy, even though there is no way under the sun she is right, trying to talk her out of her fog is trying to straighten her out. It is a disrespectful judgement.

Your best bet is to rise up with confidence, and ACT according the the MB plan. The trick is to build your Love Bank balance, and THEN invite her on board.

Don't inflate your hope, it makes the rollercoaster that much worse when she does things to drop the floor.


You are essentially doing a Plan A to break her fog, and part of that is having NO expectations.


That's the mantra for now.


Set a time limit, stand tall and strong, and concentrate on meeting her needs and being a pleasant companion.

There's nothing here that I disagree with. I think you're correct. However, the one point I wish to harp on that stands out is the 'EXPECT NOTHING'. I don't dig that at all. I was given wise counsel to not let these events lower the standards for my marriage. What that means to me is to work towards and expect a fulfilling marriage. I understand my wife is not willing(emotionally), and in many instances incapable(psychologically) to meet my needs but this isnt an excuse to lower the standards for my marriage. My expectations for my marriage should remain at a realistic and acceptable level. Lowering those expectations doesn't do anyone, any good in our commitmentto one another. To me marriage is the ultimate buddy system. When one falls, the other is there to pick the fallen spouse up and vice versa. She's absolutely devastated me, but I'm not going to let that deter me away from my promises and my commitments to her and to God. If after all that I do and all that I've gone through she determines it's not enough, then I will hold my head up high knowing I did all that I knew how to do to preserve my family and to preserve a normal, healthy relationship between my wife and I for our children to emulate in the future. I hope that's enough, it should be enough, but ultimately my wife has that choice to determine whether that really is enough, for her.

I think the 'expect nothing in return' applies to Plan A. But you should not be in Plan A the entire length of your M. You should be in Plan A for as long as you can afford to without compromising yourself, and then go to Plan B if your WW is not interested in doing what it takes to recover your M, which includes work on HER part. I don't think anyone is suggesting that you do what you are doing without expecting anything in return for the rest of your M. That is not the MB way.

You are absolutely right that you should not lower the standards for your M. You should expect there to be, at some point, a turnaround in your WW where she is fully committed to recovery, including meeting YOUR needs. I guess the question is how long are you planning to give her? I haven't followed your thread in its entirety, but it seems to me you have already given her a REALLY LONG TIME. But I know Dr H does state that a man should Plan A 6-24 months or something like that. Frankly, I would never be able to last that long without something in return.

Great distinction and clarification. Yes i agree with wholeheartedly.

Hi HH

Have you tried sleeping close to your wife after she dozes off, holding her hand or whispering an ILU to her while she is asleep? If she wakes to find you close to her or wakes to a soft voice she may be receptive to your touch. Just thinking...

Ok - you do understand that her actions point to her being in a state of withdrawal, right?

Are you familiar with the state of withdrawal? She doesn't really have an interest in meeting your needs, and it is difficult for you to meet hers.

She's also foggy and in withdrawal from her AP.


So, what no expectations means at this point, is not particularly expecting her to be meeting your needs enthusiastically, nor expecting her to be particularly receptive.


Also; that part about setting a timeline? That means that you aren't going to accept those conditions indefinitely. It means that you are going to model what you are going to do in the marriage moving forward. It's not a trick. You are raising the bar both in what you expect and in what you will provide as a husband.

Just curious, this question is only for FWW's or current WW's trying to earn their "F".

I am curious if any of you developed an aversion to your husband to where you the very though of touching your husband was simply too uncomfortable to do. Be it holding hands, hugging, kissing and a full blown sex aversion. Affection and intimacy were just not possible for you?

If so how did you overcome it? How long did it take? What types of things happened along the way to promote intimacy between you and your husband? Did it just happen over time? Or was it an active process?

Thanks, just curious to understand the thoughts and psychology of those that have actually gone through this to maybe better understand my own wife.

HH-

I'm interested in this question as well but I think you putting the cart ahead of the horse.

Have you read the books? The psychology of a deep fogged out caught cheater like your wife is described in SAA.

Among all the unfairness of her affair Is that you are going away for training with this crap in your head.

Life is real short, my friend and you are mired in a bad spot here pining away for a miracle. A year is a long time to live with wishy washy non committal. You have a right to be happy and you need to start figuring out how.

I don't think anyone believes she'll seek out the om, but absence will not make a fogged out person's heart grow fonder during your away time. Personally, I was away for 5 days this week on business for the first time since dday and I had a hard time. I can't fathom how you are going to handle your (did you say 5 weeks?) away.

You need to keep yourself healthy and that includes your head.

Excellent radio clip on this subject.

Radio Clip on WW's apologizing after an affair

HH, it's been a while. What goes on in your world?

LOTS has happened in the past 3 weeks.

Update:

Well 3 weeks ago one of our twins was hospitalized. We live in the boonies so I took him to the hospital ALL DAY Saturday. He's fine now. Well my wife came an relieved me because I had some responsibility at church first thing in the morning the next day. Come to find out on Monday night she confesses the POSOM emailed her that Friday during our family reunion. My wife didn't want to tell me then to not 'upset' me. She called a mutual friend to find out why he would have emailed her. She told him that the POSOM and OMW went on a vacation together and thought maybe he was contacting 'to say good-bye'. Well my wife called him from the hospital and she explained it was more of a gauging interest sort of thing. She told him she was working things out with me and he promised to never contact her again.

She sincerely apologized to me and begged me to continue being patient with her. She's agreed to EP's such as privatizing our blog, changing phone numbers(even though they're blocked right now), and to do the MB online program with me(we started this past Friday night).

Since that night we went across the country to my family reunion and I've felt commitment from her. For the first time in our marriage I felt she ENGAGED my family and began to understand them and even love them for who they were and to appreciate my heritage from the awesome family I have. She's hugged me quite a bit since then and even held my hand on a date and allowed me to apply sunscreen to her when we went swimming.(This is a big deal as I wasn't able to even touch her before all this). The night after holding my hand, I went to hold her's the next night and she wouldn't let me. This set me off as I felt totally confused and rejected. The mixed signals killed me. I guess she had read a page I'd written when I was pissed off at the POSOM. She said the anger distances her from me. I began to realize then that I was using anger to hide my hurt. The two things that really were eating at me were 1) How she viewed me and treated/neglected my needs and 2) How she still views the POSOM favorably(shows care and concern for his well-being) and gives him the benefit of the doubt on his motives and still to this day values his opinions and counsel that I know he's given to her from reading past chats they had. It irks me to this day(not as bad as it once did though).

Things still aren't perfect but we've had a LOT of time to talk while traveling. It's amazing how the UA time helps. She really is trying now and seems to WANT to try now, whereas before it seemed more out of obligation But we're not there yet and it's SOOOO challenging with Twin baby's and a 4 year old.

She's been happier lately and much more cognizant of my feelings and truly looking for ways to 'serve me'. I'm learning to step back and allow it to happen. Before I always tried to be the gentleman and not allow her a lot of these opportunities as often because I didn't want her to feel obligated like she HAD to anything for her to love me.

I also found out I failed my big exam that I had been studying for through all this(I BARELY failed it, even though I enhanced my score from previous performances it still fell short and have to wait a year to re-take it - this is my FINAL hurdle to my schooling).
I might get kicked out of the military because of it(I dunno), we'll find out in a couple days what the verdict is and if they're willing to work with me on the matter.

In any regards, I'm NOT going to the military schooling for the next 5 weeks now. This one's for you Melodylane. I managed to get out of it, for now. Not trying for this of course, but this is where we are at. God works in mysterious ways and I have the utmost faith that he is working with me and my family through our trials to strengthen us and buoy us up in our marriage and family and that we'll look back on this and see the 'why' then.

For now, my focus is on the Online course with my wife. We went through the Love Bank video online. She said afterwards that those were very wise words. So she's much more in tune and receptive to things. I feel like the 'fog' is lifting rather fast right now and I want it to keep going.

My questions are, what is the best way to attack the Online course for those that have done it previously? We have a hard time getting the proper amount of UA time due to the little kiddo's who still are on no schedule whatsoever because of all the transitions. We usually have a couple hours each night before bed. Which is what we're striving for.

Should we go down the video list of basic concepts first? My wife hasn't read any of Dr. Harley's books yet. It is quite the ordeal for us to find time to read right now. We usually have a 30 minute drive into town when we go. I noticed the Audio CD's are roughly 25-30 minutes long. Should we do those now(or simultaneously with the online video's?) or complete the Online video's first before proceeding onward. I know we need to tackle the biggest problems first. My biggest problem is the lack of SF. Although I find myself scared to touch my wife. I want it. I like it when she does. But it's a challenge for me to initiate anything right now because I'm so gun-shy from everything. I'm afraid of being rejected again I think. I still do it sometimes, but when I want to I hesitate. We talked in our car ride the other day about this and she's given me the green light to try again, but I'm still hesitant and she says there are still times where she might not be 'comfortable' with the physical affection.

I've read HNHN, LB's and am currently reading Buyers, renters and freeloaders.

Just looking for some guidance and structure here as I'm wondering how to best proceed. I know I have more experience with the MB principles, but I KNOW my wife has more instincts towards them once we get going on the course in earnest. I have the next 5 weeks(or more) given to me to work on my marriage.

Hopeful_Hubby,

Well my wife called him from the hospital and she explained it was more of a gauging interest sort of thing. She told him she was working things out with me and he promised to never contact her again.

This is a serious breech of no-contact, an affront to your marriage, an attack on your children and you need to speak with the OMW about it.

If I am reading this correctly, the OM still has a fantasy of either hooking up with your W or still remaining friends. This indicates that he just doesn't get it or is still a threat to your marriage. At worst he is waiting to find your W in an emotionally vulnerable place again. Was OM exploiting the knowledge that your child was in the hospital?

God Bless
Gamma

agreed. i was ticked, but i controlled my temper. he had no way of knowing about the hospitalization. that was just bad timing. he contacted on friday, i read the email later, and she called saturday night. its like a switch turned off in my wife since she told me. its been really nice. most tings seem pretty good...right now even in spite of the chaos circling around us. she said last night to remind her to privatize the blog today9he had been viewing it...this was something i asked her to do back in may because i don't trust that db one bit). i don't expect her to hate him, she thinks i want her to hate him, i don't really care, i want apathy from her towards him...i think hate oftentimes begins the journey to apathy though state of conflict then withdrawal is what im basing that on. she asked how much the mb online course was, i said $350 and she said it better work. i said it'll work if we follow it.

HH-

You need to be more mad at this contact.

This is nothing but a swift kick to your ....

Not good. Not good at all.

You wife not only received something she has been wanting, but this contact has reset the clock on your recovery. There's no 2 ways to look at it.

YOUR WIFE F-ING CALLED HIM? IS SHE NUTS?

Very bad.

i understand all that. it did piss me off, but the # of EP's is increasing and the way she is treating me is improved. so forgive me if my anger is subsiding because of these actions. i do feel safer and more connected to my wife. definitely not where i want to be but vastly improved from even 1 month ago.

What was your condition if she broke NC?

She essentially got her fix, man.

There had to be a ramification for making contact and it should now be triggered. It shouldnt matter whether shes hitting on all other aspects of recovery. For her to reach out to him, and her reason for doing so is really lame, says a whole bunch about whats going on over there.

Stop sugar coating it, buddy. NC is the most basic rule of MB and SHE CALLED HIM!!!!!

and now shes on board with the mb program whereas before she wasn't. im not going to punish her if shes showing true remorse and offering just compensation now.

HH,


What you aren't GETTING here with this break in NC, is that phonecall could have been a planning session to resume the A right under your nose. And hey, just to keep you off the trail, she'll amp up the sweet talk, sugar!

Any contact with the AP sets your recovery, and her withdrawal from the AP back to DAY 1.

I hope you have a good snooping setup. Dropping your guard at this point is giving up.

Nope. She is not.

No Contact is a fairly easy concept to understand. No ambiguity in it. It means one doesnt initiate, accept, open email, open text, or USPS conversation in any other way from her Affair Partner.

If she is driving down a busy highway and her guy is on the other side in his own car, fleeting eye contact is not permitted.

Innocent bumping into at the mall is not allowed.

CALLING HIM IS ONE OF THE WORST BREAKING OF THIS RULE THAT COULD BE.

Come on, dude. Man up here. You are being played by these 2.

A slap on the wrist and 'please dont do that again' does not suffice.

A wayward who is serious about NC would have never called the OM.

The fact that you are minimizing what a setback this is shows that you do not understand the addictive nature of affairs AT ALL. She is a crackhead and and she just took a hit off the crackpipe. She is happy because she is high off of the recent contact.

OM is top of mind and the likelyhood of more contact is extremely high.

Hopeful_Hubby,

and now shes on board with the mb program whereas before she wasn't. im not going to punish her if shes showing true remorse and offering just compensation now.

Once again have you informed OMW about this, and have you exposed the OM?

Punish her?, no punish the OM for this insult.

And this just compensation is more like damage control.

God Bless
Gamma

Most likely her treatment of you has improved because she wants to distract you from ongoing C and looking closer at the lack of EPs.


I hope you understand now that this type of attitude in part is what lead to you not watching her more closely. Your WW is showing all the signs of someone who is either still in C or not even close to being through withdrawal = high chance of continued contact. Your attitude should be, I need to watch her closely. She is a crackhead and still looking for her fix.

BTW, can you explain to us how you did not know the OM was emailing her and she was calling him on your own if you had a keylogger on phone and email?

What EPs have you changed to prevent this into the future? How did the OM get her email? Was it never changed?

She shouldn't be using the computer without you right there in the room with her at least until she is through withdrawal.

Well, you shouldn't punish her no matter what.

But you should be aware that this is a SERIOUS problem that you need to address, not sweep under the rug.

Regarding your going away for five weeks:




but now you say this:


So you could have gotten out of it but you did not take what ML told you seriously enough.

We cannot help you if you do not somehow absorb how serious EPs are and how you cannot deviate from this program in the tiniest bit.

These two recent contacts, when your WW was at home on the email and when she was using the phone to call OM and you were at the hospital, you two should have been together. I see many many gaps here, and the biggest problem is that you don't take the risk of the A igniting seriously enough.

You have had amazing posters trying to tell you from the beginning, SC, ML, bliss, and many others, and you have been resisting every step of the way that your WW is still at risk for contact.

I am not sure what it is going to take for you to "get" it....

Let's regroup here my friend and take stock of what is your reality.

You have a still-fogged-out WW who is saying one thing to you and acting in quite another.

You have an OM making contact with your wife.

Its time to hop in to the car and go visit this OM and let him know its over. Grab one of your largest buddies to ride shotgun and time to let this guy know what's yours.

Then, when you get home, you tell your wife that her last contact was in fact, her LAST contact. Should you learn about ANY CONTACT OF ANY NATURE that HH is gonzo. The locks will be changed and her life with you as she knows it is over.

You are coming off as weak when this is a time to let her know you are not weak, you are making the rules if she wants to continue to be married. A cheating wife makes a man look like less a man, I know too well. Laying down the law does the opposite. Setting guidelines for her (and you) is a manly thing.

You have a diseased woman in your midst. One who is more interested in destroying many peoples lives to satisfy a selfish need. A firm hand is needed.

and now shes on board with the mb program whereas before she wasn't. im not going to punish her if shes showing true remorse and offering just compensation now.

OK. Good luck.

HH,

Your wife is not on board with MB. She is GASLIGHTING. If you haven't done it already, take a look at the false recovery thread of lessons learned.

AM

Hopeful_Hubby,

BTW is something else going on here? Did you get a DNA test for your twins? It really feels like your W is still mentally wayward.

God Bless
Gamma

First of all, you have already told us this again and again from the beginning of this thread that there is no further contact and you two just need move to the rebuilding part, etc. What would be more helpful is if you would answer our questions.

If she is serious about being "on board", please tell us your WW's EP/NC plan? I saw something about privatizing the blog and changing phone numbers but that doesn't cover what led to the two recent broken NCs (that you know of).




I would really appreciate your addressing this and also letting us know if OMW was told of the break in NC.

THIS. HH, a remorseful spouse DOES NOT EVER - EVER contact their affair partner.

Dude, it's become almost exepcted that certain forms of BH will put blinders on and fail to READ, much less internalize, what is written to them for their benefit. (Without getting too negative, let me preface the rest of this note by saying you are one of those unfortunate BHs.)

But, my friend, you may have set the standard for willful "blinders", as it's increasingly evident you do not even read or digest your OWN writings.

13 August, 2:35pm
The night after holding my hand, I went to hold her's the next night and she wouldn't let me. This set me off as I felt totally confused and rejected. The mixed signals killed me. I guess she had read a page I'd written when I was pissed off at the POSOM. She said the anger distances her from me.

13 August, 2:53pm
...and now shes on board with the mb program whereas before she wasn't. im not going to punish her if shes showing true remorse and offering just compensation now.

In eighteen minutes, you went from righteous displeasure with her cavalier treatment of you and rejection of just compensation (and let's be fair: you were trying to hold her hand, not write additiional chapters to the Kama Sutra!), to a weak-wristed, "Oh, but she's trying sooooooo hard!"

In your misguided zeal to tell my colleagues that they are in error, you've exposed your own craven, pathetic, conflict-avoiding obsequiesness to WW.

In your current state, you are unhelpable. WW has her stiletto heel tamped down on your man-pebbles, waiting to hear the "pop"!

Here you go.
False Recovery
False Recovery: voices of experience

Something that I have learned through this process called recovery is that true love is created through GIVING of oneself the other their emotional needs. Receiving is important, but it's the giving that creates a love that lasts.

Have you read this?
The Giver and Taker

Very familiar with it.

You do understand that by doing for someone, your feeling of elevated affection is actually a reflection of joint satisfaction of some mix of your ENs of admiration, appreciation, and worthiness.

(Don't get me wrong: I'm not downplaying the importance or desirability of you actions. I'm only positioning them in the proper setting.)

You do something fine or loving for someone else. Even if they do not adequately express their thanks (and especially if they do) you know that such appreciation for your action is established. You enjoy experiencing that reflection, and your LB$ increases. You also know you had the ability to effect an increase in benefit to someone/something through your own initiative and actions, and get a shot of "worthiness" (aka: self-esteem), which again deposits LB units.

We all have these impulses and subsequent reactions. Onlywhen it becomes excessive, usually resulting in a "KISA complex", does it raise concerns.

What you have described is not recovery, but unconditional love, which is a disaster to marriages. Romantic love is created by having YOUR needs met. That is how people fall in love. You don't fall in love with someone just because you meet their needs. That is not how it works.

Meeting someone's needs without reciprocity only creates resentment on the part of the giver. It also leads to a marriage characterized by neglect and abuse.

Have you read these?

What's Wrong with Unconditional Love #1
What's Wrong with Unconditional Love #2

I guess my thoughts are their is something "greater" than romantic live. Something more that envelopes romantic love but transcends it. Romantic love is a predecessor to true love. I think the principles at MB help architect a great marriage but ultimately the foundation goes deeper than anything me or my spouse can do on our merits alone. If I rely solely on us as fallen mortals we'll fail again. I gotta do like it all depends on me and pray like it all depends on Him. Marriage is sacred and all I can control is my relationship with her and my relationship with God. MB gives me the tools to assist my marriage relationship but the source of strength comes from divinity.

Ps what does "kisa" stand for?

I think thats really cute, but what holds marriages together is romantic love. THAT is the foundation of a great marriage. People who are in love don't get divorced. There is nothing greater that "transcends" romantic love that will hold your marriage together. Nothing. Not committment, not unconditional love, nothing. Romantic love comes from GOD and if you want to hold your marriage together you will take the steps to ensure your marriage has it.

If you don't have it, you are likely to end up divorced.


The "strength" to do what exactly? God will not hold your marriage together against your will or your wife's. You have to use these tools to do that.

I guess my thoughts are their is something "greater" than romantic live.

Sure, off the top of my uneducated brain I can name two forms of love that might supersede a strong "romantic" love linking a husband and wife.

Secularly: It may well be that parental love might have a stronger call on one's devotion, although it would be difficult to isolate the variables. Suppose, however, a well-matched second-married couple encountered a situation in which one spouse's child needed special care that other spouse resented giving. The love of child might well trump the marital love between them, causing a rupture.

Sacredly: I have heard it said that not only is the Almighty's love for us the utmost expression possible, but there are cases in which a person's love for the Almighty exceeds the love possible for any other human, spouses included. (There are saints whose histories include just such abandonment.)

Well, those two cases being offered, HH, unless you are thinking of adopting your current wife, or aspiring to Canonization, you might better be satisfied with creating the strongest "romantic" love with her that can be envisioned. And that, my friend, is best achieved through the principles and practices of the program.

But, and this I can say with full conviction:
KISA = Knight In Shining Armor

p.s. romantic love is "true" love. Very true!

I guess we're squabbling over semantics because I don't disagree with you in practice. I define romantic love as the infatuation stage that last 24-36 months that every long term relationship goes through. That's the love is blind stage. True love can encompass that love but its deeper more genuine live that loves with eyes wide open. This live speaks the love language of the other even when they don't feel like it. This love is greater than the counterfeit that's based on lies and deceit that affairs selfishly indulge in. True love is more give oriented without sacrificing self. When both marriage partners work towards this goal a marriage is at its pinnacle state in earth.

You believe all this because you don't understand how romantic love is created. If you knew anything about Marriage Bulders you would understand that the program creates romantic love that does not fade. Couples stay married due to romantic love, not because of some "love language" or even because of a commitment. Romantic love is "REAL LOVE." It is a genuine, "deep" love that sustains marriages.

Dr. H has been ultra-clear in his definitions of romantic love, etc. Why redefine terms?; it invites semantic confusion. Romantic love is not infatuation. A cursory reading of "His Needs, Her Needs" demonstrates that. We need to stay consistent with the MB concepts and terminology, and not confuse the discussion with other stuff.

My wife got turned off by the MB program during the online seminar because she doesn't believe SF is an emotional need and mist certainly shouldn't be my top need and refuses to go back to it right now because she felt DR. H was saying to "fake it til you make it" regarding SF.

My wife got turned off by the MB program during the online seminar because she doesn't believe SF is an emotional need...

Oh, okay. My wife got turned off by her astronomy course because she doesn't believe the planets orbit the sun. She dropped out. That doesn't mean we reject Copernicus and Galileo, and redefine the Laws of Physics, just to suit her!

The people who have applied this program to this marriage, and have also maintained infatuation in their marriage because of the proper application of this program would disagree.

That's all fine but I cant sell her on it right now.

Sometimes I wonder when I hear something like this if the problem is not so much about not believing SF is an emotional need as it is resistance to the idea that that need should be or has to be met regardless of the relational environment; that because it's a need, the other is obligated to fill it, and perhaps it's that perceived hint of force she's repulsed by. Has she read "Question of the Ages" article? If not, it might help persuade her to give MB a chance, especially if you show her that you understand and agree with it as well.

That's all fine but I cant sell her on it right now.

Uhh, selling her is not vital. You're the FBS; she doesn't get a vote! Remind her you still have the unplayed "Get Out of Marriage Free" card. Try "selling" her on the alternative she's facing. Or...continue to let the wayward steer the recovery bus, badly, which has been going on quite a while, yes?

Today's show may be of benefit to you. It doesn't seem you two have the no contact, EPs, and transparency in place. If they aren't, it's a deal breaker. In today's show, Dr. Harley was telling the WW that she had to close her love bank to all men except her husband, then told the husband how he could help her open her bank to him.

I'm curious to learn more about this. Is their a psych term to describe this construct? I believe one spouse has the power to prime the pump in the relationship and its working...too slowly but working nonetheless. Thanks

HH-I think many of us are finding you and your marriage travails exasperating. Your wife, as described by you, has no doubt found this a while back.

As has been said to you too many times in the past, a clear, no nonsense plan to recovery must be created and shared with your wife. A great marriage is cultivated from the cesspool you are still mired in when both enthousiatically work that plan.

When you are still figuring out how to please her so she'll "please you" at this late stage, you need a new plan.

You see, her malaise and unhappiness is a result of a very little change after dday. Perhaps the only difference is she isnt sleeping with the other guy.

The successful adherents to MB took the opportunity to make collosal changes in ours lives. We gave our spouses a chance to show us they are forever committed to us. These changes are up to you to layout. Many guys, like you and I, need more bedroom action. Some want a cleaner house, maybe dinner on the table once in a while, financial support, and etc from their wives on top of the standard NC and transparency things.

How long are you going to stab at the windmills of "priming her love pump" to make her love you more? At this late stage, she has shown little inclination to meet your needs.

HH, the level of your denial is probably the biggest problem right now.

You have been making excuses for your WW's fogginess and have repeatedly emphatically stated the A "is over". SugarCane pointed this out on the first page of this thread -- when you admitted you found contact w/n the last two weeks. Then you did the same thing months later here in this thread, tried to skim over the fact that found recent broken NC again.

You have ignored questions about whether the OM's BW was informed and how it was that your WW was able to break contact if you have implemented EPs and a keylogger on her computer.

You have given several reason for her refusal to meet your ENs (such as feeling severe guilt over the A and now it is due to her being anti-MB when you just a few months ago said she was on board with MB????) and completely denied it would have anything to do with there still being C.

It is impossible to begin to fix the problem when you are in complete denial of what the problem is and just want to sweep the A under the rug. I would suggest you go back to the beginning of the thread and re-read all the advice you have already ignored.

Well at this point I may have convinced my wife to change marriage counselors. She's been going to IC for weeks. To me its just seems to be a validation gripe session. She wants to keep going because it helps her. But she wants to do couple counseling. Im weary of this counselor. Is there a way to find MB centric counselors. I read the article already. Wondering if there is a database by city locator thing at all?

Can you afford the MB counseling?

Have you seen this?
How to Find a Good Marriage Counselor

You deserve respect for exhausting all avenues to save your marriage, but you have not progressed a bit since May. She f-ed up, but you are walking on eggshells.

If she has read the materials here, she would not need a counselor of any type. This is a way to pacify you without giving you anything in return. What is she looking to accomplish at a marriage counselor? There's no upside to it for you. A reason for her cheating? We know that already. It will be a chance for her to transfer some blame to you. You have taken too much sh-- for her infidelity already. The affair is in the past.

MB is about moving forward and what she'll do to make you whole and what you'll do make her whole. You have needs that she has no desire to satisfy. A person interested in saving their marriage would have met you somewhere in the middle of what you are asking for and what your wife is giving you. (Never mind enthousisatically meeting your every sexual whim.) Your SF (as in FRUSTRATION) is evident in nearly every post.

We are the same. We asked for the same things for our recovery. Your wife is failing terribly at it.

You have a dynamic in that home that is in no way worth the heartache she caused.

Personally, I'd be gone. Life is way too short. Sorry.

PS. It might just take that to make her understand.

Okay, I'm here again. It's been awhile. But I'm ready to give this another whirlwind. A LOT, I mean A LOT has happened in the past 8 months.

The Good:
1) I passed my licensure exam so I am now officially a doctor. I got my license last month and just started working. This is a huge burden lifted from our family's shoulders. I am now able to produce a comfortable salary for our family, work towards getting us out of the debt we accumulated this past year as I had to work a $15 an hour job while supporting a family of 5 by myself. So it's a relief all away around. My wife has stated multiple times how proud of me she is of this facet. I'd never tell this to her face, but I failed those exams for a few reasons, the primary one being going through the discovery of her affair and her imminent threats of divorce. THe other being the fact that she went into pre-term labor with our twins a week before I took the exam. In short, whenever there a major examination for me it seemed to be a MAJOR life event timed right there with it. But anyways, I finally passed it after having had to wait a year to re-take it. We're all extremely excited. I feel like I can finally work at providing the Financial Support need that my wife(and children) have.
2) We moved to another state. Glory Halleujuah. We're just two short steps away from basically having severed off our past location. We've had our home on the market for 4-5 weeks now. And hopefully we'll get an offer soon so we can cut ties with that place. And I'm about to change our phone numbers to our new state's numbers next week when we switch cell phone carriers. I'm excited to be at my new job, in a new state, away from that utter waste of a human life. My daughter started kindergarten and the schools here are absolutely phenomenal.
3) My wife and I have made a lot of progress overall. We're still not where I want us to be or think where we should be, but when I step back and think about where we are today as a couple, as a family, I see how far we've come and it's a beautiful thing, though things still aren't perfect, far from it, which I'll get into later.
4) After I passed my test I had a good 6 weeks off where I was home every day and able to meet most of my wife's needs most of the time.

The Bad:
My job has recently required me to be out of town M-F each week for the past two weeks and the next two weeks. It's a temporary thing, but it's been hard for us all. We text and call frequently to stay in touch.

Our sex life is still in the toilet. It's an extremely important aspect of marriage to me. My wife and I have hashed it out. We've had more sex in the past 6 months than we did the previous year and half, but the frequency and fulfillment leaves a lot left to be desired for me(Maybe 10 times in the past 6 months). My wife believes that I have sexually abused her in the beginning years of our marriage, and that being sexually active with me is extremely raw and painful for her. She's stated to me that she hates kissing me, she has a hard time touching me and when we're sexual it's emotionally painful for her. She states that she knows she capable of being sexually aroused, but doesn't believe she's capable of it with me. She's mentally thrown in the towel there. We started the marriage builders program together last year but when she read a part that she felt Violated her choice she quit. She was appalled that Dr. Harley suggests, "fake it til you make it" regarding sex. I keep trying to explain to her that's not what he says, but she won't have anything to do with it. She's completely put off by it. I asked her the other night if our sexual issues were resolved what would be her major hangup in our marriage? She said that it's pretty much the sexual issues. I'm lost as to how to proceed because I don't know how to get her to buy into the MB program. She's totally shut off to it. She feels that if she reads her scriptures, and is more obedient to God's will that it will solve all the problems in our marriage(I think that's a necessary start and vital individually but not comprehensive). I think God expects us to do for ourselves what we're capable of doing and he fills in the gaps where needed according to His Will.

The Ugly:
No-contact was broken twice in the past 6 weeks. The day before we moved, my wife went to a chiropractic appt. and lo and behold [censored] just 'happened' to be there too. She got adjusted, and they had a two hour conversation there. She told me about it later that day and why she was gone for so long. I was livid but I was literally in the middle of packing up our truck, cleaning our house and getting my family the hell away from that [censored]. I was FURIOUS, but literally had no time to deal with the situation. The last no-contact breach happened on my wife's birthday. He sent her a FB greeting. The following week I went out of town for my training and they talked for several hours into the middle of the night 'just catching up' on each other's lives, kids, etc. That weekend I had an inkling to check the phone logs just randomly and that's when I discovered the phone calls. The [censored] borrowed a friends phone to call our new home number that he'd received after using his friends fb account to acquire the number after messaging my wife. I immediately called douchebags wife and told her what was up. She was appreciative of the info and stated that she felt like the past month or so had been really rough(ever since their 'chance' encounter at the chiropractor which she had no idea about. Since then she's changed her email and fb passwords (after we gave each other all our passwords last year) and won't give them up because she doesn't want me 'spying' on her and sorting through everything in a hotel room. She says the problem is WITHIN her, and that she needed fixing to overcome her compulsion to contact him. I told her I want her to close her FB account. She won't do it. I said at least make a JOINT account WITH me then so that way their is really no way to breach no contact via FB without me knowing. She said she'd think about it and that's where we're at.

Here's the thing. Our marriage is as good as it's been for the past 2 years. These are major setbacks. I want to roll with the program but she's entirely against it. She wants to work it out on her terms and in her way. Shes been upset with me because I 'quit' counseling after a year of going. I thought it was stupid and not very helpful. I felt like the counselor had a major tilt towards 'women's rights' and said a lot of destructive advice like if only I had related better to my wife and truly 'listened' to her then we would be emotionally connected, like my wife having an affair was my fault. I felt like I was the one that cheated on my wife the bulk of the time. She stated that there are no 'shoulds' in marriage which I completely BALKED at and she stated I was flat wrong when I said love is more than just a feeling, it's a decision, it's a choice. Choices lead feelings. She told me essentially that it's the opposite. So after month of going I was done with all the psychobabble. My wife said she felt it was helping and that especially in her individual sessions they were working on how she can right now and going forward improve our sexual relationship and overcome her sexual aversion that she has with me. Well, the counselor situation is moot now that we moved and she feels we need to enter counseling somewhere else. She still feels disconnected with me emotionally(breaking no-contact does that) and that if things don't improve she's tempted to divorce me over it. But she's has stayed and is willing to stay because of our three kids. She STILL believes I have a problem(she calls it a sex addiction - basically because I think a healthy sex-life involves sexual encounters 2-3 times a week minimum in more ways than just laying there like a bump on a bed) and that my top two needs of sexual fulfillment and attractiveness are superficial and not that important. She says she can't possibly see the benefits of a program that places sex and beauty as the most important aspects of marriage.

Here's my decision though, I will not leave because I will not allow myself to become a part-time father to my children on my watch. My kids need me, I need them. They need me to love their mother, to show them what a loving marriage looks like. I can only focus on me and my efforts and I am. So at this point I'm just dumbfounded on where to go, how to begin yet again. All the generic read this, or talk to the coaching or do the programs won't work. She sees MB and she's through. I can't even get her to read any other marriage books. She feels that she's 'TRYING' hard on our marriage. I've read dozens of marriage books over the past year and half. I've met her emotional needs the majority of the time like a super hero. I've tried to work the program as best I can incognito and it's helped some, but it's not getting the results I feel it should because I know it takes two to tango eventually.

I'm at the fork in the road that ultimately places me at odds with having a fulfilling marriage in the near future and being a father to my children. I'm doing my part as a husband as best I know how and that I know is the ultimate test of being a great father. We're not 'miserable'. We get along pretty well most of the time. But the 'spark' she needs is missing and she doesn't know how to get it back....ahem...but if I suggest the program that is most likely to bring it back, she won's. She's usually pretty good at meeting most of my other needs but the two that she refuses to meet are sexual fulfillment and marita/(familial) security. She stated divorce will always be an option for her in our marriage.

I get that the formula to recover our marriage is: 1) Firm and steadfast no contact + 2) Creating a thriving marital environment = Reconciliation.

There is only so much I can do. I don't know what else to do, say or how to motivate her. Whenever a suggestion comes from me on how to proceed it's met with resistance. I don't even know what I am asking for here. I don't know how to reach my wife in a meaningful way that will put us on a path that actually leads to a mutually fulfilling marriage. She thinks POJA is a pipe dream and not founded in reality. So I just know even know where to begin. It's frustating, but it's a sacrifice I WILL make for my children and realistically for my wife as well. I don't believe in Divorce except for the most rare of circumstances. It's legal fiction that was invented by men in their vain pride, sin and hard-heartedness.

I'm choosing to make the most of the situation and to buy yet more time because ultimately my wife does want the same thing as me, she's just feeling hopeless on achieving it with me.

So, Doc...

How often would you recommend that one of your patients take a medication that they have a severe allergy to?

Your WW had repeated NC breaks last year too.

I (and others) tried to post to you several times about how SERIOUS the lack of EPs in this situation are. You just brushed us off telling us the A was over.

You have been in a false recovery all of this time, and as long as your WW refuses to implement appropriate EPs, this A will continue.

Do you realize that?

She won't give you the passwords because the affair is back ON.

You understand this, right?

Traveling job was discussed earlier. In a healthy marriage this would be dangerous. In a M with a still foggy wayward = disaster.

You have never accomplished Step #1 of this program, HH.

NC for life and implementation of EPs (including no overnights apart) to make resumption of A (or start of another affair) almost impossible.

Your WW not wanting to have SF and not wanting POJA or work on MB is very normal for a wayward who has on again off again contact with OM.

Yup you're right. I've discussed multiple EP's. Changing phone numbers. We just moved. online passwords. etc etc etc.

She knows what I expect. She knows I'm watching. She's willing to 'work' on our marriage on her terms and what she views as normal, since my request are 'demanding'. I can't "make her give up facebook or giver up her passwords".

She simply will only look to our church and trusted family and friends for help and her counselor that told her more what she wanted to hear rather than what she needed to hear.

False recovery is a way of life for you. That is not anything close to Marriage Builders. Your wife will accept anything other than a marriage with you.

What is your plan?

You have a fogged out enabled wayward who refuses to end the affair and refuses to be transparent = no progress in R as you have seen.

How long will you live like this?

Dude, dual no contact breeches AND your new ability to support those kids in a much better level means its time to give her what she wants and file for divorce first based on infidelity.

Factor in the complete disregard your security, happiness, and emotional wellbeing, I'd be gonzo. You tried.

**edit**

PS. You going away for those trips is not a good idea. She's not to be trusted.

Evident that your WW still sees the OM as #1 and you as her beta provider.

She will not do marriage builders because she has not and will not end her affair.

You should call the Harleys. They can advise you on how to get WW on board with MB. Also this marriage may not be recoverable.

Your WW may not come out of her fog until you file for divorce.

Did you expose this affair?

If yes, who did you expose to?

To an extent I feel this is true and that bothers me, hurts me and ultimate is a big reason our marriage isn't recovering.

True, but it's not just that. She so close-minded to the idea of 'fake it to you make'(thought that's not exactly what Dr. Harley is saying) though most books/counselors on marriage relate a similar idea of DO the actions of love, and your feelings of love with return.

Noted, but I am 100% certain my marriage is recoverable. Based on the differences i see and feel from last year to this year, our three beautiful children and my faith in God and my wife. i know this isn't over.

That will never happen.

Oh yeah, parents, my sister, a few close friends, OMW and kids know, clergy of our church know, OMW's got the whole rumor mill going and exposed it to hundreds of people within our previous church community.

See above